Why Aren’t We As Universally Outraged Over Sandra Bland’s Death As We Are Over Cecil The lion?

[WillyT]

Why aren’t we as universally outraged over Sandra Bland’s death as we are over Cecil the lion?
David Ferguson - RawStory
29 Jul 2015 at 10:47 ET


Sandra Bland (Facebook)

<snip>

It is a credit to humanity that we can be unified in outrage at the death of an innocent creature like Cecil the lion, the 13-year-old protected Zimbabwean lion who was illegally poached by wealthy midwestern dentist Walter Palmer last week. However, one has to wonder why we cannot similarly come together to condemn the deaths of women of color who die in police custody like Sandra Bland.

The loss of a rare and beautiful creature like Cecil has stirred outrage from around the world. The only controversy seems to be which continent gets to prosecute Palmer first. While a few mush-brained “Libertarian” types have come down on Palmer’s side, the bulk of the reaction to his crimes — which include bribing of wildlife officials — has been negative.

Not so the death of Sandra Bland, which has seen major network news anchors asserting that she could have used her lit cigarette as a weapon against the police. Others have argued that Bland only had her own “arrogance” to blame for the fact that she ended up dead in a prison cell over an improper lane change.

Or what about the other women of color who have died in police custody over the last two weeks?

In Alabama, 18-year-old Kindra Chapman was found dead in her cell on July 14, just hours after she had been booked into the Homewood City Jail. Officials say she hanged herself with a bed sheet. Jefferson County District Attorney Brandon Falls released a statement this week that said, “At this time, I have seen no evidence of any criminal wrongdoing in the arrest and detention of Kindra Chapman, and I believe that her death is the result of a suicide.”

Mount Vernon, Maryland resident Raynetta Turner, 43, was arrested on a shoplifting charge Saturday and was found dead in her cell on Monday. She told arresting officers that she had medical issues. She was taken to a hospital and examined, then released back into police custody on Sunday night. When police came to take the mother of 8 before the judge at 2 p.m. on Monday, she was found lying on her side in her cell, unresponsive. She was pronounced dead by paramedics.

“All I know is my wife is dead and no one is saying anything,” said her husband Herman Turner to WABC-TV.

In Cleveland, Ohio, 37-year-old Ralkina Jones was arrested on Friday night after a domestic dispute. Cleveland Heights Jail officials found her dead in her cell on Sunday morning, July 26. Jones’ sister Renee Ashford told Cleveland.com, “One thing I can say about my sister is that she would want us to find out why, just why, like you can’t tell me one minute I see my sister and then the next day she’s dead.”

On Wednesday, July 22, South Carolina prison officials found 50-year-old Joyce Curnell unresponsive in her cell. Charleston County Sheriff’s officers apprehended Curnell on a bench warrant over a shoplifting charge and she was booked into the Sheriff Al Cannon Detention Center on July 21. Her cause of death has yet to be determined...

<snip>

More: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/why-arent-we-as-universally-outraged-over-sandra-blands-death-as-we-are-over-cecil-the-lion/

Say their names.

[Downwinder]

1. Why do we care more about Cops killing pets,

than Cops killing people?

[roguevalley]

89. what the hell? how do you know we aren't? I hate these posts.

[awoke_in_2003]

94. I think Downwinder may

have been using the collective "we", as the writer of the story in the OP was, and not the DU "we". I could be wrong, though

[LiberalElite]

97. Yes! +1,000 -

they're not mutually exclusive except in the societal attitude. If you care about animals you can't possibly care about people.

[whathehell]

143. You rang?

I agree, Roque...As I said downthread, I love animals, but I am certainly

more disturbed by the death of a young, innocent human being.

[AllFieldsRequired]

2. Because in America white people fear black people and this gives the white people

an excuse to make up all kinds of reasons why this black person or that black person needed shooting.

Or if not needed shooting, it is usually "well if she had just put the cigarette out" etc...

Universal outrage at the killing of black people would require universal acceptance that we are all equal.

[JDPriestly]

51. But if you are right, and in America, white people fear black people, why did the majority

of Americans including many, many white people, vote for a Black president, not once but twice.

It is just as much a mistake to generalize about all white Americans as it is to generalize about all Black Americans.

It is a vocal and powerful minority of white Americans who hate or fear Black people. That is something that we all need to agree on.

Because it is a slap in the face of the many, many white people who have supported equal rights and who now live and work with Black people as equals to say that "white people" do this or feel that toward Black people.

Let's state the problem for what it is. White and black people but especially white people are responsible for making sure that as many white people as possible understand that Black people are their equals.

White people who view Black people as equals need to take stronger stands and speak out more. But it is not helpful when Black people just assume that white people are the enemy. It isn't true, and it divides society in just the way that those who actually do hate or fear Black people want it divided.

So when Black or white people overgeneralize about white hate or fear of Black people, they are actually serving the cause of racism.

I hope you won't be offended by my pointing out this problem in the reasoning and your use of language. I think you probably agree with me. It is a small point of semantics. But it is important because overgeneralizing makes it harder for white people to place themselves on the side of equality. And it is important for white people to place themselves on the side of equality because only white people can change the situation. Black people can make everyone more aware of the resistance of our society to real equality, but only white people who are racists can change their own hearts and minds.

I do not mean this personally about you or your post. I mean this more generally about the whole race conversation.

[awoke_in_2003]

95. The news is geared for the

Vocal and powerful minority of white Americans

[JDPriestly]

126. Very true. I'm white and vocal (not particularly powerful), but I too feel left out from the

perspective of the news because it is aimed to please and I do mean to please in the sense of flatter a "vocal and powerful minority of white Americans." So true.

[ronnie624]

112. There is a predominating cultural bias against African Americans in the US,

and it is largely a result of the attitudes of white people. Anonymous polling and other studies demonstrate this conclusively. Fear among the white population, of black males in particular, is definitely a factor.

[JDPriestly]

127. You are right.

My point is that the white population is not homogeneous in this regard. The challenge for Black Lives Matter and other similar groups including the NAACP and other established organizations is to remember that lots of white people side with them and to differentiate between racists and non-racists of varying degrees of separation from racism among white people. It's hard because of course, "all white people kind of look alike."

But we aren't alike anymore than all Black people are alike. But the racists are very loud and even dangerous.

In your experience, (and I am asking this as a question out of interest and not out of snark), do you think that Black people are afraid of white people?

[Stellar]

116. "Why did the majority of Americans including many, many white people,

vote for a Black president, not once but twice".

Maybe your question should have been... why did the majority of Black people, Brown people, Asian people and a large portion of young Whites voted for Obama twice. That was his demographic, his coalition. The same coalition that they say that Hillary and Bernie need to win the election.

http://www.thewire.com/politics/2012/11/types-people-who-voted-obama/58794/


And of course, you can't forget the media did their best to demonize Obama.

[whathehell]

134. "a large portion of young whites"?

My husband and I are white and are ages 64 and 65. I don't know how 'representative' we were

when we voted for PBO four times, including the primaries, but it's important to realize

that traditionally, young people of all races comprise a VERY small part of election voters,

so I'm guessing we weren't part of a tiny minority of white people.

[Stellar]

139. Does it say anything about us old people in that link I posted.

LOL, I'll have to read about it later. I don't recall...but, I'll check back.

[whathehell]

142. Actually, it just says "young people"

it doesn't list the race.

They do list 39% of whites voting for Obama in 2012. I've heard 41 percent before

but I guess it's not a big difference.

[lovelydestruction]

118. it's tough to have a real conversation

Because half think talking about it is "stirring things up". I am amazed at the folks who think everything was just fine until, blah blah blah, whoever they blame for whatever.
Personally, I don't consider myself predjudiced, until I realize that I live in a world where people are routinely judged by the color of their skin, and the shape of their skin, a nagging undercurrent of distain which can only be muted somewhat by money or our own compassion. The nagging undercurrent is still there.
Its only been a little over 150 years since we had a big fight over it, and we're just now taking the losing sides flag down. Because what, we didn't want to hurt their feelings?
Of course we're all affected and of course more progress needs to be made. We're at another hard part in US history. We can make it, maybe.

[maddiemom]

124. Well said!

[YoungDemCA]

133. So voting for Obama automatically gives one a "pass"?

I hope that's not what you mean.

For what it's worth, the majority of white voters DID NOT vote for Obama. Both times. The second time, about 60 percent of white voters voted for Romney. And yet, Obama still won.

We still have a long way to go.

[JDPriestly]

149. Do you think the 60% of white voters who voted for Romney voted for economic reasons,

because they were unthinking Reagan fans or because they were racists?

Because if 60% of whites in America, or even 40% voted against Obama for racist reasons, we are in big trouble as a country.

Why?

Because California is showing the way. Whites are if a majority certainly barely a majority (and I don't think we are any more a majority) in California. The tables are turning. We are looking at a huge change in this country over the next 15 years as the white majority becomes a minority.

In California, this has not been a problem. Lots of intermarriage. We have lots of great Hispanic politicians and professionals and our society is thriving probably more than in some other more racially divided parts of the country. Of course, racists don't want that news to get out.

So, your thoughts on this if you wish?

[DFL_Wellstone_dems]

111. it could also be...

That human beings are a pox on the earth and dogs and cats and woodchucks have none of the collective karmic guilt of the species that is knowingly destroying the parts of the planet that sustains life for every living thing that doesn't live on one of the deep ocean hydrothermal vents.

Why is Sandra Blands life worth more than the thousands of Muslim civilians that have been killed by American air, drone, and cruise missile strikes?

Or the millions of people who are suffering in north Africa and in south and central america because of American corporations that are stealing their natural resources and dumping the toxic waste byproducts in their drinking water.

Or the asian slaves that work for Apple and Nike that have their families punished because they killed themselves to escape their treatment.

It's because nobody cares about the people who make their lives of privilege possible. It's hard to see the people you're standing on, but lions are cool.

[Jake Stern]

137. ^^^ This

[ronnie624]

154. Good post.

Very well said.

[tularetom]

3. I can only speak for myself

But I'm every bit as outraged.

I think that is a cheap shot.

[Vinca]

17. I agree with you and you said it better than I could.

[Happyhippychick]

20. I agree too. And it really annoys me when people are taking on an issue and someone chimes in with

"well what about __________?"

TWO.SEPARATE.ISSUES.

[Triana]

21. +1 n/t

[villager]

26. Exactly. And frankly, both killings exist on the same continuum, as part of the same general...

soul-lessness, when everything -- when beings -- are turned into a "commodity," and people are turned into "others..."

[hunter]

56. A continuum, yes...

... and I think for many people police killings push them past the point of speaking, for three reasons.

1) The horror

2) Their unwillingness to face the darkest aspects of U.S. culture

3) Their fear of discovering their family, friends, or coworkers are the very worst sort of racists when they bring up the subject.

Talking about a lion and a wealthy trophy hunter is a safer topic of outrage.

[villager]

60. Also good points. Plus, it's harder to confront the police directly

(Not that that doesn't have to be done, at some point).

But you can leave a "coward" sign outside a closed dentist's office. It's a lot harder to do that at a Police Station. At least not without the state arresting or fining you, yourself.

[cwydro]

30. I know.

Most of us can handle more than one thought (or outrage) at a time.

[maddiemom]

125. YES!

[el_bryanto]

41. I sort of agree; in that it's not really a question for DU

As we are outraged by both; but when you look at America as whole - American society, than you do see more concern over the lion.

Bryant

[whathehell]

45. I love animals, but I'm certainly more outraged over

the needless death of a human being than I am over a lion.

[MissDeeds]

47. I agree

I can be outraged by more than one thing at a time.

[rock]

49. +1

I agree.

[SalviaBlue]

50. I agree. Both are outrageous. n/t

[awoke_in_2003]

96. The writer of the Rawstory article

is addressing America on the whole, not taking a shot at members of DU.

[WillyT]

99. Weird How That's Misunderstood...

[awoke_in_2003]

103. ...

back at you

[Chemisse]

104. I agree.

I am fairly sure the majority of people here on DU are outraged about both.

We have the capacity to be outraged about more than one thing at a time.

[840high]

140. +1

[snooper2]

4. because all evidence is looking at suicide right now

Bad idea to jump the shark on different cases before facts come out-

Cops fuck up, a lot-

Citizens do too-

[HFRN]

107. may be a jump to conclusion, but not a 'jump the shark'

you sure you know what 'jump the shark' means?

Jumping the shark
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Fonzie on water skis, in a scene from the Happy Days episode "Hollywood, Part Three of Three", after jumping over a shark

Jumping the shark is an idiom created by Jon Hein that was used to describe the moment in the evolution of a television show when it begins a decline in quality, signaled by a particular scene, episode, or aspect of a show in which the writers use some type of gimmick in an attempt to keep viewers' interest, which is taken as a sign of desperation, and is seen by viewers to be the point at which the show strayed irreparably from its original premise. The phrase is based on a scene from a fifth-season episode of the sitcom Happy Days when the character Fonzie jumps over a shark while on water-skis.[1][2][3]

The usage of "jump the shark" has subsequently broadened beyond television, indicating the moment when a brand, design, franchise or creative effort's evolution declines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumping_the_shark

[maddiemom]

128. You're technically correct.

BUT snooper2 has a point. This is a fitting application of the term...getting ahead of yourself. Hadn't ever thought of this before, but it fits.

[Nye Bevan]

5. Because there are many more racists than lion-haters? (nt)

[maddiemom]

131. Well...yeah. How many people in the world give a lot of thought to their opinion

on lions. Most have only admired them in zoos and don't live on the fringes of jungles where they roam. Not really an appropriate analogy. (BTW, I highly recommend the film, "The Ghost and the Darkness" to anyone who hasn't seen it). As an Agnostic, I've often wondered if there IS a GOD, would he/she not only want mankind to respect one another; wouldn't "lesser" creations deserve equal respect ? This gets a little tricky for human carnivores, of course. That aside, killing animals strictly as trophies has always seemed reprehensible to me.

[Fred Sanders]

6. Well said and presented. Not only that, but look at all the demands to Do Something and so it is being done.

White privilege extends to the mass media, as well.

[hollysmom]

7. I am pretty damned out raged by it.

Most people I talk to are outraged, one conservative friend started saying she would be alive if she "behaved" I ripped her a new one, and she got back into out outrage. I on't twitter about anything, so that is not me on twitter.

[Kurska]

8. Are you implying the cops murdered all of them?

There isn't nearly enough information to determine that. Half of them are just "this person died in police custody, ergo they were murdered by police".

I wouldn't discount the possibility of any of those, but you really should have actually evidence if you're going to make grand claims.

"Mount Vernon, Maryland resident Raynetta Turner, 43, was arrested on a shoplifting charge Saturday and was found dead in her cell on Monday. She told arresting officers that she had medical issues. She was taken to a hospital and examined, then released back into police custody on Sunday night. When police came to take the mother of 8 before the judge at 2 p.m. on Monday, she was found lying on her side in her cell, unresponsive. She was pronounced dead by paramedics. "

How is this murder? It sounds like the person had a medical issue, were taken to the hospital and they appeared fine and then they died later on. Granted, that isn't a lot of information, but if the article is going to imply they were murdered they should have more information.

Sandra Bland's death is suspicious as all hell and I think they are covering up some major (probably some idiot went cowboy on her, realized they messed up hard and faked a suicide), but there just isn't enough in that article to make a determination about anything of the other ones.

It is intellectually dishonest to imply they were all murders without more proof. Not every single person who dies in police custody was murdered by the cops.

[psychmommy]

153. the rate of black females commuting suicide

Is like 1 in 100,000. We have the lowest rate of suicide amongst all other demographics. So when I hear a black female committed suicide, it makes my spidey senses tingle. In a jail cell everything is metal and attached to the floor or wall. What would the purpose be for having a large trashcan in a jail cell?

[Kurska]

156. Missing the point did you even read my post?

It is clear I'm talking about all the other names listed and not her.

[maxrandb]

9. Ummm---I think we are!

It is possible to be outraged at two despicable things at the same time. In fact, I'm outraged at three, counting the T-bagging Massacre at the Lafayette movie theatre.

In fact, when you boil it all down, those three things, and just about every other heinous thing going on in our country, can be placed directly at the feet of the Rightwing Nutjobs and their enablers on hate-radio and hate-media.

- Cop who lost his mind with a minority women over a minor traffic infraction? - I bet he's a T-bagging asshat!
- Dentist who killed Cecil? - Gave the max to Mitt Romney, and I'm sure is a T-bagging asshat!
- Guy who killed 2 and injured 9 at the Lafayette theatre? - Only thing we are waiting on now is the release of his Free Republic ID, but it's obvious he is a T-bagging asshat!

[Logical]

10. Not paying attention? Nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

11. I'd say we are, actually.

The only people not outraged over what happened to Bland are probably the very same assclowns who don't think that dentist did anything wrong. Everyone else is pissed off.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

12. Cecil wasn't killed by police.

So there's some faint hope that he might get some justice.

[Hun Joro]

13. Can't we do both?

[Demit]

14. How are you measuring the relative outrage between the events? Just curious.

And do you mean here at DU, or in overall news coverage, or internet blog posts, or what?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

15. I don't agree with the premise of the article

But to the extent that a few people may care more about the lion than about Bland, I suspect racism.

The murdering dentist story is important, and I'd like to see the killer extradited to face justice. But in the end, cops killing innocent people outweighs the lion killer.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. That's always been the case, but...

I'm not sure why.

I think it has something to do with the general idea floating around that we are custodians of pets and other animals and so mistreating them is a crime of the highest order.

OTOH, there seems to be the idea that all humans, regardless of race or gender, have some ability to defend themselves, or at least make their own life decisions. Some might even be seen to deserve what they get. Whether or not this is true in any case is irrelevant-- it is a primal reaction.

Outrage seems to rise when it is defenseless humans, such as infants and the disabled, who have no say at all in their treatment are attacked.

Cecil is far from the first, or maybe even worst, canned hunt horror to make the news, but a lot of it is in the timing, too.

[hlthe2b]

18. I am... This is a false dichotomy and helps with neither case, to pit one issue over the other.

[kwolf68]

22. Thank you

End of thread.

[Myrina]

33. ^^ this ^^

n/t

[LittleBlue]

19. Google results: "Cecil the lion"---- 2.99m results

"Sandra Bland"----- 17.50m results

[Gidney N Cloyd]

23. We're "unified in outrage at the death of... Cecil the lion" ? Seems like a bit of a leap.

[JI7]

24. while individually many are outraged by both i do think society as a whole

Is not.

[LWolf]

25. I am outraged about both.

I'm not universal, though.

I think this is what BLM is saying; we need to join them, to make the national outrage universal.

[LiberalAndProud]

27. A visit to DU's conservative republican counterparts would answer your question.

Sandra Bland was "high as a kite" and Michael Brown was "justifiably put down". We are not universally outraged because in some minds, killing black people is always justified.

[ladjf]

28. I disagree with the OP's premise or those who same people are more

concerned about pets being killed by police. It's all terrible, but, the death of humans is the worst and most people agree.

[Cleita]

29. One of our County Board of supervisors said, when asked why we are

getting a new animal shelter that's going to cost million but there's little effort to provide housing for the poor and homeless, that the animal shelter had favor from the tax paying electorate and looking after the poor and homeless didn't. I mean we need both. Why can't we do both?

I think this falls in the same mentality. Most people seem to have more sympathy for animals than people.

[kwolf68]

34. I am tired of this argument

The Safari Club will love this argument. Anyday I expect a Facebook group to be started:

"People over Pets"....with the stated purpose to diminish the value of animal life under the auspices that we care for human life.

Compare the money spent on human welfare that with animals and you will find it's not even close. Further, if someone wishes to devote their life to saving turtles, whales, feral cats, whatever...who the hell am I to tell them that's not a worthy cause because a kid is starving in Bangladesh.

And maybe some people work to help animals, because those people are fucking fed up with...people. Animals don't steal from them, lie to them, use them, abuse them....

If issues involving the poor are your passion then go for it and trust that no one will belittle your cause because children are being murdered or sold into slave labor in some far-away lands.

[Cleita]

37. I don't see why we can't do both.

In my county I applaud the people who trap, release and feed the feral cats and the cast out roosters. The animal shelter is badly needed. However, we have enough homeless children in our county to fill a school. But those kids are mostly minorities so our PTB don't care. The homeless services we have are miles apart with little public transportation for them to get around. I think we can do both.

[Nay]

62. Tired, too. I spend time volunteering for environmental/wildlife projects over

involving myself with people projects not because I hate people, but simply because I find them exhausting to be around. Never mind the fact that me working to better the environment and save animals' habitats is, in the end, gonna SAVE the human race in the end if it's at all possible to do so!

Besides, where are all those churchy godly people who get the tax breaks because they do so many good works for people? With a church on nearly every corner, you'd think there'd be enough people helpers. You'd think we introverts wouldn't always be chided for personally preferring to help animals and the environment in general. Go harass the Republicans, who basically think black people (and uppity people in general) should be shot on sight just on general principles.

[uponit7771]

113. because the human lives take priority? There's no "both", my dog is part of the family

... but there's no way the dog goes before the wife and kids.

[pnwmom]

31. DU is. I don't know who the "we" in the article refers to. n/t

[still_one]

76. Exactly

[MH1]

79. Yes. I know I am outraged by both. nt.

[Myrina]

32. Some - many - of us are.

Hold onto that broad brush just a little bit tighter, there ...

[bermudat]

35. I am sad about the lion being hunted while on a preserve, still outraged about Sandra Bland

I wonder if the Eric Garner video instead showed a cop strangling a
golden retriever to death what the outcome would have been?
I'm guessing a million dog lovers in Times Square demanding
cop's job and criminal charges.

[GusBob]

36. I wish for justice for the lion and Ms Bland

I hope the cop and the dentist get brought to justice

my bigger hope--and it is a long time wish--is that people would get just as outraged over genocide, torture, rape, murder ,poverty ,famine, corruption, racism and exploitation on the continent of Africa as they would over one African lion

[Blue_Tires]

38. What's this "we" shit?

[DirkGently]

39. Because it's easier.

I think we know why we'd rather talk about the senseless killing of a lion than the senseless deaths of people -- there's not as much human socio-political bullsh*t getting in the way.

No one will jump in to say the lion was too sassy to the dentist / hunter. No one will make up weird conspiracy theories that maybe the lion was dead before it was even shot to confuse the issue. We will not have to wade through months and years of obfuscation and speculation to understand what really happened.

But the point is a good one. We shouldn't have any more trouble agreeing that people aren't supposed to die in jail for "failure to signal a lane change" than we do agreeing about "Cecil."

[sabrina 1]

40. Some of us are. We can be horrified by the entire culture of violence

that is undeniable in this country, against the most vulnerable people. Animals are also vulnerable to many of the same morons who have zero problem with our system of injustice.

[BeeBee]

42. What a ridiculous thing to say. Most of us can be concerned over more than one thing at a time. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

43. I've noticed this in my fb news feed.

Cop Block and various left-wing anarchist groups have been posting about the deaths of black women in jail, but that's about it. I see a lot more about Cecil the lion. Not to say that means anything, but it's a trend I've noticed in my tiny part of the world.

[Maedhros]

44. Americans, on average, view animals as "innocent"

but view victims of police brutality as "guilty", therefore deserving of what they get.

[Gore1FL]

46. I don't think anything good comes from rating tragic events against each other. n/t

[erpowers]

52. People Tend to Care More About Animals Than Other People

I did not read the full story, or the snippet you posted; I will read it later. I do not think this is about race or gender. People tend to care more about animals than people. Many supporters of Michael Vick pointed out that many of the people who were angry at Vick would not have been as angry if he had killed a person. There is probably more universal outrage about cecil the lion than the deaths of the two women in the Lafayette theater shooting. It is likely that Bill Cosby's career would have ended years ago if he had only hit a dog or some other animal. If he had done the same thing as I believe his name is Walter Palmer his career would have been definitely over.

[Bluenorthwest]

77. And yet Vick's career is not over, so your reasoning is deeply flawed.

Vick is a highly lauded sports hero, paid huge sums of money and cheered for by sports fans. What he did to dogs was of no concern at all to football culture. So your what if does not really fly.

[erpowers]

91. You Are Completely Wrong

After the dog fighting incident Michael Vick was no longer a lauded sports hero. Vick was also not cheered by sports fans. In fact he was the most hated athlete in America. What he did was of great concern to football culture. He was even suspended without pay. Later, he was dropped by is team and order to pay back $20 million of his signing bonus.

[restorefreedom]

115. wrong. people who care about animals

are actually more caring people overall, and they have more compassion for all life issues than the average person, including issues that affect people. they have done studies that support this.


i am sick of the "people care more about animals than people" meme. most people who care aboit animals care more about other people as well. the rubios and the cruz's claim to care about people but prefer to exploit people and animals.

[packman]

53. I agree - we should be

and someday I hope we are.

[Peregrine Took]

54. Oh, please! Do you have to go .....there??

Can't we be given credit for feeling both outrages? This one is more current but we still are furious about what happened to Sandra.

Give it a rest.

[abakan]

55. We have been outraged over the Sandra Bland death for over a week or longer.

We are still outraged over it. Nothing says we can't be outraged over something else too. Every day something is added to the national outrage, this does not make one more important than the other, or our outrage any less, it just means we have room for endless outrage in this country. We need it and sometimes we get overwhelmed by the number of ways man has to show his endless cruelty.

[azurnoir]

57. Good question

myself I'll chalk it up to the 'cause of the week' effect

[Lobo27]

58. I'm out outraged for both....

But truth be told, cops killing black people has become the norm in America. If you want a simple answer....

[Helen Borg]

59. Evidence this is the case?

[vkkv]

61. Because animals in general are thought of as being more innocent and inferior. n/t

[Dont call me Shirley]

63. Sandra Bland, Kindra Chapman, Raynette Turner, Ralkina Jones, Sarah Lee Circle Bear...

WTF! Why are they killing women of color in their jail cells?! Are they raping them first?! Then killing them to cover it up?!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

64. Animals are considered "innocent" while black people are guilty of being black.

[taught_me_patience]

65. Evidence (for now) appears to be a suicide

Hard to get really worked up over that.

[kelliekat44]

66. Most people think Cecil was white. nt

[wheniwasincongress]

69. He *was* blonde

[WillyT]

100. I Saw What You Did There...

[wheniwasincongress]

67. It's easier to digest. Many people don't want to chew on something harder.

It's sort of like missing/kidnapped people - the cute white children, the pretty white women - they will get the attention. If you're black or Native American for example, you're not going to get a lot of, if any, media attention.

Animals are cute and fluffy, they don't talk back. The politics of race or misogyny or poverty don't factor in to animals, you know, *boring, tedious stuff* like that. To be invested in Sandra Bland's case for example, you have to have a working, knowledge of the factors in her life and death (race, sex, police overreach and brutality, the law) and that takes effort. It's not enjoyable like watching animal videos. It's boring to lot of people, and they think, why even bother if it doesn't affect them? I think it's part of America's anti-intellectualism.

I don't think anyone here criticizing the heavier interest in Cecil over Sandra/misc believes the lion killing/story is unimportant, which is what some seem to be suggesting.

[WillyT]

102. + 1,000,000,000 - What You Said !!!

[okasha]

68. We are.

Do you have any further witless questions?

[WillyT]

92. Reading... Is Fundamental...

[roody]

70. We are.

[malokvale77]

71. I love you WillyT...

But I have to tell you, I am still outraged by things that happened in my youth and never saw justice. Truth be known I still hold rage from things that happened before I was born.

Because we are outraged by the latest outrageous thing does not mean we are less so by the one before or the one before that.

[WinkyDink]

72. IF this premise is true, here's WHY: We are inured to humans killing other humans. Cecil was close

to sui generis, but moreover, he was a symbol of something humans had done RIGHT. We had PROTECTED him FROM US.

Until money shouted its way to the evilness that ensued.

[bluedigger]

73. False dichotomy.

I'm pretty outraged over a lot of stuff.

[n2doc]

74. I hate so say it

Last edited Wed Jul 29, 2015, 08:41 PM - Edit history (1)

But the op sounds like Rubio. I guess their cause isn't getting enough attention for them.

People are outraged over both human and animal atrocities. The difference, I suppose, is that direct action is easier against a single person, not a police force.

We cannot allow any of these killings to be forgotten or forgiven until Justice is served.

[WillyT]

80. Seriously ??? - YOU !!! - You Know This Is An Article From RawStory, Right ??? - I DIDN'T WRITE IT !

Jesus... does ANYBODY read anything other that the Subject Line ???



I post articles I find interesting, thoughtful, provocative, or at least that should be put up for discussion.

Sometimes I have no firm opinion because I'm conflicted, so I rely on argument here to flesh things out.

And yeah... sometimes I post things to annoy the crap out of people.

THIS... is not one of those times.

I believe the Author's question still stands.

Sorry if you disagree.

[n2doc]

85. Sorry. I didn't get that

HOWEVER, my reply then is to the author. And my question to them is, who gets to be the grand poobah who decides which atrocities we should be outraged about and for how long? Atrocities happen every damn week, sometimes every damn day. Look at Manny having a post on how we should be more concerned about sanitation and clean water. Is that less of a cause to be outraged about simply because the victims die in silence in distant lands with no video or voicemail? Yes I am pissed about the violence the US authoritarians do to POC. I haven't forgotten Sandra Blake, or Treyvon Martin , or Eric Garner, or any of the others killed and never getting justice. But I will not criticize others' legitimate calls for justice in other atrocities. I have known many people who could not give a damn about human suffering but cared deeply about animals. They were not monsters for doing so.

So I will disagree in this case with the Author.

[WillyT]

86. And I Agree With Everything You Just Said...

The main reason I Posted it, was because I was only aware of three of the jailhouse suicides, and the bigger story shocked me.

Also... many commentators, Black and White, have noted that if a blonde white ten year old goes missing, it's a nationwide upheaval story... for a child of color from a poor background... not so much.

That's where my reasoning for posting came from.

I believe the author did it to get a rise, and start a discussion... and start a discussion he did.

[Bluenorthwest]

75. WillyT, you spent the Spring on DU preaching your 'civil rights don't really matter' sermons.

Black Lives Matter was already a movement. You were in fact speaking to counter their message, and that of LGBT activists like myself. Many of us have argued these points with you. It seems odd that you posture here as caring about petty old human rights when your recent work is more along these lines:

WillyT in March:
"IT IS THE MONEY... IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE MONEY...It has rarely been about anyone's civil rights."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026430750

The CAPS thing, it's like shouting at us that you think our rights don't matter. That was your whole agenda here for months, the very opposite of the agenda of Black Lives Matter.

How did your message that civil rights don't matter serve the women in your OP, WillyT? How do you see it?

[WillyT]

88. Well Bluenorthwest... If Anybody Know About Preaching, It's You... THIS... Speaks For Me...

IOW... THIS... Is What I "Preach"...

***************************************************************

Here are 7 things people who say they’re ‘fiscally conservative but socially liberal’ don’t understand
Greta Christina - RawStory
22 May 2015 at 09:34 ET

<snip>

Well, I’m conservative, but I’m not one of those racist, homophobic, dripping-with-hate Tea Party bigots! I’m pro-choice! I’m pro-same-sex-marriage! I’m not a racist! I just want lower taxes, and smaller government, and less government regulation of business. I’m fiscally conservative, and socially liberal.”

How many liberals and progressives have heard this? It’s ridiculously common. Hell, even David Koch of the Koch brothers has said, “I’m a conservative on economic matters and I’m a social liberal.”

And it’s wrong. W-R-O-N-G Wrong.

You can’t separate fiscal issues from social issues. They’re deeply intertwined. They affect each other. Economic issues often are social issues. And conservative fiscal policies do enormous social harm. That’s true even for the mildest, most generous version of “fiscal conservatism” — low taxes, small government, reduced regulation, a free market. These policies perpetuate human rights abuses. They make life harder for people who already have hard lives. Even if the people supporting these policies don’t intend this, the policies are racist, sexist, classist (obviously), ableist, homophobic, transphobic, and otherwise socially retrograde. In many ways, they do more harm than so-called “social policies” that are supposedly separate from economic ones. Here are seven reasons that “fiscally conservative, socially liberal” is nonsense.

1: Poverty, and the cycle of poverty. This is the big one. Poverty is a social issue. The cycle of poverty — the ways that poverty itself makes it harder to get out of poverty, the ways that poverty can be a permanent trap lasting for generations — is a social issue, and a human rights issue.

If you’re poor, there’s about a two in three chance...

<snip>

And at the end...

If you care about marginalized people — if you care about the oppression of women, LGBT people, disabled people, African Americans and Hispanics and other people of color — you need to do more than go to same-sex weddings and listen to hip-hop. You need to support economic policies that make marginalized people’s lives better. You need to oppose economic policies that perpetuate human rights abuses and make marginalized people’s lives suck.

And that means not being a fiscal conservative.

The Rest: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/here-are-7-things-people-who-say-theyre-fiscally-conservative-but-socially-liberal-dont-understand/

[Bluenorthwest]

141. But I'm not a fiscal conservative WillyT I'm a democratic socialist who lives like one. So what the

hell are you name calling for? What have I ever said on DU that would suggest I'm fiscally conservative? Nothing because I am not.
You throw trash because you can't respond to what was said to you. You have been preaching that civil rights don't really matter while Black Lives Matter has marched through America. I asked you how you think that served the women you are talking about today.
You did not have any answer to that, so you tried to fling some mud. So I ask again, how do you think your message that civil rights are unimportant serves the people in your OP today, or the Black Lives Matter movement in general? I saw those posts of yours as an attack on them and and other civil rights activists, you did all of those posts during the SCTOUS decision and the BLM protests. 'It's the money, not civil rights'. This was your message.
How do you think it served others, in this particular moment of history?

[pecwae]

78. I hate this kind of OP.

People are outraged over many things at one time. It's not either, or. Trash thread.

[Jamastiene]

81. I have enough compassion to be outraged by both and more.

It's all wrong.

[Texasgal]

82. I'm ouraged and saddened

by BOTH issues.

Some people can have more than ONE issue that they care deeply about. UGH.

[ozone_man]

83. We were.

Life moves on as do current events. We must save some outrage for future events. I have a lot of outrage and have to divvy it up to many issues. Nature, the earth dying, humanity, the inequity in our capitalistic system. Somewhere in there I find time to enjoy life and be in the moment.

[bravenak]

84. America hates black people.

[WillyT]

90. There's A Whole Lot Of Raw Nerves Exposed Here...

I had no idea.

[Joe the Revelator]

87. Because its possible to be outraged over more than one thing at a time

[davidn3600]

93. We and the media have been talking about Sandra Bland for two weeks

There is an investigation ongoing. There is probably going to be a grand jury.

What else are we are supposed to do right now? We can't even prove its a murder at this point from the evidence that's available to us. We have to wait to see what the investigation discovers.

I know people want a quick justice. But it simply doesn't work that way. I didn't witness what happened when Bland died, and neither did anyone here. No witness has come forward to say they have. So we don't know what happened with 100% certainty. We never met the cop that did the traffic stop. We never met any of the jail officers. We have so very little information here. Yet we are forming a theory based on past transgressions and biases and suggesting we know for sure exactly what happened.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

98. Agree totally WT ! It all makes me utterly sick. Did you see the video of the

girl who was in the next cell who talked to her? She said she didn't understand why they didn't put her in her cell - she said there were two other girls and they were just trying to make the best of it....kidding around...laughing at their situation.

1. Why did they isolate her if she indeed answered that she was suicidal ?
2. Why did they leave a garbage bag in her cell?
3. Why on earth do cells have pipes to allow one to hang?
4. Why do cops get away with using a minor infraction as justification for their curiosity, harassment, and violence?

[rhett o rick]

101. Good post Laura. nm

[HFRN]

105. she may have been woman, but we didnt hear her roar nt

[Scuba]

106. + Eighty Gazillion

[WillyT]

108. The Knee-Jerk Reaction Is Telling...

Say their names.

[catrose]

109. I can be both

And I am.
And don't forget NA woman Sarah Lee Circle Bear.

[Lil Missy]

110. Well, for one, the lion didn't commit suicide. n/t

[Stellar]

114. Maybe it's because people don't see any racism in animals and could care less about humans.

At least that's the way I see it.

[lovelydestruction]

117. to be fair

If the innocent-until-proven-guilty black people in the US who have died at the hands of humans who should have been protecting and serving them matched the rate that collared lions of the world have died at the hands of humans who should have been protecting and serving them, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Taitertots]

119. Or 100,000 times more outraged by the invasion/occupation of Iraq

Or a million times more outraged by the inhumane treatment of animals in American factory farms.

There is a disconnect because the level of outrage isn't objectively measured based on the severity of the offense. It's the emotional impact that it has on a person. Some people have a stronger emotional reaction to poaching a lion than innocent black lives lost or hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis.

[WillyT]

120. And Now... From HuffPo...

We Weep For African Lions. But What About Black Lives?
Because, you know, #AllLivesMatter, right?
Julia Craven & Kim Bellware - HuffPo
Posted: 07/29/2015 08:37 PM EDT | Edited: 1 hour ago

Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cecil-black-lives_55b9482ce4b095423d0dc4d5

[leftyladyfrommo]

121. Because there is so much human on human killing in this country

that we are all completely numb to it. You can only take so much pain and outrage and then your psyche just shuts down to it all.

I really believe that a whole lot of the outrage over innocent animal death is displaced outrage over all the death everywhere that we have to deal with on a daily basis.

Humans are just a really vicious animal and we need to do what we have to do to get that under control. That's the reason societies have moral laws and legal systems. It keeps our inherit brutality under control.

[The Polack MSgt]

122. Maybe because

there aren't major media corporations looking for reasons to justify the killing of a lion?

[maddiemom]

123. Apples and oranges.

Two very different outrages. Sandra Bland's tragic death has been covered before, and will continue to be covered long after that of "Cecil." It generated plenty of outrage (yes, more than the other deaths you listed). I don't agree that the more recent outrage has presently gained much attention at the expense of Sandra Bland. Both tragedies need to be addressed. Certainly Ms. Bland's outrage is far more important. Does this mean a lesser, very outrageous situation should be ignored?

[matt819]

129. Say their names

The last line of your post is an excellent reminder.

I was reading the comments to Charles Blow's piece in today's NYT. One comment, from someone who was as condemnatory of the Cincinnati cop as anyone, referred to other killings, like "that guy" who was shot in the back.

There are so many now that they are referred to no by name but by the nature of their killings:
- that guy who was shot in the back
- the kid who was killed in the Walmart
- that guy who died in the Baltimore police van

In a month of two Sandra Bland will be "that woman who committed suicide after changing lanes."

[GitRDun]

130. Sadly, I think there is a very simple answer

Volume and who the criminal is....

First, I think most people are outraged by both. In many ways, the comparison is unfair.

The degree of attention is first more reflective of the fact that there's but one Cecil the lion killing compared to hundreds of Sandra Blands.

News coverage is lower because every week there is another police officer killing an unarmed person of color....it's not incrementally more newsworthy compared to the Cecil story.

I think as far as ordinary people are concerned, we are not only at a point of being jaded by so many Sandra Blands, we have more trouble identifying the bad guy because of the blue wall of silence, misinformation, and cover up.

Cecil was killed by an easy to identify & hate bad guy; a rich white jerk hiding behind his money.

[Reter]

132. Because the lion could not have prevented what happened to him

If Bland had smiled and said "I'm sorry officer, I didn't know I missed putting on my turn signal, here's my ID" there is no way anything bad would have happened, and she may have even gotten out of the ticket. Plus the difference is the lion was murdered with 100% certainty. He death is most likely a suicide.

[gcomeau]

136. Ahem...

[Reter]

144. No it isn't

I'm not "telling black folks" how to act. What's wrong with being respectful to police? I borderline kiss ass when I'm pulled over. It betters your chances. I have a white libertarian friend who must have gotten like 10 tickets the past two years. When he's pulled over, he yells at the cop and tapes them. It's legal and in his right, but it rarely works.

[gcomeau]

145. Yes it is.

I'm not "telling black folks" how to act.

That is literally exactly what you did. You said she could have avoided ending up dead and there is no way anything bad would have happened if she had acted as you deem appropriate.

What's wrong with being respectful to police?

Nothing, but it's not a requirement. It is not against the law to be in a bad mood in the presence of a police officer. Just like there's nothing wrong with a woman dressing modestly but that isn't a requirement either.

I have a white libertarian friend who must have gotten like 10 tickets the past two years. When he's pulled over, he yells at the cop and tapes them. It's legal and in his right, but it rarely works.

And being a *white* libertarian friend how many times has he been arrested, roughed up, or shot for yelling at the police, rather than just getting the ticket he was already heading for anyway? You do understand that if instead of talking about your white libertarian friend doing that if you were talking about your black libertarian friend it's not unlikely you would be referring to them in the past tense? And that *that* is the real problem here?

[Reter]

147. It's also not a requirement to dress nice on a job interview

And it's not a requirement once you are hired to show your new boss respect. No one is saying anyone deserves a ticket or to get beat for giving an attitude, but it's wise to avoid it. Picture a cop to be a pit bull. It sucks that that's the way it has to be, but kissing ass helps. Not for blacks only, but for all of us.

I'll be honest with you, he never got arrested. But he always gets that ticket and gets threatened. He once screamed at a cop to get off his phone while driving. The cop said "You gonna give me a ticket?" and sped away. He's not breaking the law, but he's treading dangerous water. You're right though. If he were black, he's already have been arrested, beaten, or worse. I'm not disagreeing with that.

[gcomeau]

148. Now you're losing the narrative.

In a job interview the person you are interviewing with has every right to decide not to hire you based on whatever impression you make.

The police have NO right to harass or bully or assault someone for perceived "disrespect".



As my original post pointed out, you could also make an argument that recommending to women that they dress modestly was intended as helpful friendly advice born out of concern that they not fall victim to some sexual predator... but that's exactly the point. The onus isn't supposed to be on them to dress modestly and it's not supposed to be on people to tread lightly around the police in case on of them decides to go off on a power trip if you rub them the wrong way.

The *same principle* is involved in both cases.

[gcomeau]

135. The article may be confusing "caring more" with "getting more attention".

And the reasons for it getting more attention aren't really mysterious. One story is novel, and one is practically a daily occurrence. One is about a Lion (oooh, exotic!!) and one is about a person.

It doesn't take a whole lot of contemplation to figure out why one gets a lot of headline space.

[LiberalLovinLug]

138. there is no benifet from this kind of question

I have heard a similar approach over and over usually from conservative idiots that think they are being clever.

Pitting causes against each other in order to nullify both. "Save the whale?...save the human!"


You know, lets answer that question in a thoughtful way. I think, in general (not in this case) human vs. human is regarded as more of a fair fight. They speak the same language (usually) so they can reason with the other. They also (usually) have family or friends of the same species to come to their aid. There is a justice system in place that prevents (most) abuses from ever happening.

While a pet is like your own personal plaything that can be loved, but can also be subject to a cruel abusive life that they must endure because they are OWNED. Most of this abuse that goes on is not reported. And of course its worse for wild animals. They have no rights. Even hunting permits and open seasons are couched in terms where it is coalesces around the human ("HIS right to hunt" its not "the ANIMAL's right to live)

Yes in this case, a person was under complete dominance of a weaponized authority figure(s) and had no defense. But I am speaking in general terms, as you asked the question in a general way as well.

[One_Life_To_Give]

146. Premeditation

For the moment there is no proof that someone set out to specifically execute Sandra. Nobody is accused of baiting here to a place where her trophy hunter could gun her down.

[roamer65]

150. Humans tend to place very little value on ANY life in general.

Look how many we killed in just World Wars I and II. It was in the tens of millions, not even including 6 million in Hitler's gas chambers.

It's a very sad trait of us as a species and will eventually be our undoing. Mark my words.

[BlueJazz]

151. My heart breaks a little for all these types of Death. I understand though that I can't expect...

...everybody to have the same brain patterns (as I and most DUer's)

[samsingh]

152. we are outraged over both

[McCamy Taylor]

155. Good point. I've noticed this before. People care more about animals than other people.