Unless you are a vegan, you are just as much a monster as the lion-killing dentist

[oberliner]

If you eat meat and/or eggs then you are part of a system that engages in the torture and slaughter of millions upon millions of animals every day. These animals might not be as "noble" as a lion, and you might not be pulling the trigger yourself, but make no mistake you are an accessory to animal cruelty and murder.

Tens of billions of animals are slaughtered in the US alone every year.

Perhaps the revulsion people are feeling towards this dentist will cause more folks to re-examine their food choices, or at the very least, be more informed about what goes on in factory farms across America.

Eating animals = mass, mechanized murder.

If you have any compassion for Cecil, you ought to consider extending that compassion to the thousands of cows, turkeys, chickens, and pigs that were murdered in the time it took for you to read this message.

[TreasonousBastard]

1. ...

[aikoaiko]

2. I understand that line of thinking, but I reject the premise.

Eating/killing an animal that is in a declining population is different from eating/killing livestock animals.

[oberliner]

11. In what respect?

I am definitely open to hearing opposing views on the subject.

[aikoaiko]

13. I thought you might want more so I edited the above.

hoping I could get it in before you saw it.

[snooper2]

299. Adding a good video since this thread is fairly disappointing

Make Money!

[Adrahil]

62. animals kill and eat each other all the time.

We are animals. We just happen to be very good at killing and eating other animals.

I don't have a problem with killing and eating other animals for food, within the bounds of ethics.

[oberliner]

70. Animals kill babies and rape females

As humans, we are able to decide that such behavior is not appropriate.

[Adrahil]

85. We also, generally speaking, do not eat other humans.

Like many animals, we have developed complicated social rules that govern our interaction. But adopting one type of taboo does not necessitate adopting all.

I don't see anything morally objectionable about consuming other animals for food. You do. That's fine. So far, my point of view has prevailed in human society. That doesn't mean it always will of course, but it has so far.

I'm certainly willing to listen and be convinced. No one has convinced me so far, but I'll listen.

[NCTraveler]

193. Yet we still do it.

The second one at an alarming rate, that would be much worse if simply made easier.

[oberliner]

232. But folks generally don't boast about it on DU

Those that engage in such behavior are viewed with disgust.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

348. Animals aren't moral beings, humans are.

But if we say eating animals by humans is immoral where does this moral precept originate?

[oberliner]

350. Agreed

I am not suggesting that eating animals is immoral. I am saying that if a person believes the dentist to be a monster for killing Cecil than I think they might have similar feelings with respect to what goes on in factory farms with respect to those many millions of animals that are not lions and how their food choices contribute to that, were they aware and informed about it.

[postulater]

3. Now I feel bad. I'm going to have to throw out my stuffed chicken head collection.

[oberliner]

6. Better for the corpse of Cecil to have been processed into food?

Because that appears to be what you are implying.

[snooper2]

230. This thread prompted me to do ribs this weekend, want to come over (dry rub)

[brooklynite]

237. I'm more of a brisket person.

[snooper2]

240. So instead of four hours you want seven ...I can do that :)

you bring the drinks-

Just right outside Dallas

[Amishman]

360. those look amazing!

are you cooking over charcoal?

[snooper2]

387. charcoal! fucking charcoal! never! In Texas we use real fuel

like pecan (my usual) or hickory or mesquite

[sharp_stick]

4. I'll just sit here

enjoying my bacon cheeseburger and see what transpires.

[HERVEPA]

80. Highly intelligent response.

[sharp_stick]

209. Such an apropos reply to my response

well done, I'm so glad you took the time to figure it out.

Keep up the good good work, the improvement is showing.

[oberliner]

257. That cartoon is pretty funny

I can't stand cyclists.

[Jamaal510]

303. +1

[hunter]

5. What if I'm a cannibal?

I'm pretty sure somewhere in everyone's ancestry there are a few.

[LuvNewcastle]

321. We might be shocked by

how near it was was to our time.

[leftynyc]

7. Uh - no

There is a VAST difference between eating animals and killing them so you can decorate your house with their heads and hides.

[oberliner]

14. If the dentist had eaten the lion, that would have made it better?

I am not really seeing how that argument makes sense.

[leftynyc]

92. Not if he was then

decorating his house with the remains. I have no problem with hunting as long as you eat what you kill. I would outlaw trophy hunting which I find disgusting. Just my personal opinion.

[Mojorabbit]

139. I agree. nt

[mucifer]

221. In my opinion eating what you hunt is less cruel than eating a burger at a fast food place.

[yeoman6987]

112. I can't see eating a lion, but eating a steak is good eating

I am sure I'll eat some sort of meat tonight for dinner as we are going out to dinner with friends. I don't equate the two at all.

[oberliner]

251. Why do you care about the lion's death but not the cow's?

Most likely the cow led a pretty miserable life before being killed. Why is that no big deal?

[yeoman6987]

316. I was interested in the news of the lion

Doesn't happen everyday. I am not particularly upset with the dentist. Many are though.

[skepticscott]

357. The vast majority of people only care about the lion's death

because it's popular on social media. As you quite aptly have pointed out, most of the people expressing righteous outrage over this probably never give a thought to the treatment and slaughter of food animals that happens every day, or to the ongoing problem of poaching. There are oceans of hypocrisy being spilled along with ink over this one single animal. Just goes to show how thoroughly people in this country are programmed.

[lpbk2713]

8. Anyone else you want to wag your finger at?

I can wait.

[oberliner]

16. People are justifiably wagging their fingers at the dentist for what he did to that lion

I am just asking those who condemn him to reflect on their own food choices.

It is a topic I feel strongly about.

[lpbk2713]

21. Understood.

OK

[Logical]

90. "Own food choices"??? He killed the lion for food? Link please! nt

[oberliner]

108. He did not kill the lion for food

I am suggesting that the anger and sadness many of us feel with respect to what happened to Cecil could also extend to the cruelty and murder of animals that result from our food choices.

[ozone_man]

202. But it isn't about the food.

He didn't shoot the lion for food. If you want to start a thread about living vegan or not, then you should title it appropriately.

This issue is about Trophy hunting big game. Sadly, one of my heroes, Teddy Roosevelt was a big game hunter, especially in Africa, and may have indirectly caused this modern day tragedy. 100 years ago, we didn't see how finite the world was. Nature seemed endless. Now we know how finite and fragile it is.

[mucifer]

222. No the thread is about cruelty to animals. The animals most people eat suffer horribly for years.

But, that seems to be ok to most people. But, the suffering of one lion is upsetting millions of people. It's just plain weird.

[Chemisse]

260. Did the lion suffer? I think people are upset because he was KILLED.

It's really hard to compare this to the meat industry.

[mucifer]

263. No it's not. The OP is discussing animal suffering and the animals that are turned into

meat are KILLED also.

[Kali]

312. point of accuracy

most food animals are killed at less than one year and cattle, which are older than a year, in general do not spend their entire lives in a feedlot so unless being raised on pasture with their mothers and herdmates is considered "suffering(ing) horribly for years" they do not suffer for years. that would be some shitty meat.

whether you consider feedlots good or bad, they may "suffer" for an average of 140 days of standing around eating free choice amounts of feed. if you ever visit a feedlot and know anything about cattle (which I do since I raise them), they don't seem to be suffering greatly. yes there are problems and the diet is not all that natural for a grass eating animal but the image some activists project is not reality.

note: I am not fully condoning feedlots or other CAFO practices but I do have some familiarity with them. if you want to educate people about what you don't like about something it is kind of important to be at least a little bit accurate otherwise your credibility comes into question and people tend to stop believing anything you say.

[pipoman]

338. yep

[ozone_man]

373. It can be about cruelty to animals.

There are many aspects about this that invite discussion. Cruelty to animals is one. I rank (hate to rank this) the survival of the species as top priority. In this case, lions, who I love.

[el_bryanto]

351. Obviously - you feel that everybody who doesn't share your view is a monster

I'd say that indicates a very strong feeling.

Bryant

[Rex]

181. He like makes a Outraged at GD post once a day, nothing original about the OP.

Just more crap to rag on DU about, just like his tiny group of friends do all the time.

It is pathetic.

[oberliner]

273. What are you talking about?

Are you confusing me with another poster?

[zappaman]

274. Rex...

[OnyxCollie]

9. I assume you never mow your lawn.

Lots of toads, bugs, snakes, etc. get killed by lawn mowers.

[JoePhilly]

35. ... or lives in a house ...

... since building houses kills and displaces all of the animals who had lived in that space, and it disrupts the ecology of the surrounding area.

But hey ... maybe the OP gets great WIFI in his tent out in the berry patch.

And even then, if he's eating all the berries, the local animals have fewer berries to eat. Which is mean.

[GreatGazoo]

66. and the ultimate answer is the new Prius Solution...

[JoePhilly]

75. That's awesome!! I want one!!!

[DawgHouse]

191. Oh my gosh, that'll do it!

[HFRN]

210. but what about all the bugs crushed under the floor of his tent?

or that blades of grass that yellow from lack of sun?

[oberliner]

43. Unfortunately everyone contributes to animal cruelty

I would encourage people to minimize that contribution wherever possible, such as by considering a vegan diet (and by not hunting lions).

[Polly Hennessey]

127. Agree

What about the occasional cockroach, black widow spider, ant that may wander into the vegan household. Are they killed or just welcomed into the family.

[deafskeptic]

143. sowing and harvesting

vegetables and corn (any kind of food harvested as a grain - not just maize) can be injurious to the animals that live in the ground and to snakes, etc as well. Plus I can not get past the B-12 thing. I would like to see more humane ways of livestock as in raising livestock and then butchering them when they'r ready to be butchered.

[Facility Inspector]

10. bombast

[MineralMan]

12. Pretty much nobody eats lions, really.

People hunt them for other reasons. Lots and lots of people eat domestic animals. There is a difference, and it's a massive difference.

Will this lion change people's diets? Not a chance. Will people who eat meat still be angry about the death of this lion? Absolutely. Will people equate their own diets with a senseless killing of a lion as a trophy? That's not going to happen.

Educating people is a good idea, but attempting to shame people by likening some trophy hunter to someone grilling a burger or some chicken isn't going to do the job. It simply will not work.

Calling people who include meat in their diet "monsters" is not going to have the effect you would like, either.

[oberliner]

22. Some people are calling this dentist a monster

Personally, I think the factory farm system in the United States is equally monstrous.

I would encourage folks to reflect on whether or not they what to contribute to the torture and murder of billions of animals, especially if they had a powerful emotional reaction to what happened to Cecil.

[geek tragedy]

23. what's the conservation status of chickens and pigs? nt

[MineralMan]

25. I call the dentist a selfish asshole.

Your opinion of eating meat raised by others is your opinion. Calling people monsters, however, isn't going to convince them to think as you do, frankly. Instead, they'll simply reject your premise, because they know they're not monsters.

Your hyperbolic message is counterproductive. You should reconsider how you frame your argument. Really.

You're on the wrong track, here.

[Warpy]

72. You are a lot kinder than I was

and I've been a poverty vegetarian several times in my life, often for years at a whack, thanks to my precarious health and lack of access to insurance.

My answering post won't get hidden, but it will offend the superior morality of the zealots.

[HERVEPA]

84. You don't get to decide the tracks.

[MineralMan]

111. I get to decide my opinion, though.

Every time.

[HERVEPA]

152. Yep. uou don't get to decide what track the poster is on, though.

[BeyondGeography]

15. Oh

You're serious.

[Kali]

313. that was my reaction too

thought it was satire

[Gregorian]

17. Tell it to my canine dentition.

[Throd]

18. What a pile.

[HERVEPA]

86. Might want to talk about the post rather than yourself

[Logical]

94. Everyone but you knows he was addressing the post. Nt

[HERVEPA]

107. Oh, really. Thanks, I didn't know.

[Logical]

131. I know you didn't know. nt

[snooper2]

233. Got Lettuce?

I'm trying to start a new ad campaign for PETA

[geek tragedy]

19. This is some high grade sophistry

1. Trophy hunting is not the same as supplying the basic human need for protein.
2. Turkeys, chickens, pigs and cows are not wild animals part of an ecosystem--they exist in massive numbers, as domesticated livestock.
3. There are 30,000 lions left in the wild on planet earth. And their numbers are dropping.
4. This was a crime against a developing nation, killing one of their few ecologically sustainable/healthy sources of income.
5. Turkeys are not shot with a crossbow and allowed to live for 40 agonizing hours before being dispatched.
6. You are arguing that extirpating every wild species on planet earth would be no worse than having Kentucky fried chicken. That's beyond asinine.

[oberliner]

26. Thank you for your response

1. Basic human need for protein can be satisfied without killing and eating animals.
2. Those animals do exist in massive numbers, but that does not make their treatment any less horrifying in my opinion.
3. Those lions should be protected and killing them illegally should be vigorously punished.
4. Absolutely - but it also can serve as an opportunity to reflect on one's own food choices
5. A turkey raised for food lives its entire life in agony. PETA.org can give you more information if you are interested.

[geek tragedy]

50. oy, so this is just PETA vegangelism. nt

[HERVEPA]

88. Or maybe just compassion.

[geek tragedy]

93. nope, just vegangelism trying to horn in on concern for endangered species. nt

[oberliner]

113. Consider extending your compassion for endangered species to other animals as well

It seems that this could present an opportunity for such reflection.

[geek tragedy]

115. Not about compassion it's about preservation. nt

[zappaman]

114. Nailed it. n/t

[snooper2]

227. but come on...you have to admit..that this

.
.











LOOKS YUMMY IN OUR TUMMY!

[oberliner]

231. A lion's head looks good mounted on a wall

I could see someone saying that they have no problem with either, but I don't understand how someone can be disgusted by one and not by the other. Both involve the killing and likely mistreatment of an animal.

[snooper2]

235. BLAH, cows and steers are overpopulated because of humans..lions not so much

My cat Samy killed one nasty ass looking mouse right after we bought this house.. I gave him no grief

Think about the environment as a whole instead of one dead cicada

[LuvLoogie]

384. Them's good eatin'

Roasted grasshoppers taste like pumpkinseeds, but make sure they are only about an inch long or so. The big ones are kind of chewey.

[Rex]

182. You were supposed to get outraged! He makes a thread a day just to crap on DU.

Such a no trick pony.

[geek tragedy]

183. "If you put gas in your car you're no different than the Koch brothers!!!" nt

[Rex]

184. Pretty much.

And of course people gave him what he wanted...negative attention.

[oberliner]

254. What are you talking about?

I am not sure where that is coming from.

[Marr]

20. Absurd.

Chickens are not an endangered species, nor are they killed for fun/bragging rights.

[oberliner]

33. Day old male baby chicks are dropped, mutilated, and ground up alive

Hundreds of millions of these baby male chickens are born and killed within hours of their birth by being dropped into a grinding machine and torn to pieces by a high speed macerator.

[Marr]

44. I know.

I'm not saying the meat industry is run as humanely as it could-- and should-- be run. But equating the consumption of meat with hunting endangered species for fun is absurd.

[smirkymonkey]

201. What? Why?

I didn't know that.

[oberliner]

259. Chick culling

Chick culling is the process of killing newly hatched poultry for which the industry has no use. Due to modern selective breeding, laying hen strains differ from meat production strains. As male birds of the laying strain do not lay eggs and are not suitable for meat production, they are generally killed soon after they hatch[1] and shortly after being sexed. Methods of culling include cervical dislocation, asphyxiation by carbon dioxide and maceration using a high speed grinder.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling

[smirkymonkey]

325. Ugh, that bums me out.

I wish I didn't know that. I am not a vegetarian, but I am trying to eat less meat, more legumes. That is just horrible.

[oberliner]

328. Yeah - I was once shown a video of that process

It had a huge impact and has stayed with me for many years.

[HFRN]

208. i've seen the peta films of that - sickening

and the worst part is - they might be the luckiest chickens in that factory

what the hell does that say about us?

[oberliner]

258. Those films have stuck with me forever

They had a strong impact to say the least.

[onenote]

24. I suppose I shouldn't have any compassion for Cecil -- he wasn't a vegan either.

And if people who aren't vegans are "just as much a monster" as a guy who trophy hunts a lion that resides on a protected reserve, then I suppose vegans who purchase anything from a non-vegan, who then goes out and uses the money earned from the vegan to purchase meat, are at least half as much the monster as the non-vegan.

But thanks for the hyperbole break.

[oberliner]

37. I just wanted to encourage folks to reconsider their food choices

I confess to using hyperbole in order to do so, but it is a topic that I feel very strongly about.

[msanthrope]

57. reconsider our food choices? tonight's dinner was going to be cold peanut noodles

Something about this thread made me hungry for hamburger.

[eShirl]

323. Then I'm not the only one.

Something about this thread made me hungry for hamburger.

[HERVEPA]

91. No need to apologize for an accurate post

[G_j]

27. a small number of animals are raised and Killed humanely

though I agree that factory farms are the epitome of cruelty and torture.

[stevenleser]

28. I'm a pescetarian that doesn't consume dairy. I eat mostly veggie meals with

some sushi/fish on occasion.

I saw a stat that says somewhere in the neighborhood of 92% of sea life ends up eaten by other sea life, so... I am not sure I agree with your premise.

[SidDithers]

29. Does that make Cecil a monster too?...

Or are only lions allowed to eat meat?

Sid

[oberliner]

40. Cecil did not have other options

As humans, we do not need to kill and eat animals in order to live long and healthy lives.

[Major Nikon]

59. So what are your options that you seem to think are better?

[stevenleser]

78. Personally, I recommend my diet to anyone. I adopted it with the hopes of going vegan eventually

The diet is vegetables, fruit, low carbs, no dairy and supplemented by fish or seafood as needed.

I'm 7 months in and feeling great. I lost a lot of weight (30 lbs) and 8 inches off my waist. I have no trouble keeping it off either. My cholesterol is way down. My doctor had been bugging me to go on statins, now I am on the low side of normal.

As I said in the subject, I view the diet as a stepping stone to going completely vegan. I go an entire week occasionally where I don't eat any fish or seafood.

In addition to the fish I eat a ton of legumes, falafel and lentils as my main protein source.

[Major Nikon]

104. You are still murdering countless helpless animals by the OPs definition

This includes everything you mentioned.

[stevenleser]

121. I'm sure there are various folks who would think so. I'm comfortable with where I am and where I am

trying to go.

I think the OP is wrong headed in his approach.

[Major Nikon]

157. Agreed

If you want to adopt any sort of diet for whatever reason, more power to you. The problem comes in when one tries to claim moral superiority on that basis.

[SidDithers]

82. Humans are biologically programmed to eat meat...

Just like Cecil is.

You, and some others, have chosen to ignore millions of years of evolution. You have that luxury, because humans have developed a society in which you're not competing for food resources.

I deplore the killing of the lion Cecil. Sport hunting is an abomination.

But to equate sport hunters with the billions of humans who eat meat is just fucking ridiculous.

Sid

[Major Nikon]

110. The fucking ridiculousness of it is what makes it counterproductive to the stated goal

It's what turns people off to groups like PETA.

[oberliner]

118. Men are biologically programmed to impregnate as many females as possible

Including ones who are younger than what we would consider to be the legal age of consent.

Fortunately we have developed a society that goes beyond biological programming.

[mucifer]

224. Some of us have been vegans for decades we don't need to eat meat.

If people care about the lifelong suffering that goes into most meat especially the factory farmed meat, it's not fucking ridiculous.

[lancer78]

151. what about omnivores?

[JoePhilly]

47. Hey sid ... please remember ...

[HFRN]

207. ...

[oberliner]

244. What lions do in the wild would certainly be considered monstrous by human standards

Infanticide and rape, for example.

[BeeBee]

31. What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say. n/t

[HERVEPA]

95. Why not talk about the OP rather than your own post?

[BeeBee]

105. I did that, thanks. n/t

[MattSh]

317. This is what passes for wit these days?

[NuclearDem]

32. Oh for God's sake.

And I'm a vegan too.

[KittyWampus]

147. IKR, I joined a Vegan Facebook page and got kicked off because I insisted some GMO plants

are fine. Like Oranges with a protein from Spinach. OMG! The HORROR!

[Agnosticsherbet]

34. Biologically, we are evolved to be omnivores and eat animals.

Your logic is not founded on sound science.

[WDIM]

54. Scientifically speaking our teeth cannot bite through

The flesh of a cow and many other animals we eat without skinning seasoning and cooking it.

In additional we would be very ill if we ate animals with out cooking them.

So scientifically speaking we are not meant to eat large animals or pork or chicken or turkey. If you cannot eat it raw you are not meant to eat it in nature.

[Agnosticsherbet]

73. Humans have evolved to eat cooked meat, as we have been using fire for more than 350,000 years.

Our stomachs are not evolved to digest most plants efficiently, otherwise we would have a digestive system more like bovines or related species. Perhaps in 100,000 years, the choice of Veganism would drive evolution and we will see a separate speces of herbivores.

Again, your logic is not founded in science.

I have nothing against Vegans, I am, after all, prochoice when it comes to food.

We survive by eating living things.

[WDIM]

120. Our digestive system also has not evolved to eat

Large quantities of meat other wise we would have digestive system similiar to wolves or lions. Our teeth would be able to easily tear flesh.

The human digestive system is more setup for plants than meat but we are omnivores where we can eat small amounts of meat especially fish and shell fish and small mammals like rabbits.

But the idea that we are meant to slaughter thousands of cows a day and eat meat with every meal has only came about in the last 100 years. Before that meat especially cow was usually a luxury.

[Agnosticsherbet]

146. Yes, that is I said omnvore.

We utilize and adaptaion to use a wide variety of foods, which is valuable to the species if some traditional food sources disappear.

Humans, and especially our children, are not adapted to a narrow vegtable diet.

Again, people can choose to be vegans, just as people can choose to eat Schwarma or beats.

[WDIM]

160. But biologically speaking not large mammals for that we need tools

And we use tools everyday to defy nature and our biology and our evolution. The point is making the right choice on what is best for the planet. Not just convenient for us.

And humans can thrive on a plant based diet even children. There is nothing we get from meat we cannot get from plants.

[Agnosticsherbet]

188. Tools do not defy nature. They are anadaptaton we evolved with, and their use

made us successful as a species, so we continued to adapat and evolve as tool users.

The point I am making is that through natural evolution, we developed as omnivors.

Nutritional science tells us that children will not thrive on pure veggan diet. Adults, can suplament a diet thanks to modern science, but it is not natural to the species.

Also, another point in evolution, we evolved to eat meat becasue protien is the most efficient source to fuel our big brains.

[WDIM]

192. You can get plenty of protein without eating meat.

It is a myth we need meat for protein.

So your argument is because we can develop tools and can use them we have evolved over time to eat meat. That is just false logic.

Edit: tools are used to defy nature. It is not natural for humans to eat cow but thanks to tools we can. It is not natural to live in ac houses but thanks to tools we can. It is not natural to drive a car down the street but thanks to tools we can.

[Agnosticsherbet]

196. Scienctific evidence absolutely disagrees with your statement.

So your belief is the myth.

Your arugment continues to be bereft of logic and scientific evidence.
f
By all means, choose to be a Vegan. It is your choice. However, science, fact, and logic it is not.

[WDIM]

205. Your argument continues be bereft of logic and reason and evidence.

There is nothing to say you cant take the first homosapien and raise him/her as a child today and their brain would allow the same tool use as modern human. There is no proof of this biological evolution that allowed more complex tool use in the same species of human that have existed.

I know for a fact you can raise a child without meat. I know for a fact you can get all the protein and nutrients a body needs without meat.

Science you read is wrong but science is often wrong. Science use to believe the world was flat. Science created the nuclear bomb. Some people treat science like a religion and it is sacrosanct it is not.

[Agnosticsherbet]

206. You work from a system of belief not fact.

(1) Our evolution began millions of years before the first homosapiens.
(2) You do not know it for a fact, because there are no facts in your statement.

You proved you were wrong by saying "Science used to believe the world was flat." Science is a process and a method used to study and understand the world. Scientists did not declare the world was flat, though some religions held that dogma as an article of faith.

Humans have known the world was a sphere back at least as far as the ancient Greeks and probably much earlier. Any competent sailor in the history of the earth knew the world was a sphere.

I do not have a problem with a vegan belief system. My problem is attempting to use it as moral authority to condemn those who do not follow the Vegan belief system.

[TransitJohn]

217. Defy nature?

It is our nature to fashion and use tools.
Or did you mean some religious gaia concept by 'nature'?

[Major Nikon]

97. Complete nonsense

People can and do eat many types of animals in just such a manner, but even if they couldn't it would be completely irrelevant. Your ancestors evolved by using tools to get at marrow meat and other carcass proteins that other predators could not get. So the idea that tools weren't part and parcel to the whole evolutionary process is just not that great. Furthermore if you ancestors had not done so, you'd still be living in a tree throwing shit at your neighbors.

People eat raw animal meat all the time. Raw oysters and sushi are two examples, as is eating beef cooked rare. Eating raw meat isn't going to hurt you anymore than your ancestors. Storing meat at improper temperatures and then eating it is the problem. The biggest reason people cook meat is for taste and to reduce potential pathogen counts which may have risen between butchering and consumption.

[WDIM]

137. Biological evolutionary speaking we are not meant to eat large mammals

We cannot go out and jump on the back of a cow kill and eat it like our carnivorous animal cousins.

The idea i was disputing was that we have not biologically evolved to eat large mammals. Yes we can eat fish and shell fish and small mammals and birds amd insects with ease. But biological evolution has not set us up to be eating cows.

Tools are not biological evolution. They are humanity's way to defy nature and just do whatever we want. The eating meat with every meal and killing thousands of cows a day is the result of technology not evolution and has only came about in the last 100 years.

[Agnosticsherbet]

155. Tool use is an adaptation devloped millions of years ago, not a short cut.

We have evolved as tool users.

We began with simplest tools, and evovled so that we could utilize more complex tools and be better at it because tool use enabled humans to have more offspring.

We are by no means the only tool users. We have just specialized as a species to use them.

[WDIM]

199. Tools are not biological

Biological evolution does not allow a human to take down a cow and eat it using only biology.

[Major Nikon]

174. Not sure where you are pulling that out of

But I have an idea.

Homo Erectus was already evolved enough to use stone tools capable of bringing down and butchering game of pretty much any size. We have evidence that Homo Heidelbergensis, was hunting and butchering rhinos and hippos. Both of these species predate Homo Neanderthalensis and Homo Sapiens both of which from their very beginnings were routinely bringing down, butchering, and eating large game just as their biological ancestors did.

Cows are a domestic species which never existed in the wild as we know them today, which is also true for just about everything else you eat.

[TransitJohn]

220. Where did you take your PhD?

Anatomy, Zoology or Anthropology?

[laundry_queen]

256. You don't need a PhD for this one

I learned it in a 200-level Anthropology course titled "Human Pre-history". And yes that poster is incorrect. In fact, a lot of studies have been done and even early human ancestors, before tools, were eating meat and animal products. Usually scavenging or eating scorched meat after a wildfire, or eating a lot of shellfish at the ocean's edge, or stealing eggs from bird's nests. And also, before farming and a rapid increase in the consumption of grains, humans were healthier and larger than after agriculture took hold.

Anyway, it was a super interesting course. I'd love to take more Anthro courses someday (it was an elective for me).

[oberliner]

124. Biologically, men are evolved to impregnate multiple females

That would be any female who is old enough to give birth to a baby.

Fortunately, we are more than our biological programming.

[WDIM]

150. Good point

But we are not evolved biologically speaking to eat large mammals or large amounts of meat.

The argument was we have biologically evolved to be omnivores that is true but not the kind that kills thousands of cow a day and eats meat with every meal. And not large mammals.

Humans can defy nature and our biology and it is up to us to chose what is right.

[Major Nikon]

178. If that were true there would be far more women than men

Humans evolved to be more, rather than less monogamous as it makes dividing up the child rearing responsibility more efficient.

Now if you want to say humans have evolved to use logic and reason to make ethical decisions, I would agree completely. But logic and reason are pretty much void in the ethical argument as to why humans should not eat meat and instead relies heavily on logical fallacies, like the appeal to emotion described in the OP.

[oberliner]

298. The rate of monogamy among primates is about 6 percent

Monogamy is a cultural phenomenon, not a biological one.

And I am making no ethical argument as to why humans should not eat meat nor am I relying on logical fallacies or appeals to emotion.

I am merely suggesting that if one is repulsed by the actions of the dentist and empathetic regarding the death of the lion, it would stand to reason that they would have similar feelings with respect to what goes on in factory farms and their own role in sustaining them.

[Major Nikon]

336. You are trying to make an ethical argument whether or not you realize or admit it

You start out your poorly received OP with...

Unless you are a vegan, you are just as much a monster as the lion-killing dentist

That's just a bit stronger than a suggestion, don't you think? Rather than making an implication, you are asserting a fact.

You go on to support your first assertion of fact with a few other half-fast assertions. I can repeat them if you like, but I suspect you can find your own OP.

So to say you're not trying to make an ethical argument here is pretty far afield from reality, and your argument relies on a false equivalency and appeals to emotion, both of which are logical fallacies.

Both of these fallacies are completely ridiculous, as many in the thread noted. It looks more like a very poor attempt at warping the hot topic of the day into your pet agenda, and not surprisingly most people saw right through it.

[Peacetrain]

36. As a Pescetarian..Nah...

Eating meat just means a person is part of the cycle of life nature has put forward. If we were going to start setting standards on life being relevant and valuable by going after those who consume animal protein, lions would be first in line.. if you get my drift.


I do eat fish and otherwise maintain a strict vegan diet.. out of choice and what I like.. I do not eat other protein sources, or drink milk (disgusting stuff) or eat the embryo of chickens not out of compassion.. but because of what tastes good to me!

The nimrod that bowed and then stalked for 40 hours Cecil the lion did so out of a choice to kill something for the pure pleasure of killing..not sustaining his own life. Now if you want to go to that issue I think you would get a lot of AMENS..

You are right on target on one thing.. if people would ever go to kill floor (I have) it would be an eye opener for most.

[stevenleser]

89. Yep, fellow pescetarian here who also does not eat dairy or eggs. Love the diet, hope to go all

vegan at some point.

Sushi is really hard to give up though. And I've tried the all veggie versions.

[Peacetrain]

106. I have been doing this for over 4 years and just love it

Some of the recipes I have developed are my friends favorites.. That and it really really changed my cholesterol.. amazing..

[stevenleser]

123. Yes, dramatically changed my cholesterol. I wish I had done this a long time ago.

Luckily I did it before trying to go on statins as I understand the side effects from those drugs can be nasty.

[Peacetrain]

253. Steven that is awesome!

If you can control the cholesterol without going on statins.. it is a much better thing..

[abakan]

38. I have never killed anything in my life.

I know where my food comes from and while I don't like it, I can't restrict myself to a vegan diet and I won't. I also will make no excuses for my diet and will not be shamed for it. Sorry your premise is flawed and combative.

[snooper2]

272. In 1987 there was a spider on your alternator that would tell a different story

His name was...



Well- do we have to go there

[abakan]

310. Nope

Ya got me!

[oberliner]

290. If you don't like it, then you can change the behavior

Many of us are shaming the dentist for what he did to that lion. I think it is reasonable to point out that what goes on in factory farms, where 99 percent of farm animals are raised, is also horrific. I am not understanding how one can feel real sorrow and empathy for Cecil and be comfortable consuming animals that were subject to serious mistreatment and cruelty.

[abakan]

309. you assume much.

My meat comes from a local butcher, from a local farm. There is no factory involved. My eggs come from a friend with chickens who would be called, free range. I still will not allow you, with your know it all smugness, make a ripple in my life. Good luck to you.

[WDIM]

39. I agree but monster is a little strong.

Most people see meat as a faceless nameless package they buy at the store. The vast majority have never directly killed an animal and wouldn't kill an animal.

We have a disconnect from the noble cow chewing grass in the field and the steak that shows up on our plate. And it is that disconnect that keeps people consuming meat. If we were shown in the store or restaurant how these animals were killed there would be a decline in meat eating.

The dentist is a monster he premedatively lured out and entrapped the lion shooting it and gutting it for a thrill. He is a disgusting narcissist.

[JoePhilly]

41. I was sitting here trying to think of what to make for dinner tonight ...

... and I had not even considered Turkey tenderloins until I saw your OP. I have a good recipe for those.

Oh well ... off to the local Harris Teeter to hunt my dinner.

[oberliner]

56. Think about the life that turkey had before its carcass reached the grocery store

I would imagine that it was not pleasant.

[JoePhilly]

60. For a second there, I thought you said "pheasant".

Which did make me briefly reconsider my dinner choice.

[HERVEPA]

99. Proud of your arrogance?

[JoePhilly]

149. I think you mean my whimsical approach to life.

Come one ... "pleasant" ... "pheasant" ...that was funny.

And if one is going to get up that high on their horse ... I'm gonna make glue out of it.

[TheSarcastinator]

163. proud of your self-righteousness?

Just curious. Do you really think your approach will persuade anyone?

[alphafemale]

175. Just as bad as Pat Robertson or any other Bible Thumper

Self-righteousness nails it exactly.

[Major Nikon]

187. Arguably worse

At least with the Jesus freaks to can appeal to the almighty god.

[geek tragedy]

96. so, we should drive turkeys and chickens into extinction? nt

[GusBob]

42. If the electronic devices you use contain coltan, and chances are they do

or you wear diamonds, you are just as culpable in African genocide

which is worse than eating chicken in my opinion

[cwydro]

45. Well, I'm safe on the egg thing.

I raise my own free range chickens. They have it made in the shade.

They live to a ripe old age even after they stop laying. They're a part of my family.

I can't remember the last time I ate meat, but I'm not a vegan.

[postatomic]

46. And if I prevent my sperm from reaching an egg

I'm a baby killer.

I associate mass, mechanized murder with things like the Holocaust. Not animals that are bred and raised to feed the population.

That 3rd cup of coffee can be brutal.

[irisblue]

48. Alert Results

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

calling all non-vegans monsters (which is the majority of members here

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Jul 29, 2015, 03:58 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It is a stupid opinion but so what? Take it on, not alert.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Talk about over-the-top.....
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: the poster expressed a passionate opinion. people who disagree can say so.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Offensive, insulting, nonsensical and over the top.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't know that I'd want to hide it - it is kinda shrill and funny, but it does inspire me to go have a cheeseburger. Signed, A Monster.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: over the top rhetoric and for sure will never convince omnivore humans to become vegans. oberliner, I am surprised by you in this. HIDE

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. No reason to hide the OP.

I think it's dreadful reasoning, but a bit of hyperbole doesn't rise to the level of a hide-worthy insult.

[Reter]

262. Forget the alert, the poster should have gotten a lifetime ban

n/t

[oberliner]

300. A lifetime ban?

Wow - really?

[LanternWaste]

49. I find a relevant and precise difference

I find a relevant and precise difference: one is wholly predicated on the enjoyment of killing sentient animals, the other is not. Allow nuance rather than rigidity to influence your ethics, else your dogma is simply that.

[oberliner]

58. Understood

But I believe that if a person became completely aware of what goes on with the factory farm system (and they are disgusted by those who enjoy killing animals) then they would not want to be a contributor to such cruelty.

[Godhumor]

52. And this kind of tact is exactly why no one takes PETA seriously either

So you're in good company there.

[HERVEPA]

102. Plento of people take Peta seriously.

Elephants being phased out of circuses. Thank Peta.

[oberliner]

126. PETA has transformed the way people think about animal testing and wearing fur

To name just two areas where radical changes have taken place in the last few decades.

[Karmadillo]

130. PETA's effectiveness suggests they're worth taking seriously

http://www.peta.org/about-peta/milestones/

[SunSeeker]

53. Cecil was a critically endangered animal and an icon.

I would be just as outraged if someone chopped down the biggest Giant Sequoia tree in CA, the General Sherman. I would think that person was a monster, but I wouldn't call all plant eaters monsters.

You really do need to pick your battles. Insults generally backfire.

[oberliner]

61. The cruel murder of Cecil could provide an opportunity to reflect on one's own food choices

I just cannot imagine how someone could have complete knowledge and awareness of what goes on at factory farms and still want to contribute to that cruelty if they are a person who cares at all about animals of any kind.

[SunSeeker]

83. I don't eat endangered animals.

Of course meat eaters would like slaughterhouses to be humane. We are not monsters. And we should not be expected to stop eating any meat until each and every slaughterhouse meets PETA standards. The only thing calling us monsters is going to make us "reflect" on is how unreasonable you are being.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

55. Are you a vegan/vegetarian?

Or are you one of the meat-eating folks who like to pull this one out as a means to mock vegans/vegetarians?

If you are one of the former, pulling this one out at this time frankly is annoying as hell. And I say that as a 25+ year vegetarian who uses the occasional humane egg.

If you are the latter, nice try.

[oberliner]

63. Does it not seem incongruous to you?

That people can react so strongly to one type of animal cruelty while blithely participating in another taking place on a massive scale in the country?

It is a disconnect that does not make sense to me.

[sibelian]

330. Cruelty...

Hm.

The difficulty is that you're comparing two totally different processes - the only thing they really have in common is animals dying at human hands. We can certainly adopt a stance that all danger to animals is equally ugly but what's being reacted to with Cecil is the needlessness of it.

[oberliner]

333. I think that both factory farms and trophy hunting are needless

I do not understand why the empathy felt for Cecil does not extend to cows, chickens, and pigs.

I would think that a person who was moved emotionally by Cecil's death could not help but have a similar emotional reaction if they spent an hour or two seeing how these other animals were treated in US factory farms.

[sibelian]

335. I have two slightly contradictory reactions to that

On the one side - you're right. And when people ordinarily unfamiliar with them actually do go to these farms, they often report a very hard shift in attitude.

But - it's very difficult to "legislate" for empathy. We can tell people what to do and convince them of what to think, but I don't think we can very easily decide what people should feel.

I think Cecil's death has taken place in an unconstructed context.... or at least a less fundamental context. All we know is his death and the manner in which it came about. But when I bite into a bacon sandwich I don't want to think about Johnny the Pig, or whatever he was called, because I'm hungry and being hungry is a stronger feeling than wanting to be nice. So I construct a context in which Johnny's death is OK because his fate is ubiquitous/natural/inevitable and - hey presto! - my responsibility towards Johnny is gone.

The "ubiquitous/natural/inevitable" context is a human invention. It's only true because we say so, we have to say so cos bacon's tasty and we're hungry. All the other arguments about eating Johnny being okay are extensions of that constructed context. It's only ubiquitous because we're doing it. It's naturalness is inconsequential, we're human and we don't need to worry about nature. It's inevitability is somehow the sturdiest of the pillars yet totally imaginary.

So we end up to-ing and fro-ing with vegans over the constructed context and we end up misleading each other. Vegans are inadvertantly convinced by self-identifed and defensive omnivores that they're fighting something complex and negotiable like ubiquity, naturalness or inevitability when really what they're fighting is very simple and non-negotiable - pigs being tasty and people being hungry.

It's much easier to throw rocks at someone who, for nothing more than their own amusement, killed a handsome being that reminds us of things about ourselves and each other that we admire.

So, yeah. If our hearts were driven entirely by goodness we'd go hungry. Some people know their own hearts well enough to actually to that... but I don't think that's cultural. I think it's more your personal nature, oberliner.

[oberliner]

363. These are all reasonable points

I agree with everything you've written here.

And, as I have acknowledged elsewhere in this thread, the wording used in my OP was hyperbolic and I realize that it is probably better to not let myself get too carried away when discussing this issue on this board.

If after all is said and done, one or two people end up at least giving a little more thought to factory farms, then I see that as a positive thing and am willing to be seen as foolish (or obnoxious) by the majority of those who read this thread.

It just really seemed like with the outpouring of empathy for Cecil and derision towards the dentist that there was an incongruity between that emotional response and indifference to the animals in factory farms and how they are treated.

But as I said, I let my emotions get the best of me when I posted the OP.

[sibelian]

372. Wah!

(((oberliner)))


Blimey.

Well, respect to you!

Also, I won't deny that I find myself slihgtly intimidated by the discipline of veganism and respect your choice.

If it helps, you've certainly made *me* think about it... /really, if mothing else, I'm far too poor to eat meat and should probably stop rewarding my endurance of my financial circumstances with burgers and let it go...

[BainsBane]

64. My eggs aren't endangered

In fact, by raising livestock, humans ensure their survival as a species.

Fail.

Cecil ate meat too, ya know.

[Warpy]

65. Bullshit.

Animals we eat aren't killed for sport, their heads expensively taxidermied and hung on walls to prove the masculinity of the new owner while the rest is left to rot.

Everything in a meat animal is used, the animal honored in the circle of life this way.

While I loathe factory farming methods, I see no ethical problem with eating meat any more than there is an ethical problem eating the flesh and/or children of plants. It is simply how this planet works from bacteria to us, we all eat each other. Even plants depend on decomposed life, dying in sterile sand.

I eat little meat and when I do, it's not factory farmed.

Some people feel better eating nothing but plant foods. Some people can't tolerate at all, the diet making them feel quite ill. There is no morality about this, only biochemistry.

If people want to be ethically pure, I suggest breatharianism. Just wear a HEPA filter mask to avoid breathing in any bacteria or spores.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

67. How can you tell if someone is a vegan?

Don't worry, they'll fucking tell you.

Which reminds me, I've gotta go flip the chicken I have marinating. Gonna grill it up and put it on the homemade ciabatta bread I made. And ya know what? I'll enjoy every fucking bite.

[mucifer]

225. How can you tell if someone is a meat eater?

Don't worry, they'll fucking tell you.

[pipoman]

340. Not until they are called a "monster" for eating a ham sandwich....

A ridiculous vegan otoh can't just eat and mind their own business, they have to proclaim superiority at every opportunity...

[Major Nikon]

346. Not really true

But it was a pretty clever rework of the old, 'I'm rubber, you're glue' line

[mucifer]

374. Meat eaters always go on and on and on about eating meat.

It's a fact. By doing that they are telling us they eat meat.

You don't want to hear I am vegan. I don't want to hear you eat meat.

I hate that joke. It's stupid and it works both ways if you think about it.

[chalmers]

68. BULL SHIT

try harder

[Matariki]

69. You are entitled to your opinion

no matter how myopic or childish.

[BlueJazz]

71. I am not a Munster.

[Spider Jerusalem]

74. Not really, no

livestock are bred for slaughter. They're killed humanely in most instances, being stunned first (exceptions: halal and kosher slaughter which involve cutting the animal's throat while it's still conscious; NB that this is banned in many countries on grounds of cruelty). The humane slaughter of a farm-raised animal bred specifically for meat (and leather, and other things which are useful) is rather a different thing to killing a wild animal (an endangered one, no less) solely for the thrill of killing (and possibly for taking a trophy).

[oberliner]

128. Day old male baby chicks are dropped, mutilated, and ground up alive

Hundreds of millions of these baby male chickens are born and killed within hours of their birth by being dropped into a grinding machine and torn to pieces by a high speed macerator.

There is nothing humane about that.

[Spider Jerusalem]

173. Which has exactly what to do with killing endangered species for sport?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

[oberliner]

302. Neither actions are humane

My argument is simply that if one finds what the dentist did to the lion to be monstrous then one ought to contemplate the monstrous nature of what goes on in factory farms since both are needlessly cruel towards animals.

[Spider Jerusalem]

339. You are both wrong and stupid.

There really isn't a better way to put that. If you can't see the difference between killing wild animals for no reason other than sport, and slaughtering livestock for food? Then you are not smart enough to be having a conversation on this subject.

[pipoman]

341. Humane?

The male chicks being killed extremely quickly would be unnecessary eaters. Male leghorn chickens (leghorns are the most efficient egg production birds) do not make good meat birds. They eat as much as a Cornish cross...Cornish cross are meat birds...they go from the egg to 3 pound dressed weight in 8 weeks while a leghorn male would barely be a pound live weight in 8 weeks. The groundup chicks are used for pet foods...no waste and little to no suffering.

[darkangel218]

76. Fuck hunting.

Thats all I have to say to you.

[jonno99]

278. Now THAT is a dangerous pastime - imho...nt

[darkangel218]

322. Lol!

[Karmadillo]

77. “What do they know-all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world - about

such as you? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka.”
― Isaac Bashevis Singer

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/14444.Isaac_Bashevis_Singer

Earthlings addresses some of these issues (some scenes are difficult to watch):

[msongs]

79. humans may be sad about this lion but the antelope and water buffalos are celebrating nt

[restorefreedom]

81. there is no question that modern industrial slaughter for profit

is horrendously cruel to the animals it in enslaves, rapes, and kills. One need only do a little googling to find out the horrific nature of most of the deaths that occur on factory farms. And I do think that it's important for people to examine their own food choices and make a decision that they can live with. I personally think everyone should witness what happens in a slaughterhouse and then ask themselves if they still want that burger or steak or chicken wing.

but I think that there is a philosophical difference among many people who kill to consume for food and what the sick perverted disgusting piece of shit did to a trusting animal that is a wildlife icon. I think those of us that have been long time vegetarians and vegans can see a very straight line between what happened to Cecil and what people put on their plates every day. But as someone who did spend the first 20 or so years of life as an omnivore without thinking much about it, I can understand that for most of the population, it's a separate thought process than grieving for Cecil and wanting justice.

I also think that food choices, especially given the state of the planet and the fact that animal agriculture consumes more resources than what humans get out of it, is an important discussion in its own right. But I think right now people just want to be really pissed about Cecil.

you did bring up an important issue though.

[oberliner]

103. Thanks for the thoughtful response

I personally have a hard time understanding how people don't also feel that what happens to millions of animals raised for food every day is sick, perverted, and disgusting.

[restorefreedom]

200. many choose to stay uninformed

i can't tell you how many times i have started to tell someone where their meat came from and they say "stop i don't want to hear it! i will never be able to eat steak/bbq chicken/whatever again!"

head. sand. insert.

also many people have been misguided by unknowlegable medical people that eveyone "needs" some meat to live. thankfully that idea is starting to change.

[Logical]

87. Lol, nice try! Yes, i kill cows illegally and pose with them! Nt

[Adrahil]

98. Well, I have taken pics of a particularly good-looking steak! nt

[Logical]

101. Pizza too! Nt

[oberliner]

100. My assertion is that the cruelty of the factory farm system is horrific

If one is moved and angered by the killing of Cecil, I would imagine that it might to be possible to also be moved and angered by the treatment and killing of cows.

[Adrahil]

109. That's fair enough. I oppose such cruelty and buy...

Locally raised meat whenever I can.

[Major Nikon]

347. So what do you think happens to the rodents and insects that munch on vegetable crops?

Typically they are killed by poisons which create a slow, lingering death, or they may agonize in traps that don't kill them instantly. Not to mention the countless other vertebrates chewed up by mechanized farm equipment and other animals that starve to death due to destruction of habitat.

Meanwhile one grass fed cow can provide the protein requirements for one person for 2 years and very few other animals are sacrificed in the production effort.

So who really is the bigger monster? Someone who eats things which result in the slow and very agonizing deaths of countless creatures, or someone who eats a cow which results in 1 animal death delivered near instantaneously.

Does such indignation demonstrated by the OP blind one from reality?

Enjoy your next meal.

[DirkGently]

116. No, those two things are not the same.

Man shooting protected lion for thrills ? people eating meat for food.

Being vegan is fine. Asking people to think about the often horrendous conditions in industrialized animal farming is GOOD.

Let's do that.

But the argument that we absolutely should not ever kill an animal for any reason is a different one from the complaint about the dentist who paid a huge fee to go all the way to an African animal preserve, lure a protected animal out of a park, and shoot, stalk, and kill it for a "trophy" while it slowly died over 40 hours.

You can feel that way, and to the extent we all want to discuss more humane treatment of animals raised for food a lot more people (including me) will agree with you, but there is a clear distinction between pointless thrill killing and eating animals as a food source, which humans have always done.

Meat is not "murder." Not to everyone, anyway.

[oberliner]

132. Both are monstrous

If one is disgusted by the actions of the dentist which resulted in the killing of this lion, then I would think that one would also be disgusted by the torture and slaughter of animals that goes on in factory farms across the United States and would want to have as little to do with contributing to such cruelty as possible.

[DirkGently]

140. Agree it's an opportunity to talk about both.

I do not think the thrill killing of rare species is on an equal moral footing with killing animals for food.

Pragmatically, I see a case to say we allow more harm to be done in industrialized farming wherein animals raised for food are horribly treated, but I don't think people (including this one) who too thoughtlessly down our ham and eggs take the kind of sociopathic glee in killing something that people are seeing in this dentist / poacher.

One is a problem of food production in a large industrialized, capitalist country; the other is a disturbing quirk of the armed, wealthy, and entitled.

We can fix industrialized meat production to make it, if not acceptable to people who believe in never killing an animal, at least less cruel and more in accordance with the way animals live and die naturally.

I'm not sure what we do with rich psychos who take pride or pleasure in their ability to personally kill a rare animal that has no chance against them.

I worry we are electing them to public office.

[oberliner]

142. Good points

Personally, I find the cruel and despicable treatment of animals raised for food in this country to be as immoral as thrill killing of rare species, but I respect your point of view on this subject.

[closeupready]

117. Livestock can not be 'murdered'. They are slaughtered.

There are laws which govern the acts known as murder and slaughter.

Other than that, with all due respect, I only have a chuckle for this silliness.

[oberliner]

145. What about wild animals?

Would you say that the dentist murdered Cecil or no?

[closeupready]

156. No, absolutely not. He poached Cecil, and killed him.

But Cecil was not human, and therefore, the dentist would not be subject to laws governing the act of murder.

[oberliner]

164. Fair enough

I did not fully understand that the term murder is meant to be limited to the killing of humans, not animals. I will be more careful about word choice in the future.

[closeupready]

166. I didn't intend to chastise your vocabulary, but rather,

simply to point out that murder has a definition understood generally to apply NOT to the act (by humans) of killing non-human life forms, but specifically to the killing of one human by another human.

Anyway, peace to you.

[hobbit709]

119. Another case of altitude sickness atop a high horse.

[oberliner]

136. If one finds the actions of the dentist to be monstrous

Then I would think one would also find the cruelty and torture of factory farming to be monstrous as well.

[Scootaloo]

122. Killing for food is a different thing from killing for fun, oberliner

This dude spent considerable money, traveled to the far end of another continent, paid more money, bribed guides, all with the express purpose of luring an animal out of a legally-protected sanctuary, so he could wound it, chase it for two days, then kill it so he could have a trophy. he did it for the sheer joy and bragging rights of having killed this particular animal, nothing more.

Quite a different thing from taking a three-hour drive to your stand in the woods hoping to bag a deer for the winter, I'd say.

[oberliner]

133. Would the dentist's actions have been less repugnant if he had eaten the lion?

I would assert that they would not.

Primarily, though, I am suggesting that one considers the torture and cruelty that is endemic to the factory farming system that exists in this country and perhaps adjusts their food choices as a result of the compassion that one may feel for what is being done to those animals.

[WinkyDink]

159. But that question is literally nonsensical.

[oberliner]

172. I think killing for food can be as cruel as killing for sport

I do not believe that one is necessarily better or worse than the other, by definition.

I feel that it is possible that an animal killed for sport could be killed much more humanely than one raised for food.

The factory farm system in the US, for example, is steeped in cruelty, torture, and inhumanity.

[Scootaloo]

171. He didn't eat the lion, as far as I'm aware.

So it's not even a point to try to make.

[dbackjon]

125. Bullshit

[ZombieHorde]

129. There are few things more offensive than suggesting people change their diet.

When I was vegan many people became very offended even though I never suggested it to anyone. Just the thought of it seems to offend some people. People would sometimes tell me about all the meat they ate or were going to eat that day, but I never understood the point of that. You see it in veggie threads too. I'd just say "okay." When people asked me why I was vegan I would tell them the sooner we ended our reliance upon animals the sooner we could wipe them off the face of the planet. This wasn't my true feeling, but it prevented boring debates.

[closeupready]

154. Same sorts of people who go, "were her genitals mutilated,"

upon discussion related to muslim women you know. I mean, a question like that having nothing to do with the topic at hand, coming out of nowhere...?

Though I am an enthusiastic carnivore, and love eating meat, I will keep at arm's length distance people who seem to enjoy antagonizing people who merely hold unpopular beliefs.

[TheSarcastinator]

165. what incredibly offensive bullshit

to compare those who have issues with the massive logic fail in the OP to those who support FMG is downright crap. Shame on you.

[closeupready]

168. Same thing. 100%. S. A. M. E.

[Go Vols]

134. lol

I can look out the window from where I am sitting and see all the meat I will be eating next year wandering around the barn lot and field.

Got 17 eggs today.Can look out of another window and see most vegetables and fruit I will eat next year.

I don't live in a factory tho.

So "Eating animals = mass, mechanized murder" is bullshit when applied to all.

[oberliner]

141. Do you raise your own chickens?

If so, I would think you would share my feelings about factory farms.

[Go Vols]

153. Yes,I do have chickens.

I don't care for factory farms in the least,but that's me.

To each his own.

[Liberal Veteran]

135. Eating meat is not the same sport killing.

You might as well say: If you kill someone in self-defense you are just as much a monster as a serial killer who takes trophies from his victims.

You've created a false equivalency for your argument and you can certainly find a better way to proselytize than what you have proposed.

[oberliner]

138. Animals are being tortured and murdered on a massive scale in order to accommodate meat eating

It seems that the compassion for Cecil can extend to these other animals as well.

[jonno99]

361. "Animals are being tortured and murdered on a massive scale in order to accommodate meat eating"

The problem is that you have started from a false premise.

1. Animals are NOT being "tortured" - torture involves intent.
2. Neither are animals being "murdered", as murder is the unlawful killing of a human.

As someone else stated, you have set up a false equivalence between (big) game hunters and simple "meat eaters".

Does that mean that animals do not suffer? If not handled humanely, of course. Does that make it torture & murder? No.

[roody]

148. I'm almost a vegan and I disagree.

[WinkyDink]

158. He wasn't going to eat Cecil for vitamins and minerals and protein.

[BillZBubb]

161. Absolute nonsense.

Let me know when your hero, the lion killing dentist, EATS his victim.

No one who eats meat bought in a store gets there jollies from the killing of the animals. We don't mount their heads on the walls. For you to equate the two is sophomoric, to use a gentle an adjective as possible.

[oberliner]

239. The meat you buy in a store was once an animal that was tortured and killed

I am not sure why the disgust felt over the killing of Cecil would not also extend to feeling disgusted about the killing of the animal that eventually became meat in a store.

[TheSarcastinator]

162. Brilliant Reduction to Absurdity

Sport hunting endangered species is not equal to eating animals for food and your attempt to make them so is a pretty massive fail. What's really ridiculous about your post is that if you left out the attempt at equivocation/false analogy and simply focused on the ethical, moral, economic and environmental consequences of meat-eating, you would persuade many more people that this rather weak attempt at bad rhetoric.

[oberliner]

170. Both activities seem monstrous to me

I feel like the shock, anger, and disgust at the killing of Cecil ought to be able to be extended to the cruelty, torture, and killing on a massive scale of animals raised for food in the US.

I realize that many people do not share these feelings.

[quizzle]

167. delusional vegans thinking plants dont feel pain

[Warren Stupidity]

169. I agree but of course you are going to be hammered for pointing out the obvious.

We love our pets and our cute foreign predators, and goats, who doesn't love goats? But we don't want to be reminded that the cow we are munching on had a life, felt pain and pleasure, enjoyed the company of other cows, and had a right to enjoy her life.

[Daemonaquila]

176. Logic fail.

Sorry, veganvangelism fails basic biology and understanding of our place in the food chain as just another kind of animal. The only thing you're dead right about is rejecting the cruelty of factory farming. Just because we eat meat like other omnivores, doesn't make it right for us to support torturing our prey first.

[Demonaut]

177. 5 DU recs.......enough said

[Major Nikon]

186. I recommend a more fruitful pastime

[restorefreedom]

236. this was much needed lol after a bad day

thanks

[oberliner]

287. What will you be doing at lunch time?

Maybe reconsidering your food choices as a result of this thought-provoking OP?

[Major Nikon]

337. I'll be totally enjoying the left over carnitas from last night

Thanks for asking.

[oberliner]

364. It's a good thing I don't speak Spanish!

I am going to assume carnitas means kale.

[Major Nikon]

369. ...

[Demonaut]

295. nice but not necessary, seriously, a kind of dickish move

of a certain mindset, "the righteous"

get a life

[oberliner]

307. Made it up to double digits!

Slow and steady wins the race.

[Rex]

179. I understand, you like what the guy did and are pissed off at GD for

calling him a monster. Not very original, but you tried. OF COURSE the two issues are nothing alike, the dentist you like so much is a 'sports' hunter and does not eat the meat he kills.

MOST people OTOH, kill and eat their own food when they hunt...you can yell at them too all you want. Just another shit stirring thread by you...almost one a day now is it?

[oberliner]

324. That is not true

I think what the dentist did was absolutely awful and heartbreaking.

[Fla_Democrat]

180. That's cute

/pat

[Telcontar]

185. Okay, if thats how it has to be

I'm comfortable with killing animals. I'd usually say for need, but since we are labeling in the extreme, I guess it just doesn't matter.

Two legs good! Four legs, blast em!

[Shoulders of Giants]

189. vegans are "monsters" by your own definition as well.

Unless vegans make sure they never step on an ant, never use computer or printers with animal parts, never use tires with animal parts, never use plastic bags, crayons, don't smoke, etc. Its pretty much impossible to live a life avoiding products made from animal parts.

http://www.businessinsider.com/15-surprising-things-that-contain-animal-products-2014-3

[uppityperson]

355. Also plenty of little animals and birds are killed while harvesting crops.

[NCTraveler]

190. I fully accept the "murder" aspect.

I fight against the cruelty aspect. I have zero issue with humans killing animals for food using the most humane means possible at that time and place. That means, back in the day, I consider it was ethical to take a buffalo with a bow or spear. Today, in some areas, I would still find that acceptable. Simply the most humane way possible.

[LostOne4Ever]

194. I somewhat agree with you

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal] And yes I do consider myself a monster for eating meat.

I am a being perfectly capable of living without preying upon, or causing the death of other thinking sentient creatures, and that makes me evil in my book.

One day, I hope to rise above that, but I know it is beyond me at the moment. And knowing how I have failed to live up to my own ideals, and knowing how we are all biologically programmed to behave this way, I don't think it is right to condemn others for it. Changing one's lifestyle to live to such a stringent ideal is just not possible for most people.

Eggs/cheese/milk/wool can all be procured cruelty free. So maybe you should say vegetarian as opposed to vegan. Even then, it is not entirely true.

For instance, when an animal has already been killed and purchased by others and offered to you for consumption, I think it just as wrong to refuse and have the meat to rot and go to waste. It is one thing for an animal to die, and it is another thing entirely for an animal to die in vein. At least when we eat the meat, it death helped another creature live. Not meaningless like that lion's death was.

It is hard to live in this world without causing unnecessary death. But, that doesn't mean that we, or more specifically that I, shouldn't at least try. Again, that makes me a monster by my own ideals.[/font]

[oberliner]

326. Thanks for the thoughtful response

I would point out that the vast majority of the eggs sold in the US are not procured cruelty free, but I certainly agree that it is possible to do so.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

195. How dare you lecture anyone who eats meat, you plant and vegetable mass-murdering hypocrite! nt

[ryan_cats]

197. Typical sanctimonious vegan

Typical sanctimonious vegan.

I accept that vegans don't eat meat or use animal products. Yet at work or whenever someone wants to go to lunch, it's always the vegan who objects to wherever everyone else wants to go because they don't want to eat a salad. They want to bask in moral superiority but they don't want to suffer for even one meal and they always think their veganism overrides everyone else's choices. No one wants them to go to lunch anymore.
Hypocrites.

This Cecil the lion thing has nothing to do with vegan's or their bloated sense if moral superiority. It's due to someone who wanted to kill to get a trophy who paid over $50k to kill this lion.

[oberliner]

327. We are not at lunch - this is a discussion forum

I just don't understand why the mistreatment and killing of a cow because a person wants to eat a hamburger is not considered objectionable, whereas the mistreatment and killing of lion because a person wants to get a trophy is considered monstrous. Neither action is necessary for survival and both result in the death of an innocent animal. I would think the empathy felt for what happened to Cecil would extend to cows, chickens, and pigs who meet similar fates, and, in most cases, suffer under horrific conditions during their short lives.

[hifiguy]

198. Killing animals that have been raised for the express purpose of being consumed

as food is a parsec or two away from killing endangered animals to feel manly, at least in my world view. YMMV. And human beings are omnivores, speaking from an evolutionary viewpoint. Our closest cousins, the chimpanzees, will eat meat whenever they can get it, even if that means killing another chimp, usually one from outside the band. YMMV.

And many, many animals eat other animals. Lions in particular do so.

[restorefreedom]

203. from the pov of human psychology you are right

those two actions are very different and very differently motivated.

unfortunately for the animals, most of whom are advanced vertebrates with the capacity to feel tremendous pain as well as emotional anguish, the suffering is the same.

[oberliner]

304. The pain and suffering of the animals being consumed ought to be considered

What goes on in factory farms cannot be described as anything but horrific. If a person cares about the welfare of animals, I cannot imagine them wanting to have any part of that once they are made aware of what goes on. As far as I am concerned the barbaric treatment of those animals is as condemnable as what the dentist did.

[Iggo]

204. Nope.

[HFRN]

211. ever looked at the front of your car bumper and windshield?

i do assume that you are a vehicle traveling vegan?

[restorefreedom]

238. i live in area where there are many butterflies and moths

i dreaded driving in summer. but this year i discovered that slowing by just a few mph i can avoid most collisions. i estimate that this small change is saving about 500 tiny lepidopterans a year.

it makes me happy to do that small thing.

[HFRN]

241. I've saved a few butterflys by swerving

but it's been hell on my fenders

[Positrons]

212. I'm good thanks...

[fishwax]

213. I don't believe that eating meat is the same as sport killing

[Taitertots]

214. This OP is nonsense for the following reasons:

-Cecil wasn't killed for food

-All meat doesnt come animals that were treated cruelly

No reasonable person would conflate those two situations.

[restorefreedom]

243. first of all,

love the handle, taitertots

most people do not equate these two and see that the murder of cecil was for the immature self gratification of a psycho pos.

and sport killing is definitely not the same for the humans as animal raising for consumption. but unfortunately for the animals, the suffering is the same. and most meat, dairy and egg animals suffer horribly. other than the rare small family operation, most are in intensive industrial operations. their lives are hell and their deaths are often tortuous.

10 billion land animals in this country alone. that does not count sea animals such as fish, and the thousands of turtles, etc referred to as bycatch but die anyway. and of course the male baby chicks that are suffocated or ground alive are not counted.

a very sad reality.

[Liberal_in_LA]

215. vegan here! but I agonize over buying pet food. try to get cruelty free

[restorefreedom]

246. i do not know if dogs can be vegan

i hear that they can be more veg/omnivore than cats.

cats need lots of meat. sucks.

if you can afford it, the organic versions or ones made with human grade ingredients might be a tad better. assuming your pet will like it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

275. I have cats. whole food raw meat has animal welfare ratings

[restorefreedom]

281. i forgot about their ratings

so do you do homemade diet?

cooked or,raw? people seem to either love or hate raw for cats

[Liberal_in_LA]

283. I am mostly feeding the bought cat food but introducing home cooked meat

They go crazy for it. Carrying their hunk of meat into a quiet corner to eat alone
Lol

[restorefreedom]

288. that is so cute! big wild cats in a little body. nt

[TransitJohn]

216. Tell me you did it for the lulz....

[mucifer]

218. Awesome post! I wish I had the guts to write it.

I'm feeling the same.

I would have written what you did but I didn't want to be bashed.

Thanks Oberliner!

[oberliner]

228. Thanks so much for your supportive post

I did get pretty heartily bashed, but I maintain that I raised a fair point (with admittedly provocative phrasing).

All the best!

[KamaAina]

219. Nope. Cecil was a wild animal.

The others are domesticated. Big difference.

[Shrek]

223. Only a monster would eat plants

They are immobile and defenseless.

In varying degrees, animals have some capacity for evasion, escape, and self-defense.

[The2ndWheel]

229. Yeah, life requires death

Vegans are still eating living things.

[snooper2]

226. Way to get a shitload of replies, makes one feel cool online LOL

For history...

this is what we call a SJW thread



Unless the OP is actually going to local farms and letting the goats and chickens out of their pens Got Pictures?

[restorefreedom]

247. what does sjw mean? nt

[oberliner]

249. Thanks

It is a good feeling.

Your criticism is certainly a reasonable one.

[Historic NY]

234. Lion burgers...what are you sick.

doesn't the bible say its okay.

[Ilsa]

242. I've stayed off the Cecil threads because I would feel hypocritical

from the standpoint of not being a vegan. This is the only Cecil thread I've posted in.

My only reasonable, nonhypocritical criticism of the dentist would be that he was hunting for a trophy. I can't stand trophy hunting.

I think your OP is a little over the top in how you presented this perspective, though.

[oberliner]

248. Fair enough

I don't agree that hunting for a trophy is intrinsically worse than buying a cheeseburger. Both involve the unnecessary slaughter of an animal, but I realize that most people feel differently.

I also do think I could've chosen my words a bit more carefully with the original post.

[Ilsa]

255. I can relate to the intensity of emotion

You must feel about this subject. I can respect that passion.

I think most people can rationalize mass food production injustices because they can't easily adapt either habit-wise, or because of nutrition prejudices, or because they believe they can't afford to change. This kind of change isn't easy. But I respect anyone who has been disciplined enough to accomplish veganism.

Thanks for reminding us of the planks within our own eyes. I personally would like to return to vegetarianism, but it's difficult to maintain with my family.

[brooklynite]

245. I thought "holier than thou" threads were supposed to come out on Tuesday...

[restorefreedom]

250. cute.

but seriously, many committed vegans who have studied the issue of factory intensive animal raising (i will not call it farming) do not see a huge difference or any difference here. from the human perspective it is vastly different. the motives are different. but the animals involved experience the same suffering, and many of us who have studied this have seen and heard things we can never unsee or unhear.

the difference many see between sport killing and animal consumption comes from the human perspective and the difference in motives. for meat, the objective is not to kill for fun or to cause suffering, but to get meat. in sport killing, well we know what the motive is.

but when you switch perspectives and see it from the animals' eyes, the suffering and death are the same, no matter what the motivation of the humans was. that is where things come together between sport killing and killing for meat.

[ileus]

252. Ummm....tasty meat.

Jumping Lion on a pogo stick....is eating meat or a big game hunt the biggest thing we can find to whine about here??? WTF...

[LiberalElite]

264. Come on, Olberliner, please

can you tone it down? Do you really think hitting people over the head (verbally) is advancing the cause?

P.S.: I'm a animal rights activist and +25-yr. vegetarian but (the horror) inconsistent vegan.

[oberliner]

267. It's an emotional topic

Perhaps the wording could have been more sensitive to the feelings of others, but I truly feel like what is going on in factory farms is absolutely despicable and almost never addressed. In the aftermath of everyone feeling such empathy for Cecil and such antipathy towards the dentist, I think it would be good to reflect on the mistreatment, torture, and killing that is intrinsic to the factory farming system that produces most of the meat and eggs found in stores and restaurants.

[LiberalElite]

268. I get it but

maybe this post should have been the first one. Count to 10 and re read it and then post. Just some unasked for perspective from someone on the same side as you.

[fadedrose]

265. If everyone stopped eating animal products

who would raise animals, send for the vet, feed them, clean them, etc....there would be no animals except for dogs and cats, and even they need meat to live.

I don't believe in these chicken factories, and some other ghastly unclean inhuman killing methods, but were it not for humans eating animal products, we would have to put them all to sleep.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to cut down on meat products. Also, there are regulations and follow-ups to see if livestock is cared for and disease free. The farmers breed these animals and take pride in their health and insure that offspring are cared for. They get vaccinations that if the owners did not sell the stock for food, where would they get the money to take care of them and give them a decent life until it was time....

I hate veal - cows have no chance to enjoy their lives.

I feel guilty everytime I cook meat or chicken so I know what you mean, it is wrong to kill animals. But the way it was set up before any of us were born, it can't be undone now.

We need smaller population growth, better growing conditions for enough crops to feed everyone (look at CA, and the drought, the food basket of the country...) If everyone only ate vegetables and fruit, wheat, oatmeal and rice, there would be a food shortage in no time at all...and high prices....

Your heart's in the right place, but it's too late. It would take an asteroid to change life on this planet.

[LiberalElite]

266. Nonsense.

Let's just give up now? We need an asteroid to change anything? Maybe we should all vote Republican next year. It's hopeless anyway.

[fadedrose]

269. I don't think it's nonsense

Did you read the post? What will happen to all the healthy animals that responsible farmers grow at great cost (feed, shots, vet)? do you think they are going to raise cows and bulls, pigs and sheep, ducks and chickens, until the animals die of old age?

Or do you think vegans should take care of the farmers financial needs if they give up husbandry? Prairies are good for livestock, not so much for fruits and vegetables.

Wheat for bread - you need some kind of fat, eggs, etc.

There is not enough produce grown in this country to feed our growing population....

It's either an asteroid, euthanasia, or many many abortions..or have us old people walk over a cliff after the age of 70, or sooner if need be. There is not enough lettuce for everyone....

[LiberalElite]

279. I've been a vegetarian for more than 25 years. Some days

I even eat like a vegan. We are a very small minority in this country. When I first went vegetarian in the late '80s, a good friend's reaction was (this is verbatim) "WHAT? WHAT WILL THEY DO WITH ALL THE CHICKENS??!!" as if I alone were eating the millions of chickens killed each year for food. It would take many many years for the use of animal products to end. Many years. Animal products are EVERYWHERE. This does not mean we shouldn't try.

Or in the alternative, let's wait on that asteroid and in the meantime vote Republican because it's all hopeless.

[fadedrose]

294. Yes, it is all hopeless

I figured that out years ago. Nothing is fair, or right as long as people are involved.

I spend a good bit on feeding birds, and the dog. It hurts my budget to buy grapes for robins, fat for suet for woodpeckers and other moochers, jelly for orioles, and seeds for the birds, but I love them and feel terrible if something happens to any of them, even the less desirable ones - starlings and grackles...they eat here too. The dog is old and gets special cooked food, glucosomine chondroitin MSM Joint Soother and Omega 3-6-9.... No puppies to sell, she was a rescue dog and was spayed....but I can't afford to feed cows, horses, chickens, pigs, etc., until they die of old age, but I do like eggs and milk and cheese. All these come from animals.

I stopped going to doctors because of deductibles, but not one bird has had to do without because of my budget cuts.

Farmers can't do that, and just feeding pets and birds is a great cost for me, and is totally unnecessary as you think people shouldn't eat meat, the hell with the folks who raise them....

[GitRDun]

270. A ridiculous presumption. This OP should be locked.

Anyone that eats meat is a monster who is an accessory to animal cruelty and murder.

Yes, it only follows that anyone who consumes corn or a corn based product, is a Monsanto and GMO loving, environment polluting, water hogging monster who is an accessory to eco-terrorism because they "participate" in the system.

There's a HUGE difference between the trophy hunting MN sociopath and most hunters. Somehow you drag the rest of us into it?

You get the goofy post of the week award.

[oberliner]

280. My assertion is that the cruelty of the factory farm system is horrific.

If one is moved and angered by the killing of Cecil, I would imagine that it might to be possible to also be moved and angered by the treatment and killing of cows (for example).

You are calling the dentist a "sociopath" for killing a lion, but you seem to think it is goofy/ridiculous to cast similar aspersions on someone who chooses to eat an animal that was subjected to the cruelty that goes on in factory farms (which is where 99 percent of farm animals in the US are raised).

Edit to add: Would you call someone who stomped on a day old baby chick a sociopath?

[GitRDun]

293. He's not a sociopath for simply killing the lion.

They illegally baited the lion out of the preserve. He also got caught doing the same thing with a bear. In that case, they drove the bear back into legal territory after the kill. My guess is that as many exotic animals as he's killed there are additional illegal kills on his track record. Add the sexual harassment in there and you have a classic sociopath, e.g., lack of conscience for his unlawful / bad deeds. That is pointing out a fact, not casting aspersions.

A lot of what goes on at factory farms should be illegal. I saw a cow concentration camp first hand on a drive thru Texas. It was simply disgusting. My guess is most DU'ers feel this way. We are not, however, monsters because we eat a hamburger.

Further, I am pointing out a fact about someone in the news, outside DU.

You are calling DU members who eat meat monsters, accessories to animal cruelty and murder. That is what makes your post goofy, and a violation of DU TOS.

[Orrex]

271. I for one will only eat lion-killing dentists and wildly hyperbolic proseltyzers.

[fadedrose]

276. Good for you Orrex

When you get enough of those lion-killing dentists, call me and we'll dine together...

That's all there is is those dentists because livestock and chicken farmers will have given up raising animals to sell and are living on welfare, just petting them and feeding them with government subsidies.

It might mean a raise in taxes.

[oberliner]

285. That seems reasonable

Look my only point is that if you think what the dentist did was monstrous then please also consider the monstrous nature of the factory farm.

[Orrex]

289. We should definitely ban lion factories.

[oberliner]

291. I am not sure you understand what a factory farm is

Here is a link if you are interested in learning more:

https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/what-factory-farm

[Orrex]

292. It's where they grow noses, right?

Oh wait. That's an olfactory farm.

[oberliner]

296. Nice

I like your sense of humor.

Anyway, check out the link if you are interested. If not, all the best!

[pnwmom]

277. Yeah, right. Everyone you know who isn't a vegan is a monster.

You must have few friends.

[oberliner]

284. People have called the dentist who killed the lion a monster

I have seen that hyperbolic language used with respect to him more than once and I would ask those who believe that to consider whether they participate in the factory farm system because what goes on there is absolutely horrific with respect to animals.

Personally I think neither are monsters, even though I am strongly opposed to both of those choices.

[Iggo]

343. "Unless you are a vegan, you are just as much a monster as the lion-killing dentist."

You meant zero amounts of monster, then.

Got it.

[840high]

282. unrec for BS

[SusanCalvin]

286. True to an extent.

I have often thought about hunting or raising my own animals as more humane. Or , as you say, going vegan. I compromise by buying organic and free range whenever I can.

Nevertheless, that over-privileged, trophy-hunting jerk is, well, a jerk.

[sarisataka]

297. I have considered

But concluded I like bacon too much to give it up.

However given that meat is not going to be labeled with the country of origin I do plan to change my buying habits. Instead of the grocery I will buy direct from local farms and take up hunting again to supplement purchased meat.

[RichVRichV]

301. It could be argued that vegans are as big of monsters as meat eaters.

The mass plant farming industry dumps unknown tons of pesticides and other cides into animal eco-systems every year, not to mention the constant clearing of land for more planting, and the massive amounts of water it sucks up from everywhere to maintain yields. This results in destruction of habitats, and massive harm and deaths to animals who can't adapt. So unless you eat organically grown plants 100% of the time you're just as guilty as meat eaters who eat factory farmed meats.

Let's face it. The issue here isn't plant eater vs meat eater. It's about our horrendous factory farm practices. And it's not limited to just the meat side of it.

[demosincebirth]

305. I don't like vegatables.

[Sugarcoated]

306. LOL

Riiiiight.

[d_r]

308. this combine

runs over insects, amphibians (frogs, toads, salamanders), reptiles (tortoise, lizard, snake), and mammals (mole, field mouse, ground hog, maybe even a fawn).

[Snow Leopard]

311. I ate a bunch of sausage

On the BBQ , it was delicious

[DisgustipatedinCA]

314. Unless you are Voltron, you're just as much a monster as the Lion King dentist.

[LeftyMom]

315. Obeying a lifetime of cultural programming isn't monsterous.

For most people it's not even an active decision at all, it's just the unquestioned way things are.

I see the point you're trying to make, but instead of telling people that they're hypocrites why not gently widen the discussion?

LM, vegan since 2002

[oberliner]

332. People have had a strong emotional, angry, visceral reaction to what the dentist did to Cecil

There are very few people saying that we should gently widen the discussion about why hunting endangered lions might be wrong.

The way people are reacting to hunting endangered lions is the same way I react to the mistreatment and killing of animals that occurs on a massive scale in factory farms across the US.

It is hard for me to understand how, if someone actually knows what goes on in those places, they can continue to be a part of that process, especially if they were impacted emotionally by what the dentist did.

[Violet_Crumble]

318. Monster? That's way too mild. You need to take lessons from Morrissey...

Morrissey Compares Carnivores To Pedophiles

“I see no difference between eating animals and paedophilia. They are both rape, violence, murder,” declared the singer when asked “What is it that prompted you to stop eating meat?” The Meat Is Murder-singer continued, saying, “If I’m introduced to anyone who eats beings, I walk away.”

“Imagine, for example, if you were in a nightclub and someone said to you “Hello, I enjoy bloodshed, throat-slitting and the destruction of life,” well, I doubt if you’d want to exchange phone numbers,” he concluded, continuing his long-standing and vocal criticism of those dastardly flesh-eaters.

http://musicfeeds.com.au/news/morrissey-compares-carnivores-to-pedophiles/

And if that doesn't do the trick, then send people to a Moz concert, where halfway through 'Meat Is Murder' he can lecture the audience about how eating meat is committing a holocaust on animals and stuff. Only the most hardened, uncaring folk will go and have some KFC on the way back to the hotel after that...

Heifer whines could be human cries
Closer comes the screaming knife
This beautiful creature must die
This beautiful creature must die
A death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER

And the flesh you so fancifully fry
Is not succulent, tasty or kind
It's death for no reason
And death for no reason is MURDER

And the calf that you carve with a smile
Is MURDER
And the turkey you festively slice
Is MURDER
Do you know how animals die ?

Kitchen aromas aren't very homely
It's not "comforting", cheery or kind
It's sizzling blood and the unholy stench
Of MURDER

It's not "natural", "normal" or kind
The flesh you so fancifully fry
The meat in your mouth
As you savour the flavour
Of MURDER

NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
NO, NO, NO, IT'S MURDER
Oh...and who hears when animals cry ?

Sorry, Moz. Not hearing you. I could MURDER for an egg and bacon roll right now!

[oberliner]

319. Only as much of one as the dentist

So I am saying that if a person feels that the dentist is a monster for what he did to the lion then one ought to consider if one has a role in what goes on in factory farms in the US.

[Violet_Crumble]

320. Nah, you've got to ramp it up a notch to get through to these evil carnivores...

Monster is so boring. Study Morrissey. See how successful he's been. A total lack of finesse is required when lecturing other people about what they eat, especially if it involves lions...

[oberliner]

329. I don't think carnivores are evil

I just think that the empathy felt towards what happened to Cecil could be extended to other animals who are mistreated and killed.

[Paladin]

365. And yet you used the term "monster" in your OP.

Your pleas for empathy ring a little hollow, given the tone you set from the very beginning.

[oberliner]

366. "As much a monster as the lion-killing dentist"

Meaning to whatever degree a person thinks the dentist who killed Cecil is a monster.

My POV is that the cruelty, mistreatment, and killing of animals in factory farms is as monstrous as the mistreatment and killing of the lion by the dentist.

Personally, I believe neither the dentist nor a person who eats meat is a monster, although I am strongly opposed to both actions.

[oberliner]

334. Planned Parenthood?

I don't understand.

They are a non-profit that works in support of reproductive health for women.

[George II]

342. Animals that are killed for food are not shot first with a bow and arrow....

....and then stalked through the woods for hours until they're too tired to run anymore, and then shot to death.

[oberliner]

344. I would assert that what goes on in factory farms is similarly cruel

Would you agree?

[ileus]

345. Lions, Tigers, and Beef...oh My.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

349. so....

when are we closing down Food Lion?


(joke for those who know about Food Lion)

[randome]

353. There's one not far from where I live.

I'd never go there, though. It's not a 'real' restaurant, IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[randome]

352. I see your point but the difference is cruelty as reflected by society.

We are not the same as animals so we should not judge ourselves like them.

We do have animal natures in our past but our intelligence sets us apart.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Lil Missy]

354. Thank you. For letting me know that I should never take anything you say seriously. n/t

[oberliner]

356. I would urge you to reconsider

Admittedly, the factory farm issue for me is one that I get very emotional about and sometimes that leads to expressing an opinion in a manner that upon reflection appears to be needlessly hyperbolic.

With that being said, I am sure we have many views in common even if you find this particular opinion of mine to be a ridiculous one.

For example, I would do everything in my power to fight against any sort of bigotry directed towards gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered individuals.

[Lil Missy]

358. Thank you for that thoughtful response.

As you say - Fair enough.

[Avalux]

359. I'm sorry NO. Trying to guilt people by extreme comparisons isn't helping anything.

As a non-meat eater (I still eat eggs and dairy), I would never take that tactic with anyone I'm trying to convince to give up consuming meat. Being militant about it never changes anyone's mind. Think about that, and then maybe try presenting facts in a reasonable manner if you really want to bring people around to your point of view.

[oberliner]

362. Would you similarly object to folks trying to guilt people into quitting trophy hunting?

Imagine that you feel just as strongly about factory farms as many people do about trophy hunting. If the former behavior filled you with the same sort of emotional fervor as the latter one, would you not express your views in a similar matter?

It seems that when people post forceful opinions about trophy hunting they are rarely chided for their anti-trophy hunting militancy, whereas with respect to factory farms, the same sort of passion (for an activity that is also despicable, in my opinion, and undeniable causes great pain and suffering to many millions of animals) is met with derision.

[Avalux]

370. I've been there, was an activist with PETA for years.

Here's what I've learned.

Trophy hunting, especially in this highly charged situation where a well-known, named lion was lured and killed, is repulsive to most people because they are NOT big game trophy hunters. It's easy for them to attack and demonize the hunter because their hands are clean - they never have and never will do such a thing. This one person now says he's sorry after the barrage of hate from others.

Factory farming is a different matter and I really have no good answers on how to convince people to stop eating meat, especially meat from animals that are bred, live a short life of hell, and are slaughtered for no other reason than for human consumption. The problem here is that the majority of people consume meat from this source and aren't willing to face the reality of it. It's very very difficult to convince them, showing them videos of the horror ins't enough...guilt doesn't work.

I've been far more successful when I frame veganism and vegetarianism as a better way for the planet and our health.

[Deadshot]

367. Eating animals isn't murder.

If it was, we'd all be in prison.

The arguments I'm reading here are the same arguments I see being used from anti-abortionists. They say getting an abortion is murdering a baby, even though legally it isn't murder.

[oberliner]

371. Understood

Someone else pointed that out as well and I acknowledged that murder was not the correct term to use. I will make sure to avoid using it in that context in future since it only applies to humans killing other humans.

My assertion is that the cruelty of the factory farm system is horrific. If one is moved and angered by the killing of Cecil, I would imagine that it might to be possible to also be moved and angered by the treatment and killing of cows.

[whatchamacallit]

368. *100% right* If lion was good eating we'd be breeding and slaughtering them without remorse

All the feeble distinctions without a difference in this thread are a hoot.

[roamer65]

376. If loving bacon makes me a murderer.

So be it.

[GliderGuider]

378. For years now my diet has been 80% meat.

You may judge me as you wish.

[GliderGuider]

379. Terrestrial Vertebrate Biomass then and now...

Domesticated animals make up three times the biomass of humans. We have "competitively excluded" about 93% of the wild animal biomass that used to roam the earth 12,000 years ago.

Make of that what you will.



Despite knowing this (I did the research and made the graph) and being intimately aware of the ecological damage being inflicted by the cascading clusterfuck that is the human presence on this planet, I still eat mostly meat.

Make of that what you will, too...

[longship]

380. What a jerk OP! nt

[Syzygy321]

381. I am a meat eater but I pretty much agree with you.

The guy I respect most is the poor
dude who works at the slaughterhouse, watching the terrified mooing cows forced along the walkway to where he is standing, and then shooting them in the head, one after another, all day, day after day.

I have heard the slaughterhouses keep therapists around to help the cow-killers deal with the horror of killing all day long.

So why do I respect those guys? Because they face the horror and have the courage of their convictions, so to speak. They get the blood on their hands and suffer the psychological consequences. Me, I just pick up the frozen prepackaged ground beef patties and try to blind myself to what it used to be and what was done to it.

Basically: since I am too chickenshit to work in a slaughterhouse, I don't think I have the right to eat a cow. It's really starting to bother me.

I don't know that Cecil will make me a complete vegan, but I am leaning toward changing my diet.

[uppityperson]

382. You are a doctor who works with brain dead people, can't deal with hamburger? Huh. Welcome to du

[Syzygy321]

383. Umm I don't slaughter the brain-dead people.

Nor do I put them between buns, with ketchup. So my conscience is pretty untroubled at work.

Thanks for the welcome.

[LuvLoogie]

385. meaty things I have eaten.

insects
crustaceans
mollusks
fish
fowl
reptiles
amphibians
tree rat
long-eared rat
the whole pig from the rooter to the tooter
most of the cow
other hoofed beasts (goat, deer, elk, buffalo, lamb, I don't recall if I have ever eaten horse)
liver
kidney
heart
tongue
stomache
intestine
brain
eye
snout
ear
marrow
fat

[The Second Stone]

386. So, the lion killer is just as okay as the homeless person eating KFC that someone gave him?

That's pretty piss poor logic. Project grade on introduction to argumentation is F, however if the class was one in satire mocking vegetarians for their illogic, then the grade is an A plus.

Seriously, vegans, if you have ethical issues with killing animals for human consumption and use, you have issues with life and history itself. Nothing in the stream of commerce doesn't involve harm to animals directly or indirectly.

[oberliner]

389. That's a reasonable point

Would you agree that the lion killer and a person who regular consumes meat from factory farms are equally responsible for animal cruelty?

[The Second Stone]

390. No. A person who consumes meat from where he knows not is not guilty of animal cruelty

in any sense at all. The people who run the farm might be. A person who kills a lion might be guilty of animal cruelty, and might not be. If a lion is killed in a hunt instantly and doesn't even know he was hunted, no cruelty. If a lion is killed while attacking a person, no cruelty. If a lion is teased from his refuge and killed, then probably cruelty.

What the vegans don't seem to understand is that plants are living things too. They have as much a right to live a free and wild life as animals. Same with bacteria. What criteria do we have for other living things? Must they have a spine? Some sort of intelligence? Ever played with a cuttlefish or octopus? I haven't, but I've eaten octopus, despite them being plainly intelligent.

It's just not sporting to eat a vegetable that has no chance to get away or kill you back.

[oberliner]

391. What if he knows where it's from?

I think part of the problem is that people are protected from knowing the specifics of where meat purchased in grocery stores comes from. In this hypothetical scenario, if there was some way that the person who consumes meat could be made aware of where it was from - for instance, if they were able to be shown a video of the conditions of whatever factory farm the meat originated from - would that make a difference?

My only assertion here is that the maltreatment and killing of the lion by the dentist and the maltreatment and killing of a chicken in a factory farm are both forms of animal cruelty.

[The Second Stone]

393. Hearsay, or admissible personal knowledge?

I know where my food comes from generally speaking. I've still got to eat while I'm alive. Whether it is meat or vegetables doesn't really matter to me, they are all living.

Where do you draw the line? At the biological kingdom level? Plants okay, animals not? Why is that? And when I die, can I be assured that my body will be consumed ethically by worms, bacteria, fungus or vegetables?

Vegetables are living things. Every vegetable you eat can no longer produce oxygen from carbon dioxide, thus increasing global warming and further endangering not just human beings, but also critically endangered animals. Stop breathing out carbon dioxide! You have an obligation to the planet not to breathe out gases that would poison critically endangered species. Your personal carbon footprint would be best minimized by your ceasing to breathe. All that is better logic than the OP.

[oberliner]

394. Animals in factory farms are grossly mistreated

It seems that if one feels sadness about Cecil's death and anger towards the dentist responsible for killing him, then they might also feel sadness about the way those other animals are cruelly treated and killed as well and not want to contribute to that if they can help it.

That's really the only point I wanted to make.

[MatthewStLouis]

388. If you step on an ant, you are just as bad...

I understand the issue of inhumane treatment of animals/livestock. Atrocities at factory farms. I get that. But it's just not the same thing. Humans are known omnivores. Many of us eat meat. And what about carnivores? Your cat cannot survive off vegetables alone. This black and white kind of thinking is too closed minded.

[XRubicon]

392. Sorry but no.

If you were about 1 inch tall in front of most animals guess what would happen to you...

Killing for sport is abhorrent, killing to eat is nature. sorry.