This is going to take the brightest Legal Minds & Scholar Minds on DU to help me with my question:

[Ghost in the Machine]

If Corporations can be "people", can people be "corporations"? Bear with me for a few minutes, because I'm having these thoughts and need to get them out:

#1: Many years ago, I worked for a Fortune 100 Company. We had top of the line Health, Vision and Dental insurance through BCBS. Because of the sheer numbers of employees at plants throughout the US, along with with 7 or 8 other Countries, it only cost us $20/month for whole family coverage and, IIRC, only 10% copay.

My Question: Why can't 100's of thousand of us, or even millions, incorporate ourselves into some kind of corporation/conglomerate, then apply to an insurance company where we can basically set our rates because of the sheer number of us. Instead of "Citizens United", we could be something like "United Citizens for Lower Healthcare Costs Inc.". We could pick a State to use as base headquarters, then have smaller "companies" in each State. Each "employee" would have the duty of sending at least ONE email, or writing ONE "Open Letter" or "Letter to the Editor" per day to their local paper, their Congressman/woman or a Healthcare Provider, while still keeping their regular jobs. Each member would be responsible for sending in their monthly payment, and for those who can afford it, we could start a fund to help others who hit on hard times and couldn't make their payments.

So, for all of you brilliant Lawyers, Professors, Economists, Teachers or anyone else who has a clue... is something like this even doable, or is it too far out there and too far-fetched?? I have been thinking about this for a while now, at least a couple of years, but this is the first time I've put fingers to the keyboard and mentioned it, just to get it off my mind and try to get some kind of honest opinion/answer.

I have pretty tough skin, but please don't get too rough on me for trying to find a way to insure millions, especially with the GOPigs wanting to do away with Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security.

Peace,

Ghost

[WDIM]

1. Corporations are not people and if they are they violate the equal protection clause.

There is nothing equal about the protection and favoritism giving to corporations as compared to the individual.

If i had equal protection under the laws as corporation i should be able to incorporate myself and claim every expense i have and show a huge loss at the end of the year thus not paying income taxes and getting huge tax returns as the corporations do.

[elleng]

2. We did,

we are/were Federal Government Employees, with the BEST plans in the country (imo,) https://www.opm.gov/healthcare-insurance/healthcare/

SORRY that everyone can't participate. It's the model for Single Payer, imo. (+ Medicare.)

[justhanginon]

3. Interesting!

[PoliticAverse]

4. Why don't you just start a mutual insurance company then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_insurance

[Ghost in the Machine]

7. It probably takes more money, and brains, than I have to start one. N/T

[ShrimpPoboy]

5. Maybe?

You don't have to be a "corporation" (which anyone can form anytime with some paperwork and small fee) in order for the insurance companies to give you group rates. You just have to convince them you should get it. I suppose if enough people signed up for your group you'd have some leverage to try. If the numbers made sense to them (ie, it's profitable) I don't see why they wouldn't consider it.

There's also lots of state specific laws on these kind of things. Few industries are as regulated as insurance.

[Hamlette]

6. I'm confused

why do you think you can set your own rate? You might get a better group rate but it will never be lower than the cost of care.

When you say "it only cost $20 per month" do you mean the employee co-pay or the full insurance cost? When was this? Why would an insurance company only charge $20 per month when the cost of care is 100 times that?

If it is a $20 copay, I suppose all of us little corporations will have to pay the balance instead of your Fortune 100 company?

the holding that a corporation is a person is a construct of the Supreme Court of the US. In the constitution a person can sue and be sued and enter into a contract. The court extended that to corporations. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with corporate shield which allows everyone to escape liability.

[Ghost in the Machine]

9. What is confusing?

When you say "it only cost $20 per month" do you mean the employee co-pay or the full insurance cost? When was this? Why would an insurance company only charge $20 per month when the cost of care is 100 times that?

I thought that I articulated well enough in the OP that WE (the employees) paid $20/month premiums from our checks (which was $5/week), and we had a 10% copay on medical services. Some of it was even FREE, which I didn't mention. Think about 80,000+ employees at $20/mo and see what that number is. The number of employees was probably much higher. It was the mid 90's, and I worked for a division of Illinois Tool Works. http://www.itw.com/

why do you think you can set your own rate? You might get a better group rate but it will never be lower than the cost of care.

For the same reason that Walmart can tell other companies how much they will pay for their product, and the companies bow down to it... sheer buying power! Did you know, for instance, that Walmart used to dictate prices to Hewlett-Packard (HP) for their computers? That's why you could buy the same HP at Walmart for 100's cheaper than at Sears, Staples, etc.? Here's the catch, though... it wasn't the *same*. It may have looked the same, with the same Model, etc., but HP had put in a separate assembly line for Walmart, and used cheaper products, like tin and aluminum wiring, instead of gold, copper and even small amounts of Platinum. Those parts are *why* HP used to be top of the line, but when people started buying then from Walmart for $100's less... and they didn't last as long/broke down too often, HP took a nose dive and merged with Compaq.

I have an HP Pavilion, bought from Sears in 1999, that still works today! I can't use it, as back then it was the newest with all the bells and whistles, but only has a capacity for 256MBs of RAM and a 400MHz processor. You know what, though? I am *still* using the original mouse that came with it on my current computer! 16 YEARS and counting!

Peace, and good night for now.. I have to get some sleep...

Ghost

[Hamlette]

20. yes, but . . .

you think you had good insurance because of what YOU paid. You did not pay the majority of the cost of the insurance, your employer did. Where are you many little corporations going to get the "employer contribution" to pay what your Fortune 100 company paid? Yes, as a big company your employer may have received a larger discount than a smaller company or an individual but you can't buy health coverage for a family for $20 per month. Someone has to pay the other $15-20K per year the insurance costs.

So, as in your Walmart example, if you "dictate the cost" because of "sheer buying power" you are going to get shitty insurance. Just like you'd get a shitty HP from Walmart.

If it weren't illegal to sell a shitty insurance policy under Obamacare, you might get an insurance policy for $20 per month but they won't be able to cover more than $240 in health care costs per family per year. Even if everyone in American was in your pool for "buying power". They would go broke and cover nothing. Not many families have less than $240 in health care costs per year. You think the insurance company is going to spin gold to pay the bills?

While I hate insurance companies and think they are part of the problem, since Obamacare outlawed insurance companies making huge profits, the cost of health care itself is a bigger part of the problem.

[WillowTree]

8. "Each member would be responsible for sending in their monthly payment......."

Send it in where? To some central collection point from whence the collected premiums would be sent to the insurance company? Or are you saying that each member would be responsible for getting their own premiums in to the insurer?

[Ghost in the Machine]

10. Sent into the headquarters I mentioned, that would be staffed with the people who know how to

handle these things. As I said, I just needed to finally get it out of my head, and need the input of smarter people than myself to see if it is feasible. At least I am trying to think of *something*, instead of just complaining all of the time. When you join a book club, or any other kind of membership that requires monthly payments, it's not too hard to remember to stick a check in the mail, or even go online to pay it, is it?

As I just told the last person, I need to get some sleep, so good night for now..

Peace to you and yours...

Ghost

[WillowTree]

14. Please don't condescend to me.

I wasn't reflecting on how difficult it is to send in a premium payment, I was trying to determine how what you're suggesting would qualify as a group for insurance purposes. And, as you are describing it now, I don't see that it would, for any number of reasons.

Nice to see the outside-the-box thinking, though.

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. I apologize if you felt that I was being condescending, it wasn't my intention..

Sometimes words don't come out on a screen the way they sound in your head. After all, this screen cannot capture tone, demeanor and/or inflection..

My most sincere apologies

Peace,

Ghost

[WillowTree]

16. Now THAT was classy!

Apology gladly accepted. NH.......NF.

Please be sure to have a really great weekend, OK?

[Ghost in the Machine]

17. Thank you! I *try* to get along with everyone, try not to hurt anyone's feelings or anything else

Sometimes I post real late at night, just before I'm getting ready to try to sleep for a while, and things don't come out as intended.

I have NEVER had a problem with admitting when I was wrong, and will NEVER have a problem apologizing if I hurt someone's feelings.. unless it was intentional after they have been rude or snarky to me. I've been here a long time and, back in the early days, have had a LOT of posts hidden, so much so that entire sub-threads were deleted because the other person's posts were hidden too.

I was just bragging about a little over a month ago that I hadn't had a post hidden in about 2.5 years, and I'll be damned if I didn't turn around a few days later and get one hidden. Somebody actually said "F**k You! to me, and I guess someone else alerted on it, and a jury let it stand in a 4-3 decision. I got nasty back to the person, and MY post gets hidden?? Oh well, I know 2 wrongs don't make a right, and I guess I can't blame a jury for hiding my post as it was deserved. (Note to Hosts & Admin: I am NOT whining about a jury decision, just explaining a situation! )

Peace to you and yours, Willow Tree...

Ghost

[WillowTree]

19. Yeah? So.......you're not perfect.

Makes me like you even better!

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

11. Like this guy did?

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/04/putting-the-i-in-ipo/309255/

[Ghost in the Machine]

18. No, I don't see anything at all in there that has to do with forming a corporation and providing

affordable health insurance to 100's of thousands of people. I liked the idea posted above about starting a Mutual Insurance Company, but as I replied to them, it would take more money, and brains, than I have.

If I remember correctly, the link said that Mutual Companies share the profits with the members, where a Stock backed insurance company shares profits with investors. I think a mutual fund would be the way to go.

Peace,

Ghost

[lonestarnot]

21. Do the names Charles Keating and Dennis Deconcini ring any bells?

[Yo_Mama]

24. Coops are already in the exchanges. It's part of ACA - there is nothing new about your idea.

A few have already crashed, and at the end of this year we'll find out more. Some, like Health Republic, claim they are doing fine. The premiums still aren't cheap.

You can't have just a 10% self-insurance subsidized under ACA. The subsidy is calculated on the second cheapest Silver plan, and Silver plans have a mandated 70% insurance, 30% self-insurance.

http://insurance.about.com/od/reformresources/a/Co-Op-Plans-The-Acas-Public-Plan-Alternative.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/06/kaiser-obamacare-co-ops/19889603/

http://www.healthinsurance.org/obamacare/co-op-health-plans-put-patients-interests-first/

[snooper2]

12. actually, all of your work is software now, you actually have an API named after you

PM me if you want more info

[sir pball]

13. It's not even a hard concept, nor orginal - it's called a "Corporation Sole"

A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole&quot incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole&quot person. A corporation sole is one of two types of corporation, the other being a corporation aggregate.[1][2] This allows corporations (often religious corporations or Commonwealth governments) to pass without interval in time from one office holder to the next successor-in-office, giving the positions legal continuity with subsequent office holders having identical powers to their predecessors.
---
Most corporations sole are church-related (for example, the Archbishop of Canterbury[3]), but some political offices of the United Kingdom, Canada, and the United States are also corporations sole. In the United Kingdom, for example, many of the Secretaries of State are corporations sole.[4] In contrast to a corporation sole, a corporation aggregate consists of two or more persons, typically run by a board of directors. Another difference is that corporations aggregate may have owners or stockholders, neither of which are a feature of a corporation sole.

Hell, the Throne is a corporation:

Some lawyers consider The Crown in right of each Commonwealth realm to be a corporation sole, which may possess property as the monarch distinct from property he or she possesses personally, and may do acts as monarch distinguished from her or his personal acts. Elizabeth II has several corporations sole: Her Majesty the Queen in Right of the United Kingdom, Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Canada, Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Australia are all distinct corporations sole. Because Australia and Canada have federal systems of government, Elizabeth also has a distinct corporation sole for each of the Australian states and Canadian provinces. For example, Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Queensland and Her Majesty the Queen in Right of Alberta.

So yes, an individual can be a corporation, but sadly in America today that's not nearly as beneficial as just incorporating with your wife, lover, or BFF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

[Yo_Mama]

22. It's not a bad idea - but basically the coops are already there

Some are having difficulties, but we'll know more in toward the end of the year.

However, the coops still aren't cheap. That $10 a month wasn't the whole premium by a long shot.

Also, the benefit levels are set by statute, not by the insurance company. The premium subsidy is calculated by the premium for the second cheapest health plan in the "Silver" bracket, which is a mandated 70% insurance, 30% self-insurance.

So by law you cannot have the 10% copay, or if you do, those who need help with premiums won't be able to get it. That generous coverage isn't subsidized.

PPACA is a complicated piece of legislation.

[hifiguy]

23. Speaking as an attorney

I admire the devious and subversive nature of this.

[Ghost in the Machine]

25. My dad always told me I'd make one HELL of a good used car salesman.. or Lawyer, lol!

Peace,

Ghost

[hifiguy]

26. Good lawyers, and there really are quite a lot of them,

serve justice. Bad lawyers, and there quite a lot of them, serve themselves. Guess who makes more money.

Abrahamic monotheism and capitalism must be destroyed for the human race to survive. It is that simple. Together they are killing our world. Them or us as Zappa said. Roddenberry was right: Logic-based socialist atheism is the only planetary hope in the long term

I despair for humanity for the short term because the benefit of .001% of the world'a population is now the only commonly with recognized value by those with power. We are doomed as a civilization unless something changes drastically and soon. But humans are remarkably pliant. After a few more centuries of the Stupid Ages we may evolve to something sane.

Mother Nature plays a very long game. She is never, ever cheated. Peace, bro/sis.

[Android3.14]

27. Still asking others to do your research?

That's not cool.

[Ghost in the Machine]

28. Are you stalking me or something?? I do most of my own research, thank you very much, but I also

know when I am in over my head, and need people who are smarter than I am for some input/advice.

Do you have anything of value to add to this thread?? If not, that's not cool, but thanks for the bump anyways!



Peace,

Ghost

[Android3.14]

29. Sorry, man. I mistook you for another poster

Earlier yesterday I ran into this guy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=9481
In my head (with Friday night tequila-induced reading skills), your handles sounded the same.
My fault, and a reminder to check my response history to avoid foot-in-mouth disease.

[Ghost in the Machine]

30. You showed some class by apologizing, I will give you that much. No harm, no foul my friend

I hope you have a great rest of your day! We ALL make mistakes sometimes... the ones with true class will admit it or apologize. You are officially in that category now, by your actions.

Peace to you and yours,

Ghost