Canada Bans Off-Grid Living (And It’s Happening In The U.S., Too)

[KamaAina]

http://www.offthegridnews.com/current-events/canada-bans-off-grid-living-and-its-happening-in-the-u-s-too/

It is illegal for Cheryl Smith to live in her own home because it doesn’t have electricity.

Officials in Clark’s Harbour, Nova Scotia, are refusing to give Smith a certificate of occupancy to live in her new house because it has no power. She since has stopped working on the home....

Smith is not the only person who has one run afoul of building codes for living off the grid. A number of people in the United States have been forced out of their homes by local authorities for choosing an off-the-grid life.

Cape Coral, Florida, resident Robin Speronis was evicted from her home because she chose to live without city water or electricity, as Off The Grid News reported. (Listen to Off The Grid Radio’s interview with Speronis here.)

[arcane1]

1. What the hell?? I can halfway understand if they didn't have water, but electricity?

indeed!

[emsimon33]

55. We have 36 solar panels on the roof

We are considering getting Elon Musk's home battery as we are tired of selling back to PG&E and getting nothing in return but their working against solar. We pump our own water from a well and if we get the battery, we could be off the grid, too.

[HappyPlace]

2. In my community we are required to pay for waste management services.

I don't care if you're 100% recycling and composting, you WILL pay a monthly charge.

This needs to change.

[Sherman A1]

16. Same here

and I consider it to be yet another tax. For years I got by recycling everything I could and taking it to the local recycling center. My one small bag of trash every two weeks went into the neighbor's can based upon an agreement (and small payment) with them. I saved about $150.00 a year at the time.

[Syzygy321]

36. That sounds a bit like school taxes, yes?

Everyone pays to support the local public school, even infertile couples and people who are ninety. It makes the community work.

You might not waste anything yourself, but you benefit from living in a community where your neighbors effluvium doesn't get thrown in the gutter to stink.

[csziggy]

50. Exactly! I'll happily pay for waste management fees

If that means people aren't dumping garbage on vacant land and in the parks. It doesn't mean I won't work to reduce the amount of garbage my household produces to the absolute minimum, either. But no matter how hard I work at it, there will be garbage and it has to go some where.

[Maedhros]

49. There is an argument to be made here in favor of cost-sharing

and economy of scale.

Everyone benefits from effective waste management, so I can merit in the argument that everyone should chip in to pay for the community's waste management expenses.

However, I do not agree with mandated purchase of private services. We should have socialized utilities managed by a public commission.

[dixiegrrrrl]

54. I have a neighbor who been paying sewer bills for 25 years, he is on a septic system.

The sewer/water/trash bill is combined.
He does not use the 15.00 a month sewer part.
City says tuff luck.

[Go Vols]

59. same way here

[Lurker Deluxe]

3. safety

The article states it is because local regs mandate safety features, wiring for smoke detectors.

Should we allow substandard housing?

The water issue is the same, hooked up to the sewer system and using it free because you refuse to pay for water. In urban settings some things have to be to code for occupancy, this isn't 1800's.

[KamaAina]

4. Most smoke detectors are battery-powered

[maxsolomon]

7. they can be either. hard-wired is becoming more common.

I'm not going to get too upset about this issue, sorry.

[leftyladyfrommo]

83. I just had to get a new box to bring my house up to code.

Part of that was getting a hard wired fire alarm. I think it is City Code now in Kansas City.

That's all right. The new box is safer than my old fuse box and I really needed to get a fire alarm.

[kcr]

8. Oh, well. Times change.

The new kind that don't rely on batteries are better and safer.

[Lurker Deluxe]

9. then the code is the problem

If the building code says the home needs to "be wired" for them than that is what has to be done.

Most new homes have redundant fire detection that is hard wired into a security system, with heat detectors in the attic. This saves lives. Smoke detectors added after the fact are, obviously batter operated.

The article does not say they have to be installed, merely wired for them. Pretty sure your sink will need a trap as well, and carpet fire resistant, and many other things that have been deemed to save lives.

I think that is the way it should be.

[Travis_0004]

17. Not in new construction

Standards change, and the goal should be to improve safety. A lot of people die every year because of dead batteries in smoke detectors, so new construction requires them to be hard wired, with a battery backup.

[msanthrope]

79. You never rented out property, have you?

many jurisdictions require landlords to have hard wired smoke and CO detectors.

[Ed Suspicious]

5. Lithium batteries for alarms. Or solar.

[Lurker Deluxe]

15. right

No one is saying anything other than the structure must be wired a certain way.

The article even says her father offered to do it free, and she refused.

Maybe we can find some old aluminum wire for her too ... or uninsulated copper. Find her some asbestos siding and insulation, lead based paint, and cedar shingles while we are at it.

[uppityperson]

67. What's wrong with cedar shingles?

[tammywammy]

75. They're a fire hazard

Around here almost no one has cedar shingles anymore, were replaced with a composite roof after hail storms in the early 90s. My dad's neighbor is the only one I know with cedar shingles and their insurance company doesn't cover their roof because of it. Lots of places have outright bans on cedar shingle roofs.

[uppityperson]

77. Ah, roofs, yes. I was thinking siding as its not uncommon for that.

Shakes, not shingles.

[Ed Suspicious]

6. Code is written by political actors making political decisions.

[Lurker Deluxe]

12. bs

Improved building codes save lives. Fire breaks in multi family housing where fire walls have to extend to the roof and be fire retardant double sided stop fires from running through buildings killing people and contains fires are just one example of newer building codes that save lives.

Just because you want to live off grid and build a fire trap doesn't mean you should be able to.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. The article isn't about multi-family dwellings.

[Lurker Deluxe]

21. I responded

To someone saying building codes are political and used a valid example.

I can use asbestos just as easy, should this person be allowed to use asbestos insulation?

Lead based paint?

Aluminium wiring?

There are many examples, wiring standards are what they are. Wiring such a small structure for smoke detectors is a minimal cost, and building codes should be followed.

If this story was about a woman and two children who died in a fire because of lack of smoke detectors would we not be outraged of lack of basic safety?

[Rex]

26. Smoke detectors have batteries so you really have not made a single point yet.

Smoke detectors do not need to be wired, sorry but your narrative holds no weight.

[Lurker Deluxe]

30. read

The code says the dwelling "has to be wired" for them.

It does not say they have to be installed. The point is valid, the code needs to be followed.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

32. They aren't doing any of those things. You might as well be asking if they should be

allowed to gargle chainsaws.

If this story was about a woman and two children who died in a fire because of lack of smoke detectors would we not be outraged of lack of basic safety?

Hey, maybe she had her children out of wedlock. Out-of-wedlock parenting isn't as advantageous as in-wedlock parenting so let's pass a law requiring all parents to be married. Economically the impact is minimal if not beneficial and children from 2-parent families do better.

If this story was about two children growing up in poverty and going to prison for lack of an intact household would we not bee outraged by the lack of basic home life?

(see how quickly that slope becomes slippery?)

[Lurker Deluxe]

34. so ...

Just do whatever then, right.

To hell with any regulation. I mean if you don't have to follow wiring regulation do you have follow waste, or can you just let your waste run onto the ground?

[Syzygy321]

42. I'm with you - if she is living in a community.

If she is living off by herself in the woods, not expecting policing or fire department services or ambulance if she falls ill, and not making trouble for close-living neighbors by using candles every night (increased fire hazard compared to electrical wiring) or digging a smelly pit out back for her feces, well okay. Good for her.

But if it's a town, everyone is in it together. It's like being an anti-vaxxer: on a desert island, you only risk your own child's life. In most other places, your neighbors have a stake in your decisions.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

52. So...

Just do whatever then, right?

To hell with intact families. I mean, if you don't have to follow the best practices for raising children you can just let them run wild and grow up in poverty and crime?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

37. I doubt most people living 'off the grid' are in 'multi family housing'.

And given that she was building her own house, it doesn't sound like she was. Most 'off the grid' types are in dwellings with substantial distances between them and any other dwellings.

[Trajan]

51. Are you purposely conflating 'off grid' with 'unsafe'?

Off grid homes are not automatically unsafe ...they are unsafe if substandard, but not just because they are off grid ...

[lumberjack_jeff]

24. It's worse than that.

the building codes are written by industry, and are a copyrighted work which cities and counties adopt by reference. They have no control over the codes themselves, and are completely subject to however they may subsequently be amended.

Simpson Strong Tie are a major participant in that process, and consequently many hundred$ (thousands?) of that company's products are present in every modern home.

So, the law is a copyrighted work that public agencies can't even photocopy for builders, and change without notice at the whim of the industy group that writes it.

[AZCat]

57. I don't think that's true.

Since the building codes are included in the laws of the jurisdiction (city, county, etc) they aren't copyrighted. The original works might be, but the versions adopted by the jurisdiction (which aren't subject to change, since they are tied to a specific edition) are not copyrighted and can usually be viewed/copied at the city or county libraries or through free online libraries.

[lumberjack_jeff]

74. I don't know about tied to a specific edition, but you're largely correct about copyright.

In 2002, the SBCCI sued a person who published the building codes adopted by two Texas towns online. SBCCI lost that case, but they (and their successor IBC) still assert copyright, and tell the municipalities that adopt the codes that they cannot be photocopied - even by city officials attempting to explain to builders what the law is.

The code is available online, but due to threats of lawsuit, you probably won't get access to it from your local building department. When I built my house in 2007, the building officials wouldn't allow me to photocopy the relevant sections of law.

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/ibr/icc.irc.2012.pdf

[msanthrope]

80. Laws, when printed by a government entity, are not subject to copyright. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. That is what the court held in 2002. The ICC still advises building departments otherwise. n/t

[Rex]

28. Always and for their benefit almost 100% of the time.

Be able to be controlled or go live somewhere else is the message here.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

35. Actually, yes, in another OP, that's exactly what is being allowed.

The Amish are being allowed to ignore code on plumbing, wiring, smoke and monoxide detectors based upon 'religious beliefs'.

And if you're going to allow exemptions based upon something as variable as 'religious beliefs', then I certainly don't see any reason to deny exemptions to people who are actually AHEAD of the tech curve, as opposed to still trying to live in the 1800s.

[Lurker Deluxe]

38. different

I was born and raised in Amish country, up state NY. The building codes in those rural areas are different, the Amish are not building new homes in Buffalo.

[WinkyDink]

48. "Should we allow substandard housing?" Bwahahahaha! What country do you think you live in?! We have

PLENTY of ramshackle dwellings in this land of the free! You need to get out more!

[Ilsa]

53. What if she has a septic system?

Plenty of nice neighborhoods are built with them.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

10. Tell her to call Solar City.

[Electric Monk]

11. Canada did? or the municipality of Clark’s Harbour, Nova Scotia did? Misleading headline. nt

[KamaAina]

14. The municipality was enforcing a federal building code

Smith cannot get a certificate of occupancy because national building codes in Canada require new homes to have wiring for smoke detectors and ventilation systems.

So presumably any municpality in the Great White North could do the same.

[Monk06]

65. Very misleading

"The National Building Code of Canada is the model building code of Canada. It is issued by the Institute for Research In Construction (IRC),[1][dead link][2] a part of the National Research Council of Canada. As a model code, it has no legal status until it is adopted by a jurisdiction that regulates construction."

"British Columbia[edit]
The British Columbia Building Code[17] is based on the core concepts of the National Building Code with some variations specific to the province. The Code applies throughout British Columbia, except for some Federal lands and the City of Vancouver.[18] The Code is published by Crown Publications.

Vancouver[edit]
Under the Vancouver Building Bylaw, Vancouver has developed its own building code based on the National Building Code."

"Prince Edward Island,[28] Nova Scotia,[29] and Newfoundland and Labrador[30] have legislation enforcing the current version of the National Building Code of Canada. Manitoba[31] and Saskatchewan[32] have adopted the 2010 National Building Code as regulations under provincial acts."

The Federal Code on applies to provinces and municipalities that have jurisdiction over construction not unincorporated communities

[Throd]

13. They resent not being able to control the plebes.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

19. Exactly. Not to mention the utility monopolies want their cut.

[Lizzie Poppet]

22. The nail that sticks up gets pounded down.

[lumberjack_jeff]

20. Different kettles of fish.

You can't live "off grid" in the dead center of it. One of the benefits of living in town is knowing that the neighbors sewage goes to a treatment plant and not your back yard.

Speronis wanted all the benefits of town living without the costs.

It doesn't make it clear, but it appears that Smith, on the other hand wanted to live in an area that wasn't served by water and sewer.

[frazzled]

23. Five Things You Need to Live Off the Grid

No. 2 is:

The Right Site
The best spot for an off-grid home is in a remote region where building codes don’t apply. This doesn’t mean you have to buy an isolated lot at the top of a rugged mountain. Look for sparsely populated counties in regions where you like the climate and scenery. A quick call to the county building authority will determine whether restrictive codes and covenants exist. You need legal access as well. During the purchase of the land, make sure you will always have a legal right to use any existing roads, paths or waterways to reach your land.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/five-things-need-live-off-grid-79744.html

Any new build (and in many places, when purchasing an older home) requires a code inspection by the local municipality. If your home ain't "up to code" the occupancy or sale can't go through. (We faced this once when our hot water heater broke. We called Sears to come out and replace it and they refused, because it was against code: you can't vent a gas water heater with an oil-burning furnace. We were desperate, since my husband was sick with pneumonia, so I asked if I promised to replace the furnace, would they do it. (No way were we going to get an electric water heater back then.) They finally agreed, but said the city inspector would be out to check. Yoy: we had to reline a chimney, have asbestos abatement before they would cart away our old furnace, and bought a new fuel-efficient furnace. That $200 water heater ended up costing many thousands.)

We live in societies, and they have rules supposedly made for the common good. Maybe some are dumb or outdated. But it's the form of society we've chosen to live in. We can try to change the rules, but we don't have the "freedom" to ignore the rules.

If you want to live off the grid, you need to do it in a place where the rules conform with your wishes.

[AZ Progressive]

27. In other words, you have to conform for "the good of the community"

[Syzygy321]

46. No one makes you buy land in that community if you don't like the rules.

Plenty of open space in Canada, right?

If her intent was a place without electricity, I gotta believe there are thousands of unwired fishing/hunting/vacation cabins all across the country, and no government agency forbidding people from living in them.

[LiberalArkie]

56. In a lot of areas, you don't have to be very far out of town.

Usually not in a large metro area. I live 25 miles from Little Rock in the Ouachita national forest in a house I built with my own 2 hands. I built it to surpass the National Electrical Code, because I could. I was planning to be on solar, but never could afford it, but at most I use less than 500 Kwh a month. I have 3 mini-split heat pumps and a GE Hybrid hot water heater that helps to keep the energy use low.

A couple of the local electric co-op guys are building them small homes like mine as they like how cheap it is to run.

Located in a city with codes, I would not have been able to. But I surpassed the codes anyway because I did not want it to have an electrical fire or gas fire. No gas in the house, just to the 8kw propane generator that runs the whole house with the exception of the range.

[Go Vols]

60. Fuckin A Dude

[Rex]

25. Well of course! Everyone has to pay the piper one way or the other!

I see some really weak excuses in this thread, all shot down I might add. Government doesn't like it when you won't be obedient sheep.

[PowerToThePeople]

29. Not sure this is real.

If you are planning on living off grid, why do you care about a certificate of occupancy? Just go live there.

[Lurker Deluxe]

31. sure

And just let your raw sewage run off to the local stream ... to hell with codes.

[Throd]

44. You seem to assume the worst in some people.

Yet put a lot of faith in regulation written by other people.

[Lurker Deluxe]

47. true

Some people need to be protected from themselves.

How many die of CO2 poisoning every winter using unvented, one of the code violations in this example, heaters indoors?

Codes are there for a reason.

[PowerToThePeople]

70. And sometimes those reasons

Have nothing to do with the public interest, as this OP example is.

[beevul]

76. Sometimes presumptuous protectors go too far, too. n/T

[uppityperson]

68. My neighbor is one of the approved septic system designers in the county, lives off the

grid.

I am not sure why you conflate "off the grid" with letting "raw sewage fun off to the local stream".

Why do you?

[uppityperson]

71. Did you know "off the grid" is living without electricity, nothing to do with sewage?

[uppityperson]

72. Because there is a lot more to building codes than simply electricity.

And if you are red tagged, given a "do not occupy" status, and live there, you can be fined.

[Syzygy321]

33. What is a "certificate of occupancy"?

And what does it do for you?

I have always thought "off the grid" meant a rural life where you bought some land, canned your own beans by candlelight, and didn't want or need any certificates from government agencies.

Surely that is not illegal?

[Go Vols]

40. Its not where I live

as long as you aren't in city limits.

[1939]

43. After all inspections are completed

structural, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc the code compliance folk then give a COA which allows the dwelling or business to be occupied.

The bank we use was delayed four months after the building was finished because one of the inspectors didn't like the way the parking lot drained and they had to tear part of it up and re-do it before they could get the COA.

I see lots of Ayn Rand in this thread.

[Lurker Deluxe]

45. surely it is

I have acreage in Cut and Shoot Texas, out in the middle of no where. When I put in septic system, which I dug and installed myself, it had to be inspected before I covered it up.

My house; which I have building for years will have to have inspections as it progresses. I could most likely do it "under the radar" but would never be able to get any kind of insurance on it. And if I got caught they would certainly red tag it and cut off my power.

Codes are there for a reason.

[uppityperson]

69. "off the grid" means not dependent on public utilities, especially the supply of electricity.

[Go Vols]

39. Same story with vid

http://www.ctvnews.ca/lifestyle/it-s-my-house-n-s-woman-fights-to-live-off-the-grid-1.2497953

[lpbk2713]

41. There used to be a time when government existed FOR the people.

Now people exist for the government.

[quaker bill]

63. It exists for the people, just not those you prefer

zoning laws are made and enforced by popular demand. I take complaints from the public for a living. Even the most "freedom" oriented conservatives and libertarians will complain to Gov't when the neighbor is doing something they do not approve of.

[hunter]

58. Anyone can live off the grid.

Walk to your main circuit breaker and switch it off. If it's an older house with fuses, remove them.

There. Just like that, you are "off the grid."

On the other hand, i do think society should be more accommodating of experimental lifestyles within the bounds of safety. Maybe with modern insulation technology it's possible, maybe even desirable, for modern homes to have something like a 5 amp 120 volt electrical service. Maybe it should be standard for residences to have no connection to the electric grid at all, relying 100% on local power. That would certainly make communities more resilient in natural disasters that disrupted the electric grid.

I'm mostly of the opinion that building codes exist for the convenience of the banking and insurance industries. It's also a way of limiting neighborhoods to people of a certain income or lifestyle. (When incomes of non-white people were limited by employers, it was also yet another way of excluding people.) Codes turn homes into standardized commodities. Know the date a home was certified for occupation, it's location, it's square footage, then mostly you'll know what sort of wiring or plumbing they have, if any.

My great grandma's had two electric light bulbs and a single outlet for my great grandpa's radio. These were installed during a Depression era rural electrification project. There was no indoor plumbing. The house was heated, the water heated, and the food cooked by a cast iron kitchen wood stove. The land could be valued as a working ranch, but my great grandma's house had no modern value, except to her.

People who want to live that sort of simple lifestyle today usually have to find an old school bus, or build their simple home on a trailer chassis, and then they have to find some out-of-the-way place to park it.



http://tinyhouseblog.com/stick-built/dwaynes-tiny

[struggle4progress]

61. OMG! Housing standards! Municipal codes! Zoning laws!

City dwellings with sewer connections! And heating! And lights!

[Liberal_in_LA]

62. can she get solar panels instead?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

64. "Off-Grid" whackjobs destroyed my grandparents groundwater

But hey, what is a little typhoid between neighbors?

[Nevernose]

66. If she doesn't have wiring, her house becomes a nuisance

After she passes away or otherwise moves on. Hence the building codes. That's actually one of the main purposes of them.

Her father-in-law had offered to do the work for free.

Most importantly, no one is forcing her to actually USE electricity. She doesn't have to use electricity; she does not need to be on the grid.

She is, in my opinion, a kook.

[X_Digger]

73. Too much Ayn Rand in this thread.

Building codes save lives. Naysayer are like the idjits blabbering on about 'big pharma'.

[Facility Inspector]

78. Everything the culture and its government promulgates is to enforce

a "soft" condition of slavery for the masses.

From the structure of education, the nature of employment, the condition of debt peonage, right down to the food we eat and the sickness industry many of us are victims of, we are conditioned and acted upon from birth until death to become our own jailer.

The addiction feedback loops inherent in our day-to-day lives lends itself to a kind of slavery.

This micro-control, down to the way we even "control" our own homes, has to have the stamp of the overseer.

[Syzygy321]

85. If someone wants to find a mountain or forest and live off the land,

or move from campground to campground with her pup tent, or barter her skills for food, no one's stopping her.

All kinds of people make all kinds of creative arrangements.

Whereas a certain kind of person chooses a conventional life of his own free will ... and then sighs that some outside force beyond his control has enslaved him.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

81. Water and sewerage should be required, but not electricity, imo.

Well, that should be required if you have less than "X" amount of property and live close to others. How much property to handle the sewerage safely, I don't know.

Other than that, it's not really my business.

[daleo]

84. And, yet, if you don't pay your electric bill on time

The power company is perfectly happy to let you live off the grid.

[Snowyguy]

86. Disconnection, the best way to get off grid?

Looks like once a customer always a customer, disconnected or not, you owe your soul to the company store. Utilities may be lying about this but ... the one around here says, disconnected or not, you are still a customer for life, albeit one that does not use electricity. Apparently the utility expects customers who no longer use power to continue to pay them basic charges, everything except usage charges. Divorcing a utility corporation is just not possible, says the utility, it's like paying alimony for life without a divorce. The monopoly utility here disconnected one home in the bitter cold middle of winter. Owners were paying for all usage as well as all other charges, disconnected for refusal to pay extortive smart meter opt out fees that were five times higher than the owner's cost of usage as well as all basic charges. Then 6 months later some subcontractor shows up when the private owners are not there, tears the protective enclosure off the ingenious piece of engineering called an analogue meter, takes off & takes away this built-to-last electromechanical meter (for which the owners had proof of purchase & ownership, since they bought it when they built the house, then hired an electrical contractor to install it).
Then this utility subcontractor installs a non UL, non CSA approved cheap plastic piece of junk smart meter on his UL & CSA safety rated insurable meter base on a property with no power.
All of this happens to private rural owners living off grid on large acreage in a very remote setting. So they get away with stolen property & installing a smart meter on a disconnected off grid property. for what purpose, you might well ask. Noting to measure, what is the purpose of this wireless device?
The utility says as long as their service lines cross any property, this means the utility as good as owns all customers for life, that is, unless the off grid customer(s) can afford to have those lines removed, service lines that in this case those owners paid to have installed in the first place, when they first built their home.
Whose your daddy?

[daleo]

87. They want everything their way

Eventually it will change, but they will fight like hell.