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rug

(82,333 posts)
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 12:49 PM Aug 2015

Massive Ancient Greek city discovered submerged in Aegean Sea



The city had a massive fortress never found before in settlements from this period (Hellenic Ministry of Culture)

By Hannah Osborne | International Business Times – 5 hours ago

An ancient Greek city has been discovered sunken beneath the Aegean Sea. The settlement dates back around 4,500 years (2,500 BC) and was the size of around 10 football fields, covering an area of 12 acres.

Archaeologists from the Ephorate of Underwater Antiquities, University of Geneva and the Swiss School of Archaeology found the fortified Bronze Age settlement in Khilada Bay, in the Argolic Gulf. They found at least three huge horseshoe-shaped foundations attached to the wall line – which they say was possibly part of towers used to defend the settlement.

Defensive structures of this kind have never been found before from this time period in Greece, thd University of Geneva's Julien Beck said. He told Spero Forum: "The importance of our discovery is partly due to the large size. There must have been a brick superstructure above a stone foundation. The chances of finding such walls under water are extremely low. The full size of the facility is not yet known. We do not know why it is surrounded by fortifications."

The find was announced by the Hellenic Ministry of Culture, Education and Religious Affairs. The team had been looking for traces of prehistoric human activity on the eastern side of the Argolic Gulf. The city was submerged between one and three metres beneath the surface and consisted of a multitude of stone buildings of differing shapes, including rectangular, circular and arcs. They found paved surfaces, which they believe to be streets.



The settlement was the size of 10 football pitches (Hellenic Ministry of Culture)

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/massive-ancient-greek-city-discovered-submerged-aegean-sea-photos-1517615

The ship that found it.



The solar powered Terra Submersa.



http://www.planetsolar.org/boat/sections/the_boat
43 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Massive Ancient Greek city discovered submerged in Aegean Sea (Original Post) rug Aug 2015 OP
Cool ship. And, this might actually be the lost Atlantis the old philosophers wrote about. PatrickforO Aug 2015 #1
History Channel says that fadedrose Aug 2015 #4
Yep Glassunion Aug 2015 #11
Nah, Martians still waiting to dock at Port Everglades. Eleanors38 Aug 2015 #27
It predates the philosophers by about 2,000 years muriel_volestrangler Aug 2015 #16
Thanks for this timeline. Can you recommend a book or two that gives more info? erronis Aug 2015 #17
I'm afraid I don't know about relevant books muriel_volestrangler Aug 2015 #23
Professor Ken Feder wrote a book debunking bad archeology krispos42 Aug 2015 #41
Why I'm lovin' DU, Syzygy321 Aug 2015 #25
I didn't even know that the ancient Greeks... Hubert Flottz Aug 2015 #2
In the US sarisataka Aug 2015 #5
That must be the origin of the phrase "trying to impress the little woman". Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #12
That's a boy. Kaleva Aug 2015 #35
I was looking at the hair. Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2015 #36
Aw hell sarisataka got here first... demwing Aug 2015 #6
It's the thought that matters sarisataka Aug 2015 #10
Or indicative of spending too much time on the pute. erronis Aug 2015 #18
So true sarisataka Aug 2015 #19
Did they say fadedrose Aug 2015 #3
From wiki... jtuck004 Aug 2015 #7
According to Wiki the "current coastline" predates this city by 1500 years truebluegreen Aug 2015 #28
You can get local changes of a few metres of shore level over thousands of years muriel_volestrangler Aug 2015 #29
What a beautiful ship packman Aug 2015 #8
8.5 tons of batteries. No oars? So I looked up the batteries, jtuck004 Aug 2015 #9
Very interesting bits - thanks for the info! erronis Aug 2015 #20
17,000 pounds each hfojvt Aug 2015 #24
Cool thread. cilla4progress Aug 2015 #13
No kidding underpants Aug 2015 #14
Yes, fascinating in every way! smirkymonkey Aug 2015 #22
interesting way to cover a ship w solar panels. not very attractive Liberal_in_LA Aug 2015 #15
Looks OK, even strikingly beautiful to me. erronis Aug 2015 #21
It looks wicked cool when you're not looking straight down at it Brother Buzz Aug 2015 #31
that does look better Liberal_in_LA Aug 2015 #33
I would onethatcares Aug 2015 #37
I love these kind of stories madokie Aug 2015 #26
Paging Aquaman, we found your old home and it needs some cleaning up. nt Rex Aug 2015 #30
K&R! Omaha Steve Aug 2015 #32
Were those fortifications or docks??? They look like docks to me. Yo_Mama Aug 2015 #34
I hear a Donovan song coming on. Warren DeMontague Aug 2015 #38
Hail Atlantis! rug Aug 2015 #42
Massive? Doingto Aug 2015 #39
There will articles like this written about Miami in 4000 years Takket Aug 2015 #40
Fortunately there wil be no record at all of Marco Rubio. rug Aug 2015 #43

muriel_volestrangler

(101,150 posts)
16. It predates the philosophers by about 2,000 years
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:34 PM
Aug 2015

in a completely different civilisation - here's a rough timeline:

2500 BC: the new find
2500-1500: Linear A, writing for an unknown language
1500-1200: Linear B, writing for Mycenaean Greek, the earliest known form of Greek
c. 1200: Troy VIIa, the most likely candidate for Homeric Troy
1100-800: The Greek Dark Ages, after the collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, possibly due to the 'Sea Peoples'
800 onwards: Classical Greece, with an alphabet evolved from the Phoenician one
360: Plato tells the tale of Atlantis

If there were a flooded Greek city that inspired the myth, then Pavlopetri lasted much closer to the time of Plato - around 1000 BC. The changes, including language, in the 2000 years between this settlement and Plato are considerable. There are other candidates - eg Thera or the Minoan civilisation on Crete, which have the advantage of being islands, as Plato used in his story.

erronis

(14,944 posts)
17. Thanks for this timeline. Can you recommend a book or two that gives more info?
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:55 PM
Aug 2015

I'm very interested as a lay person about the "classical" age and what preceded it. Thx!

muriel_volestrangler

(101,150 posts)
23. I'm afraid I don't know about relevant books
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:42 PM
Aug 2015

I had to check the dates on Wikipedia. But that might be as good a starting point as any for books; I've picked up stuff from TV programmes in the UK, such as this:

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
41. Professor Ken Feder wrote a book debunking bad archeology
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 07:38 AM
Aug 2015

I've seen him about a half-dozen times when he gives lectures to local groups. Very interesting and entertaining.

Anyway, one of his lectures was about the myth of Atlantis, where he basically is "Plato created it as an example! He said so right here!"

The stories he tells about History Channel calling him are pretty funny. "Can't you just say that maybe..." "No!" "What about..." "No!"

It's called "Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology". I want to read it one day.

ETA:

I just found the book on eBay for less than $9, including shipping. So I bought it. It goes for like $75 new; I think it must be used as a college text.

 

Syzygy321

(583 posts)
25. Why I'm lovin' DU,
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:20 PM
Aug 2015

right here. ^^^^

Smart people impressing me with all the obscure shit they have expertise in.

thanks.

erronis

(14,944 posts)
18. Or indicative of spending too much time on the pute.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 03:59 PM
Aug 2015

Unfortunately, I was out on a hike in Vermont for a couple of hours and couldn't get a text/RSS/ping when this topic was raised. I gotta stop wandering away from my devices.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
7. From wiki...
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:41 PM
Aug 2015

History[edit]

Historic map (1528) of Aegean Sea by Ottoman Turkish geographer Piri Reis.
The current coastline dates back to about 4000 BC. Before that time, at the peak of the last ice age (c. 16,000 BC) sea levels everywhere were 130 metres lower, and there were large well-watered coastal plains instead of much of the northern Aegean. When they were first occupied, the present-day islands including Milos with its important obsidian production were probably still connected to the mainland. The present coastal arrangement appeared c. 7000 BC, with post-ice age sea levels continuing to rise for another 3,000 years after that.[8]
The subsequent Bronze Age civilizations of Greece and the Aegean Sea have given rise to the general term Aegean civilization. In ancient times, the sea was the birthplace of two ancient civilizations – the Minoans of Crete and the Mycenean Civilization of the Peloponnese.[9]

Satellite view of the Aegean Sea
Later arose the city-states of Athens and Sparta among many others that constituted the Athenian Empire and Hellenic Civilization. Plato described the Greeks living round the Aegean "like frogs around a pond".[10] The Aegean Sea was later invaded by the Persians and the Romans, and inhabited by the Byzantine Empire, the Bulgarians, the Venetians, the Genoese, the Seljuq Turks, and the Ottoman Empire. The Aegean was the site of the original democracies, and its seaways were the means of contact among several diverse civilizations of the Eastern Mediterranean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea#History

 

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)
28. According to Wiki the "current coastline" predates this city by 1500 years
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 07:15 PM
Aug 2015

and I'm thinking the last ice age didn't have anything to do with it being underwater now.

So the "current coastline" or the timeline is off--I'm leaning toward current coastline, since the location of Thermopylae (on the coast in 480 BCE) is now several km inland.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,150 posts)
29. You can get local changes of a few metres of shore level over thousands of years
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 07:33 PM
Aug 2015

The recognition of this was an important step in the development of the science of geology:

The Macellum of Pozzuoli was the macellum or market building of the Roman colony of Puteoli, now known as Pozzuoli. When first excavated in the 18th century, the discovery of a statue of Serapis led to the building being misidentified as the city's serapeum or Temple of Serapis.

A band of borings or Gastrochaenolites left by marine Lithophaga bivalve molluscs on three standing marble columns indicated that these columns had remained upright over centuries while the site sank below sea level, then re-emerged. This puzzling feature was the subject of debate in early geology, and eventually led to the identification of bradyseism in the area, showing that the Earth's crust could be subject to gradual movement without destructive earthquakes.
...
Charles Lyell's Principles of Geology of 1830 featured as its frontispiece a replication of di Jorio's illustration of the columns (shown above),[1] and a detailed section discussing their significance.[11] He strongly contested Daubeny's argument, and instead proposed slow and steady geological forces. Lyell wrote "That buildings should have been submerged, and afterwards upheaved, without being entirely reduced to a heap of ruins, will appear no anomaly, when we recollect that in the year 1819, when the delta of the Indus sank down, the houses within the fort of Sindree subsided beneath the waves without being overthrown." In 1832 the young Charles Darwin used Lyell's methods at the first landfall of the Beagle survey voyage, while considering evidence of land rising up at St. Jago. In his journal, Darwin dismissed Daubeny's argument, and wrote that he felt "sure at St Jago in some places a town might have been raised without injuring a house."[7]

Charles Babbage carried out a detailed survey of the ruins in 1828 and his Observations on the Temple of Serapis at Pozzuoli, near Naples were published in 1847. In some of the rooms of the macellum Babbage found a dark brownish encrustation of salts, and a thicker encrustation up to a height of about 9 feet (2.7 m) from floor level. These have been interpreted as showing that as the building lowered, a little lake formed and allowed water to enter the building without there being a direct connection to the sea, then at a later stage the land subsided to the point where sea water came in, and the Lithophaga started drilling holes in the masonry up to 19 feet (5.8 m) from floor level.[8]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macellum_of_Pozzuoli

The city they've found is only between one and three metres beneath the surface, so it's well within that kind of range.
 

packman

(16,296 posts)
8. What a beautiful ship
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:42 PM
Aug 2015

and the Greeks just paid the price of global warming with fire and all that sinning of running around naked.

 

jtuck004

(15,882 posts)
9. 8.5 tons of batteries. No oars? So I looked up the batteries,
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 01:44 PM
Aug 2015

"The 35-meter long boat was built in Germany with funding from Immo Stroeher, a German entrepreneur and advocate for solar technologies. It is covered by 512 square meters of solar photovoltaic panels at about 100 KW installed capacity. At night, when the sun doesn't shine the boat is powered by two lithium-ion batteries stored in the ship's hulls and weighting together 8.5 tons. Once fully charged, the boat can run on batteries for 72 hours. Today, MS Turanor is mostly used assisting scientific research projects of the University of Geneva.

Read more: http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/worlds-largest-solar-boat-charts-course-for-ancient-greece_100015949/#ixzz3kECVLHG4"


2 batteries, 8500 lbs each. Yikes.

hfojvt

(37,573 posts)
24. 17,000 pounds each
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:57 PM
Aug 2015

Unless there are metric tons which would still be 2,200 pounds in a 1,000 kg.

erronis

(14,944 posts)
21. Looks OK, even strikingly beautiful to me.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 04:08 PM
Aug 2015

I bet when they first raised sails on masts above the ships (instead of using poling or rowing) then someone complained about the unsightliness of it all.

Our little northern state of Vermont is rapidly erecting solar panels in spaces that used to be pastures. I'm sure the ROI is not great but I think it's wonderful that people are trying new energy sources. Think about this same ship spewing diesel fumes....

onethatcares

(16,131 posts)
37. I would
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 06:01 AM
Aug 2015

really like to be steering that. Imagine the quiet of the engines. And I see he has the outriggers in the back for trolling sailfish.

What better way to spend the day?

madokie

(51,076 posts)
26. I love these kind of stories
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 06:34 PM
Aug 2015

I'd just like to be here when thousands of years from now our lives our cities are discovered. Our toys our way of life is lain out for the future to see

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
34. Were those fortifications or docks??? They look like docks to me.
Sat Aug 29, 2015, 08:50 PM
Aug 2015

Obviously it has sunk, but it was never that far from the sea!

Takket

(21,424 posts)
40. There will articles like this written about Miami in 4000 years
Sun Aug 30, 2015, 06:24 AM
Aug 2015

Assuming there are still humans 4000 years from now.

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