Let's let someone who has been on the receiving end of racism define it for you, OK

[randys1]

[TM99]

1. So what?

I am a PoC, and I disagree.

As a bi-racial man, I have experienced institutionalized racism that exists in the culture, and I have experienced individual racism from both black and white people. Hell I have experienced it with hispanics and with asians.

No one is immune from individual racism no matter how much attempts are made to redefine terms.

[randys1]

2. No such thing as individual racism, that is called bigotry.

Not my rule or definition, I am just passing on what the overwhelming majority of those affected believe.

What the facts are on the ground, as they say.

Also, remember WHY it is important for certain people to be ABLE to call Black people racist.

This is important

edit ---
I of course mean no such thing as individual racism if you are not part of the controlling power or group...

Thanks to my STALKER for pointing out my mistake

[Nye Bevan]

6. So when you post (for example) that Laura Ingraham is a "racist",

randys1 (12,266 posts)

Laura Ingrham, shut your racist and ignorant mouth please [View all]

Calling liberals race baiters.

Jesus Woman, are you that much of a racist?

She says this all the time but did it today I think in regards to the racist who says there is a war on whites...


RECAP

Liberals are not racists because they point out racism, RACISTS like you Laura are the racists...

got it!


How angry does it make decent people like us that Laura gets rich being a racist and liar...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5341425

Is that not an individual being a racist, or did you mean to say that she is a "bigot"?

[VanillaRhapsody]

9. Who said they were mutually exclusive?

[Nye Bevan]

11. randys1 said that there was "no such thing as individual racism",

but he has made posts in the past claiming that an individual is a racist. Hence my confusion.

[randys1]

18. I of course meant outside of the controlling group. Boy, I knew you stalked me but this is

insane and scary.

Even I couldnt find that old of a post and I wrote it.

Wow.

VERY scary.

[Nye Bevan]

23. Thanks for editing your post.

[randys1]

25. How could you possibly have something I wrote that long ago? Why are you stalking me?

Over a year old, thousands of posts old

Jesus, I think I need to look into this....VERY SCARY

[JackInGreen]

28. Randy?

It's a search away, seriously. Google is powerful shit.

[randys1]

29. Bullshit, it is someone who stalks me. THis much I am certain of.

[Nye Bevan]

33. No, the previous poster was correct. It was a simple Google search. Took about 5 seconds.

I do not "stalk" anyone on DU or anywhere else.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

41. See that little search box at the upper-right corner of your screen?

It says you're not being stalked, not anymore than the rest of us are--but the spectacle of you feeling so sorry for yourself is a little entertaining anyhow. And while I'm here, I'll point out once again that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. But just because you're clueless doesn't mean others have to live with your misperceptions. Racism is not the sole domain of white people. Agree, disagree, whatever. You don't move reality by even an inch.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

45. +20 billion

Thumbs up on all counts.

[tkmorris]

67. You just... search for them

It's not hard. Don't you think you're being just a wee bit hyperbolic here?

[VanillaRhapsody]

19. No he didnt

Shame on you....as a Liberal and a woman I am ashamed for you.....

This is the way Paulites act...

[Nye Bevan]

27. Ummmmm.... I was directly quoting from the subject line of his post (nt)

[bettyellen]

20. She is a big player in perpetuating institutionalized racism, so yes.

[TM99]

10. Nope.

A bigot may hate or not accept members of a race but the term applies to any group - gays, women, blacks, jews, atheists, whatever.

A racist is similar but hates or does not accept members of a specific race alone.

Both have prejudices. The basis for those prejudices is what distinguishes the two.

So yes, individual racism does exist.

Members of my father's side of the family that hated and still hate and do not accept that he married a white woman and fathered three bi-racial kids are indeed racists. Several of them are also bigots because they are Christian and do not accept that I am ignostic and my sister is a lesbian.

[randys1]

12. Gotta let go of that need to be able to call Black people racists.

GOtta listen to the experts

[TM99]

13. The man is not an expert.

Some are. Period. Such is life. Reality is what it is.

[randys1]

16. unbelievable

Paul Mooney isnt an expert

[VanillaRhapsody]

21. Unfuckingbelievable.

[randys1]

24. Did you see that Nye person pull something out that I could not find if my life

depended on it?

STALKER

fuck this

[VanillaRhapsody]

26. Its sickening

Sound like gungeoneers.....same fucked up logic....

[tkmorris]

68. It has already been explained to you how simple that is

It isn't stalking it's bloody GOOGLE. You mean to tell me you haven't heard of Google? This is getting ridiculous and you are acting paranoid.

[GeorgeGist]

70. If your life depends on how to use Google ...

you're in trouble.

[TM99]

31. What is unbelievable is that you

base your opinion on the words of a comedian and writer.

Just because he is a PoC, it does not make him an expert or allow him to change the terms and definitions to suit his purposes.

I applaud him fight racism as I do all, no matter their race, however, I do not agree with him for very sound & rational reasons.

[Rex]

35. Now I have seen it all.

I guess these folks here have no clue who Paul Mooney is. This is embarrassing for them imo.

[Waldorf]

64. I'll be honest, I've never heard of him.

[Number23]

66. You just have to laugh, don't you?? Laugh and laugh and laugh

Or else you'll never stop crying.

[Waldorf]

22. I disagree, I believe a black person can be racist. I don't buy into the they can't be

because they aren't in power. I know lots disagree, but that's the way I feel. Maybe one day in the future there won't be any racism/bigotry.

[Chitown Kev]

60. I did say in the thread about the Asian woman

that the incident that she described was an instance of racism.

Because in the incident that she described, the black people were tapping into prevailing and systemic anti-immigrant prejudices based on the way that she looked ("why don't you go back to your country...how did they know that she wasn't an American?).

What wasn't a racist action was the way the Asian woman was treated in the public square...that's not to say whether or not some of the black women there didn't harbor those feelings, but it was not racist to ask her to end her speech.

[Whiskeytide]

55. Bigotry is NOT synonymous with hatred based on race.

You can be a bigot for a lot of reasons - including race - but race is not the exclusive motivation for bigotry. You can be a bigot because of religion, sex, national origin, sexual orientation, age, etc...

Racism, on the other hand, is fear, hatred and intolerance based on race. We can debate that definition as incomplete or wanting specificity - and there would be merit to the debate - but we really can't say that simple definition is "inaccurate". At it's core, that IS what racism is.

What else would you call someone who fears, hates and is intolerant of another person merely because of that person's race (and I mean besides "asshole&quot ? I suppose you could use words like "bigotry", "prejudice" or "intolerance", but to be dead-on-balls accurate and complete, and to make the point without ambiguity, you would really have to say "racial bigotry", "racial prejudice" or "racial intolerance". (Actually, I suppose you'd even have to say "racist asshole&quot .

That race based fear, hatred and intolerance has been an insidious part of human existence since the beginning. Accordingly, it is accurate to say that human societies, institutions and class systems are racist. But if we limit the word "racism" to ONLY mean institutional racism, we lose a very descriptive and accurate word to label very specific personal behavior, and I can't understand why we would want to do that.

And I understand there are reasons why some people want to be able to call Black people "racist". But I think we can examine, recognize and condemn such bullshit without sacrificing a useful word that so accurately conveys a specific meaning.

[immoderate]

3. As you imply, most debates are about what words mean.

--imm

[melman]

4. Right, let's leave it all up to Paul Mooney

lol

[randys1]

5. Yeah, what does he know...Jesus, do you THINK before you post

[saturnsring]

7. i cant tell anyone those things either even as a white person i still cant tell people those things

therefore I cant be racist?

[randys1]

8. sigh

[saturnsring]

14. exactly

[kwolf68]

39. Guilt by association

So even if you vote for leaders to help blacks, are actively promoting voting rights and support the upward mobility of blacks...HELL, even if you hire more blacks than representative of the local community you are still inculcated as the white devil...

Nowhere is it explained if our black President has any power and if so can we now cut the bullshit that the only way you can be a racist is to be aligned with the race that disproportionately represents the bourgeois class.

Further, what's the point of it all? I wonder why there is SUCH a strong movement by many on the left to 'explain away' any potential "black racism". Just because Johnny is a black guy who happens to be a racist does nothing to change my view of "black people", because I don't look at "the people" rather "the person."

That said, I honestly have never met a black person I thought was racist. I suppose some could have been, but I never got that impression. I've met tons of whites I thought or knew were racists. SO, on that end based on my experiences I do believe white people seem to be more predisposed to being racist white devils, but certainly not all of us are and many of us have sacrificed tirelessly to help our fellow Americans of color enjoy the spoils of a nation they helped to build (often without being asked).

The agenda of stating a black person "can't" be racist is dangerous. VERY dangerous. Hypothetical-Black business owner/hiring manager uses racist hiring practices (choosing those of their own color with no regard for qualifications). IF that person can't be a racist by some subjective rectal database admission then they have really done nothing wrong in infringing on the rights of the non person of color. OR do we rewrite the rules when blacks "get power" and say..."ok black folks you got power now, you can now be racist".

[Chitown Kev]

43. I have never seen a black person here

or at DK (where I regularly post) use the term "white devil"

So why is it that everytime this subject of race privilege comes up, this "white devil" phrase comes up?

[FLPanhandle]

15. No one wants to be called a racist

Even if that means redefining the word to exclude your personal group.

A stupid argument.

[Marr]

61. +1

[VanillaRhapsody]

17. And you all call yourselves Liberals?

You sound like Libertarians to me...this is the way Rand Paul followers talk about racism....do you even hear yourselves?

It does explain an awful lot ..

[randys1]

32. It is something we have known for a while now. And to think we have someone I admire so

greatly to blame for it, Bernie.

Bernie is nothing like this, he would instantly assure them they are wrong.

It is one of the reasons I am such a fan of his.

[geek tragedy]

30. this comes down to semantics, i.e. what definition of 'racism' people use.

every bit of what he's saying is true, so long as one understands what his definition of it is.

to a great many people--perhaps most--saying "that black guy is not racist, he's just bigoted towards white people, Jews and Asians" would be a rather puzzling statement

[randys1]

37. The point is why people, white people, so ADAMANTLY insist Paul is wrong or that they

need to be able to call Black people racists.

That is what this is all about

[geek tragedy]

42. projection is the psychological term, I believe nt

[tishaLA]

48. yeah, it's often an instance of good people talking past one another

(although not exclusively; repubs love to use the racist charge to disparage liberals in a way that's most often meritless)

from my perspective, popular culture has taken the word "racism" in the last 40 years or so and rendered it almost meaningless--but that's the definition of the word many people mean when they talk about racism. for them, it becomes a question of individual bigotry and prejudice. for people who study the phenomenon, like sociologists and anthropologists, there is an entirely different meaning that is indeed about structural inequalities based on race (with some dissent about how to apply it or study it).

so...people can talk endlessly and debate endlessly but they will never hear each other because they are having different conversations.

[romanic]

34. Why can't you just accept the fact

that not everyone is going to agree with you? You said your piece now move on.

[Hortensis]

36. Randys, I agre with so many of your statements,

but...no to this recasting of what racism is and endorsing even more divisiveness in the process.

Racism: The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Fact is, all races are not only capable of bias, bigotry, racism, whatever the appropriate word is for each situation, but members of all races tend to that personality trait and behavior in roughly the same proportions. Probably a good quarter to third or so are sincerely and firmly biased against those of "other" groups, something they manage principally by culling their memories of any contradictory info.

Something I'm reminded of occasionally when some total stranger gives me a cold, blank-eyed "I-do-not-like-you" face. I believe them because they "know" it's for good reason.

[randys1]

38. I take my cue from those so affected. White people control the institutions, the property

the schools, the housing, the jobs.

They can use racism, non whites cant.

Not here, elsewhere sure, if they have the power.

The importance is WHY certain white people so badly need to be ABLE to call Black people racists.

Think about that for a while

[Hortensis]

46. Well, when that last is just projection used as a weapon by

racists, do you need to examine it further? The WHY is because racists think it makes a good weapon. Actually, racists call everyone but themselves racists in exactly the same way for the same reason. They think they're fooling somebody.

Enduring and reborn institutionalized racism is horribly real, of course. If history and tradition weren't bad enough, Blacks are still less than 13% of the population and mostly readily separable by appearance. If I landed on earth yesterday, I would expect to find institutionalized racism.

IMO, your best strength is in not further separation but in joining others of all groups to stuff racist behaviors into some distasteful box never to be opened in public.

BTW, my half-Jewish daughter is a throwback to an ancestor I never met but see in her face. If this was 1940 and she was trying to escape Nazi Germany with fake papers saying she was 100% Aryan Lutheran, the Gestapo wouldn't bother to finish examining her papers before pulling her out of line. She lost more than 40 relatives to the Holocaust. Blacks don't own racism, and you don't want to.

[randys1]

47. One correction, I am not Black.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

49. You've said that all whites are racist

including yourself, so it seems that you do believe individuals can be racist.

[Hortensis]

56. Thanks for the correction. I was wearing Bob Marley

socks this morning until the floors warmed up.

[CJCRANE]

40. If a DUer posts a negative stereotype based on race...

Is that poster racist?

What if we don't know the poster's race or color, how do we make a judgment?

Is it based simply on the words and intent or something else?

[Prism]

44. Everyone can be racist

Bigotry motivated by racial animus is racism.

Institutional racism is a different kettle of fish.

But any individual and group can exert power and coercion based on racial sensibilities at any time. If I am a racial minority in an office, and my advancement is affected due to this, it wouldn't matter if I was white. I would be suffering from racism.

I think people are just going to have to get over the fact their attempt at NewSpeak largely hasn't stuck outside of their particular ideological bubbles.

If your argument defies common sense and requires sophistry to seem plausible, it's on very shaky ground.

[randys1]

50. Look at all the people who have an opinion about this. look at how IMPORTANT it is to them

People who usually dont say much unless they hear the "Black people cant be racist"

then they are sure to come a screaming

You do understand why I hope

[SickOfTheOnePct]

51. Must be important to you too

or you wouldn't have started the thread.

[randys1]

52. It is, racism in America is DAMN important to me , given it is RAMPANT

[SickOfTheOnePct]

53. You're right, it is

It's important to me too, but that doesn't mean I get to redefine words in order to make the point that it's important.

You've claimed that all white people are racists, so how can you now claim that individuals can't be racist?

[randys1]

54. I didnt redefine it. Far from it. It was a mis quote for me to say

individuals cant be racist, I meant, and edited it to say individuals outside of the controlling group cant be.

Most people who dont own property or cant hire someone cant actually affect others with racism, actually.

So my stalker or fan pulls out a year old quote where I call a known rightwing horrid person a racist, and in fact even though Laura Ingraham is a putrid and vile person, technically if she cant use her whiteness to negatively impact a non white person then technically she cant ACT as a true racist.


But what THIS IS ALL ABOUT is certain white people with the NEED to be able to call Black people racist.

That is all this is about, and that NEED is itself....


uh huh (bigoted )

[SickOfTheOnePct]

57. Because some black people are racists

and some Asian people are racist, and some Native American people are racist and some Hispanic people are racist.

You may not like it, but that's another subject entirely.

[CJCRANE]

58. My point is that you don't know my race or color.

The words I post stand or fall on whether they are logical and reasonable or not.

[randys1]

59. My point is when this is discussed among liberals - there is NO

debate.

Liberals like myself dont argue with Gay people about homophobia or Black people about racism.

[azmom]

65. I think it is possible to discuss

a topic without invalidating someone's experience.

Further, your judgment as to why someone may want to jump into a discussion is misguided at best.

[Marr]

62. There seems to be a direct correlation between how determined a person is to exempt themselves from

the racist label, and how casually they hurl it at others.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

63. I have been on the receiving end of racism

I will tell you what it meant to me when a total stranger judged me for my skin colour and told me to get out of a cafeteria (and more). It felt awful to be treated like I was lower than dirt for something I had no control over. It felt awful to be judged by my appearance and not for the content of my character.

That, and more, happened 40 - 45 years ago..... then things got better for many years. Now things are getting again. People are judging again by skin colour. WHY? Because of what you are doing.

Knock it off!

[petronius]

69. The Pedagogy of the Meaning of Racism: Reconciling a Discordant Discourse (by Carlos Hoyt Jr.)

The Pedagogy of the Meaning of Racism: Reconciling a Discordant Discourse
by Carlos Hoyt Jr.

Abstract

Racism is a term on which a great deal of discourse does and should turn in all realms of social work theory, practice, policy, and research. Because it is a concept heavily freighted with multiple and conflicting interpretations and used in a wide variety of ways, the idea and action of racism is not easy to teach or learn in a simple and straightforward manner. It is a term the meaning of which has been the subject of so much argument and mutation that its utility as a clear and reliable descriptor of a crucial form of ideology or behavior is less than certain. In this article, an analysis of the dispute over the proper definition of racism is undertaken, and an approach to teaching about the term is offered in an effort to provide both teachers and students with a clear, consistent, and useful understanding of this important and challenging phenomenon.

Social Work (2012) 57 (3): 225-234. doi: 10.1093/sw/sws009

https://www.andover.edu/About/Newsroom/TheMagazine/Documents/8-PedOfRacismSWJournal.pdf

These 'definition of racism' threads come up a lot, and I've never been clear on the background and utility of the newer definition, the power + prejudice definition. (And, I see some issues with how that definition moves out into general discussion--such as on DU--in an unexamined way. There are shades of the ecological fallacy, it seems.)

The article above was informative for me, at least as a starting point...

[mythology]

71. Here's what a prominent black person said about how he viewed affirmative action as racist

"worst forms" of racism have "always been accompanied by straight-faced representations that discrimination helped minorities."

Per your contention that we have to take a minority's view on racism as sacrosanct, I assume you believe Clarence Thomas' view that affirmative action is the worst form of racism?

You like Paul Mooney's view because it fits with yours and so you are claiming that it should be taken unquestioningly. I find that sort of attitude sad. Question everything, but most especially those things you want to believe to be true so you don't just get confirmation bias.