From what Obama just said sounds like we are at war.

[leftyladyfrommo]

Sounds like the whole of western civilization is going after these guys.

[Renew Deal]

1. We've been at war, but what did he say that made you think that.

[MH1]

57. We've been at play war, remote war, for something like 95% of the US.*

I think the "war" being referred to here may be more like World War 2.

In other words, we are on the brink of World War 3.

Maybe. I will believe it when I see it ... but I do believe that an event like this will one day push us past that brink. And it might be this one. The French don't take shit like this lightly. At all.


===============
* My comment is not to diminish the impact of war and the reality of it for the relatively small number who have been at REAL war. I know a few of them. But most Americans have just been able to slap a "Support the Troops" magnet on their auto and go about their lives.

[backscatter712]

63. No, this is not WWIII

Last edited Fri Nov 13, 2015, 10:49 PM - Edit history (1)

We're not going to war with Russia or any other superpowers. It does look like all the superpowers, including France, Russia, and us, are going to have a go at wiping ISIS off planet Earth...

[MH1]

70. I think it is not so simple to "wipe ISIS off planet Earth"

I think the complexity of that may very well turn into a much larger conflict, involving other Islamic factions, then other, not necessarily Islamic, Middle Eastern factions. (But like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not convinced this is the tipping point.)

Also, Russia and China are NOT our friends. They may want to take out ISIS but if they can use that as cover for making gains against their more entrenched rival ... they will. And that other rival (US) is generally not so stupid to be unaware of those maneuverings.

It's all a big tangled mess and it isn't getting better any time soon.

[leveymg]

96. Not necessary. Just round up their bankers. We know who they are. We failed to do this on 9/11

because of the close ties of the Houses of Saud and Bush

[hifiguy]

98. Drop the mic, mg.

You just hit it to the moon.

[MH1]

99. Funny thing about that. Some guy named John Kerry wrote a book about that.

Called "The New War". Published in 1997 if I'm not mistaken.

I'm not seeing any reason to think people will suddenly start paying attention ow.

[Scootaloo]

102. Let's not get ahead of ourselves; we're still fighting WWI

[eridani]

132. How could it possibly be like WW II? It's almost a sure bet that non-state actors are the perps n/

[malaise]

3. Western civilization has been at war since Bush's illegal war and occupation in 2003

I cry for humanity

[philosslayer]

7. He's the one who started all of this.

[merrily]

25. He is? From Illinois? I could have sworn we were mired in the Middle East before January 2009.

On edit. I misread. No one tried to blame Obama. Sorry!

[Takket]

36. "he" is Bush, not Obama

[merrily]

38. Thank you. My bad. Second yooge mistake. Maybe I should take a break.

[RKP5637]

127. ME stuff has been going on my entire life and with few solutions. It's like a

perpetual bad dream, but reality. And a sad part is, many make huge profits from war and conflicts.

[Marr]

103. Bush did not "start" all of this. His idiotic, ham-fisted foreign policy

certainly didn't help, but Islam has been becoming increasingly radicalized for at least forty years now.

You may recall there was something that happened here in the states that gave Bush the national support he needed to put his moronic foreign policy to work.

[EX500rider]

110. GW Bush.....elected 2001, and yet:

1980s
Austria August 29, 1981 – 1981 Vienna synagogue attack. 2 dead 30 injured.
Italy October 2, 1982 – 1982 Great Synagogue of Rome attack. 1 dead 37 injured.
Lebanon November 11, 1982 – Tyre headquarters bombings. 91 dead. 55 injured.
Lebanon/United States April 18, 1983 – The April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing, in Beirut, Lebanon by the Islamic Jihad Organization. 63 dead, 120 injured.
Lebanon/United States/France October 23, 1983 – The 1983 Beirut barracks bombing by the Islamic Jihad Organization. 307 dead 75 injured.
Kuwait December 12, 1983 – 1983 Kuwait bombings. The 90-minute coordinated attack of six key foreign and Kuwaiti installations including two embassies, the airport, and the country's main petro-chemical plant, was more notable for the damage it might have caused than what was actually destroyed. What might have been "the worst terrorist episode of the twentieth century in the Middle East," succeeding in killing only 6 people because of the bombs' faulty rigging.[2]
Lebanon/United States September 20, 1984 – The 1984 United States embassy annex bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 24 dead.
Spain April 12, 1985 – 1985 El Descanso bombing. 18 dead 82 injured.
Egypt/Italy/United States October 7, 1985 – Achille Lauro hijacking. 1 dead.
Italy/Austria December 27, 1985 – Rome and Vienna airport attacks. 23 dead 139 injured.
Greece June 14, 1985 – TWA Flight 847 hijacking. 1 dead.
Greece April 2, 1986 – TWA Flight 840 bombing (1986). 4 dead. 7 injured.
Turkey September 6, 1986 – Neve Shalom Synagogue Attack. 22 dead.
United Kingdom December 21, 1988 - 1988 Lockerbie bombing 270 dead, also includes 11 on the ground
Israel July 7, 1989 – Tel Aviv Jerusalem bus 405 suicide attack, near Kiryat Yearim. 16 dead.

1990s

The 1998 United States embassy bombing in Nairobi where 214 people were killed including 12 Americans, 4000 others were wounded.
Egypt February 4, 1990 – A bus carrying Israeli tourists in Egypt was attacked by Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine. 11 people, including 9 Israelis died and 17 others were injured.
China February 2, 1992 - 1992 Ürümqi bombings 3 dead 23 injured
Argentina/Israel March 17, 1992 – The 1992 attack on Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires. 29 killed 242 injured.
United States January 25, 1993 - 1993 shootings at CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia. 2 killed, 3 injured.
United States February 26, 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, in New York City. 6 killed, 1,042 injured
India March 12, 1993 – Serial blasts in Mumbai kill 257 people.
Turkey July 2, 1993 – Sivas Massacre, Arson attack at a gathering in Sivas killing 35 intellectuals from Turkey, most of whom were Alevis.
Israel April 6, 1994 – Afula Bus suicide bombing killing 8 wounding 55.
Israel April 13, 1994 – Hadera bus station suicide bombing. killing 5 wounding 30.
Argentina July 18, 1994 – Buenos Aires Jewish Center AMIA bombing. killing 85 wounding 300.
United Kingdom/Israel July 26, 1994 – The 1994 London Israeli Embassy attack. 20 injured.
Israel October 19, 1994 – The Dizengoff Street bus bombing was a Hamas suicide attack on a passenger bus driving down Dizengoff Street in Tel Aviv. 22 killed 50 injured.
Israel November 11, 1994 – Netzarim Junction bicycle bombing killing 3 and wounding 12.
Algeria/France December 24, 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers, 25 injured.
Israel January 22, 1995 – The Beit Lid suicide bombing was a suicide attack by Palestinian Islamic Jihad. 20 dead 69 injured.
Algeria January 30, 1995 – A car bomb exploded outside of a police station. 42 dead and 286 injured.[7][8]
India July 20, 1995 – A bomb on a motor scooter exploded at a marketplace in Jammu. Harkat-ul-Ansar claimed responsibility for the bombing. at least 17 killed 100+ injured.
Israel July 24, 1995 – The Ramat Gan bus bombing was a suicide attack by Hamas. 6 dead 33 injured.
France July 25-October 17, 1995 – The 1995 Paris Métro and RER bombings were a series of attacks by the Armed Islamic Group of Algeria in France. 8 killed 100+ wounded.
Croatia October 20, 1995 – In the 1995 Rijeka bombing a suicide bomber attempted to destroy a police station by driving a car with a bomb into the wall of the building. killing 1 (assailant) injured 29.
Israel February 25 & March 3, 1996 – The Jaffa Road bus bombings Two attacks on Jerusalem route 18 buses by Hamas. 45 killed 52 injured.
Israel March 4, 1996 – The Dizengoff Center suicide bombing was a terror attack by Hamas on the eve of the Jewish holiday of Purim. 13 killed 130 injured.
Egypt April 18, 1996 – Islamist gunmen fire on the Europa hotel in Cairo. 18 killed 17 wounded.
Saudi Arabia/United States June 25, 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
China February 25, 1997 - Three bombs explode on three buses in the Xinjiang capital of Ürümqi. 9 dead 74 injured
Israel March 21, 1997 – The Café Apropo bombing was a Hamas suicide bomber who detonated at a Tel Aviv sidewalk café. killing 3 wounding 46.
Israel July 30, 1997 – The 1997 Mahane Yehuda Market bombings were two consecutive suicide bombings carried out by Hamas militants at the Mahane Yehuda Market in Jerusalem. killing 16 wounding 178.
Bosnia and Herzegovina September 18, 1997 – The 1997 Mostar car bombings. 29 people injured.
Egypt November 17, 1997 – Luxor massacre, 6 armed Islamic terrorists attacked tourists at the Luxor ruins. 62 killed, 26 injured.
India February 14, 1998 – A total of 58 people were killed and over 200 injured in 12 bomb attacks in 11 places, in the city of Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu.
Tanzania Kenya United States August 7, 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead, 4000+ injured.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

[malaise]

10. We all know that but this mess

did not have to happen.
I can't take much more of this - too many dead innocents.

[clarice]

74. Is that when it all started? I was wondering...thanks. nt

[brush]

128. Try 1947 in Palestine.

[EX500rider]

137. Go's back a little further....say 570AD, Mecca, Saudi Arabia

[randys1]

4. shit

[FLPanhandle]

5. It's coming here again too.

It's a matter of time.

[RKP5637]

129. That's been really concerning me, is this the start of an escalation. They see no risk in

what they do, since some don't care if they live or die.

[philosslayer]

6. Who are "these guys"?

What nationality are they? What flag do they fight under?

[PatrickforO]

16. Who knows what grievance they think they have?

Maybe they lost friends or family in the invasions of Iraq or Afghanistan, or to drone attacks. Or something happened that makes them think this is the way to go.

The tragic, horrible thing is that even though our policies are in some part (but not all) responsible for the rise of terrorism, we have to find these fucks and bring them to justice.

As to the future, we need worldwide policies that promote social and economic justice instead of colonialist exploitation and then we wouldn't have attacks like this.

[philosslayer]

17. My point is...

You just can't have a war against "these guys". Sounds like the "War on Terror". Remember how well that worked out?

[PatrickforO]

20. I know. War sucks and should be banned.

Like I said, the west needs to eschew its colonialist approach and instead put policies in place that hold profitmongers and merchants of death at bay while promoting social and economic justice.

[yeoman6987]

40. France is doing all these things you mention

Doesn't seem to help them at all.

[merrily]

29. When did the War on Terror stop? We stopped using the term, but the war itself never ended.

And probably never will.

Those who lobby for peace have few Benjamins and correspondingly little clout.

[brush]

138. It's not "these guys". ISIS has taken credit for the attacks

They've taken over huge swaths of land in Iraq and Syria. They have territory and can be taken on.

Frances Hollande called the attacks "acts of war". Looks like they are going to go in there too along with our contingent, Turkey and Russia. This does not bode well. Who knows who else will get involved?

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Yeah, or maybe someone drew a cartoon they didnt like.

Dont care. Fuck em.

[Igel]

95. Here's my bet.

Ultimately it'll refer to the type of communalist thinking that is taking hold in some sectors in the West, coupled with the kind of grievance-nurture that a culture based on a zero-sum honor/humiliation calculus encourages and perpetuates (something else that we're nurturing in the cold frame in the West).

Of course, it's pre-Enlightenment thinking. Which, oddly is pretty much what post-Enlightenment thought is like.

[snooper2]

140. Or just maybe they REALLY want to have a Caliphate across the middle east

and abroad...

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to figure out that some of these fucking nuts LITERALLY follow their Holy book and "party" like it is the year 1099

[smirkymonkey]

148. +1000

[AngryAmish]

23. This is their flag

They control the traditionally Sunni tribal areas of the nations we call Iraq and Syria.

However, these are not Westphalian nations states. They live in different societies than the West. Their mores and culture is different than ours. They are deeply inbred, insular and tribal.

They do not recognize the alien laws of the West. No such thing as a warcrime . Slavery is OK. The Koran is literally true.

[hifiguy]

60. In other words they are batshit crazy theocratic barbarians

with a 1000-year old mindset, combined with modern weaponry and tactics.

Yeah, this will all work out well. I wonder if the Russians have tactical nukes.

[clarice]

75. BINGO !!!!!!! nt

[EX500rider]

111. "I wonder if the Russians have tactical nukes."

Of course they do.

Russia’s Tactical Nuclear Arsenal:
While the Russian tactical nuclear arsenal is not as large as what Soviet Union once maintained, the country is believed to have at least 2,000 tactical nuclear weapons deployed, but it could have as many as 5,000 such warheads when non-deployed weapons are taken into account. The Soviet Union was believed to have between 15,000 and 25,000 tactical nukes

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/5-russian-nuclear-weapons-war-the-west-should-fear-12159

[hifiguy]

112. Wasn't sure.

Let ol' Pooty-Poot do the necessary dirty work. It's the Russians' turn and he's a ruthless enough SOB to do it.

[EX500rider]

113. No doubt there.....gloves off so to speak

[CTyankee]

24. sometimes there is no flag. It is just western colonialism's latest pushback against us.

We didn't do it but our European allies DID. Therefore, we are attacked. Sins of the father...

[TheFarS1de]

116. This has been going on much longer than that .

They still dream of the Caliphate and bringing up what we consider to be crimes today by our ancestors ( and to judge them based on what we know now is a bit harsh , they all lived as they did in violent circumstances , regardless of ethnicity ) as justification for present actions is merely a distraction .

This is murder plain and simple of innocent people just because they are different from the attackers . They own this action in it's entirety and no excuse will be considered from my perspective .

[1939]

133. History predates "western colonialism"

Invasion of Europe stopped at Tours by Charles Martel

2nd try at taking over Europe stopped as Los Navas de Tolosa

3rd try at taking over Europe stopped at the gates of Vienna

Long Islamic colonialism in Spain ended only in 1492 at Grenada.

Long Islamic colonialism in the Balkans ended only in the early 1900s.

European colonialism of Islamic coiuntries ran from 1918 to 1947.

[Art_from_Ark]

139. Of course, between the battle of Tours (732) and Los Navas de Tolosa (1212),

there was the beginning of the Crusades (1095) to "take back the Holy Land".

[TheFarS1de]

141. And what was that in response too ?

Islamic expansion via aggressive techniques . Use the whole story .

[Capt. Obvious]

86. You're the guy who asked if this was a false flag

[CJCRANE]

9. A war against terror? nt

[plus5mace]

11. Hopefully Western and Eastern civilization.

It's time to ratchet down the neo-cold war and take out this death cult. They think God is on their side and I see no other option but to put that to the test.

[Yorktown]

12. Political Islam (MB, Daesh, etc) was already at war with the secular West

They just didn't publish a bona fide declaration of war

[merrily]

37. As if the West were not at war with the Middle East for decades?

Hell, Eisenhower sent troops to Lebanon. Bin Laden once said (on one of his post 911 videos) that he determined to get revenge when he saw the blood of children running in the streets of Beirut (courtesy of Poppy).

[hifiguy]

41. They also have been at war with each other

from the days of the Shi'a/Sunni schism. It's an armed madhouse of butchery and always has been - with the possible exception of the age when the Ottoman/Turkish sultanate dominated - the ME has usually been the place where sanity goes to die. The only difference is now they have automatic weapons, suicide bombers and trucks instead of camels and scimitars.

[merrily]

44. So, you're saying they're just bad people? What was our excuse?

[hifiguy]

45. Nope. Just the worst of universal human nature

stoked and multiplied by the force of particularly insane religous beliefs, which are by definition competely irrational.

"Someday we'll live on Venus, men will walk on Mars
But we will still be monkeys down deep inside"

David Byrne "The Facts of Life"

[merrily]

46. Ok. What was our excuse?

[hifiguy]

48. Oil and imperialism fueled by corporatism/fascism

in roughly equal measures.

[merrily]

51. Add in holding brown people in lower esteem than people who look more like our powerful people do.

Been a while since we bombed Western Europeans--and we took long enough before we jumped in against Hitler.

[hifiguy]

55. Meh. Money and imperialism, then oil, are the

main drivers of western meddling in that part of the world and have been ever since the Brits stuck their noses in.

[merrily]

61. Meh. Add in holding brown people in lower esteem.

See how repeating yourself is no better than posting stuff one time?

[clarice]

77. Oh PLEEEEEEEZZZZZZ. Peddle that shit somewhere else. Shame on you. nt

[merrily]

81. Right back at you, clarice!

[cpwm17]

49. In the 20th century the West was far more violent than the Muslim world

and our unprovoked atrocities against them has played a big part in the current cycle of violence. Currently, the US is the most violent nation.

[randome]

56. Funny how none of these monsters mention the historical arc of which you speak.

They are monsters and murderers. There is no excuse for deliberately murdering innocent people.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[cpwm17]

69. "There is no excuse for deliberately murdering innocent people."

That should be the position of everybody, with no exceptions.

[randome]

73. If you're trying to draw equivalence between the U.S. and the Middle East, I don't see it.

You can say that an innocent person killed is an innocent person dead, there is no difference. But we do NOT deliberately target innocent people. We do nothing and a hell of a lot of innocents will die. We put boots on the ground and a hell of a lot of innocents will die. We use drones and some innocent people will die but probably fewer.

What's the best course of action?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[cpwm17]

92. We should not start wars or support those that do.

Our wars are just as evil as their wars. We started the Iraq War. It was totally unprovoked. I don't believe in American Exceptionalism. Their dead are just as dead as our dead. We are all equal at birth.

We do deliberately target innocent people, including recently the hospital in Afghanistan. The US has a long history of that.

http://www.loonwatch.com/2011/12/eye-opening-graphic-map-of-muslim-countries-that-the-u-s-and-israel-have-bombed/

This “three-decade war for domination of the Middle East” becomes apparent when we consider how many Muslim countries the peace-loving United States and her “stalwart ally” Israel have bombed:...

The total number of Muslim countries that America and Israel have bombed comes to fourteen: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Tunisia.

In my lifetime the US also mass-murdered millions in south-east Asia and supported many other atrocities, including supporting Iraq's war against Iran and currently supporting Saudi Arabia against Yemen.

[randome]

115. So you're still saying that killing 150 Parisians is in revenge for Iraq.

Iraq was a war crime. Yet not one of these monsters has claimed to have acted in a sense of revenge. Not one.

Our hands are not clean but we are not responsible for this atrocity. And Paris sure as hell had nothing to do with it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[mythology]

117. There has been no finding that the hospital was intentionally targeted

MSF has said they think it was, but that isn't exactly proof.

And you grossly oversimplify if you think that all of this is caused by the U.S. and Israel. These countries almost are all autocratic with leaders far more interested in being rich and powerful than in democratic government. One of the ways in which they have distracted their people from their shitty governments is by blaming Israel or the U.S. and promoting radical Islamic beliefs that they haven't been able to control. Could the U.S. and Israel have done better? Absolutely, but the people have agency and are responsible for their actions too.

[cpwm17]

124. I'm mostly concerned about US behavior because that's what we have control over.

The record shows that US behavior hasn't been that good. Since the US does has a lot of power, an improvement in US behavior can go a long way.

Instead of looking for enemies over there, we should be most concerned about our behavior over here. If everyone would do that the world would be a better place.

[ladyVet]

134. But, America! I can hear it now. We have to be the leader of the world, no matter what.

It makes me sick.

We should look at cleaning our own yard before we start worrying over other people's yards.

We have a bad habit of thinking we know what's best for everybody else, and then it turns out we aren't any better than the "terrorists". If there's any doubt, we can go back and ask the people who were in this country before the Europeans wandered in.

War for money is evil. War for power is evil. War for religion is evil. War is evil.

[clarice]

78. + 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 NT.

[snagglepuss]

85. More Muslims have been by Muslims than anyone else over the last 100 years.

[btrflykng9]

123. This is a false equivalence.

Why is it that every time a terrorist attack happens elsewhere in the world, it becomes a need to say how we are just as bad? It's mass murder, not a contest on who is the most moral or immoral nation. People were murdered, innocent people, that is all that matters right now.

A lot of people do bad things. Isn't it possible to say this was done, this is wrong, and it is a crime, without feeling so guilty about it that we also have to blame everyone else on the planet who has ever done something wrong as well?

[cpwm17]

125. I was just noting that claims of the Muslim world being so violent are exaggerated. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

150. Thank YOU!

I get so sick of it sometimes.

[btrflykng9]

153. +1

[smirkymonkey]

149. +1000

[Yorktown]

143. You appear to confuse Islam with the Middle East

[merrily]

145. I know Christian, Muslim & Jewish Arabs and Muslims who are not from the Middle East. I am clear.

Thanks, anyway.

[geek tragedy]

62. they're also at war with moderate Islam and Shia Muslims. nt

[Yorktown]

144. There is quite a bunch of Shia extremists too

And lots of 'moderate' muslims support extreme parts of Islam.

50% of muslims worldwide support death for imaginary crimes

[LittleBlue]

13. WE HAVE BEEN AT WAR SINCE EARLY 2014. We didn't take them seriously. We even armed Islamists

Obama called Isis the jayvee team. He gave weapons to Islamists who gave them to Isis. The CIA trained "moderate" Islamists who turned around and joined Isis. They were executing boys in Syria for the crime of blasphemy and selling women in markets. And still we armed them!

How did they get those guns and Toyotas? WE FUCKING GAVE IT TO THEM! I hope a congressional investigation happens to determine how many of our people and innocent Syrian minorities were killed with our weaponry.

[hifiguy]

21. Cheney and the Chimp lost 363 TONS of CASH

in Iraq. $12 billion. In $100 bills, 726,000 pounds. That buys a lot of weapons and friends.

363 tons is the weight of arond 50 full grown African bull elephants or 242 CARS weighing 3000 lbs each.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1

Want to guess how much of it wound up in the hands of what is now ISIS?

[LittleBlue]

39. It's making me angry reading that

The fact that those war criminals aren't in prison is a perversion of justice.

[cpwm17]

54. That's true.

I was working the flight line at Baghdad International Airport in the summer of 2004 when I marshaled in a C-17 (the article you posted said they used C-130's, I think it was a C-17 that I saw if I remember correctly) aircraft filled with pallets of cash. Many of the airmen I was working with posed with the cash.

[hifiguy]

68. I have to ask what the average airman/woman

thought about this. What did you and your squadron/platoon think? (Sorry I don't know the proper unit name for the AF). How nuts Cheney and his pet monkey were?

[cpwm17]

79. They were mostly conservative or not political, at least the white members.

I was enlisted and I worked aircraft maintenance so we stayed on base. I was pretty rare in that I opposed what we were doing, from what I saw, though generally it was a good idea to keep that stuff to yourself.

One person I was with in Baghdad said we should commit mass-murder against the Iraqis. I heard no one say anything against him, except I pushed back the best I could without being confrontational. The same person had an unhealthy fascination with all the dead and injured being evacuated to the airport and local hospital. (I was there actually in the spring of 2004, during the deadliest period)

[leftyladyfrommo]

14. He just said we would do whatever is necessary.

Remember how Bush kept saying only history would tell about his actions? Well, I think history has spoken.

Thank you Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld.

[hifiguy]

15. War then, war now, war forever.

The smart thing to do would be for the US to look conspicuously away and whistle while other nations deal with these barbarians using whatever means they see fit to use. Putin, the French, whomever.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. Putin has already started.

Britain and France will probably join in here shortly.

[magical thyme]

146. France started bombing ISIS in Syria back in September

they are already there. Now they will escalate.

[leftyladyfrommo]

147. I didn't realize that until I saw some articles on it

They've done a lot.

[6chars]

58. just looking ahead a move

if ISIS (sorry for jumping to prejudicial conclusions) commits attacks against Russia, Hezbollah, France trying to draw them in, do you think they are not going to go after US? I guess we can just turn the other cheek.

[Bonhomme Richard]

19. A shitstorm is going to rain on their heads.

I feel for the innocent that are going to get caught up in it.

[philosslayer]

22. Please enlighten me...

Who is "they"?

[Bonhomme Richard]

26. ISIS n/t

[philosslayer]

27. so what do you propose?

We've already been bombing the hell out of them. "Boots on the ground"? You ready to sign up?

[Bonhomme Richard]

30. The countries in that region need to get their shit together and..

do it.
What is your solution?

[philosslayer]

34. You're the one screaming about the 'shitstorm'

Not me.

[hifiguy]

42. The last time that happened was the glory days of the

Ottoman Turkish sultanate. Ever since, the ME has been an armed madhouse fueled by a millennium-old blood feud between Shi'a and Sunni, and every kind of tribal hatred imaginable, re-stoked by British and French meddling in the 19th and 20th centuries, though they were very much Johnny-come-latelies.

It has been the nuthouse of the earth for a very long time.

[merrily]

47. Yeah, Republicans are always going on about sultanates and caliphates, too.

Thank God, US history is fucking spotless!

[hifiguy]

52. The US basically stepped into the shoes of the British

and the French after those colonial empires dissolved, with more or less predictably bad results, going all the way back to the British-instigated but CIA-executed coup against Iran's democratic prime minister Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953.. But the deep-root causes are far older than Western meddling.

[merrily]

59. Those nations are millennia older than the US. We have "root causes" that date back to 1607 that

haven't been resolved. IOW, our entire history. And we're supposed to be enlightened. In fact, our country was born in the Age of Enlightenment. And we've had every advantage, including not having been attacked on our own soil until the 1990s.

Please stop posting as though they're so much worse than we are.

[hifiguy]

66. Well, we don't behead people with swords any more

or crucify heretics, or throw gay men off buildings and stone them to death. I'd say western civilization has made some strides in the last few hundred years while many in the ME are devolving towards atavistic bronze-age barbarism.

[merrily]

71. Hiroshima, Nagasaki, napalm, Abu Ghraib, etc..... so more noble and civilized?

Um, when did we behead with swords? Or crucify heretics? Cool. Let's take credit for stopping something we never did in the first place. We did stop drowning witches, though.

[randome]

72. It's not patriotic vanity to objectively say we are not the same, is it?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[hifiguy]

80. Humans are what they are - hairless apes.

Just look at the way we behave - we are territorial, greedy, tribal and violent. Just like our chimp cousins. And unlike chimps we invent reasons out of nothing to kill each other and devices for doing so more efficiently and on large scales/long distances. And nothing is going to change that save evolution and the acquisition of the sort of true reason and genuine wisdom which does not come from made-up external skydaddies. We will gave to become more like Vulcans in order to survive.

The same species that gave us Plato, Mozart, Shakespeare, Einstein, the Buddha and Nelson Mandela has also given us Chinghiz Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the Bush family. We are, taken as a species, a very mixed bag.

And to address a post one up, there is absolutely no way to resolve the propriety or the wrongness of using the atomic bomb in WW II. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese, including many, many civilians, would have died in a conventional invasion of the home islands. There was and is no good way to end a war with a population determined to fight to the last man, as the Japanese army did on every major battlefield/island in the Pacific theater.

[PersonNumber503602]

88. I believe the "correct" answer is that we're worse and all of the problems there are due to the west

Perhaps I am wrong though.

[randome]

114. Not one of these monsters claimed a sense of revenge.

Our hands are not clean but are we responsible for them beheading each other?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[leftynyc]

105. Or stone women

To death for getting raped or marry them off at 10 years old (legally) or use rape as a punishment. I have no problem saying as a woman that I'm blessed to live in the imperfect West.

[hifiguy]

107. And, thankfully, the "witch theory of causation"

is a thing of the fairly distant past.

[leftyladyfrommo]

43. Those countries are so broken

they can't do much to help themselves. When this is all over there isn't going to be a Middle East to go home to.

It's already a pile of rubble and now the temperatures in the area are going so high no one will be able to live there.

So what happens to all those people? What a mess.

[The_Casual_Observer]

28. This would be a very complicated war.

[leftyladyfrommo]

32. Isn't it always in the Middle East?

I wish they would just go away.

[merrily]

50. Wars have been complicated since World War II. Once people took off uniforms

and starting fighting amongst themselves within their own countries, we've fucked up every time we tried to intervene. Doesn't stop us, though.

[MisterP]

53. more intervention will only end well! this time's the charm!

(eh, we'll be fighting alongside IS by 2017 against the PMOI we tried to turn into our proxy

we like an-Nusra now, for heaven's sake)

[smirkymonkey]

151. Always, and everywhere they go they bring their problems with them.

They are failures at everything and they are lashing out at the rest of the world because of it.

[NYCButterfinger]

33. It might be time to close the borders here too.

It's time to wake up and realize that this is a war.

[merrily]

64. We haven't been trying to do that? Oh, my.

[840high]

84. agree 100%.

[NYCButterfinger]

35. Get out of the Middle East!!! Close certain immigration

customs.

[merrily]

67. Certain immigration customs? What does that mean?

[NYCButterfinger]

93. We're going to have to be a little tight on immigration

[merrily]

97. Repeating a vague statement doesn't make it clearer or answer my question. Please be specific.

[NYCButterfinger]

130. The U.S. will have to stop people from these countries with these terrorist ties from entering the

country. Plain and simple. It's time to stop being diplomatic at times and understand that the U.S. may have to get tough.

[merrily]

131. You'd close our borders based on national origin? Didn't we do something like that back in the

early part of the 20th century? Wonder why we stopped (she asked rhetorically).

[Live and Learn]

65. And the idiocy continues... nt

[Skittles]

76. it's what happens when you let a nitwit like Dubya poke a stick into the hornet's nest

[hifiguy]

82. Putting that blithering nitwit in charge of a country

was like giving bottles of whiskey and keys to a Ferrari to teenaged boys. Nothing good could or did come of it.

[Skittles]

89. as much as I detest the people who voted for IWR

I have an even lower opinion on anyone who ever voted for Dubya

[PersonNumber503602]

91. Those guys for sure managed to make things much worse.

Although I think it's safe to say that the stick poking went on well before what too. What actually really gets me is that our current administration seems to have just as much facilitating stick poking over there. Are we pretty much screwed either way?

And yes, I am fully aware that the region would still have major problems if it wasn't for the US/Western meddling.

[Jester Messiah]

83. Article 5. [nt]

[Initech]

87. WWIII is only a matter of time at this point.

[polly7]

90. WWIII started with the invasion of Iraq. nt.

[hifiguy]

94. Not so sure about that.

The entire civilized world - East, West, and elsewhere - has a vested interest in resolving the never-ending madness in the ME, even if that means imposing the peace of the grave. That realization is not one that will take long to dawn on all of the world's major powers.

Not advocating for it, just reading the lessons of the history of our species and drawing reasonable inferences therefrom

[Alittleliberal]

109. Yep

We need that oil to feed our machines. If the "civilized" world deems it appropriate the would not hesitate to blast a couple hundred million people away. Also not advocating for it, just stating the reality of the situation.

[DCBob]

100. This incident is going to change things significantly.

I think its a tipping point and is going to galvanize and unify Europe, US and most of free world. We will see a massive military response against AQ and ISIL and anyone else deemed to be involved in this.

[Marr]

106. It's going to have a big effect on the political makeup of Europe as well, I expect.

It's going to empower the right.

[NYCButterfinger]

118. Most likely.

[liberal N proud]

101. Oh boy, we get to use some of those weapons we bought from the military industrial complex

Then we can buy some more.

Amazing how that works.

[hifiguy]

108. Let the Russians do the necessary dirty work.

It's their turn. The US should leave it to the Europeans and let them proceed however they wish. Putin is the kind of totally ruthless SOB needed in a situation like this.

[backscatter712]

119. And the French.

Foreign military interventions work best when we can get lots of the big powers working together to wreck common enemies.

Why did our intervention work well in Kosovo and Serbia? We had most of Europe working with us, and even Iran, fucking Iran, was giving us guarded praise for protecting the lives of Bosnian Muslims.

That's what we need to do, and it's something the Obama administration is far better at than the Bushies - building coalitions, building international consensus, and bringing the weight of the entire world down on enemies.

I'm good with letting Russia and France unleash some of their anger on ISIS.

[hifiguy]

121. I am as well.

The civilized world, East, West, North and South, shares a common interest in getting rid of ISIS and forcefully imposing some kind of order on the ME. Iran might even be willing to assist or stand on the sidelines. This shit cannot go on, and everyone knows it.

[tammywammy]

120. France is a member of NATO. The US will be involved in whatever the next step is. n/t

[backscatter712]

122. Yep. That's a safe bet.

Our military involvement in Syria's about to be kicked up quite a bit.

ISIS needs to be put down. It needs to be a big international coalition that does it, we can't just pull a Bush, shout "YEEHAW!" and think we can accomplish anything. But I do think that it's time to inflict some casualties on the fuckers.

[liberal N proud]

126. Bu,,, but we have to support the military industrial complex

What will the oligarchs do if they can't play war with other mothers children?

War has a purpose...



Make someone rich!

[Marr]

104. This entire situation is tragic. For the French victims, obviously-- but also for Syrian refugees.

This is going to change the political reality around accommodating Syrian refugees in Europe *completely*. The people who've supported them will be toast in the next elections, and the walls are going to go up everywhere. Those people will have nowhere to go. I expect these attackers would be fine with that, too-- radical Islam's primary target, before anyone else, is moderate/secular Islam.

[ladyVet]

135. So why can't we just let them have what they want?

-- radical Islam's primary target, before anyone else, is moderate/secular Islam.

Seriously, if we just left other nations alone, then we wouldn't be having this kind of trouble. Make it clear they can run any ME nation how they want, and leave them to it. I'd feel bad for the citizens who wouldn't fare too well under that rule -- women, gays, non-Muslims -- but when the people got tired of it, they'd fix it. What has our interference gained them, other than to topple the secular governments?

Except, we want their oil and other natural resources. So, let's push the terrorism aspect, get people worked up, enrich the oil barons and the MIC folks. They can't ever make enough money. It doesn't matter how many die.

[Marr]

136. Let ISIS have what they want?

I think there are lots of reasons not to let groups like ISIS just have what they want-- from basic human rights to pragmatic concerns like avoiding constant refugee crises in Europe as millions flee the religiously insane hell holes that groups like ISIS create.

I'm no fan of western military adventures in the ME, and I agree it's pretty much all been about resource control. At the same time, I do think we need to do what we can to empower moderate/secular forces in region. We're living with nuclear weapons now, after all, and fundamentalists are basically absolutist death cults. I don't think the species can any longer afford to let those types control influential regions of the globe and just give them a few hundred years to sort it out.

[TheFarS1de]

142. Isn't that how Hitler got out of control ?

From a bunch of fools who refused to deal with the issue in the early stages . You can't turn a blind eye . Stupid idea.

[smirkymonkey]

152. Exactly. They aren't going to stop with having power over a few poor, piddly little countries in

the Middle East. They want it all, especially Europe. They are insane and you can't reason with them. They must be exterminated.