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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThere is a serious anti-Christian vibe around here
I understand the point being made about hypocrisy with respect to how the RW responds to Muslim shooters vs. non-Muslim ones, but DU is not the right wing. The response here to terror attacks committed by Muslims was not the same as the Fox News response. With that in mind, I think it is a bit odd that there is so much anti-Christian sentiment in response to the Planned Parenthood shooting.
It seems like some on DU are doing the same sort of thing that we accuse the RW/Fox News types of doing - except with respect to Christians instead of Muslims. It's one thing if it's done as a satire to make a rhetorical point, but in some cases it seems like there is genuine disdain for Christians in a way that is similarly unsettling to the disdain for Muslims that one finds on the right.
Also, many seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the shooter is a RW Christian who attacked Planned Parenthood for ideological reasons before there is any actual evidence that this is in fact the case. Again, this sort of assumption is eerily similar to the RW assumption that a suicide bombing automatically was committed by a Muslim. Of course, it is very likely the case that this shooter was a RW Christian (just like suicide bombings are likely to have been carried out by Muslims), but the facts are not in yet.
What disturbs me the most is the seemingly visceral seething hatred against religious Christians that emanate from several of the posts that I have read in the wake of this shooting - the same sort of reaction that most DUers railed against when directed against Muslims in the wake of, for example, the Paris attacks.
Has anyone else noticed this and does anyone feel the same way I do?
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KG
(28,751 posts)
TheBlackAdder
(28,167 posts).
Groups or organizations that use the power of religion to amass power and wealth at the expense of the emotional enslavement of their members by the use of cultish tactics such as deception, manipulation, punishment, shunning, isolation. They are the ones questioned.
The belief that there is some type of Christian persecution is not at play, but requires introspection on those who hold that belief. It seems that any time there is a challenge to a religion, a certain subset will claim they are being persecuted. This is the same we are seeing in the Muslim community--being painted with a broad and aggressive brush.
As someone who was raised in a Methodist & Presbyterian family, I benefitted from the strength of its majority community. Yet, many in the church took offense to the slightest affront, whether real or imagined. Persecution runs deep in Christianity, it is a major tool used to create a bonding--sharing a common plight. Most every religion uses various forms of commonality to retain members, even if it is against their desires, the control and influence of early indoctrination affects the psyche.
As one gets older and opens themselves to critical thinking, something that shunned from many sects, their objectivity increases. Destructive cults and sects operate by keeping people ignorant, oppressed, fearful, etc.. Many times, they do not want family or outsiders to make contact with their members for fear of having their frauds exposed. It are these sects that one must be afraid of. If the messaging is solid, no amount of dissuasion will change a person. It's when the messaging is fraudulent, that's when other means are needed to retain membership. With these groups, it's just power and money, with religion as the tool to deliver it.
.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am just observing a response with respect to a potential Christian terror attack being different to the response to an Islamic terror attack. It just seems like the mirror-image of what one sometimes sees on the other side.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Of course you aren't!
You are just suggesting a serious anti-Christian vibe
That's totally different!
artislife
(9,497 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)A vibe is a distinctive emotional atmosphere.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)..... and Christians are an individual group.
randys1
(16,286 posts)
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)
peace13
(11,076 posts)Follow the very wise words and things will work out.
Warpy
(111,148 posts)You know, someone in a majority protected by law from persecution or even paying taxes. Gotta love how fast some of them want to climb up on that cross when some of their fellow Christians turn out to be ignorant, vicious assholes who stole the name without knowing what it means.
Of course, they're part of the problem. This phony solidarity with the dregs of this country is killing us all. They need to call the haters out on their hatred and rejection of the teachings of Jesus and their consistent violation of the commandment about bearing false witness against their neighbors.
Oh, wait, it's easier to throw stones at peaceful people. I get it.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)-AND- reinforce associations with their in-groups.
Consequently, the murderer will be painted with attributes of people's favorite outgroups.
On DU he's a RW republican gunloving christian who is also psychologically impaired with a record of social deviance manifest in arrest charges that were dropped.
We really don't know much about HIM but we know much about US and we don't want him to be in US.
Quackers
(2,256 posts)
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)Quackers
(2,256 posts)
tblue37
(65,227 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)On further reflection, I would tone that characterization down.
roguevalley
(40,656 posts)when someone does a shit deed. That is incredibly admirable. There is also very little effort among a lot of people to separate Christians as a whole from ass holes when they do something awful. You can find it a lot.
I do remember when civil rights efforts were happening in the 50's and 60's that all manner of believer walked with African Americans at the front of marches, rabbis, nuns, priests, preachers and the like to help find justice for all of us. Martin Luther King himself was a righteous preacher.
A lot of Christians, more than you can know are good and as liberal as anyone else. They hold the same truths evident as anyone else but they get lumped. Too many bunch and mass blame them which they don't for Muslims. There are too many outlets in the media that would have you believe all Christians are fundamentalist evangelicals without a thought in their heads but those are the ones who get the air time. The millions of others who work hard to be good and decent are left out. Sort of like the Muslims if you think about it. You aren't wrong, OP. Religious get lumped with the bad guys here and it isn't persecution. Its the way things roll.
Sometimes you can't see your friends around your anger and your preconceived notions. Its sad but it happens a lot here.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)the most anti-Christian conduct I've ever seen is by people like Franklin Graham and Ralph Reed.
Not sure what label to use for them. Or rather, I have some very workable labels but won't type them in polite company.
Cerridwen
(13,252 posts)I've noticed a long time anti-Christian vibe coming from r/w "christians" for a long time.
Maybe take it up on r/w boards where the anti-Christian "christians" hang out and gloat in their hatred of Christ's teachings.
annabanana
(52,791 posts)
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)In the Bush era, muslims and liberals were demonized.
Now, it's the turn of conservatives and christians.
The MSM and 1%ers deliberately make us hate each other to take our attention away from economic issues and foreign policy.
That doesn't mean these aren't important issues, of course they are, but the rock-throwers exacerbate these political conflicts to keep us at each others' throats.
Once you realize that you can start to see how the lines are drawn for each side and the narrative is created.
Logical
(22,457 posts)
The right wing Christian nuts have earned their own bad "vibe."
Nay
(12,051 posts)is a RW Christian deranged man because he shot up a PP clinic instead of, say, a theatre or a mall. It's a good bet, and we're allowed to discuss who we think it is before anything is confirmed. DU is not the newspaper of record; it's a discussion board. Emphasis on discussion.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and an anti-religion extremist is the targets they choose for their hostility and aggression.
Oh, yes, and there are a lot fewer anti-religious extremists. Thank goodness.
Reading so many shockingly absolutist messages in the little nest of anti-religion extremists here suggests to me that religion itself probably doesn't encourage extremism in the religious majority nearly as much as I'd been given to assume -- given the large majority of religious people in our country, it clearly also constrains most of it.
For constraint of our anti-religion extremists, we have to thank above all their small numbers. What they might do if they were a majority or got control of national government -- well, we have lots of comments here to suggest those nightmares.
In the old days social disapproval would keep most extremists fairly tamped down and cause others to move to urban areas, where they'd find hangouts frequented by others like them. But it's not the old days and they can find each other from their easy chairs. Notably, there are a bunch of atheist and anti-theist forums out there...
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Let's repeat that.
"Oh, yes, and there are a lot fewer anti-religious extremists. "
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)They conflate atheists making fun of believers on the internet (what other form of atheist "extremism" is shown here?) with people shooting doctors, bombing abortion clinics and gay nightclubs, shooting atheists just for being atheists, torturing their children to death for either "biblical discipline" or "god will heal" nonsense, murdering them in "exorcisms" and other Christian-motivated murder in the real world.
The ONLY difference is the target? Bullshit, libel and insanity! Where are the victims of atheism-motivated murder like the above? And no - bullshit kneejerk debunked repetitive glurge about "shooting victims if they said they believed in God" is never validated for a pretty obvious reason; it's fantasy.
But it's not just murder we have to deal with. Where were the atheist millions over Prop 8? Where are the atheist WBC hatemongers? Where are the atheists tormenting women at PP, stalking Muslims at their mosques. pointing guns at federal officers while protecting lawbreaking ranchers, forcing teens into polyandrous marriages with old men? Where is the atheist pedophile enabling ring shuffling kiddy-fiddlers off to new jobs instead of handing them over to the cops, intimidating victims and resisting any real investigations with the thin black line of silence that makes omerta look like a chatshow?
It's shite like this letting vile Christian extremism off the hook by comparing it in asinine fashion with internet tweaking from atheists (and it has to be internet tweaking because absent a few celebrities if we try it in real life we are either killed, beaten, fired, or ostracized) that proves where "liberal" Christians really stand; and it's not with the ones who limit their"extremism" to making internet jokes.
Deny and Shred
(1,061 posts)Great post.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)
Mariana
(14,854 posts)atheists aren't doing the same kind of awful things some religious people do - and much worse, apparently - is because there are so few atheists in this country that they have no political or societal power. I'm afraid the excellent points you've made will have no effect.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)It's as if a right-wing Christian nutbag can't be called a right-wing Christian nutbag without someone taking exception.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)to claim that right-wing Christian nutbags aren't really Christians at all. It doesn't matter if the the right-wing nutbag identifies as a Christian. You do see that from time to time on this board. Often it's done by implication, by putting the word Christian in quotes.
IRL I've heard liberal Christians simply say outright, "Well, I don't consider X to be a Christian, because (insert ways they interpret the Bible differently here)."
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)
MineralMan
(146,255 posts)That's what that is. Those right-wing fundamentalist arses aren't TRVE CHRISTINAS™.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)I remember reading your posts about the TRVE CHRISTINAS™ on DC back in the day.
You are, of course, absolutely correct.
Beartracks
(12,799 posts)... in which ALL Christians are assumed to be right-wing nuts because they all worship a "mythical sky being" and their authorities officially hew to the idea that gay = bad.
====================
randys1
(16,286 posts)create an argument around him, he who does not exist, that is.
I mean it is CRAZY, I have to be sensitive towards their belief in nonsense...NO, i dont
And I dont give Muslims anymore credibility than I give them, the difference is the Muslims I have known or known of are more loving than most xtians I know or know of.
The basis of anti Woman is RELIGION whether it is xtians or any other religion
and not all religions, but the big ones
Logical
(22,457 posts)
Laurian
(2,593 posts)I am not religious, but have often admired religious people. Those I admire do not wear their religion on their sleeves or try to push their religious views on others. They are mostly private about their religion, but are compassionate and giving without reservation.
However, I have some relatives who constantly spout religious doctrine to the point of distraction. They are judgemental and uncaring for anyone other than their fellow cult members.
The later have greatly influenced my opinion of religion.....I avoid them whenever possible as their rigid stances are the opposite of what I always thought Christianity represented. As soon as someone starts quoting scripture and expressing judgement of others (in hateful and ugly ways, I might add) based on their religious beliefs, I'm done.
There is a difference between religion guiding one's personal life - and to some extent one's political priorities, vs. religion being taken as certainty that one is right and that politics should force others to accept that one is right.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)...I consider anyone who buys into that magical thinking as deluded.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Thank you Oberlin for posting this.
We have discussed this issue long ago on DU and recognized that there is a difference between rw christianity and Christians. We basically back then decided to agree that when the word Christianity is used here on DU it would always mean rw christianity unless specified differently. Thus those of us who are Christians and liberals on this board just ignore the generalization. This OP is discussing it again.
But lately there are a lot of posts like yours Chisolm. That brand all of us as bad. Yours is what the OP is talking about. I do not tell you what to believe. In fact I do not even ask what you believe but you do not give me the same opportunity. In order to belong to DU all I have to be is a Democrat and preferably a progressive.
And the people here who know me KNOW that if I am anything I am liberal, a progressive since the 40s. And guess what my progressive values do not conflict with my Christian values.
But according to you I do not deserve to be treated respectfully because you do not agree. Well too bad - I have never asked you to agree. And I respect what you believe as your right.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)I'm sorry my words led you to feel that way, that was not intended. Delusion can be simple and it can be complex. We all have different delusions at different times. For instance, I was once deluded in thinking that the woman who broke up with me would eventually come back. She didn't. Robert Deal suffers from the delusion that his actions will result in the abolishment of abortion in this country. It won't. Some delusions are harmless, but when they drive someone to kill in the name of religion, I have a problem. But nowhere have a I said that all people who are religious are "bad".
I'll tell you a little secret: my fiancee is actively religious, not just paying it lip service. Also, I feel like I follow Jesus' teaching moreso than 98% of those people I know and, from the looks of it much of the time, those I don't know. I believe Jesus lived and I believe he was the inspiration for many legends and tales and that his teachings helped form the moral codes we try to live by today. My problem is the idea that his father is a omniscient being that is control of everything including, apparently, the outcome of every sporting event in the United States. That is what I'm referring to when I say "magical thinking". It's not even necessary to have such a being yet people are willing to kill for it. That's a big problem for me about religion.
Please understand that I don't base my respect of someone based on whether they are religious or not, or else I wouldn't respect my fiancee the way I do. I also wouldn't have any respect for nearly my entire family and nearly all my friends who claim to be religious, despite their frequent hypocrisy. I respect your right to believe whatever you want, jwirr. But when religion boils over into taking an AK-47 and mowing down a family planning center, surely you can respect my position on such religion-driven motives.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)magical thinking. The God I believe in gave me free will and thus I make history not him. I am responsible for my own actions. And I must pay the consequences.
And I also recognize that these shooters who claim to be acting in God's name are using Christianity for their own purposes. And I do think that there are christian groups (Operation Rescue) who incite this kind of action. I truly think that they are the biggest enemy of Christianity that ever lived. They have unfortunately become the face of christianity with there tv preachers and their politicians like trump.
After this thread is over I am going to go back to the practice that we on DU established long ago of recognizing that when others say christian they are most likely speaking of rw churches.
Thank you for your kind words - I do feel better now. You have always been one of the people I considered one of my friends here.
ChisolmTrailDem
(9,463 posts)
WiffenPoof
(2,404 posts)I have a wife who is a born-again Christian. I have no problem with my relationship with her even though I lean strongly towards Atheism - Philosophically as a Existentialist.
I am able to exist with a Christian because I respect the fact that she has these beliefs and I would never put her down for those beliefs. We both agree that it is not one's relationship with God, but the shortcomings of organized religion.
Anyway....I thought your post was excellent and pretty much nails how I feel about the Christian community.
-Paige
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It's a really bad habit to dehumanize groups of people.
Proserpina
(2,352 posts)He is outlaw, beyond the pale, a wolf preying on the human flock, as it were.
B2G
(9,766 posts)that absolutely no information is actually available on him by now.
I mean nothing.
redstateblues
(10,565 posts)Good post.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Reproductive rights are being attacked, clinics are being threatened, burned and people are being murdered.
Your feelings are hurt because the underlying ideology which is responsible if being rightfully blamed? Bummer.
RKP5637
(67,086 posts)
And much of the intensity of the anti-woman, anti-choice reality comes from
the right wing "Christian" groups that use scripture as the basis for their
dislike of women controlling their own lives rather than subjugating themselves
to men.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)The entire right wing is to blame for this. When you go around telling people that PP are baby killers, etc. and you imbue your rhetoric with religious authority, you encourage fanaticism.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I would point out that my feelings are not hurt. I was just making an observation and wondering if anyone else had noticed the same vibe. I certainly agree with your comments about women and choice.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Christians.
You didn't mention the victims or attacks on reproductive rights and women at all in your OP. You didn't express concern for those who go around telling people that PP are baby killers, etc. and imbue rhetoric with religious authority and encourage fanaticism.
Nope, it's all about the people who are angry about it.
Pfffffffft.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I do not believe Christians are oppressed in the US in any way, shape, or form.
Again, this is just an observation about the response to this attack.
Just as when folks at DU point out the way RWers/Fox News respond to Islamic terrorist attacks - that does not in any way diminish the impact of the attack itself nor take the focus away from its victims.
CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Laffy Kat
(16,373 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)myopic in their worldview. They worry about words and gosh...seem to skip over the deed of their supposed fellow religious peers.
You are spot on with every single word! Bravo! 
Personally I think this is just standard shit stirring since you can look in GD and have to look hard for Xtian bashing in threads.
Kath1
(4,309 posts)Everyone's thoughts should be with the victims and their loved ones.
Yes, I do have sort of an anti-christian and especially anti-catholic vibe. And I was a practicing catholic for 30+ years.
I woke up one day and realized I have always used contraception, I believe in choice, I support gay rights, etc. Why live a lie?
My anti "vibe" comes from the fact that I have been judged and condemned by those who I thought were my family and friends who (supposedly) believe in "Judge not not and you shall not be judged" and "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Can't explain all of the nastiness that came my way. Sorry some Christian's feelings are hurt. Poor baby.
And now, at age 57, I live happily with my partner in a same-sex relationship that a lot of christians would love to prohibit.
That's where my "vibe" comes from.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)We have the right to feel pissed off that they want us to give up or rights or worse, die because of who we are.
Fuck 'em.
And peace and love to you. 
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)
Maeve
(42,271 posts)And I put it in quotes because most of the one doing the hurting are self-identified as Christian but never got the "love thy neighbor" or "do unto others" bits....
Some are strongly anti-religion and strongest anti- the religion they have seen the most, known the best. When you have preachers who advocate killing gays and candidates for the presidency that suck up to them, you're going to see some real hatred returned. DU is a fairly safe place for venting that anger and hurt.
I would suggest that the liberal (and more LW Christian) response to such posts and posters is to try and understand, disagree politely when it seems feasible and let it go.
Peace.
RKP5637
(67,086 posts)mentally. For me, I have no use for any religion.
Maeve
(42,271 posts)Some use it as a spur to treat others well and to help those who are in need.
Many of us do not need the promise of heaven, or a smiling deity to follow a peaceful and giving path. But I think we should accept the ones who feed the hungry, clothe the poor, and work to make a decent life for all obtainable no matter what faith they profess (or don't profess). Yes, denounce the greedy, the oppressors, the haters--just don't become one in return.
RKP5637
(67,086 posts)Sadly, the obnoxious often get the spotlight. The brutality of some to others under the name of their god over eons is startling.
Now, it has become a political wedge.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I REFUSE to go to a church on Sunday and have a preacher, who doesn't even know me personally, stand up and tell everyone that they are worthless, filthy sinners, "Our righteousness is as filthy rags" etc.
I REFUSE to submit to the verbal abuse and emotional abuse wrought by the foundational premises of Christianity:ORIGINAL SIN and SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT.
Nobody can live up to their standards because they think Jesus was perfect. We all hurt people, we all make mistakes. Most of us are doing the best we can and don't need verbal abuse from a minister who thinks his way is the only way or you're going to hell.
I will NOT put up with that sort of verbal abuse from a pulpit on Sunday. I had to find the strength to walk out. ALL CHRISTIANS believe in this emotional abuse, because you have to believe in original sin, otherwise you would not need substitutionary atonement through accepting Jesus. I refuse to be a Christian because original sin has destroyed an awful lot of people.
I prayed and read my bible and never felt God or the holy spirit inside me. Nothing changed. I decided it was BS. I decided it was a group delusion, that I was supposed to feel what everyone else said they felt.
I left a long time ago because I was ready to crawl in a hole and die. It was either that or leave. My mistake was taking all that bullshit made up doctrine from many centuries ago seriously. I learned not to take it seriously for my sanity and mental health.
And I have never seen any evidence that God exists. If he exists then he better let me know about it.
If you want to know more about this read HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU, by John Bradshaw, Ph.D. He is an ex-Jesuit priest who says that we have an addictive society because people are trying to escape the unearned pain, shame and guilt that society places on everybody. Basically, "If you don't act the way I want you to, you are bad."
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Can't we have one day where we point out that fundie Xtian values can be weaponized against women?
CanonRay
(14,084 posts)creates its own bad vibe. No help needed from DU.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)There is no Christian group out there that controls territory, saws off heads, burns people alive, and bombs airplanes.
So trying to equate Robert Lewis Dear to the guys who committed the Paris attacks or who brought down the Russian airliner is completely ridiculous. This guy appears to be a lone wolf. And we really don't even have any information yet on what his true motives were. By the look of him and what we know so far...he seems like just a whackjob.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)When you go around telling people that PP are baby killers, etc. and you imbue your rhetoric with religious authority, you encourage fanaticism.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Xtians don't "saw off heads"....but the mainstream do indeed support death in many ways, including state-sponsored executions and many others support the death penalty for Ugandan gays. Xtians don't "blow up airplanes" although the car bomb was freaking invented by the IRA, a Christian terrorist group.
Remember OKC? Yeah, that was white Christians too. The smug and superior claims of victimization and oppression are nonsense.
TeddyR
(2,493 posts)Support "state-sponsored executions," including a fair number of folks on DU. That isn't an idea that is unique to the RW. I agree that there is a fringe-lunatic portion of the far right that supports the death penalty for Ugandan gays but to claim that is mainstream among all Christians (and I don't think you are but not sure what you mean by "many others"
is laughable.
Calista241
(5,586 posts)Shall we burn them all at the stake? Perhaps we should just lock them up?
Maybe we could avoid all the blood by just burning all the bibles in a massive book burning. My point is that many people here, in the aftermath of this tragedy, are being just as fanatical about Christians as we accuse them of being on Planned Parenthood.
In 2014, 71% of the US identifies as Christian. Yes, that number is down from years past, but Christianity in the US is not going anywhere anytime soon. And i refuse to believe that 71% of our population are terrorists in waiting, just itching to shoot up a planned parenthood office.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)And keep fighting for our rights against those who wish this were a theocracy and support Planned Parenthood.
Your implication that I would encourage our condone violence, imprisonment or other Hitler-like tactics is disgusting.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)of someone who instantly jumps to the conclusion that you would like to torture and murder people whose words you don't like, even though you have not even hinted at such a thing? Where does all that violent and destructive imagery come from? It certainly didn't follow from anything you wrote. it's very strange, I don't understand it at all.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
Ilsa
(61,690 posts)they don't offend the sensibilities of uninformed or uninterested bystanders - people with no skin in the game (they don't realize their brother is gay, their married sister needed an abortion, etc.).
RWCNJs have dreamed up plenty of ways to hypocritically murder people they believe to be "unworthy".
I'm an active member of a Christian church, BTW, and I am disgusted by these people.
procon
(15,805 posts)You're only making a weak comparison of the methods religious terrorists use to kill their victims, but not that both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are engaged in appalling acts of depravity under a mistaken notion of faith.
America has a long history of allowing various Christian sects and cults to do whatever they want to within the communities where they predominate. Remember Jim Jones, or David Koresh of the Branch Davidians, and Amish communities? Warren Jeffs' polygamist cult was allowed to sexually assault children for years because his followers in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint controlled the adjacent towns and ran the sheriff's department.
Christian terrorists have blown up buildings, set off bombs in clinics, fairs and parks, and crashed a plane into a building in Texas, but if not for the better security and law enforcement measures in the USA, they would be doing everything their Muslim counterparts are doing in the ME, and more.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)But you are being purposely blind if you can't see a difference between the way these two religions work.
Sure you got radicals on all sides. It's always been that way and always will. There are plenty of lone wolf crazies out there who interpret holy texts to justify all sorts of violence.
But tell me...what Christian group right now, today, is equivalent to Islamic State? Which group, in operation today, is equivalent to Al-Quada? Just name one. Which western, Christian government, in operation today, acts just like Saudi Arabia?
I'm agnostic. I don't have a horse in this fight. Both these religions can be viewed as oppressive. But I can see a very clear difference of which one is more severe and radical in 2015. And so can everyone else who has a brain.
840high
(17,196 posts)procon
(15,805 posts)Radical Christian fundamentalists share the same intent as radical Muslim fundamentalists in forcing their extremist views on everyone else. Given the opportunity Christian fundamentalists would be just as violent except that we live in a country governed by laws and rights that work to curtail some of their efforts. Even now, those safeguards are under constant assault by religious fanatics convinced that their special deity created an America solely for Christians and they are compelled to create their very own theocracy.
Look at the slow, insidious creep of religion over the last decade that has intruded into every mainstream practice from commerce to government. What was once impossible and too ridiculous to be taken seriously, like creationism and tax money funding religion, or businesses claiming religious carve outs, has crept into the public domain and become acceptable. It shows no sign of stopping.
While the whole country starts wailing in paranoid terror over a tiny fraction Muslims who join mad cults, the cults of Christian fundamentalists are killing people at an American medical clinic because they oppose a woman's legal reproductive right to seek an abortion. Republican presidential candidates are openly calling for a tiered class system based on religious belief that is supported by the majority of their voters. They won't be content at stopping there, but just imagine the possibilities that will bring if elected.
840high
(17,196 posts)many have Christian Fundies killed?
procon
(15,805 posts)goes to Christianity. Google the bloody stats yourself. In just one of the most recent examples, the Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda uses the Christianity that Western missionaries preached to them as their excuse for murdering over 400 people in the name if god. You want to single out Muslims, but they can't compete with Christianity's violent past. And if it's just killings in the US, the trophy still goes to Christian terrorists.
840high
(17,196 posts)world 9-11 did not happen?
Gore1FL
(21,100 posts)George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.
Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.
One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."
Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."
Iraq was worse than 9/11 by a lot.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Christians are way ahead even if you use today.
BTW, that piece of shit liar used relatively innocent men and Women to fight in that war for him, people who joined to do what they saw as the right thing, only to be sent to kill in some fucking theater production called "Shock and Awe"
prick
Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)They also provide material support to those who do kill people and all of it is theologically driven.
To claim that this is fundamentally different than any other form of theologically driven terrorism simply because the methods of violence are different is just a bit ridiculous.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)There's this thing called history... it really does exist. Some of the greatest atrocities known to mankind have been committed in the name of Christianity. Including lopping off heads ("Off with their heads!" , burning people alive (Joan of Arc?) and well, you got me on the airplane thing but abortion clinics have been bombed in the name of Christianity. Then of course there's the genocide of Native Americans... I could go on and on.
It just so happens in this period of history, militant Muslims are the bad guys but Christians do NOT get a pass on this one by burying your head in the sand or turning a blind eye to history.
Also, as a member of the LGBT community there are Christian hate groups out there right now that would love to see us put to death. I don't know if they'd saw off our heads or burn us alive but dead is dead no matter how you get there.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)There is absolutely a movement to create Soldiers for Christ in the US and that same movement targets womens' health providers.
If our rule of law was just a bit more broken than it already is, you would absolutely see them behaving the way ISIS does.
Demit
(11,238 posts)You should look them up. The guy who murdered Dr Tiller in 2009 was a member of the Army of God. The guy who murdered Dr John Britton in 1994 was an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (he'd been excommunicated the year before for calls to violence on abortion). Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry, who wanted to build a “Christian nation,” challenged anti-abortion activists with the rallying cry “If you believe abortion is murder, act like it.”
The violence Christians do in the name of religion didn't end with the people being tortured during the Inquisition, or with heretics burned at the stake in England, or with the witches hanged in Salem. There are rightwing extremist Christian groups all around this country, and what they believe would curl your hair.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)misogynist, homophobic bigots who justify their hatred of all things not white, protestant, straight and male with Christianity. I don't give a shit if someone wants to believe in an invisible sky daddy, but when they start preaching anti-woman, anti-gay shit from the pulpit I'm going to call them on it.
The anti-choice vermin are STEEPED in religion and to sit there, in feigned wide-eyed innocence saying that the poor little snowflakes are being inaccurately portrayed turns my stomach.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Would you agree?
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)is your response?
I'm done here.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is to say, comparing the response to the shooting at Planned Parenthood to the response to terrorist attacks committed by followers of Islam.
For instance, there seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions about the attacker's motives and background before the facts are in.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Wow. It comes off as something very different. Perhaps it is the lack of direct verbiage the leaning on the furtive that causes this confusion?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)"It seems like some on DU are doing the same sort of thing that we accuse the RW/Fox News types of doing - except with respect to Christians instead of Muslims."
That was the general gist of what I was getting at.
randys1
(16,286 posts)treat Gay/LGBTQIA and Women folk.
Muslims are terrible in these areas, or most are I suppose, and as a feminist and huge Gay rights supporter that pisses me off, but anytime a christian points this out, I can usually find their concern to be questionable.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)The same person who can kill in the name of Jesus could very easily join Isis under different circumstances. I don't see where a terrorist capable of a mass killing would be able to draw the line at beheadings etc if they were manipulated by others.
I do not believe there is an equivalent organization of radical Christians in this country.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)We don't need to hear this one schmuck's personal ideological rant to know why he did what he did.
He's a Christian terrorist like many others.
When Christian churches start paying taxes I'll stop thinking nearly every one of them is a front for a terroristic agenda.
Tax the churches!!!! It is the elegant market based solution to what ails America.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Isn't that just an assumption you are making?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)It's not an illogical or unreasonable assumption.
Tack on that he drove thousands of miles to attack the PP in the most vile, anti-choice RW xtian stronghold in the country, makes it s near certainty.
Rex
(65,616 posts)when we don't dump on Islam...so then they pretend (with a thread) that Xtains are being persecuted on DU.
Just cause we won't hate on Islam...one of the most pathetic tactics I've ever seen on DU.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)There's your explanation.
Nay
(12,051 posts)And yes, the wide-eyed innocence act is getting really old. I know damn well that if I ever was unfortunate enough to be under the thumb of any of these people, I'd be treated like shit. So I have no problem calling these bastards out.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Agreed 100%.
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)LiberalElite
(14,691 posts)there are Christians and there are what I term "Christians", the latter being right-wingers full of hate. If anyone's version of Christianity encourages hate and violence, I suggest they re-read what the Bible says about reaping what you sow.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Christians are not oppressed here or anywhere else in the US. Criticism and free speech is neither hatred nor oppression. Get over your entitlement.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I also support criticism and free speech and feel no sense of entitlement.
I just noticed people jumping to conclusions and making assumptions and generalizations that I thought were not entirely dissimilar to some of what I have seen on the right with respect to Muslims and terror attacks.
tavernier
(12,369 posts)I have to remember that not everyone posting is an adult, nor have they walked in my shoes.
TheSarcastinator
(854 posts)Yeah. You poor oppressed Xtian.
tavernier
(12,369 posts)and jeebus and call my God dog, and have a great old laugh at my expense. But I belong to this party because I believe we accept people of all faiths or non faiths. And I'll stay despite your disrespect.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)
Skittles
(153,113 posts)when people get so upset over freaking comments on an online board
tavernier
(12,369 posts)Sorry if I came over sounding that way. I was merely stating a fact. There are many people who post in DU who feel an obligation to insult anyone different from them.
I know it's an online board; I've been a member on and off for many years. It used to be a bit less hostile before the bush/cheney years, but once the devil has been loosed (and for those of you who don't believe in fairies, surely you believe in demons following those years, no?)...
Anyway, have nice day! 😎
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)on in them. I don't give a shit what you think you had to do in your shoes, why you wore them, or what you think they enabled you to accomplish. Doubly so, since you just decided to dismiss people who don't agree with, or are frustrated with your beliefs as 'children'.
This is YOUR problem. Those are YOUR people shooting, blowing up, and hurting people. YOUR beliefs give them cover. They get to stand among you and assume a degree of normality, because you all share a foundational premise; 'my imaginary friend is real'.
That's what it boils down to. Your beliefs give them cover. I don't care if you tack on a qualifier, 'my imaginary friend is real and wants me to do X', and you complain that the people who say their imaginary friend told them to do 'Y' just read the book wrong.
If not for you, they would stand alone, making their claims about their imaginary friend and its proclamations. But no, you claim your friend is real, so too implying THEIR friend is real. You assume a common denominator, and then fork from there, they believe Y, and oh that's abhorrent and you'll have nothing do with it, right? Wrong. You breathe life into their claim. You give it basis. You build them a foundation to stand upon.
As long as you assent to share their core belief, the basis of their entire religion; this problem lies at YOUR feet.
You want to tell me your imaginary friend is real? That he wants you to love and be friends, and help people, and give, and take nothing back, and share, and be just an all around good guy or gal? Great. But you can't prove it. You can prove NONE of it. Not a shred. So when you grant that un-provable entity is real, you have not a LEG TO STAND ON when those assholes come back and say oh yeah, we believe in the same god, but he changed his mind, he told us Y, he told us to hate, to kill for our beliefs, he told us women are subservient and abortion is murder, and killing abortion providers is just fine and dandy, and sex is wrong, and you should hate yourself, because you are flawed and fallen and guilty and unredeemable, and on and on and on with the bile and the self-righteousness, and the vicious, mendacious, pure strain, unrefined hate.
YOU gave them the keys to that car. This is on you.
I don't give a shit about your shoes. I want to know what you're going to do to help disarm this horrible fucked up ideology you helped unleash upon society.
Meanwhile, I'm not interested in your complaints when people like me go to the root of the problem, and it happens to look like I'm attacking the same shit you believe, because you share the foundation of the ideology from which all that bile flows.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)This is exactly why any branch of supernatural belief that posits a greater than human transcendent authority is both a grave risk and a cover for extremism.
The problem is, even in the 0.000000000000000000000000000001% chance that there really is a god of some kind, and compound that probability by positing it cares what some hairless apes in a galactic backwater do, the fucking thing ain't saying shit about it, and is with incredible reckless and feckless aplomb apparently relying on internally contradictory, syncretic, jumbled mishmashes of Bronze Age through Medieval foundation myths, cultural aphorisms and social commentary interpreted through a couple of millennia of Chinese whispers to communicate what it wants. If there isn't one? The widespread belief to the contrary makes that moot.
So what we have is a situation where anybody, from the few who have a genuine altruistic intent through the many hucksters to the few (but not few enough sadly) sociopathic monsters, gets an equal shot at persuading people that their version of the Chinese whisper is the true and perfect version of what a perfect and loving, but silent and unverifiable, deity wants from us. And since when were genuine altruists more charismatic and persuasive than hucksters and sociopaths? There's a reason Schweitzer managed a hospital and Hitler an empire.
And by even accepting that a silent and unverifiable god CAN genuinely say something, anything at all, about human morality or society, you perpetuate that ability of the hucksters and the sociopaths to twist that belief to their own ends far more effectively than the altruists ever do. Don't you guys have sins of omission and commission? Can't you see the overwhelmingly negative impact of not saying en-2-billion-strong-masse "wait a minute, how exactly do we know God wants X, or is even there to want X in the first place? Let's prove that before we enact so-and-so's opinion on the matter into law or integrate it into social norms".
A silent supernatural overlord can, and does, say anything to anybody, without proof. The only way to stop him saying "kill all Jews/gays/nonbelievers" is to stop him saying anything at all until everyone can hear it directly.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I've done the devil's advocate thing (pardon the pun) and I cannot find a valid 'defense' for it. As long as any religion cannot be proven, I cannot find a valid defense that rejects the crazy extremists, while accepting the unprovable doctrines of any particular god, or interpretation of that god.
Accept one, leave the door open for the others. Unless and until any one of them can be proven to be real.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Are they patently absurd?
If so, then they should be mocked. Believing in absurd, anti-reality supernatural nonsense is detestable.
But maybe yiur beliefs don't fit that category.
What ARE your beliefs?
Oneironaut
(5,486 posts)Everything should be subject to scrutiny in a society that takes science seriously. That includes religion.
Can religion be tested and proven under controlled conditions? If not, then it is an irrational belief. Worse yet is when people try to force those irrational beliefs on others.
I don't hate Christianity. You can believe whatever you want. I just put your beliefs in the same league as fairies and mythical monsters - there is no evidence that any of these ever existed. The same is true of Islam, and every other religion that believes in magic.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)from all criticism as if it was not just politics. Let me tell you how it works: if a person wants to keep something sacred or sanctified, they keep it close and they do not make use of it as a political device. When anyone uses anything as a political device, I am free to and will respond politically. Keep your religion separate, sanctified and I have no issue with it or with you. The moment you use it as a hammer, I will treat it as a hammer.
Right wing religion that opposes the rights of others is not good, it's not religion it's just fascism in vestments.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)We are bashing Christianity (the entire religion) because it won't allow women to choose to have an abortion.
But then it's racist to attack Islam when they force women to wear burqas.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)If you think criticism of oppressive aspects of cultural religious practices is 'bashing the entire Christian religion' you must have an extremely low opinion of the Christian religion. Example, not all Christians are anti-choice, yet you claim that they are. Not all Christians are anti gay, but you seem to think that criticism of Kevin Swanson for calling for death to gay people is 'bashing the entire religion'.
Anyone, with any faith, can keep it sacred or use it as a tool, once it is a tool it is not longer sacred and I will treat it like the tool that it is.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Christianity and Islam ought to be freely attacked and mocked for their huge shortcomings on both of those fronts. Sometimes it seems that there is a greater willingness to do so with respect to Christianity than other religions.
Also, there were assumptions made about this particular attacker before any evidence or facts were presented about his background and motives.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You accuse people of making assumptions recklessly.
Assumptions or reason applied to historical context? Have other clinics been attacked? Yes, many. By whom? Right wing Christians, that's who, each and every time. You affect that this history does not exist. That history does exist, lots of it. Bombings, shootings, harassment. The idea that you expect people to live that history, to defend those clinics and then to see such a crime and assume it is not the group that always does it is in my view expecting a absurdity.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Specifically that some folks here are responding to this terror attack in the same way that RW-ers/Fox News types respond to terror attacks presumably committed by Muslims.
Such as making assumptions about the attacker and his motives without all the facts being in, being broadly critical of the followers of the religion, that sort of thing.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)hasn't happened.
I'm most disturbed by the religious rhetoric that fuels these attacks. To each his own.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Sorry I'm not sure what you are saying in this post.
My observations definitely are based on things that have happened. Namely specific posts that I have read here regarding this attack (others have responded to the OP agreeing that they have observed the same things).
The point I am making in response to your comment is that this particular discussion about these observations is not meant to diminish from the actual tragedy of what took place and the very serious issues facing Planned Parenthood and its supporters.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)"What disturbs me the most is the seemingly visceral seething hatred against religious Christians that emanate from several of the posts that I have read... blah, blah, blah..." -oberliner
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I responded that I had worded that poorly and that I would tone that characterization down.
I hope that you can take the comments I have made in response to your responses into consideration as well.
Upon further reflection, I realized that some of what I wrote may have given the wrong impression which is why I attempted to clarify in response to your very reasonable points.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Then you acted all sanctimonious about it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I regret that I gave out that impression in my post. I have been following this attack since it unfolded and I am very depressed about the fact that lives have been lost in the shooting. Without question, that is what is most important here.
The OP was just meant as an observation of something I noticed with respect to some posts I read which seemed to be attacking Christians in a way that seemed a bit similar to how RW-ers attacked Muslims in the wake of other terrorist attacks.
I did not mean to be sanctimonious and am quite open to the fact that I could be completely off-base on my observations. That's why I shared it and looked for feedback from fellow DU-ers.
Also, where are the rows and rows of Xtain bashing threads I keep hearing all about? In GD? LBN? Dammed if I can find them.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)is that people who will call me friend here because I am a liberal would make a distinction between rw hate religion and liberal Christianity. I belong to a very liberal church. I have been a liberal since I was a child - came from a liberal family and am raising a liberal family.
I will NOT apologize for being a Christian. Nor do I expect you to apologize for your personal beliefs.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Jesus, if I might drag him into it, told his followers to rejoice when persecuted or mocked for his sake. But they do not rejoice, what they do is whine that their reputations are harmed by their own dang faith mates.
Jesus also said to be very slow to take offense and very quick to offer apology.
When Westboro was a new thing, I went to many 'liberal ministers' and urged them to counter their hateful pickets. They would not do so. They would say they did not like their methods but the Scriptures do oppose homosexuality, so they could not really oppose Westboro too strongly. As a result Westboro Baptist conducted hundreds of attacks on LGBT funerals unhindered by 'liberal Christians', they did so for years and in all 50 States.
And that's the problem, letting those hateful teachings and actions gain legitimacy and boldness, it should be YOUR community most outraged at this misuse of your faith. But all you care about is your own reputations. And Jesus advised against that.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)them - my church does. We have active gay members. But we have no ties whatsoever to them. They Westboro does not think anything more about what we say than they do what you say.
The Pope, the leader of one of the biggest Christian churches in the world spoke out against them on other issues - did you see any change in the actions of the rw? No you did not. What good would it do for my little church to stand on the corner and denounce them? The Westboro church is independent and does not listen to anyone. There is no connection just because we read the same book.
Just a little history: Westboro is a baptist church and their preachers make up their own religious ideas. Each can make his own. No one at the top can change that. I don't think that even a coalition of Baptist churches could change them.
If they were protesting in my community as a member of my church the most I could do is join the counter protest. And I am sure many do.
As to whining I was not nor will I. I was pointing out that we had already discussed this issue long ago on DU. You may think anything of me you want in return I will respect your right to do so.
BTW if you will bother to look I have supported the issue you work with from the beginning and will continue to do so. It effects my family and several friends.
bhikkhu
(10,712 posts)I don't see it as anti-christian to criticize those elements of christianity that would "keep women in their place", ostracize people based on who they love, advocate crusader-style war, and so forth. Evolution comes from within, and I think we have done a passably good job in this country over the past few decades, in many parts of the country. There's always push-back.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Before any facts or evidence came in about his motives and background. Don't you think that was a bit unfair?
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)Dear's background story would have been wise, I agree.
I am searching around on the web and can't find a damn thing about him, really. A few traffic violations and such, but nothing that identifies a personal philosophy or motive.
It does seem odd that we aren't getting a media flood on this guy.
bhikkhu
(10,712 posts)but I would assume he was violently pro-life. Which is to say, a very disturbed asshole, of the sort pseudo-christian fundies tend to encourage. Perhaps that is a bit unfair, but that's what comes to mind as likely.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)We can survive a few posts on DU.
Remember that Christisnity is the majority religion in this nation so people have more experience with the religion., so they sre more comfortable criticizing it than other religions.
Islam and Christianity have problems with their fanatical wings of their religions. Time to address it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Again, I do not think Christianity is in danger of not surviving a few posts on DU. It was just an observation that I made and thought I would share it to see if others felt the same way. This is a discussion board, after all. I find it interesting to see people's different perspectives on this subject.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)I see a crapload more whining about atheists using phrases that hurt your widdle fee-fees here than any real action against your faith-mates. I see more no-true-scotsman nonsense pretending that the loathsome bigots and insane theocrats ruining this country aren't "real" Christians than either.
If you are going to take a stand against "them", start by admitting who "they" are and why "they" act the way "they" do.
Hint: it's "Christians" and "Christianity". I'm sure the poor persecuted DU Xians mostly are nice folks, and at least believe their beliefs play some part in making them so (although they seem densely incapable of realizing that this very construct necessitates insulting nonbelievers). But damn not a goddamn one of them is willing to admit that their shared faith motivates Christian terrorists, homophobes, misogynists and bigots to act in their ghastly evil ways.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)So much for the braggadocio of your final sentence.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Second if you wanted me to take you seriously you should have taken me seriously.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)instead of whining about how mean nonbelievers are in the only venue where most of us can even speak up without physical reprisal from Christians.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I just don't take you seriously. If you want to kknow why just look at your language when you first addressed me.
And I don't think atheists are mean. I never said atheists are mean.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)Pretending that they really abhor Christian fundamentalism while doing damn all to stand against it. Couldn't give a toss how seriously you take me (what does that mean exactly?). Your brothers in faith are doing everything in their power to marginalize and revile and demean those like me and if I expected any American Christians to be allies I would be so damn naive as to deserve not being "taken seriously" by far more credible people.
I have many faults. Such craven naivete is not one of them.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I have experienced homophobia my whole life and know how rw Christians can be.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Good to see your still around.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts) procon
(15,805 posts)You're making a Foxian assertion that everyone who mocks the hypocrisy and criticizes bigoted and intolerant Christian terrorists must therefore be anti-Christian toward all other Christians as well. That a very large leap. Your argument is further weakened by the long trail of past murders at abortion clinics by Christian fundamentalists, and while there is always a possibility that perhaps this time, out of the dozens of other incidents, there might be a different cause, the odds are not in your favor.
There is little distinction between self-righteous, misinformed Christian and Muslim fundamentalists who engage in terrorism in the name of their religion. These people have bastardized the religions they claim to worship and made it unrecognizable to the majority of believers and they are justifiably condemned of civilized people everywhere, both religious and not.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Though I am not sure that I made the assertion that you are claiming I made - I certainly didn't mean to do so. I meant to suggest that the response to this shooting is interestingly different from the response to shootings committed by Islamic terrorists.
Some of the sorts of things one finds on RW sources in such attacks (like jumping to conclusions about the motives/background of the attacker before the facts are in) seem to be happening here in this case.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)out of politics, I will stop the vibe!
RKP5637
(67,086 posts)it's not good enough to stand on its own, so they have to try to force it onto others via politics.
randome
(34,845 posts)When you define yourself as part of a group, you are, by definition, defining everyone else as something less.
The only thing we should trumpet about ourselves is that we are all human. Anything else is divisive.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)In our present modernity we live our lives within the hierarchies of groups. Depending on the nature of the problems we face we orient our sense of inclusion to different levels of that hierarchy. It may be very loose...we sit mostly alone only going out to buy things at particular stores, and or have them brought to us by different delivery services, or it may be more formal... as in members of Amish communities, Masons, Knights of Columbus, or just floating signifiers...feminists, socialists, liberals,
We strongly desire the groups we belong to and trust in to be perceived as good.
When bad things happen we want them walled off from inclusion in our group, and it's not sufficient to have one of us just put in a cage.
We want them and all shadows of their personalities caste out from our group. We need and therefore want the goodness of our in-group loyalties and rules to be re-inscribed.
We can't tolerate those who upset the group. Tolerance allows acceptance, but we can't accept "them". Indeed we must not tolerate "them". So we disparage 'them' and organize vitriol against 'them'.
If a DUer wants to see how this works, all they have to do is go back in old posts to spring and follow GD-P and the candidate forums forward as the commentaries about the evil others are developed about 'them'.
randome
(34,845 posts)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)non-crazy Christians when real, real, real crazy Christians claim the same title.
I'm glad it's not a problem I have to worry about administratively. But a re-labeling might be a handy strategy.
If Franklin Graham can shoot his bigoted mouth off about Muslims and claim moral grounds for doing so as a Christian, then Christianity has a problem, unless they want to embrace Graham's bigotry.
Over here in the secular playground, I'm going to call Graham a bigot any time I want to. I think there's significant evidence to support the claim.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)He may be a bad Christian, but he IS a Christian. Pretending he is something else is dishonest.
saltpoint
(50,986 posts)I never said he was not a Christian. I argue that he is an Islamaphobic bigot.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Abortion clinic bombers and doctor killers claim to be pro-life.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Liberal Christians made the massive mistake of believing that quietly going about their business was the best response to fundamentalist Christians.
That left fundamentalists as the only Christians with a microphone.
When you ceded the public face of your religion to them, you actually ceded the public face of your religion to them. Wanna fix it? Start getting just as loud.
get the red out
(13,460 posts)I just hate terrorists, period. I do see your point though.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Saying that is no more of a leap than saying a suicide bomber in the Middle East was obviously a Muslim fanatic.
But I agree that there's a double standard with many on the left, who are willing to recognize religion as the motivating factor when the odd Christian terrorist pops up, but cry 'bigotry' (or even more laughably, 'racism') when others ascribe religion as the motivating factor for Muslim terrorists.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)There still has not been any information released regarding motives or background of the shooter.
I do agree with your second paragraph, certainly.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Major Nikon
(36,818 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)oppressed group.
Christians are the majority in this country, and very definitely hold the majority of power. Your group's power will not be influenced by people hurting your feelings on an internet board.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Islam is the world's second largest religion. It has nearly 2 billion followers. In many countries they are the majority. Most Muslims who are "oppressed" are being oppressed by leaders of their own religion and their own governments, not by Christians.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Christians can certainly be oppressed elsewhere, and they are. But not here.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)However, there is no reason to make assumptions regarding the motives and background of the shooter before any facts are in.
Also, I think that even though Christianity is the most popular religion in the USA, I think that all religions ought to be subject to the same sort of scrutiny and criticism, even those which are only followed by a minority of the population.
That being said, there is certainly a great deal of privilege associated with being a white Christian in the United States so there is certainly less concern about them being unfairly targeted in a way that would be very different for non-whites and non-Christians.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)What other reason would he have for shooting people in a Planned Parenthood? It isn't rocket science.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)However, the motive has not yet been made public. There are other (less likely) possibilities at this point.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)So the environment is one that lead them to take precautions, and those precautions were taken for very specific reasons.
Have you yourself ever even seen a safe room? Is there one at your workplace or home?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I have no doubt that the employes of Planned Parenthood and all those who use its services face great risk just by being in that building of an attack like this happening. That, in and of itself, is a major problem that ought to be addressed.
Having said that, it is conceivable that this guy had some other reason for why he did what he did where did. For instance, a personal grievance with someone who works there. Though, again, I concede that this is unlikely and the most likely scenario is the one that people are assuming to be true.
I just think it is prudent to wait a day or two to get all of the facts before jumping to those conclusions with apparent certainty.
Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)That's a morality that is for sale, which means it's not morality.
People today don't have the thinking skills to make a straight-forward honest judgment if their life depended on it... whether it's what jeans to buy, or who to elect president, or what's right vs. wrong.
Unacceptable behavior doesn't become acceptable because the person doing it is part of a minority group, or because the target of the unacceptable behavior is from majority group. That's a total load of bullshit.
And what's true is no less true even if NO ONE knows it or agrees with it.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, threads like this are not a very effective way to combat it.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Thought it would be worth discussing at least. There have been some very thoughtful replies, in fact, that have given me a lot to consider on this topic.
hatrack
(59,578 posts)Just in case you hadn't been paying attention.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I don't think that is really related to these observations.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts) oberliner
(58,724 posts)The real victims are the ones who were killed. That goes without saying.
And, again, my OP is not meant to shift focus, but rather just to share observations about some of what I noticed with response to this attack.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I didn't mean to offend you. If I have, I apologize.
The crime committed here was a horrible one - it was terrorism and there is a horrible strain of misogyny across the United States, especially among religious types. The most important thing is that women should feel safe in going to Planned Parenthood clinics and the rhetoric against them is disgusting and needs to be toned down.
The observations in the OP were not meant in any way to deter from those critical realities.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Response to oberliner (Reply #80)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)between muslims and radical islamic extremists. but there are christians and radical christian extremists, like this guy is likely to be. i am waiting for anyone in the press to refer to him as a radical christian extremist.
why are they only religious extremists when the religion is islam?
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)marks on their clothes... oh wait, that is not happening. (Now if you are Muslim, that is actually happening, from a major party and not just one candidate to the Presidency)
This line of victimhood is quite well... annoying coming from a member of the majority culture. And if you feel there is one, it is against fanatics. Free clue, I have a problem with fanatics, I don't care what day of the week they happen to pray at.
See, I am pretty equal opportunity in that sense.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I agree with your comments about fanatics of any and all stripes.
There have been posts like the one you mention though.
For instance:
. "We need a data base
on these people and a look into these churches that radicalizes these extremist. At least put them on the "no-fly" list so they can not buy guns."
That post (and others like it) were most likely meant satirically, but who knows.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)that is the point.
As to radicalizing these extremists, guess what? The NO FLY list works that way in theory. If the FBI believes you are a danger to others due to your muslim, christian, animal rights terrorism, they are supposed to add you to the list.
Whether it is used that way it is something to ask, but given Senator Ted Kennedy was put on it at one point...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I am just saying that I observed some of the same sorts of rhetoric with respect to Christians in the wake of this attack that one sees on RW/Fox News type sources with respect to Muslims in the wake of other attacks.
But you are right to point out that comments from DUers are much less serious than those of candidates for POTUS and other government positions.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I think some folks here mean it, some folks are making a point about those lists by going there. The trick if you want to play that game, is to separate them.
I personally do not pay attention to that noise becuase it adds to the faux christian persecution phenomena we see on the FAR RIGHT. There are people who are trying hard to actually run with that and incidentally take away the rights of others.
What I do see though at a national level, (and also international) is the rise of fanatical believes of multiple religions as a reaction to the many crisis we are having, such as climate change and the fact that science is so hard to understand any longer.
There is also a reaction, hard core, like we have not seen since the 19th century, to secularism.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think people should feel free to criticize the ideological underpinnings of any and all religions without fear of causing offense.
Christianity and Islam, being the two most popular worldwide religions, ought to be held to particularly high scrutiny.
There is a double standard, sometimes, coming from all corners with respect to the way some religions are criticized as opposed to others.
Mariana
(14,854 posts)Then you wouldn't have to guess.
Perhaps you prefer not to know.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I will do so now and in the future.
jonno99
(2,620 posts)staging something outrageous and then pinning the blame on some other group. The aim always seems to be to generate hatred and polarization - an absolutely deplorable thing to do.
I can't provide a specific link(s) but I have seen DU members make such false flag claims when the injured party is/was/were Christians. And judging by the responses this is generally considered acceptable behavior from the DU community at large.
Of course there is nothing wrong with questioning the authenticity of any claim - especially if it has not been corroborated or verified. One thing I sincerely hate though are lies perpetrated for the purpose of dividing people - and yes I know that so-called "Christians" are responsible for many of these events.
I learned yesterday however, that apparently you can't question (seemingly unverified) claims by non-Christians:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141273000
dawg
(10,621 posts)And someone will probably be along shortly to mock me for daring to even acknowledge it.
840high
(17,196 posts)
hibbing
(10,094 posts)I've read through all the responses and most seem rather thoughtful.
Peace
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I very much appreciate the discussion and responses posted to this thread. Lots to think about.
whathehell
(29,034 posts)
patsimp
(915 posts)easiest way to get a post hidden is to question anything
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)and I don't apologize for it. sorry.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)
mike_c
(36,269 posts)I wish everyone would either grow out of their invisible friends, or at least keep them at home where the rest of us aren't bothered. Muslims, Christians, Hindus, whatever. All their delusions suck pretty much equally.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)rather than an atheist, I believe that you are taking the contempt many people feel for Christian hypocrites as contempt for Christians in general.
We have a few obnoxious Bible unthumpers, but I don't sense a general vibe.
Ishoutandscream2
(6,660 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)People will bend over backwards to defend some of the abhorrent practices of non christian religions and then turn around and tell every single christian to go fuck themselves.
It is pathetic but it's the internet, it kind of sucks.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)and I've noticed a low-tolerance for using Christianity as a way to excuse bad behavior. I have nothing against those that believe but when those that believe try and make me conform in some way based on their beliefs, that's when I get bothered. That said, I'd never tell a single Christian to go fuck themselves and I will also concede that anyone that practices any radical version of their religion is abhorrent. That includes Muslims and Christians but that doesn't make every Muslim or Christian a violent, sadistic asshole... only some of them.
840high
(17,196 posts)workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Yes there is a anti christian/anti God vibe around here but people are free to believe what they want. No US sharia law yet although fox news, hate radio and the republican party are working 24/7 to bring that about.
I am a Christian and I condemn what passes for Christianity in this country all the time. Republican-Randian money worshiping cults have taken over many if not most churches in america it looks like to me.
Christians used to be in the forefront of social justice issues. Now its a totally reactionary force that hates the poor, the sick, the outcast and the prisoner.
The right wing has pretty much 100 percent infiltrated the Christian church in America and destroyed it. It looks nothing like Jesus anymore. SMH
Mariana
(14,854 posts)into an ugly thing as a whole, that is true. However, it is still Christianity. They read the Bible and they believe they are doing what Jesus wants them to do.
There are, of course, many fine Christians. They get noticed, too - my local paper has a rather large "Religion" section in the Sunday edition, which is chock full of wonderful things that various religious people and groups in the area are doing.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Same as the other religions/mythologies based on supernatural lunacy.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)
They all support the right wing ideologies that we despise here.
Obviously I am only speaking from my personal experiences but that is truly what I have to base my choices on, everything else is just propaganda.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Have you met any good Muslims or Jews? Or followers of any other religion?
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)In that since the sheriff's duties included doing the hangings "What a pity it is that Christians should have to be hung by a Jew"
Noah's response was "What a pity it is that Christians should have to be hung"
After all, if they had truly ACTED like followers of Christ, they wouldn't have done anything like that.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)Welcome to the Internet and DU. Most people are not moved to speak until you say something they disagree with.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)that makes me angry. I don't hate Christians or Christianity, and I don't hate Muslims or Islam, but terrorists from either religion should be treated the same by our media, which is not the case. That may be why some people overcompensate when expressing their anger.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And I do certainly take that point.
Terrorists from either religion should be treated the same by our media but also by DU-ers, in my opinion, though I do understand the anger at the hypocrisy.
branford
(4,462 posts)I abhor generalizations, stereotypes, and assumptions about Muslims as much as I do about Christians (I'm neither; I'm Jewish). Neither is acceptable.
However, I've repeatedly noticed that some here (as well as elected leaders of our Party) have no problem doing so with Christians, while vehemently complaining when the topic concerns Muslims. The hypocrisy is sometimes overwhelming, quite disappointing, and a betrayal of liberal values. I generally believe it's related to the fact that (conservative) Christians are often Republicans, and Muslims part of non-White minority groups within our Party, and thus certain bigotry is considered acceptable under the guise of political partisanship. For instance, it's likely the reason why broad anti-Christian comments and generalization are considered acceptable, even encouraged, after the Planned Parenthood shooting, both here and widely in the media, but the Fort Hood shooting is still considered "workplace violence," and the president and Democratic presidential contenders will not even utter the words ""radical Islamic terrorism."
AngryOldDem
(14,061 posts)Just as people are screaming for moderate Muslims to stand up against the radicals, the same needs to be done with Christianity.
Sorry that you sense an anti-Christian vibe here -- but it isn't just DU. A lot of people who claim to be followers of Christ seem to have a lot of trouble following what He taught, or they interpret what He taught in some mighty strange ways. So, yes, that may just rub some people the wrong way.
Right now I won't speculate what religion this nutjob in Colorado follows. But the precedent is certainly there for a lot of people to make some reasonable assumptions, wouldn't you agree?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think we should strengthen and support the voices of moderation among all religions, especially the two biggest ones.
I do think one can make reasonable assumptions with respect to the PP shooting, but some people seem to speaking with absolute certainty on that topic.
Also, I think that DU in generally is harsher on Christians than on Muslims (just like (and perhaps because) the RW media people are harsher on Muslims than Christians).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Not until your god steps up and takes ownership of this shit. As long as you yourselves can't prove that your god exists, let alone he exists and wants you to live a certain way, all you are doing is giving the extremists cover to hide behind. That's all you CAN do.
Its so fascinating to me, that your supposedly omnipotent god could be so horribly misunderstood. It's just amazing. It's almost like it isn't omnipotent at all. After all, if an entity is actually omnipotent, and it wants us to know him/her/it, it can hardly fail to make itself and it's message known, right?
It wouldn't BE omnipotent otherwise, right?
So how can it be these right wing extremists manage to so terribly misunderstand your god?
Quit building them a platform, quit giving them cover, quit lending them aid by assuming the first part of their equation is correct. Stop pretending their imaginary friend is real, if misunderstood, just so you can feel better claiming your imaginary friend is real too.
This shit is getting people KILLED.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)So much violence around the world is a result of people's religious beliefs.
My view is that people can believe whatever they want as long as they do not try to impose any aspect of those views on others.
I do think it is unfortunate (to put it mildly) that the foundational texts of the world's major religions are so violent, misogynistic, and homophobic (among other things).
That's why I think it would behoove the more moderate followers of religion to try to guide people away from fundamentalism, if at all possible.
Sadly, it might not be.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)Mariana
(14,854 posts)to simply pretend the radicals aren't really Christians. Then they don't have to be bothered with it.
Every single thing Christ supposedly said is open to interpretation. I'll give one example: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Well, he didn't define "neighbor" did he? If a Christian wants to hate someone, all he has to do is decide that person doesn't count as his neighbor.
PufPuf23
(8,755 posts)That said, personally hatred in general I find unproductive and uncomfortable to hear.
We should tax churches. Churches should stay out of politics regardless.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)It's always been here. There's a strong subset of posters who think that being anti-religious, particularly anti-Christian, magically makes them smarter. They don't ever seem to realize that religion and intelligence have co-existed quite comfortably throughout recorded history. Neither religion nor irreligion have a monopoly on intelligence.
pnwmom
(108,955 posts)lump Muslims together.
And shouldn't.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Just like the term "muslim" the word "christian" can mean many types of people. It cam mean people like Jesse Jackson who are clear advocates for the rights of all, including Gays, women, Black and Brown people, as well as attacking the ways our current Capitalist mode is not very christian at all. In can mean folks in the middle, like Pope Francisco, who can attack capitalism, but still stand in the way of gay rights, women's rights, and who do not expect the church to have to listen. The, the far right, who are exactly the sort of Elmer Gantries we hate here, and should not have to feel any apology for hating here.
However, the fact is, when people from the Pope Francis on down get in the way of the right wing getting their just due, they wind up aiding and abbeting, and the idea they are doing this is religion's namer is what is annoying. You have every right to your ideas, but when you see one of us being attacked, we expect you, as a left winger, to say STOP! to the people that will look at you and say "you should be with us."
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)not draw conclusions.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027387350
I also agree that too often here there is outspoken nastiness against a religion, Christianity. People find different ways, and no need to be nasty. Attack actions, limit actions, but if someone finds peace and meaning in a belief? Let them be.
It is bothersome, and helps perpetuate that poisonous environment.
Rex
(65,616 posts)They even pretend there are rows and rows of threads in GD hating on Xtians. It is the most pathetic tactic I've seen on DU in a long time.
Hating on people ought not to be something we do here on DU.
Rex
(65,616 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I look forward to the end of the primary season when we can all be united in our efforts to defeat the Republican candidate and elect a Democratic president.
Rex
(65,616 posts)IMO.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And I imagine it will only get uglier as we move through the primary season, unfortunately.
Vinca
(50,237 posts)It's not directed at Christians anymore than anyone from any other religion. I try not to comment, but it boggles my mind what seemingly very intelligent people believe sometimes.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)islamic extremism I think it is only fair that we also demand that each christian explicitly denounce each act of christian extremism. Have you denounced the Colorado Springs attack?
When we stop treating all muslims as responsible for the actions of any muslim I will be fine with not treating all christians as responsible for the actions of any christian.
And yes this is satire, but it is serious satire. We have many people who call themselves Democrats joining in the call for overt discrimination against muslims because of the Paris attacks. I am appalled at that, even while I refuse to go off the other cliff of proclaiming that groups like ISIS are somehow not motivated by their religious beliefs. But I am even more appalled at the staggering hypocrisy of our almost complete societal refusal to address the fact that we have our own religious extremists here in the good old USA, and they are overwhelmingly christian, not muslim.
Rex
(65,616 posts)They are overwhelmingly fundamentalist, armed to the teeth, men and white.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That is kind of my point. DU-ers don't generally make calls for all Muslims to explicit denounce each act of Islamic extremism. That is something one finds on Fox News and other places of that ilk.
I get that, for the most part, much of the response along that vein is meant satirically, but I think there is also a way that some folks here talk about Christians that is harsher than what would be directed towards believers of other faiths. Maybe that is reasonable since Christians are the minority, but it just has a similar vibe to what one sees on the right with regard to Muslims.
I would also again point out that it is not yet clear what the motives and background of the PP shooter were, and it seems like many are quick to jump to conclusions in the same way that the RW does when an attack is committed by a Muslim.
Those are just my observations - I get where folks are coming from, and I may be off base - that's why I shared by thoughts and am trying to thoughtfully respond to those who post in this thread.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Here you go, enjoy.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I should not have generalized DU-ers in that way.
guillaumeb
(42,641 posts)But having created this post, and before I read the replies, I predict:
1) There will be a certain number of posters who will accuse you of painting Christians as victims,
2) There will be a certain number who blame Christianity itself for the evil,
3) There will be a certain number who will blame the concept of religion for the evil,
4) (this space open)
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)proclaim their xtianity are absolutely vile, reactionary, fascistic, cruel, bigoted, xenophobic, homophobic, woman-hating, anti-science/reason/logic, tiny-minded control-freak ASSHOLES of the worst kind imaginable.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or do you find that to be true of Christians in particular?
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)regardless of denomination, with an equal intensity.
The problem in this country is xtians so it is them on which I focus most of the time.
Steven Weinberg speaks for me:
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)In the US it is indeed Christians who are most like this. Muslims in the US know they are only one misplaced sectarian extremist statement from either death by vigilante or at best serious and likely permanent unwanted attention from the DHS. I'm sure there are plenty of radical loony Muslims who would dearly love to shout about nonbelievers and lakes of fire in the afterlife after persecution in this one, but self-preservation stops them from doing it here. Radical loony Christians do it on billboards and cable channels non-stop, protected by the supermajority of (supposedly) more sane Christians who never speak up against them, instead saving their ire for atheists who are mean to them online. Radical loony Jews? Likely true too, but there it is at least in the vast majority of Jewish community groups in the US a religious and group norm to keep every opinion to themselves, not just that one. About as objectionable as they get in the general public seems to be whining about airline seat assignments and not going along with secular greeting norms. Sure they likely hate me too, but they do damn all to publicize that. Christians on the other hand seem to live for how much they hate nonbelievers, gays, choice, etc (oh sorry, they really love us but think it is both true and right that a perfect loving omnipotent deity wants to fry us for trillions of aeons just for being the souls he supposedly made himself. What does their hate look like then?). You guys can (and do) preen all you want about St so-and-so's soup kitchen (no matter how many secular volunteers also show up) and whatever wishy washy pseudo-nice sheen Spong or Robinson tries to mealy-mouth on to a veneer over the hate of the religion, but you do absolutely fuck all to stop the vastly better funded, better organized, more widely supported hateful bigotry of those who speak for Christianity in the US.
I've never been assaulted physically by a Muslim or Jew because I was an atheist and one of the few who doesn't hide it all the time. Three Christian attacks so far. Two death threats, three vandalism incidents. How many have you had from atheists just for being a believer? Since we are just as bad and all that...
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... and speak collectively that we all of different faiths, whether we are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, agnostic, atheist or other beliefs, that those who commit acts of terror from warped interpretation of religious texts or other warped reasoning should NOT be allowed to ascribe their beliefs on peaceful followers of those belief systems so that we can avoid future religious wars and reward those that do good things with their belief systems. You attack one religion generally you are attacking them all and dooming us all to global conflict.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)As there rightly should be.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or do you think it is applied differently to different faiths?
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)But we just have so many delusional thinkers, and most of them feel that their delusional beliefs should be respected.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or do you think, perhaps because Christians are privileged in the USA, that there is a difference in the way the two religions are discussed?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)please don't spoil it. Oh damn, its already spoilt.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I was just making an observation regarding the way some DUers have responded to the PP attack, such as making assumptions about the shooter without evidence and drawing broad conclusions based on those assumptions. It seemed similar to the sort of thing the RW does with respect to shooters that may potentially be Muslims.
Bucky
(53,947 posts)But let's be honest, the terrorism and the social control they both strive for doesn't help their case.
ileus
(15,396 posts)Just like gun owners, it's hard for folks here to accept Christians can be democrats. It's what we do, it's who we are...
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Someone call the fucking whaaaaaaaaambulance.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)That isn't really particularly german to the observations I was making in my post.
Namely that people are making assumptions about the shooter being Christian with no actual evidence, and then proceeding to respond accordingly under that assumption.
It just seemed like the sort of thing RW-ers do when a presumed Muslim commits an action like this, and I don't think DU-ers ought to fall into that same trap.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)
I know it's a typo, but I'm a compulsive smartass and sometimes I simply can't help myself.
To the point:
Is it fair to jump to conclusions? In my opinion it is not, but I would also argue that it is a stretch to say that these assumptions betray some kind of anti-Christian bias on Democratic Underground. When every single one of the most popular Christian sects in the country equate abortion to murder, it doesn't take an enormous leap to conclude a killer of abortion providers may have been motivated by his religion, especially when one considers that this has happened before.
Where privilege is concerned: and the end of the day, Christians are not likely to be affected by the outcome of this tragedy no matter the killer's motivations. If it does turn out he murdered people as an act of Christian piety, I sincerely doubt he will be labeled a "Christian terrorist", or that Christians in any part of the country will suffer a second's blowback for his bad behavior. In this regard, the plight of DU's Christian community is wholly incomparable to that of Muslims, who almost always suffer some kind of collective guilt for what others do in the name of their religion.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)I would say however that an American with a white background saying something that might sound anti-white is not the moral equivalency of a white American making racist anti-black statements. Because white Americans are not a persecuted minority in America. Just as Christians are not a persecuted minority in America. Muslims in America are in danger of becoming that if they are not already. African Americans are and have been for a long time.
Still there is nothing progressive about hostility toward Christians. It only alienates. On top of the wrongness of this reprehensible language whether directed against Christians, Muslims, Jews or whoever - it is politically STUPID. It is flat out IMPOSSIBLE to build a progressive majority in America without the support of a significant number of Christians.
Even one of the strongest Bernie Sanders supporters I know is an Evangelical Protestant. Should we who support the good Senator send a message to her that she is not welcome?
But politics aside, as my dear departed grandmother once said, "Never insult a person's family, country or religion. That is just plain rude."
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Religion feels no need to restrain itself from railing against non-believers. Religious expression can be spouted any place or time and usually nobody dare say anything for being considered "rude" or "intolerant." Yet the opposite is not true at all.
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)To paint the overwhelming majority of Americans as well people around the world with the same broad brush shows a total lack of critical thinking. Furthermore, it is political suicide.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Religious expression is almost never considered rude. Non-religious expression, for want of a better term, is often/always considered rude.
matt819
(10,749 posts)The vibe is opposition to any religion or sect whose followers take violent action against others in support of their religious beliefs.
Along similar lines, there is opposition to any religion or sect that is not tolerant of alternative religious beliefs or of non-religious beliefs.
And I would hope that as s Christian you would oppose religious beliefs that call God violence or that are not tolerant of others.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you feel that an attack of this nature by a presumed Christian is responded to in the same way that an attack of this nature by a presumed Muslim is? I would argue that the responses are not the same generally speaking on DU. There may be good reasons for the difference (such as the fact that Christians are the majority in the US and hold infinitely more power than Muslims here), but I don't think it's reasonable to say there is no difference in the reaction.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The opposition to those phony Christians is what you're feeling.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Heaven forbid that we should form a reasonable opinion about someone based upon their own self-selected code of conduct. Or how hypocritical their words & actions are in relation to it.
Act_of_Reparation
(9,116 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 29, 2015, 02:14 AM - Edit history (1)
If we assume you're presenting your motivations honestly (and I don't for a second think you are): I know you think your opinion is reasonable, but it isn't. Religions are more than the contents of their holy books, so much that defining them propositionally is an exercise in futility.
But that's not what you're trying to do. You're trying to define Christianity in such a manner that no one who disagrees your interpretation of the religion could be considered a genuine adherent, so at the end of the day Christianity is all gum drops and rainbows, completely devoid of judgmental zealots, ignorant assholes, and any unsavory types theretofore.
Nice try, but I'm not buying it. And, perhaps more importantly, neither are they. You say they're not real Christians, they say the people here aren't real Christians. You say they don't follow passages A, B, and C; they say Christians here don't follow passages X, Y, and Z.
Good luck reconciling that clusterfuck.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)My point is that we don't even know if the shooter is Christian or if his religion had anything to do with his actions, yet people seem to be jumping that conclusion and responding accordingly.
Had a Muslim committed this crime, wouldn't we be rightfully wanting to wait until there is evidence that religion played a part before jumping to that conclusion? It seems like that's what the RW-ers do, not us.
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)They only have ALL the money and the power. And they have to put up with the people they hate and demonize CRITICIZING them. What a shame.
Poor babies.
They try to make life hell for people in a same-sex relationship and whine when we criticize them.
It must be awful.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They are clearly the privileged group in the United States.
I was just making observations about DU and some of the recent posts in relation to the PP shooting.
6000eliot
(5,643 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts) Gore1FL
(21,100 posts)The others suck too!
tblue37
(65,227 posts){SNIP}
Hedges, who grew up in rural parishes in upstate New York where his father was a Presbyterian pastor, attacks the movement as someone steeped in the Bible and Christian tradition. He points to the hundreds of senators and members of Congress who have earned between 80 and 100 percent approval ratings from the three most influential Christian Right advocacy groups as one of many signs that the movement is burrowing deep inside the American government to subvert it.The movement's call to dismantle the wall between church and state and the intolerance it preaches against all who do not conform to its warped vision of a Christian America are pumped into tens of millions of American homes through Christian television and radio stations, as well as reinforced through the curriculum in Christian schools. The movement's yearning for apocalyptic violence and its assault on dispassionate, intellectual inquiry are laying the foundation for a new, frightening America {emphasis added}.
American Fascists, which includes interviews and coverage of events such as pro-life rallies and weeklong classes on conversion techniques, examines the movement's origins, its driving motivations and its dark ideological underpinnings. Hedges argues that the movement currently resembles the young fascist movements in Italy and Germany in the 1920s and '30s, movements that often masked the full extent of their drive for totalitarianism and were willing to make concessions until they achieved unrivaled power {emphasis added}. The Christian Right, like these early fascist movements, does not openly call for dictatorship, nor does it use physical violence to suppress opposition. In short, the movement is not yet revolutionary. But the ideological architecture of a Christian fascism is being cemented in place. The movement has roused its followers to a fever pitch of despair and fury. All it will take, Hedges writes, is one more national crisis on the order of September 11 for the Christian Right to make a concerted drive to destroy American democracy. The movement awaits a crisis. At that moment they will reveal themselves for what they truly are -- the American heirs to fascism. Hedges issues a potent, impassioned warning. We face an imminent threat. His book reminds us of the dangers liberal, democratic societies face when they tolerate the intolerant {emphasis added}.
THIS is what the "anti-Christian vibe" you refer to is all about. Just as the moderate Muslims are admonished to rein in their extremist co-religionists, so too must moderate Christians step up to counter the propaganda and influence of the fascistic Christian right, because those fascists really are burrowing deep into the seats of power in our government--at ALL levels--and if we cannot block their power moves soon, we will lose what little remains of our civil liberties. Instead, too many moderate Christians simply complain of "an anti-Christian vibe" when they encounter sharp criticism of extreme RW Christian ideology and behavior on sites like DU.
It smacks of #notallwhites and #notallmen. If you are not a RW fundamentalist who preaches hatred and fascism, then we are not talking about you.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Or if his religion had anything to do with his actions.
People are jumping to that conclusion in a way that (to my mind) resembles how the RW jumps to the conclusion that a similar action committed by someone with an Arab name or appearance is automatically connected to Islam.
tblue37
(65,227 posts)attacks on women's health clinics like PP, and Colorado Springs is certainly Ground Zero for RW Christian fundamentalism, which is why such attacks lead people to rage against RW Christian extremism.
I would guess that someone, like Dear, who is obviously unstable, could easily be influenced by impassioned RW fundamentalist rhetoric, even if he is not much of a believer. He was steeped in anti-Obama RW rhetoric, and the same sources that provide such anti-Obama rhetoric also provide fundamentalist religious rhetoric against abortion and against other persons and activities that the RW hates.
His "no more baby parts" comment to the police after being taken into custody suggests that he was listening to those sources and being provoked to violence by them.
Also, there is this image of a makeshift cross of twigs on his shack in the woods in North Carolina:
That suggests that at some level and to some degree he did think of himself as a Christian.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Those are good points. I appreciate the post. Lots to think about.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)There are quite a few atheists around here, some of whom can be as, um, vocal as any fundie.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)on here, but yes, some of us do despise organized religion in general. Not necessarily the people who practice it, because I think there are some great religious people out there who really walk their talk (and the talk part is very minimal), but rather an antipathy toward the oppressive nature of Abrahamic religions on the least powerful members of society, among other things.
stopbush
(24,392 posts)So tired of the religionists and their bullshit beliefs that they try to foist on others.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It is human nature for us to be curious. The shooting of a PP clinic specifically makes one wonder about their motive. Why didn't the perpetrator go shoot up another clinic that has nothing to do with abortions or reproductive care.
I think one of the things that has to be stressed in times like these is that not ALL Christians are gun loving, shoot'em up type people. Those people are a small vocal minority.
Whether religion played a part, we'll have to see. There is also has been so much negative stuff said about PP (which is a load of crap) that could have caused someone to decide to take a situation into their own hands.
As we have seen in the past, the media has shown little interest in covering these stories for more than a day (if even that) before putting the it in the trashcan. It would be nice if the media actually grew a backbone showed more interest in covering these kinds of crimes.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Mainly thats because I use to be one of those religious folks and I understand the mindset of believing in that kind of stuff, even though I eventually came to the conclusion that its all a bunch of made up fairy tale type stuff. If a religious person is not harming others and/or being a total hypocrite , then they should not be ridiculed.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)It's time to grow up people and get real and drop the Middle Ages...
Seriously, I've had enough of having to "respect" religion...I don't at all anymore.
This crazy stuff has ruined my immediate family... my brother tagged along with his dysfunctional wife and they have RUINED
4 children...enabled them to be liars, smug....all because they are so PERFECT in their cultism.
DISGUSTING...it's like ABUSE
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I do not respect the beliefs themselves.
Gloria
(17,663 posts)"spiritual" myself....I meditate, look at the stars, am into dowsing and astrology and generally gleaning insight from all sorts of "languages"....
I just like to commune DIRECTLY....
To be brainwashed as children and turn out to be ignorant and cold as ice is not MY idea of religion...the organized religious stuff drives me wild...That said, there are "mainstream" churches which are quite open and loving and accepting and really trying to follow the wisdom of Jesus...who is one of many wise people who have been on earth...
It's the crazy, controlling outfits with the big mega-churches and the rather zombie-like followers who really don't know HOW to reflect on their own that really drive me nuts!!!
I often say that I really feel sorry for Jesus for what they have done to his name....
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)I just hate being told we must always "respect people's beliefs!" which is total bullshit. Then there are those who push the: "most people are religious so you can't say anything bad about religion ever because that's political suicide!" line. Yeeeeah, no.
So many people on DU think that religion should be in a protected bubble because it's "faith." For me, that's less reason to grant this lunacy respect. Show me a shred evidence for the existence of the supernatural and I would change my tune. Until then, it's the equivalent of demanding respect for belief in leprechauns riding unicorns.
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)there's a massive effort whenever a religious-based crime happens to silence any critique of the ideology behind the act- the "bigot!"s and "-phobe!"s and "hate!"s go on C/P and Scotsmen run rampant through the threads. Somehow, the ideology is never, ever at fault and must not be discussed.
It's a lot like the gun control debate- wide availability of guns is never, ever at fault and Cons'tution-hating, 'Murica-hatin' libruls need to shut up about it because librulz hatez freedum. Build a wall of buzzwords and maybe no one will look at the underlying problem.
Just my humble observation. YMMV.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you think there is any difference in the response on DU when attacks are committed by Christians vs. non-Christians?
LadyHawkAZ
(6,199 posts)Mostly the people critical of religion stay critical, and the apologists do their thing no matter the ideology.
*caveat: I don't follow DU as closely as I used to, so again YMMV
Change has come
(2,372 posts)
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)the Library of Alexandria and the murder of Hypatia. By xtians who thought knowledge and science were works of the devil. Teh stoopid has a long and depressing history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia
Response to Facility Inspector (Reply #274)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
MineralMan
(146,255 posts)There are thousands of denominations and sects of the Christian religion. For most of us, most of the people we encounter consider themselves to be Christians of one sort or another. There is no general "anti-Christian" vibe on DU or in society in general. There is a justifiable prejudice against fundamentalist Christians, though. But, they make up only a minority of Christians. I'm not a fan of fundamentalists of any religion. Not one bit.
As an atheist for over 50 years, I look at Christianity as I do all other religions. I think it's fine if people hold some religious belief. If they are able to do that, then I'm OK with that. For me, it is only an issue if people actively use their beliefs to keep people who don't share those beliefs down or to persecute such people.
Beyond that, I am never concerned about religious beliefs. I don't have them, but I don't mind if others do. It is behavior that I care about. It is behavior I judge. Not a belief system. I don't really give a damn what anyone but myself believes, as long as they don't insist that I or others believe the same thing. I don't care what rules religious people follow, unless they expect me to follow them, too.
No harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned. I'm anti-religion in cases where religious belief harms others. That's it.
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)I am a Christian, and I completely respect your position.
Unfortunately there is the ~0.05% of religious folks and atheists who get militant and their "splatter zone" is quite wide.
Kilgore
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)And no. I don't feel the same way you do.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Can you elaborate on your perspective?
still_one
(92,061 posts)discriminates
wendylaroux
(2,925 posts)anti " crazy asshole" christian.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)themselves christians when they reflect not one bit of christ consciousness. however, admitedly, i also detest all organized religion.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Furthermore, the rightwing evangelical branches have made a determined effort over the last 40 years, to remake American politics and culture to their liking, often using violent and hateful rhetoric and actions. They're a legitimate target for progressive ire, and while we understand that there are progressive Christians and churches, Christianity in the US is largely aligned with conservatism.
As for Islam, the religion itself and its tenets get criticized around here all the time. When Muslims are defended on DU and other progressive circles, it's more along the lines of reminding people that most of them are just ordinary people that want to live peaceful and prosperous lives. They're a vulnerable minority that needs this sort of defense - Christians are not.
branford
(4,462 posts)Wow!
I don't believe you realize it, but you proved the point of the OP.
You explicitly justify generalizations and stereotypes about Christians, yet find it totally unacceptable against Muslims because they are largely minorities, all while ignoring the obvious fact that devout Muslims and Christians largely hold similar fundamental beliefs on matters of import to progressives, such as abortion, LGBT issues, womens' rights, separation of church and state, etc.
With all due respect, you appear to actually justify your hypocrisy with racism. It's disturbing coming from someone on DU who' purportedly a liberal Democrat.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)I never said that most Christians aren't ordinary people, and I don't believe that. And most Americans understand that they are, either because they themselves are Christian, or have a social circle that includes many Christians. As a result, when there are instances of Christian terrorism, there is little threat of reprisal outside of being insulted on the internet. When Islamic terrorism happens too close to home, random Muslims are attacked, mosques are vandalized and burned, and prominent politicians start talking about suppressing their worship, and making them carry "special" IDs. When I see people on DU defending Muslims, it's usually in the spirit of denouncing that sort of thing, rather than the religion itself.
Also, I don't see any generalizations or stereotypes in my post other than:
1) Christians are influential in US politics.
2) Many evangelical Christians churches and individuals are very conservative and politically active.
Neither statement seems very controversial or inflammatory to me, but YMMV.
Finally, if you're going to be throwing around unfounded accusations of racism, you might do well to remember than Christianity and Islam are religions, not races.
branford
(4,462 posts)and the racism observation generally concerned your comment about "vulnerable minority that needs this sort of defense," particularly considering that most Muslims are not white, and the racial elements in discussions about religion are prominent in the USA.
You also definitely sought to excuse, or at the very least empathize, with negative generalizations about evangelical Christians, who although we both probably disagree with on almost every important issue, are not as a group actually violent or criminal. As you state, "Christianity in the US is largely aligned with conservatism," and therefore "they're a legitimate target for progressive ire."
Of course, you (and I) are certainly free to disagree with the speech and beliefs of people we disagree with, including evangelical Christians (and theocratic Muslims), but the topic of the OP was whether we treat Christianity different from Islam in our comments. With respect to Muslims, unlike Christians, you and others make no effort to separate or differentiate radical and violent Muslims from other moderate and peaceful Muslims like you did with more "ordinary" Christians and evangelicals. I noted that these radical Muslims generally hold views far less progressive and more violent than virtually all evangelicals, and in many of their home countries and territories are certainly not disenfranchised or vulnerable minorities, although they often horribly persecute actual minorities including non-evangelical Christians, and seek to bring such theocratic beliefs to our shores.
The hypocrisy concerning discussion of terrorist and criminal activity when discussing Islam and Christianity is troubling. Both groups have small minorities who are violent, contemptible, and decidedly illiberal. However, when a Christian commits a terrible act, the sense of self-righteous and outright schadenfreude is often palpable on DU, with religious beliefs and motives a central component of the discussions, but when Muslims commit similar acts, such as the Fort Hood Massacre and the recent attacks in Paris, the President, Clinton, Sander, Democrats in Congress, and many here cannot even utter the words "radical Islam," and castigate anyone who dares link religion to the events.
pediatricmedic
(397 posts)prouddemfromaustin44
(52 posts)In any case, I feel that religion in general is a farce. Yet so many are willing to murder other people in the name of their "God".
herding cats
(19,558 posts)As it should be.
The problem is the RW Christians are currently working to take over our lawmaking in the country. And they're not doing poorly at it at the moment. In case you've not noticed.
If Christians will keep their religion out of my politics, I swear to not care what they're up to in their churches, so long as they're not hurting anyone who isn't willing. That's how it's supposed to work in this country, but that's not how it's working at this moment in time.
For what it's worth, and before it comes up here, I don't say this about Muslims in the US because they're not creating policy in this country around their belief system. If/when they do attempt such, I'll be just as opposed to them trying to foist their doctrine on me politically. But, they're not the ones doing that to our country. It's just the Christians.
This country was formed under a concept that people can practice their religion of choice freely. Which is the opposite of forcing it down other peoples throats by trying to stack our courts and congress with a bunch of RW political zealots who are trying to impose Christian doctrine on us via laws.
Imagine that, people on a Democratic political forum being upset about RW political zealots attempting to force their belief system on the rest of the country? Personally, I'm glad some people still have enough sense to be upset about the fact that something like this is actually taking place in this country.
To the rest of you religious people who aren't trying to alter the laws in this country to fit your religious views, and don't think we all have to be just like you if we're to coexist. I am now, and have always been, fine with you. Just don't step on my civil rights and I won't step on yours.
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)we don't show as much anti-Muslim sentiment as you wish we would when some of them do bad shit. I remember clearly the very first day you showed up here and the circumstances under which it happened. Yes, you (and your agenda) made THAT much of an impression on me.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)What were those circumstances? I honestly don't remember. Was it something to do with Israel?
And yes, as I point out in my OP, I think there is a double standard in the response here to when a Christian or a Muslim does something like this recent attack (Just like there is a similar double standard among the right-wingers but in the opposite direction).
Iggo
(47,534 posts)Panich52
(5,829 posts)It doesn't help that the radicals who insist this country as founded on Christianity and envision its laws as Biblically based have so much political control and such loud and numerous voices. Vast majority of GOP POTUS candidates have expressed their allegiance to them. Too few reasonable Christians speak out — or are just too drowned out by the nuts who want their evangelical sharia laws to rule. Ted Cruz is the Dominionists' "Anointed One." Their goal is to religiously control all aspects of civic life with Biblical laws.
Those who more closely follow Jesus' actual ministry may be in the majority of Christians, but those who take up the hateful bigotry of Graham, Huckabee, Swanson (who wants death penalty f/ LGBTs), and Cruz's new pal, Troy Newman, who advocates violence against abortionists, have the microphone and are not willing to give it up. The result is a generally peaceful, loving religion tainted in the same way Daesh taints Islam.
It may seem unfair, but it's up to the rest of us to be more vocal, especially those who honor actual Christian teachings.
It's also important to VOTE. Get these damn theocrats out of legislatures, city councils and school boards to rid them of dominance in law-making and media coverage.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)As I Christian myself, I firmly believe you simply simply desire to be offended, are unable to find a specific to be offended by, and thus rely on innuendo and implication to better grant you the offense.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It was just an observation that I thought I would share. I am grateful to have sparked an interesting discussion and respect that some agree with me and others don't.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)It was visible back on the original DU, and reflected the biases of the overall community. As somewhat of a Christian, I've grown to accept that this is the way DU is. Although there are Christian members on DU, they are wildly outnumbered by the non-religious and the anti-religious. The latter are a small but noisy faction on DU, and tend to dominate all discussions on religion.
With our current moderation, or lack thereof, this thread, which should be in the Religion forum, is smack in the middle of GD.
Response to oberliner (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
DesertRat
(27,995 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)to a safe and legal abortion!
Ex Lurker
(3,811 posts)People don't want to admit it, but many, if not most DUers hold Christianity to a different standard than they do Islam. And I am not religious, so I have no axe to grind in making this observation.
yellowcanine
(35,693 posts)Reportedly the guy was talking about PP selling baby parts. Who is pushing that kind of talk? RW Christians, for the most part. So no, it is not a stretch to suspect that this guy was influenced by RW Christians, whether or not he actually is one - probably not, imo. But there is clearly nothing ant-Christian about saying that at this point. And not even close to the anti-Muslim rhetoric of the Right Wing. Stop with the false equivalency. It is not an accurate assessment.
IsItJustMe
(7,012 posts)You say the facts are not in. I beg to differ. There are interviews with Dear's ex wife regarding his religious and political views. The guy, without a doubt, is a right wing conservative Christian. If you want to deny that or defend this guy, then just go with that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Bear in mind, the OP is from a couple of days ago.
IsItJustMe
(7,012 posts)But it's always better to know the facts before rushing to judgment.
