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RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:03 PM Dec 2015

Why say "free" when we mean "tax-funded"?

"Free" seems to me to be a terrible word for Bernie's idea about education funding. It is easily rebuked - "nothing is free" - and is a terribly irritating word for many. I think tax-funded is more honest and does more work. By "work" I mean that many of our social woes can be traced to a divestiture of economy from community. Whether shipping jobs away, de-funding schools, ecological concerns, or passing off the health care disaster to future generations in the name of profit, people and businesses seem to be turning away from community. By bringing honor back to the term "tax" and "tax-funded," maybe we can re-discover some of our communities and better understand the interconnectivity of society and economy.

So, Bernie has my vote, but I wish he would please stop calling for "free" education. It sounds uninformed and I think it does more harm than good.

*I put this in GD because it is a comment on language - I don't think this is a policy or primary post*

47 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Why say "free" when we mean "tax-funded"? (Original Post) RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 OP
You have a valid point. Same as Socialism...he compares it to Sweden and Denmark. libdem4life Dec 2015 #1
Completely agree.... Sivart Dec 2015 #2
Agreed. It just gives ammunition to the other side. Scuba Dec 2015 #3
Sort of like Tax-funded Walmart. They pay low wages follow forcing people onto Katashi_itto Dec 2015 #4
K-12 is referred to as a "free education" Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #5
I will stand by my point for K-12 as well. Maybe even moreso since that is a sympathetic group RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #9
I will agree that K-12 is more sympathetic Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #21
I replied below. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #23
It's a misnomer ... Education isn't actually free Trajan Dec 2015 #10
Oh, really? I thought my paycheck for teaching just grew on trees. Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #13
Yeah ... You're not free ... Trajan Dec 2015 #15
It's not a fallacy Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #17
Who pays the taxes is a separate matter from the fact education is tax-funded. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #26
Bernie's entire educational premise and indeed the wider concept of Democratic Socialism is, RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #18
So do you equally go after Clinton? Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #20
No. Clinton is a non-starter for me. I explained my reasons for disliking the term. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #22
Fair enough. Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #25
I suggest "tax-funded" RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #27
In a general sense, I would be OK with that. Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #30
I suppose. I suppose one can be a Dem-Soc without uttering the word "taxes". RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #32
He's fighting the "taxes" battle on a different front Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #33
"Free at point of use" is the standard formula used for the NHS. Donald Ian Rankin Dec 2015 #6
More accurate, but not "catchy." Thank you for sharing this. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #11
My guess is that people are more afraid of the word tax mythology Dec 2015 #7
This is part of the image rehabilitation that the term "tax(es)" requires. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #12
I wish I could rec this a gazillion times! MindPilot Dec 2015 #8
You understand! RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #14
Roads, police, fire department zipplewrath Dec 2015 #16
But you are inverting the problem. It is the word "free" that is comparable to "challenges" and RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #19
I think a majority of people who bristle at kcr Dec 2015 #24
Right, yes. This language conversation can only be a tiny push against RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #29
Why do we call white a color when it's merely the absence of color? LanternWaste Dec 2015 #28
For projected light rather than reflected light RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #31
Resource allocation Kalidurga Dec 2015 #34
well, everybody pays taxes, in reality. And we should emphasize this point all the time. CTyankee Dec 2015 #44
I forget what country it is that has people pay fines according to their income Kalidurga Dec 2015 #45
It's shorter, and it's the normal term around the world muriel_volestrangler Dec 2015 #35
I understand that and it is part of the reason for my OP. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #36
Yep. Americans still love to pretend to be cowboys... Orsino Dec 2015 #37
Everything is free. Money is a human invention. hunter Dec 2015 #38
It is an invention used to - hypothetically, of course - translate labor into an exchangeable medium RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #40
If that's your religion, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. hunter Dec 2015 #43
Well, money is no spiritual experience for me and I am a man of no religion. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #46
Everything has a cost The2ndWheel Dec 2015 #42
Free sounds better than tax The2ndWheel Dec 2015 #39
It's free in that the tuition money doesn't immediately come from out of pocket meow2u3 Dec 2015 #41
"Publicly funded" is fine with me. RadiationTherapy Dec 2015 #47
 

libdem4life

(13,877 posts)
1. You have a valid point. Same as Socialism...he compares it to Sweden and Denmark.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:07 PM
Dec 2015

I wish he'd bring it home to the USA where people can relate.

Our society/culture/economics are full of socialist programs that people take for granted, i.e. "free" K-12 education...on and on.

 

Katashi_itto

(10,175 posts)
4. Sort of like Tax-funded Walmart. They pay low wages follow forcing people onto
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:24 PM
Dec 2015

"Free" food stamps. They give almost everyone working there part time status forcing them to go to the "Free" ER. Since they don't qualify for medical assistance.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
5. K-12 is referred to as a "free education"
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:25 PM
Dec 2015

Why should offering the same thing for college be called something different? If anything, he is being consistent with something that we have said is an awesome idea for our children up to the age of 18. Now he's just adding four years to that idea. If he started calling it something different, wouldn't that just give ammunition for the right to say "see, it's not the same thing"?

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
9. I will stand by my point for K-12 as well. Maybe even moreso since that is a sympathetic group
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:33 PM
Dec 2015

in terms of taxes and marketing, etc. However, I suspect that sympathy for "free programs" for individuals over age 18 takes a steep dip.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
21. I will agree that K-12 is more sympathetic
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:49 PM
Dec 2015

My point is that "free education" is a term that is very commonly used in the US. People know what it means. Bernie is just using the phrase that everyone knows.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
23. I replied below.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:53 PM
Dec 2015

But you are restating the point I am refuting without additional argument. Yes, I know it is in common use. I find it detrimental.

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
10. It's a misnomer ... Education isn't actually free
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:34 PM
Dec 2015

We pay for ALL public education by choice ...

I don't want 'free stuff' ... I want our society to wisely choose to pay their public education using our tax dollars ...

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
13. Oh, really? I thought my paycheck for teaching just grew on trees.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:36 PM
Dec 2015

We all know that public education is funded by taxes (though not all know which taxes--but that's a different story).

Bernie is just using the language we have been using in the US for some time. So not only should he fight to provide free education post-secondary, he also needs to fight the term we've been using for nearly a century?

 

Trajan

(19,089 posts)
15. Yeah ... You're not free ...
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:40 PM
Dec 2015

Even conversing with you here costs me a few seconds of my life ...

I should have known you were a teacher by the way you ... Signed your name?

Anyways, snarkiness aside - when someone uses the term 'free education', they are committing a fallacy ...

So please continue, teacher person ...

We are done here ...

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
17. It's not a fallacy
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:44 PM
Dec 2015

It is free for the person getting the product. They may or may not pay some taxes that go into the pool, but they don't have to pay to attend--it is free for all that are in the district. As opposed to private education that you need to pay for. Even if you don't pay taxes, you get to have the education.

Why the teacher hate? I'm sorry that someone in my profession was horrible to you at some point in your life.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
26. Who pays the taxes is a separate matter from the fact education is tax-funded.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:55 PM
Dec 2015

As I mentioned before, I think the word taxes has a hell of a lot more implication of community than does a semantically twisted version of "free".

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
18. Bernie's entire educational premise and indeed the wider concept of Democratic Socialism is,
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:46 PM
Dec 2015

quite literally, based on taxes. So he is already fighting this fight. Say the word - "taxes" - "free" is a fantasy and a rhetorically weak word in this context.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
20. So do you equally go after Clinton?
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:48 PM
Dec 2015
Clinton was responding to a question from an audience member who attended Monday's show with her grandson. The grandmother asked Clinton how she would make college more affordable, and Clinton brought up her $350 billion New College Compact. The New College Compact, released in August, would give free tuition to community college students but make public college families "do their part" in paying for higher education, like making "realistic contributions" and having students work 10 hours a week.

http://www.ibtimes.com/hillary-clinton-tuition-plan-making-college-free-donald-trumps-kids-not-what-2126868

It's a phrase that everyone uses. Pretty much everyone realizes that the education doesn't really cost $0.00 to provide.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
22. No. Clinton is a non-starter for me. I explained my reasons for disliking the term.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:52 PM
Dec 2015

I realize it is in wide use and I find that to be to the detriment of the national political conversation. I am sorry if I wasn't clear or was too Bernie-centric.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
25. Fair enough.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:55 PM
Dec 2015

I just don't know what the phrase needs to be without being unduly complex and, to some extent, setting it self apart from K-12 education.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
30. In a general sense, I would be OK with that.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:58 PM
Dec 2015

But in the terms of Bernie using that phrase now, it is problematic. We would need to have that phrase be used extensively for K-12 education first so that everyone would realize it would be the same type of thing.

 

Goblinmonger

(22,340 posts)
33. He's fighting the "taxes" battle on a different front
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 05:03 PM
Dec 2015

with raising the top rates. But I get what you're saying. Our country is pretty damn weird when it comes to taxes.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
6. "Free at point of use" is the standard formula used for the NHS.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:25 PM
Dec 2015

The important distinction is that how much you pat doesn't depend on how much you use.

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
7. My guess is that people are more afraid of the word tax
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:28 PM
Dec 2015

We have a political culture that abhors paying taxes. It sucks as taxes can be used well and to provide for the general welfare, but so many people revolt against higher taxes.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
12. This is part of the image rehabilitation that the term "tax(es)" requires.
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:36 PM
Dec 2015

We can't avoid it, I don't think. If we do, well, we may need a better word than "free".

 

MindPilot

(12,693 posts)
8. I wish I could rec this a gazillion times!
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:28 PM
Dec 2015

Calling something like education "free" just gives the opposition the exact talking point they need to dismiss the whole concept.

"So who's gonna pay for it?"

Things like healthcare and education are a common good. Just like well-maintained roads and a safe air traffic control system, we all benefit so we all contribute. Anyone got a problem with chipping in a buck or two each paycheck to keep airliners from falling on your house? Probably not, then why so much opposition to healthcare that would keep nasty diseases from spreading around, or making sure as many as possible have productive skills so they are not panhandling in front of the Krogers?

Nobody ever tries to pitch police protection as "free"; it is just understood that paying for it is part of the rent.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
16. Roads, police, fire department
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:42 PM
Dec 2015

We refer to all of these services as "free" at some point. None of it is free and all of it is supported by taxes of some sort.

I think one can get way to over interested in semantics. "A rose by any other name..."

You can start calling spiders by a different name, it won't take long for the new name to take on the same negative connotation as spider. You can call it "shared sacrafice" if you want, or "share responsibility" or whatever. But in the end it will become known for exactly what it is.

Ever had a boss tell you "we don't have problems, we have challenges". Or worse, "it's not a crisis, it's an opportunity".

Did that change your perceptions?

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
19. But you are inverting the problem. It is the word "free" that is comparable to "challenges" and
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:48 PM
Dec 2015

"opportunities." The word "taxes" is the reality. The word "free" is the semantic game, from my perspective.

kcr

(15,319 posts)
24. I think a majority of people who bristle at
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:54 PM
Dec 2015

It doesn't matter what you call it. We need to somehow get away from the hyper-individualist thinking in our society in order to get more people to accept ideas like that. I hate to say it, but people who quibble at free are just trying to find ways to argue against it because no one thinks The College Fairy is going to wave her wand and pay the bills.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
29. Right, yes. This language conversation can only be a tiny push against
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:57 PM
Dec 2015

the hyper-individualism you describe. I only have partial solutions, I'm afraid.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
28. Why do we call white a color when it's merely the absence of color?
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 04:57 PM
Dec 2015

Why do we call white a color when it's merely the absence of color? It's easily rebuked. By bringing honor back to the phrase 'absence of color'. Maybe we can rediscover some of our communities.

So I like Clause Monet, but I wish he would have never called white a color preference... it sounds uniformed and I think does more harm than good.



RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
31. For projected light rather than reflected light
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 05:01 PM
Dec 2015

white is all colors. For reflected light, white is the 100% reflection of all colors and 0% absorption. Black is the reverse for all of these examples.

Color is fascinating and part of the reason I studied physics for a few years. As a painter and light artist, I am still fascinated by black and white.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
34. Resource allocation
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 05:13 PM
Dec 2015

Some people will not be paying taxes and some people will. Some people will be entitled to use the resources that people pool together to provide some will not. Right now we have a situation where people are paying lots of taxes for very little in terms of services and being able to access resources while the rich get very cheap labor and hold onto vast amounts of wealth giving back very little.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
44. well, everybody pays taxes, in reality. And we should emphasize this point all the time.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 05:55 PM
Dec 2015

Sales taxes apply to everyone and that is why they are so regressive. But we need to stress just that when we get into this type of argument. I am so sick of it. I hate this "the poor don't pay taxes" when they most certainly do and it hits their pocketbooks harder than the middle or upper classes.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
45. I forget what country it is that has people pay fines according to their income
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 06:54 PM
Dec 2015

anyway I read about a millionaire that had to pay what would be about 6,000 dollars for what would be a very low fine in the US.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,359 posts)
35. It's shorter, and it's the normal term around the world
Wed Dec 16, 2015, 05:26 PM
Dec 2015

"taxpayer-funded higher education" Google results: 2,310 results
"tax-funded higher education" 394 results
"free higher education" 113,000 results
"taxpayer-funded tuition" 1,450 results
"tax-funded tuition" 2,030 results
"free tuition" 487,000 results
"taxpayer-funded university tuition" 4 results
"tax-funded university tuition" 3 results
"free university tuition" 21,800 results

The Wikipedia article is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_education

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
36. I understand that and it is part of the reason for my OP.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 12:18 PM
Dec 2015

Thank you for the research and compilation. Your info combined with yet another "free tuition" thread gone down the predictable course makes me believe it is very necessary to re-connect taxes with social services and to re-connect economy with community.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
37. Yep. Americans still love to pretend to be cowboys...
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 12:31 PM
Dec 2015

...and corporate media have sufficiently demonized taxation that typically socialized efforts are seen as expenses rather than investments in ourselves.

hunter

(38,325 posts)
38. Everything is free. Money is a human invention.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 01:02 PM
Dec 2015

Be thankful the air you breathe hasn't been monetized yet. (Who knows how long that will last...)

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
40. It is an invention used to - hypothetically, of course - translate labor into an exchangeable medium
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 02:32 PM
Dec 2015

that can be carried in one's pocket.

But I disagree that "everything is free." Some things - a very many things that, I think, improve life immeasurably compared to even just decades ago - only exist because of labor and coordination of effort.

hunter

(38,325 posts)
43. If that's your religion, nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 05:21 PM
Dec 2015

What we are calling "economic productivity" these days is a direct measure of the damage we are doing to the earth's natural environment and the human spirit.

That's just the wretched numbers. I can do the math.

Fortunately I don't have to believe in anything to get through the day. Nature will always do what nature does. Exponential growth always ends. As they say on the triage deck, the bleeding always stops. (My sister is a paramedic, my wife's career is similar, with even more high power, highly scientific, highly technical university training.)

This planet has seen many innovative species flame out. We humans are not the first, and we won't be the last.

In ten million years nothing is left of us but a peculiar layer of trash in the geologic record and a few bits of metal floating around in outer space.

Personally I think we should be paying people not to work, and that taxes ought to approach 100% at some multiple of this minimum income, probably a multiple less than twenty. Pump the oxygenated water into the bottom of the pond, skim the scum off the top.

The world would actually be a better place if some people stayed home all day having protected sex, smoking pot, and playing video games. Hard working gangsters and steroid pumping gun loving cops do not make a community a better place.

Even better, further education and art. Free. Celebrated.

The devil finds work for idle hands. It's called Wal-Mart. It's some fucking church stuffed full of affluent "Prosperity Theology" Christians, madly seeking something, anything, to fill up the empty places in their souls.

Realistic, sustainable, economics is basic pond maintenance. If the circulation stops the scum on the top gets so thick the environment beneath becomes dark and anaerobic.

Our high energy, fossil fueled economy, in which the rich get richer, and everyone else gets kicked around by sadistic goons wearing steel toed boots, needs to be killed dead, with extreme prejudice.

I doubt the wealthy political classes of this world will ever support fair, sustainable economic systems, but nature will stomp'm extinct one of these days.

Whatever happens, the meek shall inherit the earth, but only because there are so many of them.

It's not a hypothetical thing either. There are places on this planet today where civilization is already collapsing.

Seeing the world through the eyes of an evolutionary biologist doesn't mean I exist in a dark hopeless place. This world is endlessly fascinating, I can honestly say I've never been bored. My family, crazy artists the whole lot of them, bring me great joy. My pets, all of them from the shelter, make me happy, even when they are bad. I have a garden, especially a tomato vine that thinks it's a perennial. I like computers. I don't buy hardware or software. People throw away easily repairable computers that run Open Source software just fine. (Debian is awesome! Your mileage may vary. I've been on the internet since 1979 and was present when the early BSD editions were released into the wild. After a brief and sometimes lucrative affair with Microsoft Windows, Debian was like coming home again.)

I've been homeless and off-my-meds too. Dumpster diving feral man. There's no promise I won't visit that place again.

But wow, it's all been a wild ride, even in an economy largely controlled by disgusting sociopaths.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
46. Well, money is no spiritual experience for me and I am a man of no religion.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 07:25 PM
Dec 2015

I also don't personify nature. I too have eaten from dumpsters. I too have lived in the woods and been unemployed for years pursuing non-materiality. I now just live moderately.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
42. Everything has a cost
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 02:43 PM
Dec 2015

Humans are just good at hiding or manipulating it. It's always there though, one way or another.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
39. Free sounds better than tax
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 01:15 PM
Dec 2015

It'll be difficult to bring honor back to the word tax, when you look up the definition of the word tax.

Then, if taxes are what hold our community together, and I happen to think taxes are about the only thing that holds America together(because it seems like we're all pretty sick of each other), then we don't really have a community to hold together.

meow2u3

(24,771 posts)
41. It's free in that the tuition money doesn't immediately come from out of pocket
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 02:37 PM
Dec 2015

I hope I cleared that up for you.

Or, you can call it a publicly funded college eduction.

RadiationTherapy

(5,818 posts)
47. "Publicly funded" is fine with me.
Thu Dec 17, 2015, 07:27 PM
Dec 2015

I find "Free" to be disingenuous and easily argued, but I already said all that.

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