1400 people being laid off

[Capt. Obvious]

&feature=youtu.be

[Wilms]

1. Credit goes to the Clintons for NAFTA.

None of this would have possible.

Hillary Clinton has made statements unequivocally trumpeting NAFTA as the greatest thing since sliced bread. The Buffalo News reports that back in 1998, Clinton attended the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and thanked praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." Yes, you read that right: She traveled to Davos to thank corporate interests for their campaign ramming NAFTA through Congress.

On November 1, 1996, United Press International reported that on a trip to Brownsville, Texas, Clinton "touted the president's support for the North American Free Trade Agreement, saying it would reap widespread benefits in the region."

The Associated Press followed up the next day noting that Hillary Clinton touted the fact that "the president would continue to support economic growth in South Texas through initiatives such as the North American Free Trade Agreement."

http://mirroronamerica.blogspot.com/2008/02/hillary-can-run-but-cant-hide-from.html

[sharp_stick]

3. Sometimes I wish

I could see life as this black and white, it would make is so much easier.

[Javaman]

6. okay, please explain the gray areas. nt

[pampango]

10. What would have stopped Carrier from moving to Mexico without NAFTA?

US tariffs on imports from Mexico averaged 4% prior to NAFTA.

Overall, manufacturing employment increased under Clinton, plunged under Bush and has rebounded since 2010 under Obama.

60,000 manufacturing jobs were added in the U.S. in 2014, versus 12,000 in 2003, either through so-called reshoring, in which American companies bring jobs back to the U.S., or foreign direct investment, in which foreign companies move production to the U.S., according to a study from the Reshoring Initiative. In contrast, as many as 50,000 jobs were “offshored” last year (2014), a decline from about 150,000 in 2003.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-flips-the-script-on-jobs-reshoring-finally-outpaced-offshoring-in-2014-2015-05-01

http://www.rippdemup.com/politics/us-manufacturing-growth-faster-under-barack-obama-than-george-w-bush/

Manufacturing employment is at 12.3 million at the end of 2015 up from 11.5 million at the end of 2009. At least it has been increasing - slowly - for the last 6 years under Obama.

[Javaman]

12. it appears from your chart that the growth was enemic at best.

then plunged off a cliff once the repukes took full advantage under bush to off shore jobs to mexico.

but no matter how much anyone tries to put a positive spin on this, manufacturing jobs have had a massive net loss since NAFTA went into effect, no?

[pampango]

16. "Anemic" (your term). "Slowly" (mine). Agreed but at least - increasing.

... manufacturing jobs have had a massive net loss since NAFTA went into effect, no?

Definitely. The questions are: How much did NAFTA have to do with it? And would it have happened without NAFTA?

The rise of China and the explosive gains of its manufacturing sector dwarfs that of Mexico. Of course, NAFTA had nothing to do with the decrease in American manufacturing jobs linked to the rise of China which is more than 10 times the size of Mexico. I doubt that maintaining 4% tariffs on Mexican goods would have affected neither the rise in China's manufacturing nor Carrier's decision.

US manufacturing jobs peaked in 1979 and have been declining ever since - long before NAFTA. It has been declining in every 'rich' country during the same time while manufacturing output in each country increased tremendously. The US (and other rich countries) manufacture a lot more stuff than we did in 1979. We and the other countries unfortunately use fewer countries to do it.

[Javaman]

18. NAFTA’s 20-Year Legacy and the Fate of the Trans-Pacific Partnership

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTA-at-20.pdf

it's a great read. a in depth analysis of nafta and it's direct effect upon the US workforce, economy and wages.

[pampango]

22. That analysis seems to depend largely on the increasing trade deficit with Mexico but

that may not have been caused by NAFTA.

There was only a small tariff on imports from Mexico before NAFTA. Even if NAFTA had never happened, those tariffs might not have made much difference. (As the analysis pointed out our trade deficit with Canada increased under NAFTA as well, but we had a free trade agreement with Canada since 1988 so it is unlikely that increase was due to NAFTA.) Our trade (and trade deficits) with the rest of the world was increasing at that time, well beyond the scope of NAFTA and would probably have done the same with Mexico without NAFTA.

We had much larger increases in trade deficits during the same time period with countries that had nothing to do with NAFTA. From 1993 to 2015 our imports from Mexico have increased by a factor of 7.5, our exports by 5.7. Our imports from China (which entered the WTO in 2001) have increased in the same period by a factor of 15.3, our exports there by 13.4. Imports from Russia (which did not enter the WTO until 2012) have increased by 9.8 times, our exports by 2.4 times.

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/index.html#C

There have been many more substantial increases in our trade deficits with many countries that were not a part of NAFTA and with which we have no trade agreements. The same might well have happened with Mexico without NAFTA.

[hfojvt]

14. that is interesting

what accounts for that steep drop though?

Easy to say "Bush" but what, pacifically, did he do?

[pampango]

17. I don't know. It increased under Clinton and the last 5 years under Obama after

falling off a cliff under Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. If I were in a 'bipartisan' mood, I might speculate that it could just a big coincidence - that the republican presidents were 'unlucky' and the Democrats were 'lucky' - but that seems statistically quite unlikely.

[hfojvt]

24. well the last five years of Obama

is just a slight recovery after the Bush recession of 2008

it did not really fall off a cliff under Reagan other than a sharp drop for the recession of 1982.

There was another recession in 1992, but I did not think it was that severe. Neither was the recession of 2001 when there was a very steep drop.

Probably a key is right here in wiki "China's MFN status was made permanent on December 27, 2001." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_favoured_nation#United_States

[flygal]

20. This is when jobs went to China

Walmart expanded like crazy and basically demanded their products be made there (based on price requirements) that's when Rubbermaid moved over or else they couldn't supply to Walmart. There was a Frontline in the mid-2000s about this.

[BlueJazz]

4. NAFTA has been a true lifesaver to america's Country Clubs.

[whistler162]

33. Think I will blame Alexander Haig instead.

[Blus4u]

2. I worked for Carrier's transport refrigeration division

from '87 - '06. The clip above is of the Indianapolis plant? Do you have a date this was taken?
I saw the dismantling of the campus in Syracuse, closure of McMinnville, TN, the movement of refrigeration container facility to Singapore.

Pretty sad. Lots of good jobs lost.

Peace

[rufus dog]

15. This sounds more accurate

From what I know about the company they moved everything to Asia. Then the new group of genius executives sold off the services arm because they were only focused on margin.

Guess what you stupid executive shits, people buy HVAC when units fail, so if you don't have service guys on the payroll making service calls, you impact your sales.

[TBF]

21. A couple of days ago -

Carrier employee filmed announcement
· February 10 at 9:38am · Indianapolis, IN

^ Found on Facebook. It's trending.

[Brickbat]

5. That's the actual sound of jobs leaving the country. Union jobs averaging $21/hour.

[Anti-Establishment]

7. HILLARY helped cause this.

And she just got the DNC rules changed to accept more wall street money so she can give more union jobs away...

[rug]

8. Class warfare, live.

[spanone]

9. why, i thought republican governors were all about keeping jobs?...they've had 2 reTHUG governors

mitch daniels & fucking mike pence...i'd leave too.

[Odin2005]

11. Expect more if this under Hillary.

[Skittles]

27. we can expect more of this no matter who is president

[hfojvt]

13. sounds like some of them

will still be working for a few years, most of them still have a job for another year.

That guy kept saying he had information, but much of what he said was NOT very informative. "This is a business decision". Er, okay, so what? "I am going to hit you with this five pound hammer, but it is just business."

Wow, good to know that, that sure takes a lot of the hurt away.

[B Calm]

19. Credit goes to Carrier CEO, period!

[Blus4u]

23. Carrier is owned by United Technologies.

In addition to Carrier, United Technologies also owns Otis Elevators, Pratt & Whitney (jet engines) and in 2015 was selling Sikorsky helicopter. These are the four majors that make up UTC (UTX is the NYSE symbol). Indianapolis was Carrier's big flagship plant.

This move would have the approval of UTC and probably their board.

By the way, another 700 jobs are going as well, from Unitrd Technologies Electronic Controls.

Peace

[tammywammy]

32. Sikorsky was sold to Lockheed Martin last year.

[Stuart G]

25. k and r...nt

[Duckhunter935]

26. thanks to the Clinton's

Bernie and Trump gain voters. Sad

[The Jungle 1]

28. Walk

Just once I would like to see the employees of a company just walk away. If these workers just walked away right now the company would go under within a month.

This all started when we union members didn't shut down the country when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. Big mistake!

[sweetapogee]

29. no...

United Technologies is one of the largest corporations in the world. They are not going anywhere, sorry if that offends it's just the reality of things.

[The Jungle 1]

37. You misunderstand

United Technologies would survive however Carrier the heat pump company within United would fail without workers to make this portion of the product. No you cannot restaff a factory of skilled workers on short notice. Carrier would fail. The part of the company they are moving to Mexico probably will fail anyway. I believe they make the controls.

These workers have already made the bad move of agreeing to a two tier wage system. That never works. All that does is finance the companies move. They always move. You give up your wages and they move anyway. Workers make 14 or 26 dollars an hour at this plant. The company tells you if you give up your wages we will stay and it is a big fat fing lie every time.

I have watched as numerous companies in the northeast move south and then fail. Mack truck moved back many just went under. One company I worked for moved part of the operation south and could not get the equipment running. They actually asked for our help. They didn't get any!

If they want to move to Mexico then move and stay there. Don't sell your product in the USA sell it there. Stay out of our market.

I still say the workers should walk out right now.

[sweetapogee]

40. sounds good

Didn't Mack move the iconic Bulldog statue out of the Lehigh Valley?

[The Jungle 1]

43. Don't know

I don't know if they moved the statue or not. I do know that the plant they started down south failed miserably. They fired the CEO and came back to the valley. Mack now works WITH the union to produce trucks.

[Blus4u]

41. It is both manufacturing entities.

Carrier's Indianapolis plant (1400 jobs) and United Technologies Electrinic Controls (700) jobs.
UTEC makes the electronic controls for a/c and refrigeration systems that Carrier makes.

If the employees were to walk on Monday morning, it would probably cause huge problems for Carrier, but it would be devastating for the employees. These folks have mortgages, car payments and families to feed. The relatively good paying jobs they hold now will keep the lights on at home, while they scramble for new jobs. I know if I was in their place - I would have to stay until I could find something else.

Having worked in manufacturing for more than 35 years, in plants as big as these two - there are many married couples who both work at the same place in different departments. Both working incomes are eliminated.

Truly sad....and the execs will all receive bonuses and stock options for all the money they are "saving".

Peace

[The Jungle 1]

44. Yup

Which is why a walk out of this type never happens. I just wish it would happen.
I have also worked in manufacturing for 40 years. I live in the northeast and I have watched as one company after the other closed and moved south or China or Mexico.

It shocks me that corporations still do this because the vast majority of the companies in this area failed after they moved. No one but upper management supports the move and they will get very little real help making the move. The people in middle management in those companies don't want to live in Mexico. They will provide help with a wink and a nod and hold on until they get a severance package. They also know they will have to find a job. One local company that made truck mirrors moved to Mexico. It failed. But while there management and engineering didn't even want to travel to Mexico. A company that made gauges for 100 years in this area moved to China. They no longer make gauges at all. Mack moved and came back. Moving a company is a huge risk.

One company I worked for made aerospace products and interestingly moved to Shelby Ind. They move to get away from the union. The move worked but the wages are so low that they have constant turnover. Some of the work has come back.

During WWII Jews and others were forced into labor making bombs for the Germans. Funny story. A lot of those bombs didn't go off!

[davsand]

30. The Clintons and Gore all pitched NAFTA like it was a terrific thing.

That was **THE** thing at the time.

Here's a look at Hillary's history: http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/21/401123124/a-timeline-of-hillary-clintons-evolution-on-trade

A discussion about Gore on NAFTA: http://www.donellameadows.org/archives/the-nafta-debate-more-than-al-gore-and-ross-perot/

As I recall, Ross Perot said at the time that the GIANT sucking sound you were hearing was jobs leaving the US. I was not a Ross Perot fan, but he wasn't too far off the mark. Unions knew it was bad, and the Dems pushed it through anyway. Now, in retrospect, the rest of the country is seeing up close and personal just HOW very bad that agreement was.

I have always held NAFTA against the Clintons. Always will.

FYI, Sanders on NAFTA: https://pplswar.wordpress.com/2015/08/14/when-bernie-sanders-trolled-congress-over-nafta/



Laura

[avaistheone1]

42. You are correct.

[HDSam]

31. Well,

that pretty much guarantees I won't be replacing my old condenser with a Carrier unit.

It would be interesting to see if the quality and reliability of Carrier air handlers and furnaces produced after this announcement increases, decreases or stays the same.

[yuiyoshida]

34. They should have rioted...

I would love to see some corporate ass being chased from the podium. In the old days, I have heard, they would have pelted him with rotten tomatoes. This guy is a corporate mouth piece but seems like he enjoys being the bearer of bad news, and watching him chased off the stage would have been awesome!

[DustyJoe]

35. Cornfusing

How can companies move to mexico claiming lower wages when the mexican low wage workforce is streaming north into the US at a high rate ? They might as well of stayed where they were and just hired a few thousand sweatshop illegals. Ridiculous reasoning these corporations espouse.

[Iggo]

36. .

[Elwood P Dowd]

38. Its not just the low wages.

They go to Mexico or China because they can dump pollution anywhere they want, deny the workers any labor rights, avoid Social Security contributions, offer zero employee benefits such as health care or retirement, and totally avoid any government intervention regardless of what they do.

[DustyJoe]

45. exactly

With the exception of US pollution regs the employers of illegals that hire the illegals under the table (illegal to hire illegals) all seem to do just as you list as far as benefits, SS, rights etc.

[hunter]

39. Big business is so short sighted.

Who will buy Carrier air conditioning?

First these corporations will push the majority of U.S. workers into the economic territory where a single cheap Chinese window air conditioner is a luxury.

Further down this path there will be no new air conditioners at all, except in the hands of a few powerful people, hand built and maintained from the wreckage of industrial society by guys like Willis Carrier himself.

Air conditioning powered by fossil fuels is crazy. Carbon dioxide, methane, and other greenhouse gasses makes the world a much hotter place, and then you need more air conditioning.

I suppose solar or nuclear powered air conditioners would be better, but both sources of power are expensive and toxic, yet not so much as fossil fuels, the damages of which we tend to ignore. Mercury in our fish, arsenic in food and water, people dying of cancer and other diseases caused by air pollution, who cares? Yawn.

My wife's parents have wealthy neighbors who have gone aggressively solar, more than enough to keep their house cool and the water in their swimming pool filtered and disinfected. But that's not the kind of affluence most of these laid off Carrier workers or their replacements in Mexico will ever enjoy.