British voters who oppose immigration, multiculturalism, social liberalism, etc. were pro-Brexit

[YoungDemCA]

And by overwhelming margins, for that matter.



On either side, 51% of voters thought capitalism was a force for ill, while 49% thought it was a force for good.

But sure, the results of this referendum were about "neoliberal tyranny."

[Wellstone ruled]

1. And we are seeing the same coming from the Trump supporters.

Hate filled old White people yearning for Ozzie and Harriet and Father knows best.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Anyone who is claiming this was about "neoliberalism" is an idiot, full stop

I am sick of seeing so much deplorable ignorance and stupidity on a subject that most people here know absolutely nothing about. It's especially charming to have so many of our self-appointed experts on "neoliberalism" tell me my opinion doesn't count when I actually live in the UK and have seen what this whole campaign has been like up close from start to finish.

[1StrongBlackMan]

6. LOL ...

Anyone who is claiming this was about "neoliberalism" is an idiot, full stop

Or, just repeating what the cool kids are saying.

[Odin2005]

8. Or brainlessly repeating what juvinile rags like Counterpunch say.

And I say that as a person who adored Counterpunch in the early 00s when I was a stupid teenager.

[1StrongBlackMan]

9. LOL.

[DonCoquixote]

14. please tell me you include Glenn Greenwald on that list of idiots

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

The problem with him is that, while he does point out genuine truths, he mixes it with a lot of "yah the bad guys lost" bs, it's like like taking medicine and having someone mix cyanide with your pills.

[herding cats]

21. Calling them idiots is a bit harsh to me.

Misinformed, easily confused people who follow the wrong lead is more accurate. Some of them will learn to be less easily manipulated in time.

I understand your passion, since you're living at ground zero of the matter, though. I can't imagine the stress of being a young citizen of the UK right now. My heart goes out to each and everyone of them.

[Person 2713]

26. UKIP rhetoric is a 'bit harsh' too....i understand the anger that comes from their hate talk winning

Btw Fuck trump !

[pampango]

3. AND anti-feminism and anti-Green. Why they could almost be considered to be CONSERVATIVES!

Imagine that.

Could it be that conservatives wanted out of the EU (too 'socialist' perhaps) and liberals wanted to remain in the EU? That sounds a little to logical when can claim - without providing evidence - that Brexit was really about rejecting neoliberalism or an undemocratic EU or socialism - none of which show up in the polling data.

[mainer]

4. Areas of Britain with most subsidies from EU voted most strongly for Brexit

Found this very telling chart from the Financial Times. The ignorant voting against their own interests, just like in Kansas.

https://twitter.com/FT/status/746681886131486720

[cstanleytech]

5. Cornwall which is one of those areas getting millions from the EU is now

begging the UK government to agree that it will make up the difference it stands to lose if the UK should leave the EU

[1StrongBlackMan]

7. Why is the Left so quick to argue someone is "voting against their own interests"; when ...

the people they are talking about are very clear in what they consider their primary interest, whether it's Racism, Islamophobia, heterosexism, sexism or whatever ism or bia they choose.

[LeftishBrit]

10. While some of the Brexiteers are racist for the sake of racism...

and we've been seeing this in some very ugly incidents lately, many are anti-immigrant because they've been convinced that their unemployment, insecure employment, or low pay is caused by 'immigrants taking our jobs". When these problems are mostly caused by the policies of the very people who are persuading them that it's the immigrants/EU that are taking their jobs.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. Does it really matter WHY someone acts in a racist manner?

[Straw Man]

12. Only if you want to find a way to make them stop.

Some are beyond hope, but not all.

[LeftishBrit]

13. Not in influencing whether we have zero-tolerance for racist incidents; but possibly in finding ways

to prevent some of it.

If people are kept in bad and insecure conditions, and then some leaders come along seeking to divide and rule, racism and other forms of bigotry are more likely to happen. At the extreme, those are main reasons why Nazism and Fascism got such a foothold in Europe - which doesn't mean that we shouldn't have fought the fascists to the death, but does mean that keeping people in bad conditions and then persuading them to blame each other, or Others, for their misfortunes, is generally a bad and dangerous idea.

[DonCoquixote]

15. no surprise

after al the red states here take in more fed money than they give.

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-most-least-dependent-on-the-federal-government/2700/

[davidn3600]

16. Multiculturalism has its problems

We are seeing it in Europe today.

I am not saying immigration is the problem....the problem is how its being done. The "salad bowl" has never worked. EVER! Only "melting pots" work.

[NuclearDem]

17. Ah. This makes all your other pro-Brexit posts make a lot more sense.

[davidn3600]

18. So the EU's current policy on the migrant crisis is working in your mind?

You can go on and believe what you want. My opinion is based on history and sociology. This current policy won't work. It will only breed more racism and nationalism. And if you have paid any attention at all the news....that's exactly what's happening.

[NuclearDem]

19. So, your solution to the rise of racists and nationalists in Europe

is to cheer on racists and nationalists breaking Europe apart.

[uponit7771]

20. This is false on its face

[davidn3600]

22. Nope, not false at all

Theories of social psychology say it's going to fail. The EU's goals of a distinct multicultural continent is inconsistent with the reality of human psychology.

I have read and researched extensively on topics such as Social Identity Theory. This is actually a quite complex topic. Entire books are written on it. Putting it simply, Social Identity Theory suggests human beings have a natural tendency to assign themselves to a social group membership (race, nationality, class, political party, favorite football team, etc..). Human beings like groups and we like to fit in and be a part of a group. We then elevate our group and attack the out groups in order to improve our own self-esteem and elevate our own perception of the self within the larger community. This theory is frequently used to explain racism and prejudice. If social identity theory is true, multiculturalism will actually end up unintentionally creating MORE racism in the world. This is because you are essentially keeping the in-groups and out-groups from integrating (assimilating), yet you are forcing them to become more in contact with each other. This means they will naturally begin to compete with each other for social dominance. This will bring out feelings of racism and increase a sense of nationalism among the host populations as they become more defensive of their own cultures. We see this now happening throughout Europe. And we see hints of it even in our own Presidential election.

This is just a theory, of course. But there are multiple historical examples of this happening and psychological research exists that support it's premise.

Some in Europe have figured it out. The Netherlands for example now forces immigrants to learn Dutch if they want to be part of that society. Germany is even strongly considering laws that force migrants to learn German if they want to remain there long-term. France and Netherlands have banned women from wearing the Burqa. So some of these countries are starting to learn how multiculturalism has some flaws that can't be reconciled.

There has to be some form of assimilation and promotion to integrate to the host population's culture. Otherwise you will continue to have increasing levels of racism and social disconnects.

There is an old saying related to this....
"When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

[uponit7771]

23. This position is a supremacist one, who gets to decide what "Rome" is in a country like the UK or

... the US? The Natives!??! Really?!

This notion of tribalism is the moral direction is false on its face, its not... tribalism is what the greasy grifters stoke when they want something for themselves.

[The2ndWheel]

24. Wars are fought to figure out who gets to make the rules

Might has always made right in human history. Who gets to decide what "Rome" is in a country like the UK or US? The people who named it the UK or US, unless someone takes that power away from them, like in every other nation that has ever existed.

[uponit7771]

25. True, and those wars are immoral ones related to tribalism... relative to THE moral direction ...

... tribalism and stoking it has always been immoral for selfish people.

I'm not going to normalize immorality of stoking tribalism and say its the standard, its not

[The2ndWheel]

27. Morality has nothing to do with it

Right, wrong, good, bad, they're different for everyone. Someone you call selfish can just as easily call you selfish for what you believe in, and think they're just as correct, because it's all subjective opinion.

Even calling some people selfish is a form of tribalism. The selfish vs. the unselfish. The moral vs. the immoral.

[uponit7771]

29. This is false on its face, its immoral to stoke tribalism for the sake of selfish means like getting

...elected or passing partisan measures.

[The2ndWheel]

31. Again with the immorality

What authority made it immoral? The one with the vested interest in making something against that authority immoral?

Is there anything that you can morally stoke for the sake of selfish means like getting elected or passing partisan measures? Is it possible to immorally stoke, whatever the opposite of tribalism is, say, globalism, for the sake of selfish means like getting elected or passing partisan measures?

[uponit7771]

32. Facts are important...so yes..I stand be my position...again

[The2ndWheel]

33. What are the facts? nt

[uponit7771]

34. Fact no in dispute: Its immoral to stoke human supremacist tribalism, for the sake of ...

... of furthering selfish partisan agendas.

[The2ndWheel]

35. That's an opinion

The fact in there is that stoking of human supremacist tribalism, for the sake of furthering selfish partisan agendas, exists as a concept in politics. Your opinion is that it's immoral to do so.

[uponit7771]

38. So is its immoral to murder (notice I don't mention the legality) ... you can defend racist....

... xenophobic shit but I'm not.

[davidn3600]

28. You are not really understanding reality

You are flatly rejecting what is basic social psychology and the reality of human civilization.

Americans consider themselves citizens of the United States. We don't consider ourselves citizens of the world. Just like Brits consider themselves citizens of the UK and not citizens of the European Union.

If you don't believe me....go on the street and ask random people "What are you a citizen of?" I guarantee you 99% of people will respond "America" or some other country. They won't say "the world." We classify ourselves by nationality. You cannot travel in this world without a passport. That passport identifies your "tribe," as you call it.

The world isn't borderless. We have around 200 different countries on this planet. Each country is made up of people of a particular culture. Each county may have a different language, a different history, different religion, different laws and traditions. This isn't a supremacist view, this is a reality of how this world works. You may not like that, but it is what it is. It's always been this way and it will be this way for quite some time in the future.

[uponit7771]

30. I'm black, I understand the reality of stoking tribalism against a set of people for the sake of

... selfish gain.

No matter what the context its wrong, there's no normalizing of it cause it was done in the past or whatever justification.

The folk in the UK can be UK folk and still be a part of the EU.

What country they're a citizen of is not a factor in that stoking tribalism for the sake of selfish means is wrong

[pampango]

37. There are many Europeans (particularly the young who have grown up with the EU) who consider

themselves to be European as much or more than they see themselves to be British or French or Dutch. And Europeans can travel in Europe without a passport.

And many of us do not consider nationalism (and more than racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc.) to be immutable or desirable belief systems, even though they have existed throughout history.

[pampango]

36. And will be pro-Trump in a few months. Same attitudes; different countries. n/t