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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBeing outside the EU hasn't hurt Norway or Switzerland
Everyone is talking as if Britain cannot survive without the EU. I personally think that's complete bullshit. Switzerland, Iceland, and Norway are living pretty decent lives in Europe without the umbrella of the EU. Why exactly does the UK need the EU? Why can't the UK negotiate their own trade deals?
I actually think the question should be the other way around.... Can the EU survive without Britain?
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underpants
(182,839 posts)Well they thought they did.
jehop61
(1,735 posts)Totally different economies that were never entwined in the EU Treaty. Great Britain will likely crumble as Scotland and N. Ireland prepare to leave. Also London is a major world financial center. That will change. Other factors such as immigration will continue as most of it is from the former colonial possessions of Britain. Jobs depending on the EU will be lost......and much much more. The poor get screwed once again and voted for something based on lies.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Just half the population unhappy with the results. Most are never happy when they lose in a vote.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)Just losing Scotland will be a Hell of a blow to the UK tax base. Also, it pretty much cedes control of the government to the Tories in perpetuity given the huge number of Labor voters in Scotland.
The Swiss have been a special case for about 600 years, and Norway, while not a member of the EU, pretty much abides by most of the rules.
Just my opinion as a person with family in the Irish Republic, Northern Ireland and Switzerland.
Denzil_DC
(7,244 posts)there are no longer a "huge number of Labor voters in Scotland", and almost certainly won't ever be again. Those days are well past.
In any case, only 2 or 3 times in the last 70 years has the way Scotland voted changed the course of a UK election: http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/ Labour has either won throughout the UK whenever it's taken power, or hasn't, except for a couple of occasions. Scotland's generally just topped up its majority.
And yes, the OP's cherry-picked examples are laughable. Norway's oil-rich and had the good sense to set up a Sovereign Wealth Fund to salt all the income away, only recently starting to dip in to it. And all is not a bed of roses there anyway.
Switzerland ... well, it's a one-off on the world stage. Wouldn't want to live there.
Iceland - interesting case. No way would the ex-imperialists be happy with such a wholesome, humble place in the world.
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)and there was big discussion re the pros and cons of joining the EU.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)is docked just 25 miles northwest of Glasgow.
Denzil_DC
(7,244 posts)
still_one
(92,251 posts)relationship with Ireland will be much more intriguing
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Norway and Switzerland aren't at risk of reigniting sectarian violence over the vote to leave. The United Kingdom leaving the EU and taking Northern Ireland with it, effectively sealing its border with the Republic of Ireland and badly upsetting the balance of power between the Protestants and Catholics, does.
Norway and Switzerland aren't about to see their country divided up with different constituent nations going their own way. The United Kingdom, facing a crisis with the aforementioned Northern Ireland and Irish reunification and the very likely possibility of a Scottish independence referendum succeeding, is.
Norway and Switzerland aren't about to see their arsenal of nuclear weapons become potentially unmanageable. If Scotland succeeds with an independence referendum, the United Kingdom will have nowhere to house its nuclear submarine fleet.
Switzerland has a long history of neutrality and relative isolation, and both the economic and political makeup of Europe has come to understand that and rely on it for stability. The United Kingdom has had an active economic, diplomatic, and military role in Europe stretching back centuries, and a sudden withdrawal from that creates a great deal of uncertainty.
Norway doesn't operate the third largest stock exchange in the world. The United Kingdom, through the London Stock Exchange Group, does.
You're comparing apples to oranges, and it reeks of astounding ignorance and desperation.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)That keeps being brought up, but it's unlikely to happen. The EU's open borders are a resuylt of the Schengen Agreement, but Ireland and Britain are ALREADY outside of the Schengen Area and their open borders have nothing to do with EU policy. Schengen has never applied within the British Isles. The open border between Ireland and the UK dates back to 1923 and is the result of the declaration of a Common Travel Area between the United Kindgom, Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. The CTA basically permits any resident of any of those areas to travel freely into other CTA areas. This agreement predates EU membership for both countries and is unaffected by the UK's decision to leave.
Could the U.K. or Ireland choose to close it? Of course, but there is no advantage to them doing so, and it would cause economic harm to both countries. While a LOT of fearmongers have brought up a closed border as a nightmare possibility for Ireland, the odds of it actually closing are very small. The most we'll likely ever see at the border are visa checkpoints, and those have been under discussion for a number of years anyway for security reasons.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)If you're upset about someone's "astounding ignorance" and desperation, you could opt to say why you feel that way. You have not.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Non-membership has been a god-send for that beacon of wealth and freedom, Bosnia.
Oops, it's not. I guess we're forced to accept that a unilateral comparison lacking relevant context is irrational and often half-witted at best.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)Check out the history of the EU
The European Union always was a CIA project, as Brexiteers discover
The Telegraph 27 4 2016
Brexiteers should have been prepared for the shattering intervention of the US. The European Union always was an American project.
It was Washington that drove European integration in the late 1940s, and funded it covertly under the Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon administrations.
While irritated at times, the US has relied on the EU ever since as the anchor to American regional interests alongside NATO...snip
...Nor are many aware of declassified documents from the State Department archives showing that US intelligence funded the European movement secretly for decades, and worked aggressively behind the scenes to push Britain into the project.
As this newspaper first reported when the treasure became available, one memorandum dated July 26, 1950, reveals a campaign to promote a full-fledged European parliament. It is signed by Gen William J Donovan, head of the American wartime Office of Strategic Services, precursor of the Central Inteligence Agency. ...more:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/04/27/the-european-union-always-was-a-cia-project-as-brexiteers-discov/
Euro-federalists financed by US spy chiefs
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Brussels 19 Sep 2000
DECLASSIFIED American government documents show that the US intelligence community ran a campaign in the Fifties and Sixties to build momentum for a united Europe. It funded and directed the European federalist movement...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1356047/Euro-federalists-financed-by-US-spy-chiefs.html
How many of the Remain voters know about this?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)
Squinch
(50,956 posts)arguments on both sides.
My conclusion is that no one knows what is going to happen now and we just have to wait and see what the ramifications actually are.
pampango
(24,692 posts)that it will be for British citizens since the UK does not belong to Schengen. It is obviously not likely is that the UK will join since Schengen any time soon, since immigration was such a big issue with Brexit supporters.
Norway follows all EU trade rules as a member of the European Economic Area. The UK's membership in the EEA was automatic as a member of the EU. Once it is out, the UK may be able to rejoin the EEA down the road but that may take time and conservative leaders in the UK may not want to rejoin it.
It is likely that a Conservative government, particularly if Boris Johnson is the new prime minister, will want to avoid the labor and environmental standards that go with the trade rules that EEA countries follow. Johnson has expressed a preference for 'free trade' without the labor and environmental requirements that come with the EEA - a "hyper-capitalist island freed from EU regulation" in Johnson's words.
That is a good question. Obviously, it can. But will it? The far-right in many other European countries have supported Brexit and are hoping to accomplish the same in their countries. At this point who knows if they will be successful. If they are the EU will indeed cease to exist.
former9thward
(32,028 posts)It is therefore very much in the EU’s interest to maintain constructive trade relations with the U.K. We’ll hear a predictable litany of intemperate comments by EU officials who have been offended by Britain’s democratic process. But calmer heads should prevail, and many of those public comments will be ignored. Many U.K. trade agreements will remain in place, or be modified slightly to accommodate its non-EU status.
pampango
(24,692 posts)really is whether the Conservative government in London wants the labor, environmental and other progressive policies that the EEA enforces among its members.
Boris Johnson among other Conservatives seem to prefer 'free trade' without the labor and environmental standards.
It will be interesting to see if the EU agrees to less progressive trade rules with the U.K. If they do the right wing rush to get out of the EU will surely accelerate.
TexasProgresive
(12,157 posts)Norway and Switzerland are like single people who never married. The UK on the other hand is in a long term marriage with lots of community property. The divorce will be messy. Now will England survive? I say England because I am not so sure about the UK. It could all fall apart, leaving England with Wales and Cornwall to be the UK. That maybe a stretch.
saidsimplesimon
(7,888 posts)Of course we can, in the short term. I'll leave the long term worries to my grandchildren. (sarcasm)
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Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Switzerland and Norway are both part of the Single Market, that comes with it terms and conditions the Brexit simpletons won't go along with. Because... FREEDUMB!
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Germany has already said the UK can only have access to the single market by paying as much as EU membership costs them now (NB that Norway's payments to the EU for that access are only slightly less per capita than the UK's) which means that all of the liabilities with none of the benefits that come from having a seat at the table.
treestar
(82,383 posts)the media having a huge fit that our economy was going to be affected one way or the other when the UK or any other country joined the EU. Yet I saw more headlines on TV today about how the Brexit affects our elections. Absurd. Gee were our elections affected when the UK joined the EU? Well the reporters of that day were not idiots like the ones we have today.
