Dallas and Baton Rouge killers were veterans. What happened

[Laura PourMeADrink]

to Trump's "I love veterans and they are being treated horribly." What about mental health treatment and availability to soldiers ??

[TexasProgresive]

1. I've posted this before

My Dad counseled Vietnam vets who were extremely angry as they became aware that they had been duped. Many had started to realize that they were not sent to the jungle to fight for our freedom. They didn't see their friends and comrades in arms die for a noble cause. Dad thought that one or more of these men would break and use their military training to attack those who lied to them.

If Dad was still with us he would be nodding his head and say, "I was right, just the wrong war." I think that the Vietnam vets were not completely disillusioned about America. There were still some pockets of loyalty and duty residing in their souls.

Now we have veterans who may have started their military career already disenchanted which was acerbated by a combination of the demeaning process of military training and being sent to fight in a senseless war. They return home trained that killing is a way to solve problems.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

2. How true and thanks for sharing!! It is always such a horrible fine line

to have to draw, too....between speaking out and hopefully stopping senseless wars in the future and exacerbating the horror/nightmares of those who put their lives on the line when they realized it was all senseless.

[smirkymonkey]

16. Thank you for sharing that. It does give us some insight as to where these

people may be coming from. I don't condone what they did, but I can't say that I don't understand - at least partially - what may have motivated them.

I think if all this violence is ever going to stop we need to understand MORE and hate LESS. I'm not getting my hopes up.

[1939]

3. Neither was a traumatized combatant

The Dallas shooter was a carpenter in a construction unit and the Baton Rouge shooter was a headquarters data clerk.

[uponit7771]

5. They were both in war zones right? tia

[Travis_0004]

8. The dallas shooter did not have a Comabt action badge

[uponit7771]

11. Does that mean he was no in a war zone? My understanding is they don't have to be in combat

... to be in a war zone.

tia

[1939]

14. I was in a war zone

Vietnam twice (67-68 and 72-73) were we had far more casualties than Iraq and Afghanistan put together.

First tour was in an Engineer construction unit (like the Dallas shooter). Combat was infrequent and episodic. We lost five dead over the course of the year, but if anyone in our unit claimed PTSD from that year, I wouldn't believe them.

Now peripheral neuropathy from Agent Orange, that I do have.

[TexasProgresive]

15. Probably not traumatized by military combat

Probably traumatized by waking each day with the sure knowledge that they are despised, held down, at risk of detention, injury of death from the people in power. After rising from sleep having examples of those thing constantly reinforced by direct action or to others like them. At the end of day guess what's running through their thoughts keeping them awake with feelings of anger, fear and wanting it to go away. Joining the military did nothing to ease this but gave training in tactics and the use of weapons.

This is how you grow garden plants. You prepare the ground, sow the seed and nurture it with cultivation and fertilizer. Then you reap what has been sown.

[smirkymonkey]

17. +1000

[1939]

19. Your experience of military service

sure doesn't equate to what I saw. The only soldiers that get despised are those that act despicable. Leaders value those who are good and willing troopers. There are plentiful opportunities for promotion and movement up the ladder. Soldiers aren't much more at risk of detention than the civilian populace. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Yes, the military can be dangerous in peacetime and there is much greater danger in wartime. Most 18-24 year old kids think of themselves as immortal and don't really dwell on the physical dangers. One of the problems of leadership is to rein them in so that they aren't reckless and don't increase the dangers to themselves.

[TexasProgresive]

22. I don't think you get where I am saying.

I assume you are not a member of a class of people who can be recognized by their appearance as of a race that is perceived by the majority as being somehow lessor. I am not. I happen to have been born in the skin of the dominant race in this country. I woke up each morning with a certain sense that I was able to walk or drive down the street without fear. I did experience the fear of cops when I was a teenager. There definitely was a prejudice against young males.

I am glad I had those experiences as it gives me a base from which I can extrapolate the live of my African American sisters and brothers and for all my sisters of any ethnicity. The last was inculcated in me by my mother who managed to make herself a place in a "Man's World."

When I was in the military I did not see any combat except the result of my fellow airmen being attacked on payday night by the civilians in town. My brothers would go to town to blow off steam and end up penniless and bleeding. I an others who prudently stayed on base would then bleed for them into a bag.

For the most part airmen of color were not the object of prejudiced by the PTB. The promotion polity of the Air Force in those days was pretty impersonal. I suppose that your immediate supervisor had a report to be made, but if you met the metrics the competition was fairly even.

It was with the fellow members of a unit where the prejudices became daily thorns to prick an irritate. Being snubbed in break room groups, perception (true or not) of being chosen for the dirty details - all this is built on a base from birth in civilian life were everything from dolls, action figures, TV shows and movies made it plain that one is less than others.

This person does not have PTSD from combat-He has lifelong Post and current tramatic stress daily. Call it PCTSD in true military and bureaucratic fashion.

From one who has lived a privileged life and wishes everyone had equal opportunities.

[uponit7771]

4. He loves certain "kinds" of veterans the others .... well, he's already been sued twice on that

[Arizona Roadrunner]

6. Do we really "debrief" from military back to civilian "life" enough?

One of the biggest questions to be asked is are we "debriefing" members of the military when they return to civilian life sufficiently? Also, we now have a "professional" army which may also provide questions about "re-entry" to civilian life especially the ones on multiple deployments. Should there be follow-up contact? Yes, it costs money and resources but guess how much it is costing by not doing a sufficient job.

[loyalsister]

20. I once talked to a veteran who missed the military

because the racism he was encountering in civilian life was such a burden. He told me he was treated better in Iraq than he was in his daily life in St. Louis, MO.

[etherealtruth]

21. Heartbreaking :-(

[malaise]

7. Great post

Rec

[MrModerate]

9. How about the fact that just about every person who's ever been in combat . . .

Ultimately suffers at least some of the symptoms of PTSD?

And isn't that a lesson that also applies to cops, who can be put into combat-like situations without a moment's warning?

[UTUSN]

10. Wingnut chickenhawks (DRUMPF,CHEENEE) - what about "Help is on the way!1" (CHEENEE, 2000)? n/t

[tiredtoo]

12. a couple of thoughts here.

First just read in the book "Tribe" PTSD is suffered more by military personal that did not see front line action than those that did.
Second didn't a government report years ago suggest we would have lone wolf shootings by ex military personal?
The right wing talking heads went ballistic over this report.

[Demonaut]

13. veterans coming back from the wars and killing people...we spoke of this years ago on DU

[mwrguy]

32. ticking time-bombs

[pinboy3niner]

33. That's a bullshit negative stereotype

You really should delete that crap reply.

[jmowreader]

18. An old post of mine about PTSD

The Veterans Administration sponsored a study of Vietnam veterans that was entitled "Legacies of Vietnam: Comparative Adjustment of Veterans and their Peers." In it was the "13 Point Combat Scale"--a tool for determining the likelihood that a veteran would eventually develop PTSD.

Here is the scale, rewritten for the Bush wars.

Combat Experience / Weight
1. Served in an artillery unit which fired on the enemy / 1 point
2. Flew over Iraq or Afghanistan in an aircraft / 1 point
3. Was stationed at a forward observation post / 1 point
4. Received incoming fire / 1 point
5. Encountered mines and boobytraps / 1 point
6. Received sniper or sapper fire / 1 point
7. Unit patrol was ambushed / 2 points
8. Engaged Iraqis/Afghanis in a firefight / 2 points
9. Saw Americans killed and/or saw Iraqis/Afghanis killed / 2 points
10. Was wounded / 2 points

The scale was called "13 point" instead of "14 point" because they decided it would be nearly impossible to get all 14 points unless you were in both the infantry and the field artillery. But in Iraq and Afghanistan, because everyone participates in patrols looking for insurgents, it would be completely possible for an artilleryman to earn all 14 points. Zero to seven points is "low combat," eight or more is "high combat."

[pinboy3niner]

23. I remember something like that being used in Vet Center intake interviews

The psychologist or counselor would ask a series of questions designed to reveal PTSD factors in the vet's war experience. It was a relatively short list of questions, but when stressors came up the interview could turn out to be very long.

When Vietnam came back up for me at the beginning of the first Gulf War, I called the Vet Center psych and and said I was in bad shape, I really needed to come in. He gave me the questionnaire orally and I was in tears and we never even finished it. In subsequent appointments with that psychologist over a period of weeks, I was in tears every time.

I had processed my Vietnam stuff years earlier so I asked him, "Doc, how many times do I have to process this shit?"

The wise man said, "As many times as it takes."

[coco77]

24. I have been wanting to post ..

this in some manner every since this happened. They always tell us to worship the military and the police no matter what.

I think they are upset that these shooters were honorably discharged it didn't fit the story line.

[UTUSN]

25. There are deranged jerks & regular jerks in all walks of life, apart from ptsd or whatever

Other external "causes"

[former9thward]

26. There are tens of millions of veterans.

Please do not smear the rest of us with the actions of tiny few who are consumed with hate for cops.

[Elmergantry]

27. Really...

How many times does one have to chant "oink oink bang bang" at "peaceful protests" before someone acts on it?

[pinboy3niner]

29. And among vets diagnosed with PTSD, extremely few are involved in gun violence

And the majority of those few use a firearm only to end their own lives.

R.I.P. to absent friends.

[elleng]

28. We have been treating Vets horribly for some time,

and apparently not improving much.

I've hoped that Martin O'Malley would get the job of head of the Department of Veterans Affairs as he's such a good administrator.

[MFM008]

30. its how the WAR thing worked out for people

[craigmatic]

31. They realized the hypocracy of going overseas to fight for the safety of a country where

people who looked like them were not safe in their own neighborhoods.