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AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
Fri Aug 26, 2016, 11:54 PM Aug 2016

BOYS FROM 70 DIFFERENT SCHOOLS CREATE MASSIVE PORN-SHARING GROUP USING NUDES OF GIRLS AT SCHOOL

Last edited Sun Aug 28, 2016, 01:28 PM - Edit history (1)

More than 70 Australian schools are targets for a perverse pornography ring of teen boys and young men secretly swapping and exchanging graphic sexual images of female students and other non-consenting women.

News.com.au reports that more than 2,000 images have been posted or traded by Australian members since the group began operating in December last year.

A Sick, Degrading Game

Here’s how it works: young men use the site to nominate the specific high school or region they are phishing for nude photos from, along with the full names of girls they are “hunting”. Hundreds of individual names have appeared on “wanted” lists, including the names of sisters and entire high school friendship circles.

Once a girl’s name appears on a list, other members of the group then “contribute” by posting identifying information about the intended victim, such as her full name, face, school, home address, and phone number, along with directives like, “Go get her boys!” Any “wins” (the term used for the nude photos) of the nominated target are then uploaded or offered in exchange for a trade. Some targets are so sought after that “bounties” have been offered for any user who can post a “win”.

In one case, one user offered to trade up to 300 nude images of other victims, in exchange for a single nude photo of the one girl he was currently tracking. Another user said he had been trying to unearth nude images of a particular victim for more than five years. One of Sydney’s most elite schools is among the 70 targeted.

Here are just a few of the thousands of comments from the site (with names changed):

“Anyone have any Birmingham wins?”

“Anyone have any St. Claire 12th grader wins?”

“I’ve got heaps of Miami High girls. Kik me if you wanna trade!”

“I ripped these from a computer I was asked to fix a few years ago.”

“Who has nudes of this b****? I hear she throws them around!”

“I’ll upload all the nudes I have if people start looking for Hunter Valley, Newcastle or Port Macquarie girls, or any hot s****”.

“I’m posting pretty much all the hottest little teens I have. All high quality images from Maitland, Newcastle, Cessnock, Rutherford etc.”

“I have a fair few of ***** ****** including a few *** shots of her.”

“What do you want for the **** * wins, bro?”

“I’ll pay good money to see the rig under **** *******, anyone have any of her?”

“Let’s make this huge!”

Thousands Of Images Uploaded

So far thousands of explicit, nude images of teen girls and young women have been uploaded or traded on the swap-meet site. Some high school girls are pictured performing sexual acts while wearing their school uniform. Other images on the site include graphic close-ups of victim’s genitalia and bodies, and photos of young women engaged in sexual acts.

The site has been reported numerous times to police for child pornography, but so far they say they are unable to act because the site is hosted overseas.

Since its creation, multiple victims have also posted on the site, pleading with the young men to remove their images. Their requests are mostly ignored, laughed at, or in some cases, men retaliate by calling on their “bros” to unearth and upload even more images of the victim.

One young woman who begged for images of her friend to be removed, then had her own name added to the wanted hit-list as punishment. Another young woman who stated that some of the victims might be “suicidal” was told that it was her fault for behaving like a “slut”, and that her images now belonged to the internet.

Most victims, however, appear to have no idea they are even on the site. Users of the site have deliberately tried to conceal their activities from victims by writing the names of targets in a simple code which prevents the girls from searching their own names. Ellie, for example, might be written as 3ll13, or Amanda as @m@nd@.

School names are also written in code to prevent high schools from detecting that their students are being targeted. Yet a review of the site has found that at least 70 Australian school names have been mentioned by users requesting “wins” of current or recently graduated students.

The site also encourages users to post their “wins” based on location, so that men and boys can study nude images of girls and women who they might know in real life.

Girls Treated Like Less Than Human

The discovery of the website follows a number of recent related scandals involving students at junior highs in Melbourne.
Sharna Bremner from End Rape on Campus says she felt “physically sick when [she] learned of the website and its contents”.

“These boys and men are behaving like a pack of hyenas hunting their prey, and then sharing the spoils with the rest of the group,” she said.

“They’re reducing girls to objects and trophies to be traded like nothing more than swap-cards in the playground”.
Ms. Bremner says that charges should be laid against those responsible and that the mentality of these men closely mirrors that of a rapist.

“There are already plenty of consensual adult nude images online that are easily accessible. But these boys and men are not interested in that, because it’s not the nudity alone that they are after,” she said. “What they are getting off on is the very fact that these images are not consensual and that the victims have no idea they are being exploited.”

Ms. Bremner also notes that the users are not searching or categorizing the images based on particular physical preferences or fetishes, “They are hunting women and girls who live in their area and sorting them according to geography. It’s the idea of proximity and accessibility that is considered arousing. The thrill is not just that they might see the girl who sits next to them in maths class, it’s also that they can put in an order for the girl from maths class. What these boys are really getting off on is the sense of power they feel over these girls, and the idea that they can own and obtain them like objects.”

Ms. Bremner says that she can “absolutely see this [website] leading to acquaintance rape.”

“If you’re a young guy who has been told by your peers that getting images without consent is a good thing, that it gets you pats on the back, then just imagine the accolades you’ll get for physically taking advantage of a girl. This group doesn’t just normalize the idea that consent is irrelevant and doesn’t matter, it actively encourages boys to ignore and violate consent.”
Police are encouraging any victims to come forward and report it.

Stories like this are why we fight porn. The rise of porn culture in our generation is the reason for the popularity and normalization of the concerning attitudes reflected in this article. We cannot be okay with anyone being evaluated for parts and bartered around, like this sick and degrading hobby. Not only is this completely appalling, it’s also a serious crime. At least in the U.S., possessing, distributing, or receiving a pornographic image of someone under the age of 18 is a federal offense, punishable by up to 15 to 30 years in prison. And yet, with the rise in porn, illegal and completely disgusting games like these are only increasing in popularity.

Time to drop some statistics. At least 40% of today’s teens are involved in sending and receiving sexually suggestive messages through the use of those nifty little cellular devices that we’re all constantly glued to. More than 22% of teen girls report sending semi-nude or nude pics and 18% of boys have as well. About 17% of sexters share the messages they receive with another person, and 55% of those share them with multiple people.

Bottom line: our generation is sexting a lot, which isn’t healthy. For a lot of guys and girls growing up today, there seems to be a never-ending flood of orders for a pic minus the clothes. But even aside from the sexted images involved in this sick porn ring, there are also images of girls who have no idea that they’ve been violated or photographed. This is also completely disturbing.

Porn is influencing an entire generation that people are sex objects that should be exploited and degraded. In fact, when it comes to this group, though we can’t prove it for certain, we’re convinced that porn culture has influenced these males that consent doesn’t matter, and “hunting” for sexual images of someone they know is a game to play. Where else would this type of behavior be celebrated? Only in the world of porn is lack of consent considered sexy.

http://fightthenewdrug.org/boys-from-70-different-schools-create-massive-porn-sharing-group-using-nudes-of-girls-at-school/

To add: clearly, this touched a nerve with some people on the banning of pornography in general. I personally, don't care. What I do care about is the pedophilia. THAT, I care A LOT about. The fact that these girls are hunted like this is heinous and criminal and it reiterates the glaring need to educate both our young boys and girls about the dangers of sexting and taking nude photos of yourself. As the law for sexting and minors differs from state to state, here is a great link to educate ourselves and our loved ones.

http://www.roanokecriminalattorney.com/sexting-child-pornography-laws-united-states/

131 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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BOYS FROM 70 DIFFERENT SCHOOLS CREATE MASSIVE PORN-SHARING GROUP USING NUDES OF GIRLS AT SCHOOL (Original Post) AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 OP
perverts.... chillfactor Aug 2016 #1
The way these boys are thinking about girls milestogo Aug 2016 #2
As a young millenial male forjusticethunders Aug 2016 #6
So why do you think young men are seeing women's bodies AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #11
Well, it's different in different places. forjusticethunders Aug 2016 #17
Thanks for your input. I don't have cable TV so I think I miss out on AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #19
+1000 smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #22
Young men and boys Ms. Yertle Aug 2016 #27
Ive nailed this into my daughters head since she was 11 Separation Aug 2016 #85
Same here with oldest who is now 22. I have to do it again with my 17 month old. stevenleser Aug 2016 #89
I'm seriously glad there was no I-net Ms. Yertle Aug 2016 #101
Why? Becuase girls have "something" that boys want - and that differential creates POWER. jonno99 Aug 2016 #129
I rememeber reading an article saying that our generation is even MORE sexist that Boomers... Odin2005 Aug 2016 #106
No, they have not changed and that is really disconcerting to me. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #7
Western culture? EL34x4 Aug 2016 #24
True, but this story is about something in Australia milestogo Aug 2016 #32
Fight the New Drug is a Mormon anti-porn website. LeftyMom Aug 2016 #3
Post removed Post removed Aug 2016 #4
what the fuck forjusticethunders Aug 2016 #5
Seconded. white_wolf Aug 2016 #8
Seriously? Glamrock Aug 2016 #9
I suspect few of those pics from women they don't know are from the woman in the picture mythology Aug 2016 #26
This!!! AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #73
A man I worked with told me that women lack self respect milestogo Aug 2016 #33
Adolescents are very susceptible to peer pressure AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #70
I second the WTF. You know who is responsible for rape? Rapists. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #10
Victims my ass. Glamrock Aug 2016 #13
1 guy in the article states that he stole them off a computer he was working on. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #14
Once again, Glamrock Aug 2016 #15
Anthony winner is an adult. He should know better. These are minors. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #16
That's a fair argument. Glamrock Aug 2016 #18
Boys who are minors are not held above the law when it comes to possession AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #21
It doesn't go both ways treestar Aug 2016 #30
I don't know about rare Glamrock Aug 2016 #46
They are strangers or their girlfriends? treestar Aug 2016 #48
My guys (late teens, early 20's, still date h.s. girls) Glamrock Aug 2016 #50
It's a one-way street, regardless of your justifications. One action is lawful the other not. LanternWaste Aug 2016 #103
Did these adolescent girls take and send the pictures? Orrex Aug 2016 #74
You're absolutely right about that. I didn't get that from the article, though. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #75
Not to diminish the disgusting behavior of the boys, of course Orrex Aug 2016 #76
Really? I grew up in the 80's too. Why do you say that? This is interesting. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #77
I can only tell you from my own experience Orrex Aug 2016 #78
Thanks & I agree. I think same thing would have happened.Just different generation. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #79
But by saying that, you've negated the entire premise of the oped you reproduced in full, in your OP Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #83
Your lack of compassion is noted. smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #23
Um, yeah, unless they're the ones scoring "wins" with the child porn site, they are 100% innocent synergie Aug 2016 #119
So you believe the girls behavior is acceptable. Glamrock Aug 2016 #53
Victim blaming sucks! MineralMan Aug 2016 #31
This and subsequent comments all rely on your assertion that: KittyWampus Aug 2016 #35
While I think it's probably good advice to encourage girls or boys to NOT take and send such photos PersonNumber503602 Aug 2016 #63
Victim-blaming crap, disgusting! Odin2005 Aug 2016 #107
Sick Liberal_in_LA Aug 2016 #12
Never mind Egnever Aug 2016 #20
Miserable little shits. smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #25
Good luck going after porn in general The2ndWheel Aug 2016 #28
No one is going after porn in general. I don't give a shits about porn and consenting adults AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #41
"Stories like this are why we fight porn." The2ndWheel Aug 2016 #47
I explained to my daughters that any nude sent will end up online FLPanhandle Aug 2016 #29
Exactly! Big take home point. I hope every young girl is taught this sort of danger AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #34
Hopefully the parents of sons are telling them that treating women like this is immoral, criminal an redwitch Aug 2016 #84
Agreed. But hopefully too, parents will tell their daughters not take nude photos of themselves jonno99 Aug 2016 #130
+1 NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #110
deleted zonkers Aug 2016 #36
Industrious and these assholes should not be in the same sentence. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #37
It's nice that you think that those who produce child porn and hunt down girls in their classes synergie Aug 2016 #126
deleted zonkers Aug 2016 #127
If you could tone down the poutrage and take a look at what some people are posting synergie Aug 2016 #131
Oh great....another "ban porn" thread on a progressive forum.... davidn3600 Aug 2016 #38
Did you read the article? This is not a ban porn thread. This is about pornography AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #39
I did. davidn3600 Aug 2016 #40
I agree that banning porn won't fix the problem. I am not entirely AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #44
This is a ban porn thread WestCoastLib Aug 2016 #45
This story is going to be reported treestar Aug 2016 #49
If it's going to be reported, then OP should be able to find a source that isn't a religious right Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #52
Obviously, making an argument that porn has harmful prayin4rain Aug 2016 #55
My dad died of lung cancer, thanks. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #56
Thanks? ? prayin4rain Aug 2016 #57
Gambling or guns. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #59
I wasn't comparing porn to gambling, guns or cigarettes. prayin4rain Aug 2016 #67
Because there IS no evidence of "the negative effect of porn"; except from agenda-laden religious Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #81
Yeah, that's just not accurate. prayin4rain Aug 2016 #86
As Amanda Marcotte put it, that's not really "addiction". Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #87
I responded to a poster prayin4rain Aug 2016 #88
One of those studies isn't about porn, but sexual behavior in general. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #90
Well, if you read the sites FAQ prayin4rain Aug 2016 #91
Like I said, I'm sure people do all sorts of things compulsively. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #92
Like gambling is not our business. prayin4rain Aug 2016 #93
And the same people going on about the "harm" of consenting adult porn in the OP Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #94
Well, this prayin4rain Aug 2016 #95
Well I think that most people probably react a bit peevishly when people try to tell them how they Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #96
Yeah, but I wouldn't take a study prayin4rain Aug 2016 #97
We should remember, again, how we got here in this thread in the first place. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #99
Commercial speech is only entitled to limited protection prayin4rain Aug 2016 #108
Maybe you haven't been on the internet much lately? Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #111
The Dworkinist school of thought is still strong in many corners. NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #112
And by all means, Lets have that discussion, too. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #114
In fact, they've gone down. NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #115
La la la la la Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #117
Haha, prayin4rain Aug 2016 #122
"Hell, I even take issue with seat belt laws for adults." NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #123
I recently traded in my ten year old car prayin4rain Aug 2016 #124
Perfectly logical argument. smirkymonkey Aug 2016 #102
If you want to have a discussion about the "harm" of pot smoking, dont try and do it Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #113
Must be frustrating to realize people have opinions different than your own. LanternWaste Aug 2016 #104
Ban all cameras! GOLGO 13 Aug 2016 #42
Quit blaming victims. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #43
"fightthenewdrug" (and how did fighting the old ones work out?) is a religious right anti-porn org Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #51
If you click the link you'll find this: synergie Aug 2016 #128
I have no words that can accurately convey the DISGUST I'm now feeling ... NurseJackie Aug 2016 #54
The OP links to a religious right Mormon anti-porn org Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #60
It is in all caps because I copied and pasted & didn't want to type it all out again. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #62
I can only imagine you didn't read the article you posted. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #66
It wasn't 10% & I did read the article. Clearly, you have an issue with pornography AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #68
You posted a link to a religious right group, and you can't figure out why people call that out? Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #80
You can believe what you want about me. I don't care if this website is all about hating porn AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #98
Certainly the people involved in this story have broken those laws, & should likely face prosecution Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #100
It's still paedophilia. It's not suddenly acceptable simply because RWers disapprove. NurseJackie Aug 2016 #64
Nice try, but no. No one is calling what was done "acceptable". Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #65
This is so disturbing on so many levels. Initech Aug 2016 #58
It all adds up to one truth: children can't handle tech responsibly. lindysalsagal Aug 2016 #61
Why change the names? Expose these assholes! Initech Aug 2016 #69
Didn't they have a previous case like this 3-4 years ago? Blue_Tires Aug 2016 #71
Did they? This is the first I have heard of something like this. AgadorSparticus Aug 2016 #72
That was New Zealand obamanut2012 Aug 2016 #116
ok... i remember now... Blue_Tires Aug 2016 #121
You are correct that, with teens, technology presents a whole new minefield of potential problems. Warren DeMontague Aug 2016 #82
This is horrifying. Odin2005 Aug 2016 #105
Letting someone take nude photos of you is idiotic. NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #109
Engaging in dehumanizing child porn, where you admit you steal things from people's computers synergie Aug 2016 #118
Child porn and stealing from someone's computer is illegal. NaturalHigh Aug 2016 #120
And making assumptions that's what ANY of these girls did with ZERO evidence, and actual synergie Aug 2016 #125

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
2. The way these boys are thinking about girls
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 12:28 AM
Aug 2016

reflects something deep in Western culture: the objectification of women. Things have not changed.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
6. As a young millenial male
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:48 AM
Aug 2016

It runs deep. Very very deep. This is a huge reason for the massive anti-feminist/social justice backlash we're seeing (and this goes beyond any perceived or actual excesses of the movement) - it strikes very deep at something that our media and culture sees as an an entitlement, namely, access to women's bodies for sexual purposes, particularly as a means of proving masculinity and manhood. Also it's not JUST the West.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
11. So why do you think young men are seeing women's bodies
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:02 AM
Aug 2016

As objects that they are entitled to? I am a little surprised (& maybe a little scared) to hear you say it runs so deep in our society.

 

forjusticethunders

(1,151 posts)
17. Well, it's different in different places.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:52 AM
Aug 2016

Part of is the media, especially media that people below 18 shouldn't have access to. And not just porn, it's shit like MTV, advertising and sitcoms that establish in young adolescent males that girls are just there for sex. It also gets passed down from older boys and men, even fathers/uncles. Unfettered access to the internet (and not outright condemning it, it has major upsides especially for say, LGBT youth in unaccepting homes aka nearly all of them) plays a major role as well. Finally our culture shames boys and men for not having sex to a great degree, and this shaming hits when their minds are most impressionable, WHILE surrounding them with all this sexual imagery. Then throw into the mix the shameful lack of real sex education in this country, and the refusal of parents to talk about proper sexual behavior (assuming they aren't quietly encouraging it) and that's the situation you have.

Of course, the article is talking about Australia but I refer to this country because it's WORSE here (though keep in mind how much US media and culture influences the rest of the English speaking world)

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
19. Thanks for your input. I don't have cable TV so I think I miss out on
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:07 AM
Aug 2016

Quite a bit of social machinations. But I can see that pressure to "score" and how that ties in with masculinity.

What you said reminds me of the father of that Stanford rapist who defended his son my saying he was just trying to get some action. Smh.. .

Ms. Yertle

(466 posts)
27. Young men and boys
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 08:17 AM
Aug 2016

have ALWAYS been interested in seeing naked women. That hasn't changed. What's changed is the availability of naked women pics. Internet, phones, etc.

Also--after all the horror stories about broken relationships, "revenge porn," etc., WHY would a girl even have naked pics of herself, let alone send them to anyone?? Maybe there was a time when "I never thought they'd end up in the wrong hands" might have been an excuse. Not anymore. Relationships are temporary, but the Internet is forever, and everyone knows it.

Separation

(1,975 posts)
85. Ive nailed this into my daughters head since she was 11
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 06:43 PM
Aug 2016

When she was 16 I even showed her a website that posts pictures of revenge porn. I told her that boys will tell her anything and promise the moon to get what they want. She is now 20 and thankfully has not had to deal with any type of bullshit.

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
89. Same here with oldest who is now 22. I have to do it again with my 17 month old.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 11:20 PM
Aug 2016

The thought that either might have to deal with this is horrifying.

Ms. Yertle

(466 posts)
101. I'm seriously glad there was no I-net
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 07:12 AM
Aug 2016

when I was a kid. Between the bullying and all the stupid things kids do to themselves . . .

Glad your daughter hasn't had to deal with this type of stuff. Unfortunately, not all parents are on top of stuff like this.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
129. Why? Becuase girls have "something" that boys want - and that differential creates POWER.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 05:32 PM
Aug 2016

Same as it ever was...

Odin2005

(53,521 posts)
106. I rememeber reading an article saying that our generation is even MORE sexist that Boomers...
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 08:45 AM
Aug 2016

...in certain areas, especially the STEM fields.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
7. No, they have not changed and that is really disconcerting to me.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:49 AM
Aug 2016

We have a long ways to go and it doesn't help to have someone like Trump be a presidential candidate. Kids are looking up to him and he is just vile.

 

EL34x4

(2,003 posts)
24. Western culture?
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 07:06 AM
Aug 2016

I'm pretty sure that treating women as sexual objects has existed in every culture.

LeftyMom

(49,212 posts)
3. Fight the New Drug is a Mormon anti-porn website.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:15 AM
Aug 2016

The fact of the matter is that a bunch of pedophile old men who hold "interviews" with teenagers where they ask them about their masturbatory habits are really in no position to combat the problem of rape culture because they have no blessed idea about how boundaries or consent work.

Response to AgadorSparticus (Original post)

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
9. Seriously?
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:55 AM
Aug 2016

I work with some twenty year olds. They are constantly getting nude pics from girls they haven't met in person. As I said the boys behavior is repulsive, but the girls behavior is also a contributing factor. Period. No pics, no pic trading.

milestogo

(16,829 posts)
33. A man I worked with told me that women lack self respect
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:18 AM
Aug 2016

because they all post naked pics of themselves on snapchat. I think he's exaggerating, but I get the point that some women do this. And if they are teenagers its really sad because they aren't mature enough to understand the consequences.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
70. Adolescents are very susceptible to peer pressure
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 12:50 PM
Aug 2016

And they don't have the maturity and skills to navigate through this alone. They are handicapped by their age and hormones. I can see their boyfriends pressuring them and they eventually give in because they think their world will end if so and so doesn't "love" them anymore. So then they send the pictures. 3 months later, they break up. The boy now sends these photos to everyone and their dog because he is a jackass.

These arguments that girls do this b/c they are sluts just sickens me. The victim blaming is unbelievable here.

To add: I'm sorry, I am not blaming you or saying you said any of those things. I am just saying it generally.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
10. I second the WTF. You know who is responsible for rape? Rapists.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:57 AM
Aug 2016

Not the makeup women wear, or their short skirts, or any other bullshit excuse to blame the victim.

You know who is responsible for this vile behavior of trading naked photos of girls? The asshole males that are doing it. Not their victims.

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
13. Victims my ass.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:13 AM
Aug 2016

A) We aren't talking about rape
B) I am not defending the behavior of these boys. As I said it's repulsive. I've never shared pics I've gotten with other people. However, to pretend as if these girls are completely innocent is ridiculous. If you think otherwise, you aren't around this generation. As I stated earlier, girls today send nude pics to boys they haven't even met. I'm sorry. You can call me every name in the book. If you are sending nude pics to men you aren't in a relationship with, you aren't a victim..you're an idiot.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
14. 1 guy in the article states that he stole them off a computer he was working on.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:26 AM
Aug 2016

Some are obtaining these pictures illegally and dispersing them without consent.

What about scorned lovers? What if they post pictures? I'm not saying that girls should be sending nude pictures to men they don't know, but I doubt anyone ever thought something like this would be happening in this day and age.

These young girls are not young adults. They are adolescents and there are laws about pedophilia.

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
15. Once again,
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:35 AM
Aug 2016

I'm not defending the behavior of these boys. All I'm saying is that to expect privacy when sending pics to people you aren't in a relationship with is asking for trouble. If I remember correctly, most of the threads dealing with Anthony Weiner's "faux pas" were along the "he's an idiot. He should have never expected privacy" vain.

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
18. That's a fair argument.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:59 AM
Aug 2016

Unfortunately, it goes both ways. These are not adult men...

Again, I'm not defending their behavior. I'm just trying to point our that it's a two way street.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
21. Boys who are minors are not held above the law when it comes to possession
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:27 AM
Aug 2016

distribution, or transmission of pornographic pictures of minors. In CT, 3 boys were charged and arrested for doing exactly this.

Here is an article on that:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/27/us/connecticut-high-school-sexting-ring/

Anytime you put underage and naked in the same sentence, big red alarms should be going off. The law is not very forgiving and young boys need to be taught not to play with fire.

I want to say, there is even a law on right to privacy as well as copyright. Copyright may not be the right legal term, but you can't distribute pictures of someone else without their consent.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
30. It doesn't go both ways
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 08:53 AM
Aug 2016

You're blaming the victim, pure and simple. If there are girls who send nude photos to strangers, they are likely extremely rare. And not likely to mind the photo going viral.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
48. They are strangers or their girlfriends?
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:30 PM
Aug 2016

If it is their girlfriends then it in not so nice to send them any farther, even in event of breakup done by her in a way he does not consider kind.

Strangers who do that obviously don't care.

Even someone they just seduced for a one night stand, not such a nice thing to do. Poor young girls these days. And these are high school girls, which is another thought.

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
50. My guys (late teens, early 20's, still date h.s. girls)
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:47 PM
Aug 2016

get pics all the time from girls they don't know. It takes a couple days of flirting via instagram or whatever. None of them have serious girlfriends, so I don't know if they would share those.

Back in my early twenties I kinda dated a girl that posed nude for photography classes. She wouldn't give me a pic for anything! She didn't want to trust me or any other guy with personal pictures. And believe me (good God I sound like trump), the only person who would have seen them is my wife. But, if I don't have a picture, I can't show it to anyone.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
103. It's a one-way street, regardless of your justifications. One action is lawful the other not.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 08:35 AM
Aug 2016

It's a one-way street, regardless of your justifications. One action is lawful the other not. It takes very little rational thought to reach that conclusions. I'm confident you'll get there.

Orrex

(63,172 posts)
74. Did these adolescent girls take and send the pictures?
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 02:01 PM
Aug 2016

If so, does that not qualify as producing and distributing child pornography? Many states criminalize exactly that behavior, for exmple.


AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
75. You're absolutely right about that. I didn't get that from the article, though.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 02:09 PM
Aug 2016

It seems like a group of guys got together and bartered and traded for nude pictures of underaged girls without their consent. And actually go after certain girls with different bounties.

Thanks for posting that link.

Orrex

(63,172 posts)
76. Not to diminish the disgusting behavior of the boys, of course
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 02:22 PM
Aug 2016

The only thing I can say about it is that my generation would absolutely have done the same if the technology had existed in the 80s.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
77. Really? I grew up in the 80's too. Why do you say that? This is interesting.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 02:54 PM
Aug 2016

I am surprised to hear this of our generation. But then again, I grew up in a sheltered life....

Did you see forjusticethunder's post upthread? He is a millennial and his post was quite insightful on this matter.

Orrex

(63,172 posts)
78. I can only tell you from my own experience
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 03:02 PM
Aug 2016

One girl took a Polaroid of herself (the height of "selfie" technology at the time) and gave it to her boyfriend. Thereafter, pretty much everybody saw it. And that was with a single hardcopy original.

If that same crew had had access to Snapchat and Instagram? They would absolutely have distributed pics. Hell, we all copied our Commodore 64 games as fast as we could manage, even by a face-to-face exchange process.

I can't say that they'd have built the kind of a network as in the current story, but nothing can convince me that it wouldn't otherwise have happened more or less the same.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
83. But by saying that, you've negated the entire premise of the oped you reproduced in full, in your OP
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 05:34 PM
Aug 2016

...."fightthenewdrug" is asserting that societal pornification is responsible for this behavior, full stop, period. They make this assertion with no evidence (even, at one point, acknowledging as much) because that is the raison d'etre of their religious right organization.

Rather than appending the OP you posted (despite, really, violating DU's 4 paragraph copyright rule to bring the whole screed in full here), the entire gist of which is "we must fight the dread evil of consenting adult pornography" with a disclaimer that you don't actually care about consenting adult pornography... my humble suggestion is that you should remove the opinion piece and fix it with a link to the story which doesn't go through the religious right agenda-driving godbaggers.

http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/real-life/news-life/students-from-70-australian-schools-targeted-by-sick-pornography-ring/news-story/53288536e0ce3bba7955e92c7f7fa8da

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
119. Um, yeah, unless they're the ones scoring "wins" with the child porn site, they are 100% innocent
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:48 PM
Aug 2016

Honestly, what's wrong with you?

I'm sorry, but blaming victims for having images stolen from them is truly reprehensible and only misogynistic psychos who think women are never innocent when they're obviously victimized are idiots here.

You seem like you need to see this, if only to attempt to educate you to realize just how much of the problem you and those who share you nasty views truly are here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028130675

Glamrock

(11,787 posts)
53. So you believe the girls behavior is acceptable.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 04:12 PM
Aug 2016

I don't. If it was my daughter, I would #1, press charges against the boys. #2, I would tell my daughter that that behavior is absolutely unacceptable. You don't send pictures of yourself online. There is no assumption of privacy. Period. To assume so in this day and age is assinine. I would tell her that actions have consequences. I would tell her that, while she should be able to share these pictures privately with whom she pleases, the reality of the world is a much different thing. And I would be amazed that my daughter, who sees celebrities' nude photos being hacked and distributed on a pretty regular basis, would expect her photos to remain private.

As far as the rape analogy goes, I hope you aren't putting words in mouth. I view someone violating you physically because of the way you are dressed as a completely different issue than willfully sending photos via the internet.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
35. This and subsequent comments all rely on your assertion that:
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:18 AM
Aug 2016

girls are sending these pix
girls are sending these pix TO PEOPLE THEY DON"T EVEN KNOW

Your anecdotal observation isn't worth much. I think there's a very small number of girls sending naked pix of themselves to people they don't know.

PersonNumber503602

(1,134 posts)
63. While I think it's probably good advice to encourage girls or boys to NOT take and send such photos
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:07 PM
Aug 2016

Your post comes off as victim blaming more than anything, or at least holding them as equally at fault.

We also can't even say for sure that all of the girls even willingly had the photos taken. Given the nature of the site, it sounds ripe for encouraging people to get such photos by any means possible. But even if they themselves sent it to someone, that still doesn't give the recipient the right to share it with others without permission.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
25. Miserable little shits.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 07:53 AM
Aug 2016

Who will no doubt grow up to be men who rape, abuse and otherwise disrespect women.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
41. No one is going after porn in general. I don't give a shits about porn and consenting adults
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 12:38 PM
Aug 2016

I DO, however, give two shits about pornography and the hunting of adolescent girls. This shit would not fly in the U.S. Australia needs to get it together and come down like a hammer on this.

The2ndWheel

(7,947 posts)
47. "Stories like this are why we fight porn."
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 02:56 PM
Aug 2016

Whoever the we is in that sentence from the article is what I was commenting on.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
29. I explained to my daughters that any nude sent will end up online
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 08:41 AM
Aug 2016

Do not think a private pic will remain private no matter how many promises are made, it won't be. Period.



redwitch

(14,941 posts)
84. Hopefully the parents of sons are telling them that treating women like this is immoral, criminal an
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 05:44 PM
Aug 2016

And that if they do it they will regret it.

jonno99

(2,620 posts)
130. Agreed. But hopefully too, parents will tell their daughters not take nude photos of themselves
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 06:03 PM
Aug 2016

unless they are prepared to have them spread all over the internet (remember the hacker who broke into to the iCloud server and stole all those photos a few years back?).

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
126. It's nice that you think that those who produce child porn and hunt down girls in their classes
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 05:26 PM
Aug 2016

to dehumanize and abuse are such "industrious young lads", is that a term you use for those gentleman whose college experiences would be harmed if they were to serve time for the documented rapes as well?

It's the casual misogyny that proves just how pervasive the rape culture truly is in this society.

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
131. If you could tone down the poutrage and take a look at what some people are posting
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 08:03 PM
Aug 2016

you might understand that your failure to indicate sarcasm was indeed a grave mistake here.

There are many here who are busy blaming the victims, the misogyny runs deep, even on this progressive site, so tone down that 4 alarm, all caps silliness and understand how you blended in with the creeps commenting on this story, and why you can't just assume that your sarcasm will be distinguished from the earnest idiocy.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
38. Oh great....another "ban porn" thread on a progressive forum....
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 12:14 PM
Aug 2016


To be clear....
Posting nude photos of someone without consent or not of legal age is a legit issue to be concerned about.

But porn where everyone is legal age and everyone is fully consenting is none of the government's fucking business. And it's not anyone elses business either. Yet this article trying very, very hard to link the two issues.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
39. Did you read the article? This is not a ban porn thread. This is about pornography
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 12:25 PM
Aug 2016

And the illegal use of pictures without people's consent. It goes a step further and shows the hunting of these girls in Australia. I don't give a shit about porn and consenting adults. Read the article.

 

davidn3600

(6,342 posts)
40. I did.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 12:37 PM
Aug 2016
Stories like this are why we fight porn. The rise of porn culture in our generation is the reason for the popularity and normalization of the concerning attitudes reflected in this article. We cannot be okay with anyone being evaluated for parts and bartered around, like this sick and degrading hobby. Not only is this completely appalling, it’s also a serious crime. At least in the U.S., possessing, distributing, or receiving a pornographic image of someone under the age of 18 is a federal offense, punishable by up to 15 to 30 years in prison. And yet, with the rise in porn, illegal and completely disgusting games like these are only increasing in popularity.
-----
Porn is influencing an entire generation that people are sex objects that should be exploited and degraded. In fact, when it comes to this group, though we can’t prove it for certain, we’re convinced that porn culture has influenced these males that consent doesn’t matter, and “hunting” for sexual images of someone they know is a game to play. Where else would this type of behavior be celebrated? Only in the world of porn is lack of consent considered sexy.

So wrong.


The article is linking this behavior of the boys to an overall general "porn culture" and lumping it all together.

The vast majority of people out there who watch porn are only interested in consensual activities. Those who are looking for non-consensual stuff have much deeper and troubling issues going on upstairs. And banning porn isn't going to fix those issues.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
44. I agree that banning porn won't fix the problem. I am not entirely
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:03 PM
Aug 2016

Convinced that porn doesn't contribute to the objectification of women. But that is neither here nor there and meant for a different discussion. But porn is a big umbrella. You have from very mild to pretty deviant and deranged stuff. Like yousaid, there's some serious stuff going on upstairs if people get off on the nonscentual stuff. That stuff needs to be banned. But I never suggested banning porn in general. I don't think banning will fix it either. But pedophilia is never ok. That shit needs to be nipped in the bud. Zero tolerance.

I posted this article because I am appalled at the hunting of girls---not women--- in this manner. The illegal nonconsenting use of pornographic material is currently going unchecked. I have a problem with this. Australia needs to get their shit together. Here, in the U.S., this shit would absolutely not fly. This is why I posted this and we need to educate young girls about these dangers. Adolescence is hard enough when you don't have all the tools to work with and are thrust into the sucking hole of peer pressure. We need to protect our girls with education and with laws that don't allow thus sort of hunting to occur.

WestCoastLib

(442 posts)
45. This is a ban porn thread
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 01:17 PM
Aug 2016

Sorry, but it's in the article and it's also clear by looking at the source.

This is a "ban porn" story, plain and simple, despite the fact of the illegal acts taking place here. This is the exact same as How right wing sites post stories about illegal immigrants commiting rape is an anti-immigration story.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
49. This story is going to be reported
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 03:35 PM
Aug 2016

and discussed even if you think it will have the deleterious effect of people wanting to get rid of porn in some way. In this country is can't be done anyway (don't know about Australia). Except for minors, which these kids are.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
52. If it's going to be reported, then OP should be able to find a source that isn't a religious right
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 04:11 PM
Aug 2016

organization with an agenda that dovetails with a plank in the Republican Party platform, no?



prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
55. Obviously, making an argument that porn has harmful
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 04:56 PM
Aug 2016

effects and calling to ban porn are two different things. Nobody freaks out and acts like people are trying to make cigarettes illegal everytime an article about their harmful effects is posted.

Fighting smoking and fighting porn is not necessarily a call to ban or make illegal.

If you disagree that porn has harmful societal effects or don't care , great, carry on. I smoked for years after the big push to get everyone to stop smoking.

On edit: I'm not vouching for the source or the correlation, just saying I don't see a call in the article to BAN porn.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
56. My dad died of lung cancer, thanks.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 05:39 PM
Aug 2016

I highly doubt masturbating to Hustler for 30 years would have killed him in such a gruesome fashion.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
57. Thanks? ?
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 05:49 PM
Aug 2016

You think my post was a slight against you or your dad?
If so, I certainly apologize.

I'll change the analogy to gambling or guns.

Not every article making an argument about the harmful effects of gambling or guns is a call to ban those items.

People often discuss their ideas and views that certain things are harmful, without asking that they be banned.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
59. Gambling or guns.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:10 PM
Aug 2016

Well, I'm not aware of anyone walking into an elementary school and killing 20 first graders with a craps table, or a DVD of Rocco does Prague, either.

I think if we want to have a rational discussion about real-world harmfulness we should distinguish between behaviors which some may find morally objectionable or even that, in the case of gambling, some may engage in compulsively to the detriment of themselves- and things which actively kill and cause physical harm, like guns ... or cigarette smoking.

I tend to fall on the 'consenting adults should be free to choose' in most situations regardless, although certainly with guns there is room for increased regulation.

But we should not pretend the situations are somehow analogous- and the fact is that the only people making hyperbolic claims about the 'harm' of consenting adult porn are religion and ideology motivated groups like the one linked in the OP.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
67. I wasn't comparing porn to gambling, guns or cigarettes.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 10:55 AM
Aug 2016

I was saying that people can point to evidence that they believe shows that porn has a negative effect on individuals or society, without calling for porn to be banned and whithout being non progressive fascists.

The same way that people can point to evidence that they believe shows that that gambling, guns or cigarettes have a negative effect on individuals or society, without calling for those items to be banned and without being non progressive fascists.

I'm sick of everytime anyone dares to even try to DISCUSS the issue, they're immediately accused of trying to ban it, accused of not being progressive, accused of using arguments that hurt gay people, accused of pearl clutching, accused of hating sex, accused of not caring about real issues, etc., etc.

People who have arguments that porn or the freedom to make and view porn (or gamble, or smoke, or own guns, etc., etc.) has a neutral or positive societal effect, should make those arguments. People who have arguments that porn (gambling, cigarettes, or guns, or numerous other things) has negative societal effects should make their arguments.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
81. Because there IS no evidence of "the negative effect of porn"; except from agenda-laden religious
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 04:50 PM
Aug 2016

right groups like this one.

And it's pretty damn telling that people who clearly have an "issue" with consenting adults being able to watch other consenting adults fuck on the internet can't come out and make that argument on its own merits (because there really aren't any) but instead invariably have to try and conflate it with stuff like the story in the OP.

You want to know why people think trying to tell consenting adults what they can watch or do in their own bedrooms is not progressive, just like trying to tell gay consenting adults who they can or cannot love is not progressive? Because it's NOT.


Amanda Marcotte: No, Porn Addiction is Not Really A Thing

It's not clear from this page which author did time, but an Internet search shows that it was McConnell, for aggravated assault. While it's not a surprise that someone who did such a thing might be tempted to blame porn for their behavior, it's worth remembering that real-world research suggests that there is no link between porn use and rape.

"Erotic and highly emotional experiences ... are powerful," the authors write in their conclusion, "too powerful, it seems, for the human soul to regularly absorb, very much like radiation, which also possessed a mysterious capacity to heal and curse." Passages like these make it clearer that when Christian conservatives talk about "porn addiction," it's less a real psychological problem than another way for Christian conservatives to shame people for being sexual.

In this piece in Christianity Today, for instance, Shaun Groves claims that "most of my friends" are addicted to porn; the "addiction" he describes consists of subscribing to Playboy and buying a few videos. Pastor Justin Davis's apparent rock-bottom moment was when his wife caught him watching some titillating TV. On the website Every Man's Battle, addiction is defined as having private thoughts about women in skimpy clothes. Winning the war for purity seems to slap the label "addict" on you if you masturbate.

It is true, as Todd VanDerWerff explains at Vox, that conservative Christians classify all "lust" for people not your spouse as sinful and even adulterous. The medicalizing language turns a sin into a disease; it forces "addicts" to live their lives in a state of minute-to-minute dread of their bodily urges and become dependent on the church to get them through this basically impossible journey.





prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
86. Yeah, that's just not accurate.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 10:30 PM
Aug 2016

There have been several studies showing harm to relationships and that internet porn can be addictive. There are also studies that have shown some positive effects of porn.

Saying porn causes zero harm or that the only people interested in whether it causes harm are religious, is just not true. Social and nuero scientists have been studying it and I imagine they will continue to study it. I imagine we'll all learn more pros and cons of it and it would be nice to be able to discuss the topic without all the hyberbolic BS from both sides.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
87. As Amanda Marcotte put it, that's not really "addiction".
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 10:43 PM
Aug 2016

If someone has as part of the ground rules of their relationship "I don't want you looking at porn" and the partner goes ahead and does it anyway, then sure that is gonna damage the relationship. It's not rocket science.

Similarly, as Marcotte mentioned, when someone has been told by their religion that masturbation is wrong and then they keep doing it, are they an "addict"? Should they be wracked with guilt? Or is this just a case of (again) religious authoritarians defining perfectly normal behavior as pathological?

I certainly suspect that some people can look at porn compulsively to the point where it causes problems in their life, just as people can engage in all sorts of things compulsively, be it gambling or world of warcraft. I think it's a muddying of the word "addiction" to catch-all those behaviors underneath it, particularly as someone who has seen the ravages of actual physiological addiction to things like alcohol on people close to me.

The only so-called "neuro scientist" I know of who has come up with anything like what you seem to be going after, here, was someone named Judith Reisman. We had all sorts of shit, here, years ago when some people wanted to float her hyperbolic assertions as science, nonsense about how looking at pictures of naked people produces something spooky (and entirely made up) called "erotoxins" in the brain, which means porn is hundreds of times more addictive than heroin zomg o no!

I suspect that's where these LDS folks in the OP are getting the business about it being the "new drug", actually.

When the Reisman stuff was brought here, it was the exact same script: People got very indignant when it was pointed out that her "science" was bullshit, and she's a religious right wack-a-doo who also thinks gay people caused the Holocaust. Same deal. "but why can't we discuss this"?

If you want to start a porn thread and put up all kinds of links from reputable non-religious-right scientists or even better, neurologists who have all this supposed hard evidence about how awful smut is for people, you can do it... I doubt anyone is going to hit the alert button. I can sort of predict how it's gonna go, but that's neither here nor there. But no one is keeping anyone from being "able to discuss" the topic.

This thread is about some underage people sharing images of other underage people without their consent, though, so it might be more relevant to have the conversation in a different one.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
88. I responded to a poster
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 11:13 PM
Aug 2016

who posted, great another ban porn thread, by pointing out that this was not a ban porn thread.

The OP posted an article that seemed to try to tie the criminal behavior described in the article to porn. A response pointing out that there's no evidence that porn was related to the criminal behavior, would make sense. A post misconstruing the thread as a ban porn thread, didn't make sense.

And of course porn is being researched and will continue to be. Here's a few of many studies.

http://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/5/3/388

 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289977152_Should_compulsive_sexual_behavior_be_considered_an_addiction

 http://guilfordjournals.com/doi/abs/10.1521/jscp.2012.31.4.410

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
90. One of those studies isn't about porn, but sexual behavior in general.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 11:40 PM
Aug 2016

and "addiction" is a word, a subjective label. Like I said, there's plenty of evidence that people can engage in all sorts of stuff compulsively. By that token, almost anything can be considered "addictive", be it internet porn, video games, shopping, eating, etc.

The only reason anyone is calling this a "ban porn thread", is because of the text of the article. Not only was it trying to tie the criminal behavior to porn, but it is coming from a group with an agenda that is, yes, "ban porn". So going from that to "ban porn thread" isn't really that much of a stretch.

If the OP had wanted a discussion about the actual story and reprehensible behavior therein, it would have been better NOT to post an entire opinion piece, the gist of which was, this is "because porn", "this is why we fight porn" is right there in the OP, directly quoted from the article.

I think when someone posts an OP-ed (from a Christian Right advocacy group, no less) that says "this is why we fight porn", it's fairly reasonable to take away "ban porn thread". No?

But what's funny is, after defending the posting of the OP in its entirety, the person who posted the OP themselves say upthread "yeah, if you gave cameras and internet connectivity to kids 30 years ago, the same thing would probably have happened". Which NEGATES THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE OPINION PIECE THEY POSTED. Hello!

Yes, "internet porn" didn't cause this, misuse of technology, poor guidance and boundary-setting, and kids being assholes with no empathy caused it. Which is kind of what a bunch of us have been saying here, all along.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
91. Well, if you read the sites FAQ
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 11:47 PM
Aug 2016

they state explicitly:

“Are you trying to take away people’s right to view porn?”
Definitely not. We do not have a political or legislative agenda. We are not trying to take away the rights of adults who choose to view pornography. You will never see us lobbying, protesting, getting petitions signed, etc. That’s not how we do things. We simply want to educate people on the harm that pornography can cause, and then allow them to make an educated choice for themselves.

Also, one of the studies is compulsive sexual behavior in general, but pornography viewing is included in that if you read the study. And each study cites to many other studies.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
92. Like I said, I'm sure people do all sorts of things compulsively.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 11:53 PM
Aug 2016

Humans are complex animals.

That's good that the Mormons who are running "fight the new drug" aren't trying to outlaw consenting adult smut. (Like I said, the person who responded with 'ban porn thread' probably saw "this is why we fight porn" in the OP.)

But anyway, maybe they decided legislation wasn't the way to go after all the pushback from Measure 8 and their opposition to Gay Marriage. Still, their "advocacy" doesn't deserve a whit more credence than fundamentalists who want to save LGBT people by "praying away the Gay".

Here's my bottom line: If everyone involved is a consenting adult, it's not my business- or anyone else's, for that matter. We don't accept people shaming Gay people for their sexual lives, etc. So why it's supposed to be "progressive" to promote the nonsense of religious right folks who are deeply committed to stopping Joe Blow from logging onto redtube... No, still don't fathom it.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
93. Like gambling is not our business.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 12:04 AM
Aug 2016

The hateful way gay people have been treated has no place in this conversation, in my opinion.

Progressives believe in regulating lots and lots of consenting adult behavior. Predatory lending regulation, smoking bans in private establishments, gambling restrictions, the drinking age being over 21 in many places. Heck, the minium wage argument is if two consenting adults agree to a lower wage, then it's nobody else's business.

If it causes harm, it's society's business.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
94. And the same people going on about the "harm" of consenting adult porn in the OP
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 01:03 AM
Aug 2016

can offer you long lists of authoritative-sounding reasons why "the gay lifestyle" is harmful, too.

THIS progressive doesn't believe in telling consenting adults what they can read or watch, as long as everyone is a consenting adult, sorry.

And the situation with telling consenting adults they can't -or shouldn't- get their jollies watching other consenting adults have sex is a hell of a lot more analogous to telling consenting adults they can't -or shouldn't- have sex with other consenting adults of the same gender, than it is with smoking in an enclosed restaurant.

I mean, you can't watch porn inside most restaurants, either.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
95. Well, this
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 01:28 AM
Aug 2016

progressive doesn't belive in regulating consenting adults' sexual behavior either. I do believe in consenting adults' right to make and watch porn.

But, I also believe in studying and being aware of the positive and negative effects of human behavior. I would also support legislation that validated ages to access at least some types of porn. I would also support legislation that protected 18 and 19 year olds from being exploited by the industry. But, enacting laws that do what is intended can be difficult.

I would not support a porn ban and I do agree with you, at least with the current scientific data, a call to BAN porn would not be a progressive position.


And a fondness for porn is not similar to an immutable sexual orientation, to me. I think the discrimination that gay people face for simply being themselves, cannot be compared to the choice to engage in porn.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
96. Well I think that most people probably react a bit peevishly when people try to tell them how they
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 01:44 AM
Aug 2016

"Should/shouldnt" get their jollies, assuming again everyone is a consenting adult. That applies to gay people and it also applies to juggalos, Phil Collins fans, or people who enjoy going to the Rocky Horror Picture Show every night.

I mean, I'm all for science. but I'm also sure there are studies and arguments that some women use vibrators compulsively or they can diminish sensation or response after X amount of repetitive use, and I suspect sociologists could make arguments that having "sex" with a humming tube of C cells inherently influences women to dehumanize the sex act and their partners, or something.

But honestly, when people take it upon themsleves lecture other consenting adults about such matters, they really shouldn't be surprised when they are told to mind their own damn business.

Beyond that, FWIW, I think gambling should be legal, too. And it mostly is; just in most states, the odds are shitty, the state has a monopoly, and it is called "the lottery".

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
97. Yeah, but I wouldn't take a study
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 01:51 AM
Aug 2016

outlining the negative effects of vibrator use as a lecture or threat to my vibrating rights. I'd appreciate the information and take it under advisement.


Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
99. We should remember, again, how we got here in this thread in the first place.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 02:32 AM
Aug 2016

Namely, that an OP was posted about a really fucked up story, but discussing the fucked up story was made difficult by the fact that it was filtered through a religious right website pushing a completely different agenda, which people rightly reacted to. And furthermore, the central thesis of the op-ed isn't accepted by anyone, including the OP, even as the OP defended posting that particular op-ed to present a story which is, of course, findable on other more news-oriented outlets.

I'll say this, if I can be an absolutist about anything, it's the First Amendment, and yeah, beyond that I'm unapologetic in my defense of the right of consenting adults to make their own damn decisions about their own lives and bodies. Period. That informs my opposition to the drug war, it informs my support for terminally ill people being able to choose a pain-free exit on their own terms, it informs my support of LGBT equality and reproductive freedom, and it also informs my support of the right of consenting adults to look at pictures of other consenting adults nude or films of them fucking.

I've been pretty up front and consistent on that point, for as long as I can remember.

But am I 'concerned' that somehow Rick Santorum or Gail Dines is going to manage to get all the nude pictures of Veronika Zemanova off the interwebs? As badly as they may want to, It's just not going to happen, it's even less likely than the notion that Chris Christie and Patrick Kennedy are going to put the legal weed genie back in the bottle. No, smut isn't going anywhere- the porn wars are over and the porn won.

But I'm not a fan of proselytizing, frankly it rubs me the wrong way (so to speak) and I also think it's a piss-poor way to convince people of things anyway. I don't eat red meat, but I certainly don't think any lecture from a vegan on DU has ever convinced a carnivore to change a single meal plan.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
108. Commercial speech is only entitled to limited protection
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 09:04 AM
Aug 2016

So, does being a first amendment absolutist make you agree with the Citizens United decision?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
111. Maybe you haven't been on the internet much lately?
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:28 PM
Aug 2016

But the only people who are still paying for porn are the ones who haven't figured out how much of it is out there for free.

As for citizens united, the problem isnt the first amendment but rather the dubious legal spin that campaign donations are themselves a form speech. The hurdle to call communications or media or entertainment speech is hardly so high.

Anyway, I thought no one was "interested in banning" anything, so legal arguments are moot, no?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
114. And by all means, Lets have that discussion, too.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:38 PM
Aug 2016

Because if Dworkin had been correct, the massive increased availability of smut that came with the internet should have resulted in a giant uptick in both sexual assault and violent crime in general.

Didnt happen, not even close.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
122. Haha,
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 04:09 PM
Aug 2016

yeah, but they're making money on those free porn sites somehow.

And, even regulations that didn't go so far as a ban, would require legal justifications. Like warning label regulations, or age verification regulations.

I think it's just too difficult to regulate because no rational person wants consenting adult sexual behavior criminalized. I remember when I was a teenager (I was a very naive teenager) and hearing here or there that sodomy was illegal, I just assumed that sodomy had more than one meaning because it made no sense at all that the government could or would make that illegal. And the oral sex regulations? Just, whaaaaaa? That's nuts.

Hell, I even take issue with seat belt laws for adults.

The porn question just converges many interesting topics, imo, so, I like hearing everybody's opinion on it.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
123. "Hell, I even take issue with seat belt laws for adults."
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 04:25 PM
Aug 2016

Glad to know somebody besides me feels this way.

prayin4rain

(2,065 posts)
124. I recently traded in my ten year old car
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 04:30 PM
Aug 2016

and my new car starts beeping incessantly the second my tires start rolling. Gggrrrrr

I mean, people obviously should wear their seat belts, but I think it's my American right to behave recklessly with my own safety. Haha

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
102. Perfectly logical argument.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 07:28 AM
Aug 2016

I have no idea why so many people here have such a hard time accepting it. You can discuss the negative effects of something (porn, guns, smoking) without calling for an all out ban. Why do so many people here freak out over it? It's like they could give a shit about the lives of women and girls as long as they have a constant supply of wank material.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
113. If you want to have a discussion about the "harm" of pot smoking, dont try and do it
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:37 PM
Aug 2016

In the context of blaming a bunch of heroin overdoses on it.

Similarly, the core thesis of the opinion piece posted in this OP is that "porn" is responsible for the behavior of these Australian students- a thesis which even the people at the religious right agenda-pushing website admit they have no evidence for, and which the OP, who posted the thing in its entirety, acknowledges upthread doesnt hold water- when she states that yeah, if you handed cell phone cameras and internet connectivity to kids 30 years ago, the exact same thing probably would have happened.

Ok, Know what that means? It means "internet porn" didnt do this, unsupervised access to technology along with teenage lack of empathy and very bad decision making did- and rightly, there will probably be some criminal charges at the end of this deal.

But if folks want to start threads bemoaning the "harms" of consenting adults looking at pictures of other consenting adults naked or having sex on the internet, no one is stopping anyone from starting those threads--- or "preventing" those discussions.

I think we all know how it'll go, but knock yourself out.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
104. Must be frustrating to realize people have opinions different than your own.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 08:37 AM
Aug 2016

Must be frustrating to realize people have opinions different than your own. The eyes roll bit helped point out both the sincere and substantive nature of your concern.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
51. "fightthenewdrug" (and how did fighting the old ones work out?) is a religious right anti-porn org
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 04:08 PM
Aug 2016

brought to you by the exact same folks who supported Prop. 8 against Gay Marriage in California.

A slight suggestion? ....Perhaps a different source on this story would work better.

Personally, I don't think (unlike the folks who wrote the article) that "porn" is responsible - rather, technology is. Actually, the kids involved are responsible, but rapid advancements in technology were the facilitator. They weren't "programmed by porn" to do this, that's just derpy.

Responsible use of technology, digital citizenship, responsibility to others and awareness of the consequences- in the lives of selves and others, sometimes criminal, as implied by this case to be sure- of one's media and online interactions are essential for raising kids now, it's a new landscape and clearly in the case of the Australian schools someone dropped the ball bigtime.

But honestly, OP- if, as you claim in this thread, you understand the clear and important distinction between pictures of nude consenting adults on the internet and crap like this, why is your ALL CAPS OP a huge paragraph from a website devoted to the proposition of conflating the two?

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
128. If you click the link you'll find this:
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 05:30 PM
Aug 2016

"This post was originally posted on news.com.au"

Perhaps if you actually look at the source provided rather than lecturing?

NurseJackie

(42,862 posts)
54. I have no words that can accurately convey the DISGUST I'm now feeling ...
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 04:43 PM
Aug 2016

... the replies here ... seriously ... WTF!

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
60. The OP links to a religious right Mormon anti-porn org
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:23 PM
Aug 2016

That thinks internet porn - by, and for, consenting adults- is a 'public health crisis'

So does the 2016 GOP platform.

It's disgusting that so many people are willing to take their hyperbolic right wing associations and assertions at face value, even though the people making them also think gay marriage is a 'public health crisis'

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
62. It is in all caps because I copied and pasted & didn't want to type it all out again.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:53 PM
Aug 2016

No ulterior motives. I posted this because of the pedophilia. If it came from a different source, I would have posted that instead. If people want to ignore the travesty of pedophilia and focus on the pornography backstory, go right ahead. Whatever floats people's boats. I don't give two shits about that....

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
66. I can only imagine you didn't read the article you posted.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:42 PM
Aug 2016

Because it's only about 10% on the actual story, the rest is hyperbolic inferences about how adult internet porn is responsible... and perhaps not coincidentally, "fighting" adult porn is the mission of the organization.

I'd imagine there are other, better sources for the story, that don't muddy it by trying to make it about something else.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
68. It wasn't 10% & I did read the article. Clearly, you have an issue with pornography
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 12:43 PM
Aug 2016

It is near and dear to you. It isnt for me. You zeroed in on a couple hyperbolic inferences and amazingly was untouched by the pedophilia that was presented. That article is about the hunting of these girls. And whether you agree or disagree with this site's pornography stance, it doesn't take away from the heinous pedophilia itself and the victims it is creating. Did you not read about the little girl who begged them to stop and they used her as an example and went after her even more? Or the girls contemplating suicide because of this? That didn't send you into an angry tizzy? That sure as hell sent me off. But the site's RW stance on pornography in general is what you got out of it? I don't know what to say to that....

And to be clear, pedophilia is NOT a political issue. I don't care if the most right wing paper said it. If they brought awareness to this and are going after the heinous people committing this crime, I will support that. I support anyone going after pedophiles 100,000%.



Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
80. You posted a link to a religious right group, and you can't figure out why people call that out?
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 04:44 PM
Aug 2016

It's not just me who noticed, for one.

And it's not that I'm zeroing in on "the site's RW stance on pornography", that is all the site IS. It's the fact that they're using this story to push their agenda. The gist of the article isn't "look what happened in Australia"- the heinous people behind the crime are students, as are the victims, and to my mind this story is about misuse of technology and poor teaching of the consequences of its use as well as bad judgment and lack of empathy often displayed by teenagers (and sadly nothing new) than it is about internet porn by and for consenting adults-- but the gist of the article; an opinion piece, really, which you reproduced pretty much in full, in your OP--is 1 part "horrible story" and 9 parts "this is why we fight porn".

I'm not buying that you had no idea of the agenda you were carting in here, actually.

You understand the difference between consent/non-consent and adults/non-adults, so do I. But the people who run the site you link to are trying desperately to conflate the two, not to protect Australian students but to advance their agenda.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
98. You can believe what you want about me. I don't care if this website is all about hating porn
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 02:27 AM
Aug 2016

And I will support them and anyone else in exposing pedophilia and its devastating effects. I don't care one way or another if porn gets banned or if they throw it under the bus or put it on a mantle to fight pedophilia. If a pro-pornography site went after pedophilia, I would support them too. Whatever gets the job done.

So, criticize the site all you want. I think it is fair play. But it does not negate the fact that we need to do more about pedophilia--no matter who says it.



Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
100. Certainly the people involved in this story have broken those laws, & should likely face prosecution
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 02:35 AM
Aug 2016

but if you don't want this thread to be derailed into being about something it's not, don't post an OP whose core assertion is "this is why we fight porn". That's not raising awareness of the issue at hand, it's trying to conflate it with something entirely different.

The opinion piece itself contains a direct link to the news piece, that would probably be a better way to go.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
65. Nice try, but no. No one is calling what was done "acceptable".
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 11:40 PM
Aug 2016

What is challenged, here, is the spin from the right wing mormon anti-porn org; that's porn BY and FOR consenting adults, by the way- trying to shoehorn this story into their agenda.


No one is saying what happened in Australia is acceptable. But it has nothing to do with what adults do amongst themselves in their bedrooms and on the internet. And yet these right wing theocrats are using this story to push a pro-censorship agenda, one that is being argued in the Utah State Legislature and the GOP platform.

Defend that.

lindysalsagal

(20,592 posts)
61. It all adds up to one truth: children can't handle tech responsibly.
Sat Aug 27, 2016, 10:44 PM
Aug 2016

With some exceptions. That's why we have driving and drinking minimum ages.

I always change my clothes in a private cubical at the club for this reason. I'm no underase beauty, but abuse is abuse. Same reason i'm not on facebook.

Initech

(100,041 posts)
69. Why change the names? Expose these assholes!
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 12:48 PM
Aug 2016

They deserve to be known for the criminal acts they are committing.

AgadorSparticus

(7,963 posts)
72. Did they? This is the first I have heard of something like this.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 12:53 PM
Aug 2016

But it wouldn't surprise me if it is happening again if law enforcement down there fail to nip this in the bud the first time around. Like I said upthread, Australia needs to get their shit together.

obamanut2012

(26,047 posts)
116. That was New Zealand
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:40 PM
Aug 2016

And, it was even worse in some ways, because it was actual sex and rape "scorecards."

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
82. You are correct that, with teens, technology presents a whole new minefield of potential problems.
Sun Aug 28, 2016, 05:02 PM
Aug 2016

Several points need to be taught, the top 2 to my mind being that digital stuff is permanent and can be reproduced ad infinitum, and actions online and in technology can have far reaching consequences for oneself and others.

One issue with the law as it stands now is, sometimes you have young people (girls, mostly) being charged under these laws for sharing pictures of themselves. While the picture sharing is not a good idea, I suspect we all can agree that that specific use case of the law is a misapplication. There should be a legal distinction between pictures of oneself and sharing pictures of others. I don't think a girl in High School should be slapped with a lifelong sex offender label for sending her boyfriend an ill-advised nude selfie.



NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
109. Letting someone take nude photos of you is idiotic.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 01:55 PM
Aug 2016

These little bastards should be ashamed of what they're doing with these photos, but come on people, if you allow your nude photos on any sort of electronic media, there is a good chance they will end up online and being gawked at by losers. Use some common sense, people.

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
118. Engaging in dehumanizing child porn, where you admit you steal things from people's computers
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 03:43 PM
Aug 2016

when you're repairing them is also idiotic. What's up there is blaming the victims of this abuse who are being hunted and doxed.

NaturalHigh

(12,778 posts)
120. Child porn and stealing from someone's computer is illegal.
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 04:02 PM
Aug 2016

If any of these people are caught and convicted of those crimes, they should be punished. That doesn't change the fact that sending out nude pictures over the internet is idiotic.

 

synergie

(1,901 posts)
125. And making assumptions that's what ANY of these girls did with ZERO evidence, and actual
Mon Aug 29, 2016, 05:17 PM
Aug 2016

words telling you otherwise, is also idiotic. Why do you feel the need to say such nasty things about an entire generation of little girls who have been victimized here?

These people WERE caught and that's how we come to know about what they've been doing to these women and girls that you heap such hate and abuse upon. Honestly what's wrong with you that you feel the need to hurl more abuse on young girls who were violated?

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