Michigan Recount Problems Are Emerging - Thousands of Ballots in Detroit May Remain Uncounted

[LovingA2andMI]

In Michigan's Largest Democratic City, Detroit, upwards of 59% of the total votes cast may not be available for a recount with Stein's effort, due to massive errors.

"If only the voting issues would have been fixed in 2009 & 2013 there is a chance Hillary Clinton could have won Michigan. Clinton as a candidate lost Michigan by 10,704 votes. Or likely the amount of precincts not able to be counted by State Law, in Detroit.

Detroit residents voting is not the problem, in the least. Residents of Michigan largest city stand in line each Election Day, as other voters in the State, with an expectation their votes will be counted.

Unfortunately, the latest information from the Detroit News proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, Detroiters have a 59% chance their votes might not be counted at all.

According to the Detroit News, 392 of the City of Detroit's 662 precincts are unavailable for recounted due to ballot numbers not matching poll book data"

Read More Here: http://www.reachoutjobsearch.com/2016/12/thousands-of-detroits-ballots-might.html

[shraby]

1. That should be patently illegal. If the vote is there, it should be counted as cast.

[LovingA2andMI]

4. Agree....

The Problem Is Michigan Election Law....

"168.871 Recount; use of electronic voting system; use of voting machines; recount of absent voter ballots; procedures for conduct of recount; use of computer; testing software application.
Sec. 871.

(1) The board of canvassers conducting a recount pursuant to this chapter shall recount all ballots of a precinct using an electronic voting system unless 1 or more of the following circumstances exist:

(a) The seal on the transfer case or other ballot container is broken or bears a different number than that recorded on the poll book, the breaking or discrepancy is not explained to the satisfaction of the board of canvassers, and security of the ballots has not been otherwise preserved.

(b) The number of ballots to be recounted and the number of ballots issued on election day as shown on the poll list or the computer printout do not match and the difference is not explained to the satisfaction of the board of canvassers.

(c) The seal used to seal the ballot label assembly to a voting device in the precinct is broken or bears a different number than that recorded in poll records and the ballot labels or rotation of candidates' names is different than that shown by other voting devices in the precinct and records of the board of election commissioners."

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(lfby2hchpnkrl1bwixumiyzk))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-168-871&query=on&highlight=recount%20AND%20seal

[LovingA2andMI]

6. And If The Votes Could Be Recounted...

There is NO DOUBT Hillary Clinton would win the state, period. Detroit is the largest Democratic City in Michigan - and the largest City for that matter. She would win Michigan if these votes are counted, hands down.

[4139]

7. The original count for the precinct will count... but will not be recounted...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/05/recount-unrecountable/95007392/

[LovingA2andMI]

13. Exactly....

Thus upwards of 292,587 (59%) of the votes cast in Detroit, likely will remain uncounted. Hillary Clinton "Lost" Michigan by the smallest margin in Presidential Election HISTORY with 10,704 votes.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

16. They are not uncounted

They are not going to be recounted. Huge difference.

[brush]

53. Why does the OP say they will remain uncounted then?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

54. That was the headline of the story

But it's not supported by the story itself.

[wordpix]

61. b/c the MI official says that's the way it is (puke)

[wordpix]

59. 59%? The repugs stole this election in Detroit. Period

[apcalc]

2. What?please explain....

[4139]

10. Here's the description but I can't explain it

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/05/recount-unrecountable/95007392/

[wordpix]

60. the MI official says these ballots are not recountable and how dare you ask why not? (sarcasm)

The official did not explain. So there. Donald won. So there. Ballots in these precincts are not recountable. Live with it.

[putitinD]

3. I wonder if Rick Snyder (poison the water in Flint) Republican Governor had anything to do with this

[LovingA2andMI]

5. The Issues With Detroit Votes...

Have been going on since 2009, that we are aware of. More likely than not Tricky Ricky is well-aware of the problem but, since it helps him and his Republicans to have thousands of voters in Detroit suppressed, the chances he will do a thing about it is --- ZERO.

[Aimee in OKC]

23. Get this information to citizens of Detroit

Who knows, once they find out how unlikely it is their votes will be counted, they could be pissed off enough to do something about that.

[LovingA2andMI]

31. That's the Hope...

It has been passed to them and they are not happy in the least.

[putitinD]

25. If the vote was not done properly in 2009, and 2013, Maybe Snyder didn't really win either election.

and just didn't bother to fix anything so it is a lock for republicans. Without Detroit, no Democrat can win Michigan.

[LovingA2andMI]

32. Bingo....

And its' likely a GOOD question -- as in if Snyder really won in 2010 or 2014. Especially 2014, especially.

[wordpix]

62. Calling DOJ, calling DOJ, where are you? If I were a Detroit resident

I would be out on the street and in the state house

[Jeffersons Ghost]

8. K&R time for the FBI to investigate the Trump cyber-crime syndicate

[RKP5637]

12. Probably will never happen. Trump, is their white man for office. n/t

[wordpix]

63. he's certainly POS Comey's guy for sure

[roamer65]

9. Sue the state for violation of voting and civil rights, Ms Stein.

Invalidate our 16 EV's please!

[LovingA2andMI]

14. Now That Might Be A Solution....

Along with filing a Writ of Quo Warranto in Federal Court:

According to Cornell University Law School (CULS), a Quo Warranto action is sought to determine if an individual has a legal right to hold office.

"Latin for "by what warrant (or authority)?" A writ quo warranto is used to challenge a person's right to hold a public or corporate office. A state may also use a quo warranto action to revoke a corporation's charter," CULS noted.

[putitinD]

27. and while you are at it, MS Stein. Sue to get Rick Snyder's Governership revoked. If the Detroit

vote has been broken since 2009, He never really got elected Governor.

[Farmgirl1961]

30. I think that Michigan folks need to start a revolt and demand a revote!

[BainsBane]

11. This should be grounds for a lawsuit under the 14th and 15th amendments.

That's outrageous. It absolutely is enough to tip the election.

[LovingA2andMI]

15. In Michigan...

Yes for sure and our 16 Electoral Votes will MORE LIKELY THAN NOT go completely in Hillary Clinton's column.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

17. Seriously?

The 14th and 15th Amendments give a Constitutional right to a recount?

[BainsBane]

18. The right to vote

and equal protection.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

19. There is a right to have a vote counted

There is no right to have it recounted.

[LovingA2andMI]

33. However, there is a right for the vote...

Not to be infringed. If the votes cannot be counted, can such not be considered infringement?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

36. The votes were counted

On Election night

[Kingofalldems]

38. Aren't you for justice for Democratic voters?

I don't get it.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

41. Sure

I think the rule about not recounting precincts due to errors is stupid. But it's simply untrue to say the votes haven't been counted

[LovingA2andMI]

39. Wrong...

They are UNOFFICIALLY counted on Election Night in Detroit (who should have caught the problem immediately), sent to the County for reconciliation and County Canvassing (which is where the errors should have been caught as a cross-check), then three weeks later -- the numbers are forwarded over to the Michigan Board of Canvassers for the Offical consolidated count (which was the third cross-check that failed).

But, according to you -- they are just counted on Election Night.....

Also, Michigan was not Officially Called by the Networks at all -- until November 28, 2016 -- or when the Michigan Board of Canvassers finished their reconciliation due to VOTE ISSUES in WAYNE COUNTY, MICHIGAN. I.E. -- Where the City of Detroit sits within.

[SickOfTheOnePct]

42. Never said they were only

Counted in election night. Just correcting the lies about the votes not having been counted.

The author is clearly implying that these votes weren't included in the totals, which is factually incorrect

[LovingA2andMI]

43. WRONG....

For the second time. The 392 precincts were NOT COUNTED due to errors as noted six times over in this thread but here's the Detroit News take for it:

"One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots.

Michigan’s largest county voted overwhelmingly for Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, but officials couldn’t reconcile vote totals for 610 of 1,680 precincts during a countywide canvass of vote results late last month.

Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.

According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand."

Any questions?

[SickOfTheOnePct]

45. Yes, you are wrong

The votes were counted and included in both the unofficial and certified totals. But because the number of ballots didn't match the number of signatures in polling books, those precincts can't be recounted, as noted in the article.

"According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand."

If the votes weren't counted to begin with, as you claim, then to what election results is the article referring?

There are 1,355,794 registered voters in Wayne County. 782,719 votes for President were counted, which equates to 57.7% You're claiming, per the article, that 59% of the vote in Wayne County was never counted. Obviously, that's impossible, since even with 100% turnout, the highest percentage that could be uncounted would be 42.3%.

[MichMan]

46. Do you even read what you post LovingA2andMI ?

According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand."

What is it about the part that states ORIGINAL ELECTION RESULTS STAND that you don't understand. All these votes were previously counted and certified by the Board of Canvasers.

Again, THEY WERE ORIGINALLY COUNTED. Due to incompetence by election staff (trained at the county level, not state level) they are not eligible to be revised per a recount. Either way, the vote count already certified still counts. No ones vote is not being counted!

[LovingA2andMI]

49. Obviously, there is a problem with reading comprehension ---

IF the votes were counted then this would not be an issue as with Washtenaw and Marquette Counties:

"Elections officials in Washtenaw and Marquette counties told The News on Monday that votes in all precincts were reconciled."

Also, in Oakland County this happened:

"In the first six hours of Ingham County’s recount Monday, six of 30 precincts from Lansing could not be recounted. One of the ballot containers had a hole in it, making it susceptible to tampering and not recountable, county Clerk Barb Byrum said."

More:

"None had nearly as many problems as Wayne. But at least 13 of 222 precincts in Genesee County are not balanced. More than half of those were in heavily Democratic Flint, according to county canvassing reports. The election was still certified by its board of canvassers.

“The trouble is there’s too much leniency with the board of canvassers,” said John Gleason, Genesee County’s clerk. “They’re not as stringent as need to be because they think it won’t affect the outcome of the election.”

Next, there is this quote:
“When a recount is started, these numbers could change based on information discovered during the course of the recount, according to our procedures,” Haroutunian said. “You don’t know until you get in the middle of it.”

Or and this one:
State law spells out a prescribed criteria for determining whether a precinct can be recounted. Workers first check to make sure the number of ballots on the seal of the container matches the ballots recorded by workers on Election Day.

“If the seal number matches, then we know it’s not been tampered with,” Rozell said.

If numbers don’t match, then workers can count all of the ballots in the precinct twice to see if there was an error made by workers on Election Night.

“If it does not match after the second count, then it’s not recountable,” Rozell said.

Entire precincts can be set aside in a recount if the ballots are stored in an unapproved container or if it isn’t properly sealed.

What does reconciliation do:
"Make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed."

If the numbers cannot be reconciled, the precincts and ballots ARE NOT INCLUDED with the final count, plain and simple. This is not rocket science. It's math.

Lastly, there is this:
"Disqualifying huge numbers of precincts would make it “almost impossible” for the former New York senator to make up the votes, said Ernest Johnson, a Democratic political activist who worked to get out the vote for Clinton.

“It’s a real long-shot now because, if I were looking for 10,000 votes, the first place I’d look is Wayne County,” Johnson said. “That’s a huge problem. ... But if anything good comes of this it brings up this problem (with voting machines) that needs to be corrected.”

The quotes are from the Detroit News article ITSELF. With that, we are done with this useless back and forth when thousands are Detroiters votes risk not being counted, yet again.

[MichMan]

51. You would have to ask the elected officials in charge of those county elections

Not sure what Oakland County has to do with anything by the way

Sounds like Washtenaw and Marquette Counties had competent election staff. As to why Genesee and Wayne Counties had problems, I would have to ask the elected officials in those cities to explain how their staff messed up something so important. Since they are responsible for selection and training I would hope the voters hold them accountable. If they had done job correctly like the other 80 counties this wouldn't be an issue. My county in the middle of no where had no issues either....

Would be interesting to have Gleason explain how his staff screwed up so bad. Blaming the Board of Canvassers for not catching the screw-ups by his own staff seems to indicate he doesn't think his job is important enough to bother with it

I don't believe that boxes that appear to be tampered should be recounted, do you? If so, would you also agree if Oakland County found broken seals, damaged boxes and issues with poll book counts on multiple boxes & Brooks Patterson demanded they be counted anyway that you would be OK with it?

[MichMan]

52. Why do you keep omitting the important part ?

Interesting that you quote vast parts of the article but omitted this part (again)


The certified election results would stand if a precinct is determined to be non-recountable,” Byrum told reporters.

[wordpix]

65. Sounds like a Rick Give-em-Lead Snyder state law and what, exactly, does it say?

Can someone post this law? Maybe the eagle beagles here can decipher the legalese.

[uponit7771]

47. No one can confirm this, then they weren't counted

[wordpix]

64. if you read the article, you would know they were counted but the voting machines are

unreliable and "Most of those [problem ballots] are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662."

[AgadorSparticus]

20. And here I thought every vote casted HAD TO BE COUNTED

How can you run an election and not count ballots casted? How do they legally and arbitrarily discard ballots? Unreal....

[MichMan]

22. That is not what is being done

They are not discarding anything. All this means is that due to discrepancies, these precincts are not eligible for a recount thus making the original count results stand

[AgadorSparticus]

24. But when your vote has a 59% chance of being counted, there is something terribly wrong w election p

"Unfortunately, the latest information from the Detroit News proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, Detroiters have a 59% chance their votes might not be counted at all."

From that site. I guess I don't understand all this. It seems to me that if you can't guarantee every vote counts, you need to go back and do an audit and recount everything. You can't may sweep it under the rug.

[MichMan]

26. You are not paying attention

100% of the votes were counted after the election. Those vote totals still count as originally certified.

Those precincts with the discrepancies however will not be recounted. The remainder of the precincts will be recounted and the totals from both groups will be what is reported.

Change the word "counted" to "recounted" in the quote you posted and that would be more accurate of a description.

[LovingA2andMI]

35. Maybe if you review the reason WHY these votes were not recounted....

Is Because....

According to the Detroit News, 392 of the City of Detroit's 662 precincts are unavailable for recounted due to ballot numbers not matching poll book data.

Or in other words, voters attended the polls, cast a ballot, that ballot likely was accepted in the machine and NOT counted due to training and clerical error that any Clerk worth their salt, should ensure does NOT happen. Especially in 59% of the precincts, they are in charge of.

[MichMan]

21. Headline is misleading; Votes have already been counted and that total will stand

From my understanding, the issue is that there are more votes recorded than voters. What they said was that if a machine malfunctioned when the optical scan ballot was inserted that the voters would put it through again. The election workers were supposed to reset the counter, but apparently failed to do so.

That means that there is a discrepancy between the number of ballots issued vs the numbers fed into the machine. These were counted originally, but are not to be recounted making the original count stand for that precinct.

While the state does appropriate funds for purchasing machines, the county is responsible for maintaining the machines and in charge of the election process as the County Clerk is an elected position. FYI, there has not been a Democrat elected to office in Wayne County in decades. Current County Exec Warren Evans has been doing a good job, but unfortunately long time former county exec Robert Ficano was saddled with a lot of ethical issues before losing the primary

[LovingA2andMI]

37. You're WRONG....Plain and Simple.

First, do you live in Michigan? Second, do you have any insight on how votes are recounted in the State of Michigan?

So, again -- we will refer to the article at hand:

According to the Detroit News, 392 of the City of Detroit's 662 precincts are unavailable for recounted due to ballot numbers not matching poll book data.

These are CLERICAL AND TRAINING errors. Voters attended the polls, filled out a ballot, those ballots were likely accepted by the machine but failed to reconcile with the poll book as Election Workers failed to properly note the ballot to the name associated in the poll book.

Is this the voter's fault? If so, explain how? Should their votes not be counted due to an error that was no fault of their own? If so, explain why?

Also, before answering ANY of these questions, read the Detroit News article, as we would assume Journalists who we know at the Detroit News, got their "Headline" wrong too.

[MichMan]

44. You might need to read it yourself

First . My name is MichMan Go Green!

I have been voting in Michigan elections since John Anderson in 1980.

Second, you bolded the part that is important; read slowly now (recounted)


These are errors by the election staff and not the voters fault, but again read slowly, THE VOTE COUNT FROM ELECTION NIGHT STILL COUNTS FOR THOSE VOTERS!

Unfortunately since those same election workers did not catch the errors or give any explanations, those ballot boxes are not eligible to be recounted. Note this doesn't mean they don't count at all, it just means that the original count submitted on election night will be used for these specific boxes.

(If the Wayne County and Detroit City Clerks do that poor of a job of training, maybe they need to be replaced in the next election, but I don't live in that county, so my opinion on that is meaningless)

By the way, here is the Detroit News article and headline with quotes by Barb Byrum, a well known Democrat from Lansing



Half of Detroit votes may be ineligible for recount


State law spells out a prescribed criteria for determining whether a precinct can be recounted. Workers first check to make sure the number of ballots on the seal of the container matches the ballots recorded by workers on Election Day.
“If the seal number matches, then we know it’s not been tampered with,” Rozell said.
If numbers don’t match, then workers can count all of the ballots in the precinct twice to see if there was an error made by workers on Election Night.

“If it does not match after the second count, then it’s not recountable,” Rozell said.

Entire precincts can be set aside in a recount if the ballots are stored in an unapproved container or if it isn’t properly sealed.
At Ingham County’s recount operation Monday at the county’s fairgrounds in Mason, ballots were stored in suitcase-like containers that were sealed with plastic zip-ties that had to be cut for workers to take out the ballots.

Byrum plans to have the ballot bags guarded each night during the recount by a sheriff’s deputy.
Elections officials instructed Ingham County recount workers who reconciled the ballot numbers on the second count to count them a third time to verify the numbers.

“The certified election results would stand if a precinct is determined to be non-recountable,” Byrum told reporters.

[forthemiddle]

58. What if this was Waukesha Wisconsin

Would you be so willing to claim clerk error, and demand that all the votes for Trump be recounted, or would you be shouting fraud on the part of Republican officials in the evil county of Waukesha?

All election counts are the responsibility of local officials, and I will be shocked if Republicans don't start screaming fraud on the part of Detroit, and to tell the truth if the situation was reversed, we would be doing the same.

[lonestarnot]

28. Fucking crime against American citizenry. Crooked bullshit. Why would I ever want to fucking vote

again? I've never missed an election. Not one.

[Eric J in MN]

29. This is backwards.

If the number of ballots doesn't match the poll book, there should be a recount to try to correct that.

[MichMan]

40. I don't agree

There are a number of things that cause the ballot boxes from a particular precinct to not be recounted. Note the key word there is recounted.

For example, seal numbers not matching, seals missing, holes in the box, & number of ballots not matching the poll book. There are possible innocent reasons those situations could occur and other possibilities that may show malfeasance. The people running the elections have the opportunity to explain those types of things when submitting the ballots after the election. Apparently in this case none of them did so, and the Board of Canvassers certified the election.

Most likely caused by election staff errors and not malfeasance, however since the recount officials can't prove it one way or the other, they are these are set aside as damaged goods so to speak.

Now that the recount is starting, since there were no reasons originally given for the discrepancies, the recount law deems those precincts ineligible for the recount, but (THIS IS IMPORTANT) the vote totals from election night will STILL COUNT.

(If the situation was reversed and there were multiple Trump precincts with "extra" ballots or broken seals, I'm pretty certain everyone here would be screaming about cheating etc)

[Eric J in MN]

48. If a thousand people signed in but only 500 ballots were recorded

...then the machines were probably taking in some ballots without recording them.

A hand-count would probably account for all thousand ballots.

[MichMan]

50. It appears that it may have been the other way around

Last edited Tue Dec 6, 2016, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)

From what I read, it is possible that the same one was fed in multiple times before it was recorded.

Doesn't mean that it was uncounted or counted twice, but since the election workers failed to note or correct the counters the ballot box is considered compromised and the totals originally recorded will be used. I don't have any inside knowledge, but just trying to read and understand

Once again, the votes as counted after the election will still count, but the box is set aside and not recounted. I think that is because it could possibly indicate potential post election tampering, so without being able to prove it one way or another it is considered compromised

[wordpix]

66. totally agree but these are DETROIT, Rick Snyder-Let-Them-Drink-Lead votes

thus, not worthy of recount b/c Hillary will likely win the state

[C Moon]

34. The U.S. plain and simple, sucks. We can't even elect our leaders honestly.

I sure hope every single man and woman who is asked to fight in some Trumped up war, sits down and says "go to hell!"
I certainly wouldn't sacrifice my only life for a country that doesn't even allow us to honestly elect our leaders.

[DetlefK]

55. Can we now please drop the myth that the US is a democratic country?

[Vinca]

56. If the numbers don't match, there should be a complete audit of the vote in those 662 precincts.

Once again . . . where are the Clinton lawyers?

[AgadorSparticus]

57. Exactly. If #'s are not matching up, there needs to be an automatic recount and audit.