Actually Hillary Did Win. Four State's Votes Were Shaved For Trump.

[TheMastersNemesis]

If you think about it 4 or 5 state's votes were shaved. It is more than a coincidence that those states all went in a similar way. It is just too convenient that they were ALL that close. And it just makes you mad.

[planetc]

2. The phenomenon is called the red shift. eom

[angstlessk]

3. It's actually called voter suppression.

[BlueCaliDem]

26. Thank you! Far too little is said about the voter suppression laws passed by Republican

legislatures and Republican governors, both in M$M and on progressive boards.

Thank you for reminding everyone that voter suppression laws passed and signed into law by Republican-controlled States were just enacted in this past election, and they will still be around in 2018 and 2020 unless something is done to get rid of them or help voters find a way around/through them.

[TheTruthIsOutThere_]

35. The Best Democracy Money Can Buy

This is an excellent documentary by Greg Palast on voter suppression and Crosscheck. A real eye opener for sure.
"The Best Democracy Money Can Buy: A Tale of Billionaires & Ballot Bandits [link:http://www.gregpalast.com|

[angstlessk]

39. Love me some Palast...and WELCOME

[planetc]

46. the red shift means ...

that when the "actual" vote total falls outside the exit poll margin of error, it almost invariably favors the Republican. Voter suppression is hard at work before the election, and comprises "caging" voter lists, strict voter ID requirements, inadequate polling hours and equipment, and the like. All these efforts may be going on in advance of election day and throughout it. On the magical evening when the votes are counted, there's still room for chicanery through mis-programming of voting machines and tampering with vote totals as they are reported from the precinct. Doubtless there are a few further places where the totals can be interfered with. In the elections that have been closely examined since 2004, the shift from exit poll margins of error is almost invariably a red shift. We ain't got no blue shifts. We need to find a way to stop our elections from wiggling. With paper ballots hand counted, perhaps.

[milestogo]

4. Its actually called election fraud.

[brush]

19. Bingo! But all we get from trumpsters and the complicit media is talk of voter fraud...

as if millions of people are going to risk voting twice, maybe go to jail. Because that's what it would take to affect a national election.

Just the stupid thought that somehow someone coordinated an operation where millions of people would do that is so foolish it's beyond comprehension that someone would believe it.

[milestogo]

41. But Trump is foolish beyond comprehension.

[brush]

47. Well, that's true.

[Abouttime]

5. I've been saying all along

Hillary won the election!

[Bengus81]

6. If she had 3 million illegal votes to play with like Trump and KKKobach claim....

Then why not use them in those 3-4 swing states where she barely lost?? She would have easily won both the popular and electoral. Keep making the claim Kobach,your a fucking embarrassment to Kansas and the Nation.

[IronLionZion]

8. Because we're not as smart as Trump

we use our illegals in heavily Democratic California where we got 62% of the vote, because Trump is so much smarter than us.

Since Trump's camp assured us there was no fraud in PA, Michigan, or Wisconsin, I would think that's where we need to investigate fraud. The more he rants about illegals voting, the more I'm sure they did something in those rust belt states.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

27. You are exactly right ! I have news on in background all day long. I have heard every word

Trump has ever said. He can NOT keep a secret. Even if something is a secret for him - he spills out little hints. He definitely knew about the Russian hack - would bet my life on it.

Think he did hack it somehow - and he is really pissed about it - because someone screwed up and didn't make sure Hillary lost the pop vote.

Another clue?? Long before the election he ranted that it would be rigged. This was an effort to set us up to keep quiet about fraud if we lost.

Which of those states had the highest poll numbers for Hillary before the election? I know she was trending down in the final weeks.

[moose65]

22. Democrats should start pointing that out!

If we are smart enough to get 3 - 5 million illegal votes without anyone finding out about it, why in the hell wouldn't we have used just 100,000 of those in Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Ohio? Jeez. Republicans simultaneously think Democrats are smart enough to hide millions of illegal votes and stupid enough to concentrate them in California?? Wow.

[erpowers]

48. Dog Whistle

I think the 3-5 million illegal votes is a dog whistle. I guess you also think it is a dog whistle, but I would like to explain my thinking. I think the point is both to make an excuse for why Trump lost the popular vote and make people scared of and angry about illegal Mexican immigrants.

The point of the millions of illegal votes meme is to claim that if there had not been so many illegal Mexican immigrants in California and New York Hillary Clinton would not have won the popular vote. The reason the Democrats did not spread the votes around to battle ground states is that there is not a large amount of illegal Mexican immigrants in the rust belt. The rust belt is full of legal white Americans who voted for Trump. If there had not been illegal Mexican immigrants in California and New York Donald Trump would have also won those states.

The Republicans might also argue that voter ID laws prevented Democrats from benefiting from illegal voting in the battle ground states. How many battle ground states had voter ID laws? Even if Democrats wanted to cheat they could not cheat in the battle ground states because the efforts of Republicans in those states ended the ability of Democrats to benefit from illegal votes. Due to crosscheck and voter ID people registered in two states could not vote twice, illegal immigrants could not vote, and people could not make up fake identities to vote.

[Mc Mike]

7. Agreed 100%, TMN. rec, Nt

[Equinox Moon]

9. RIGGED

The actual number of votes he won by in those states was:

77,774

That's it!

So I ask you, why did HRC not go after a HAND RE-COUNT?

[Bettie]

13. I agree, the Democratic party

should have been all over this.

IF it had gone the other way, we'd still be involved in lawsuit after lawsuit and they would never give up.

The main thing that frustrates me about our party is that they never really fight for anything. They just accept whatever they are given by the other side.

[Equinox Moon]

14. It is classic predator and prey.

And to add more poison to the pot, many venomously criticized and denounced Jill Stein's efforts to flush out the truth with a hand re-count. She was spot-on in her actions for the sake of democracy and democrats spit on her for it.

America is now being decimated. I feel awful everyday now.

[jmg257]

16. Huh a third party candidate? I wonder why some spit on her (efforts)?

Trump defeated Clinton in Florida by a margin of 119,770 votes. Johnson alone took more than that (206,007 votes), while Stein took another 64,019. If only half of Florida’s third-party voters had chosen Clinton, she would have taken the state’s 29 electoral votes.

Trump won Pennsylvania with a total of 2,912,941 votes compared to Clinton’s 2,884,705, a difference of 68,236 votes. Johnson took more votes than the difference by himself, receiving 2.4 percent of the state, or 142,653 votes, but Stein received just 0.8 percent, or 48,912 votes.

Though Michigan's official vote tally awaits approval from the AP, Trump appears to have taken the state and its 16 electoral votes by less than a half-percent, receiving only 11,423 more votes than Clinton. Johnson won far more of the state’s votes than that, closing out with 173,023 votes, while Stein received 50,690.

The margin was also slim in Wisconsin (11 electoral votes), with Trump winning by only 27,257 votes, receiving 1,409,467 to Clinton’s 1,382,210. Stein alone got more votes than Trump’s margin, receiving 30,980 votes, while Johnson received 106,442 votes.

[truebluegreen]

18. Gotta blame somebody, eh?

Just not--for example--the 175,000ish registered Democrats who sat out the election in Florida.

[jmg257]

20. Oh yes - certainly them too! Lots of blame to go around.

[Bengus81]

34. Holy $hit....I've never heard that number of Dems who didn't vote in FL.

What the HELL is wrong with these people?? Let me guess,now all 175k are BITCHING about Trump.

[triron]

44. Your numbers for Wisconsin and Pennsylvania

are not correct. HRC only lost wisconsin by about 22000 votes and Pennsylvania by about 42000.

[brush]

24. Were you not watching. The secretaries of state/election officials kept raising the cost of ...

of recounts (millions) where it became prohibitive. And then they had judges rule against hand counts. In some instances where recounts were done they just fed the ballots back through the same machines and got the same results. Actual hand counts of individual ballots were never going to be allowed because results might have changed the election and they weren't having any of that.

The whole recount issue was just as rigged as the election.

Jill Stein's efforts in raising millions for the recounts seemed sincere at the time but IMO she knew she was going to be labeled as the just the latest Nader unless she did something quick so she asked for funding for the recounts in those states and went along with the rigged process the election officials placed on them.

I think in Penn. nothing was eventually even done, she did pocket millions though for her efforts — maybe that was also part of her calculation. Whatever it was, she's now a much richer new Nader.

As for why didn't Hillary call for recounts, the Clintons are not naive. They've seen it before and know how it works. The results weren't ever going to be allowed to be changed.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

28. Because he set us up. Ranting about rigging before it happened. Remember, even

Obama came out saying it was crazy to think it was going to be hacked. It was a grand coup on DJT's part. Trump had ZERO reason to think it was rigged, zero. So, set the other side up not to complain and it worked like a charm. Hillary should at least be saying now that it is an insult to all of us that the prez is accusing us of cheating. I want some outrage.

[sagesnow]

10. Audit the Vote. n/t

[Equinox Moon]

15. There should be a complete audit.

Plus, we should have a regular election audit system in place. We should have random audits all over this country with EVERY election. The states and districts will not know if they will be audited and when. Just like how it is done with the IRS. It is effective in keeping the system honest.

[jmg257]

11. Although the exit polls say otherwise...it IS depressing she lost by so few votes.

Next time she'll do better!

(BTW there are only 2 ways it could have gone - well, see below maybe 3...)

Oh and on edit:

Trump defeated Clinton in Florida by a margin of 119,770 votes. Johnson alone took more than that (206,007 votes), while Stein took another 64,019. If only half of Florida’s third-party voters had chosen Clinton, she would have taken the state’s 29 electoral votes.

Trump won Pennsylvania with a total of 2,912,941 votes compared to Clinton’s 2,884,705, a difference of 68,236 votes. Johnson took more votes than the difference by himself, receiving 2.4 percent of the state, or 142,653 votes, but Stein received just 0.8 percent, or 48,912 votes.

Though Michigan's official vote tally awaits approval from the AP, Trump appears to have taken the state and its 16 electoral votes by less than a half-percent, receiving only 11,423 more votes than Clinton. Johnson won far more of the state’s votes than that, closing out with 173,023 votes, while Stein received 50,690.

The margin was also slim in Wisconsin (11 electoral votes), with Trump winning by only 27,257 votes, receiving 1,409,467 to Clinton’s 1,382,210. Stein alone got more votes than Trump’s margin, receiving 30,980 votes, while Johnson received 106,442 votes.

http://www.ibtimes.com/election-2016-results-did-gary-johnson-jill-stein-cost-hillary-clinton-election-2446589

[truebluegreen]

21. btw, as a two-time loser and at the age of 74 or so

I doubt she will put herself through all this again.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

30. VP maybe?

[treestar]

38. Why not? She would have run then for a second term

she'll still be two years younger than Donald. Donald's voters could be begging her to be President as she should have had they not made their terrible mistake.

[truebluegreen]

40. All very true.

I don't know if the enthusiasm will be there for going back to the future.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

32. Wonder how bad Jill Stein feels now that they are gutting the EPA - how sadly ironic. nt

[LisaL]

33. Those are not final numbers.

She lost be even less when all votes were tallied.

[former9thward]

43. How can you possibly think any Johnson voters would vote for Clinton?

Almost none would have. Also the Greens would have left it blank in large part. Democrats have to live with the Greens being on the ballot, like it or not, and Republicans have to live with Libertarians on the ballot. This is 2017 not 1940. The major parties will continue to lose people who identify with them. #reality.

[griloco]

12. Just like you Liberals to think that

Russian votes don't matter

[Betty88]

17. remember that when you are standing

on line for vodka.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

31. Tito's

[Sancho]

23. I suspect the "undervotes" of people who did not vote for anyone for President was the trick...

That seems to be the way elections in Fl have been manipulated on occasion - some portion of the voters mysteriously don't vote for President and the total is just barely enough to throw the election.

It doesn't seem like any real investigation or vote verification is possible with DREs, tabulators, corrupt election supervisors, etc.

[RicROC]

25. majority vote.

I've always thought in a democracy that the winner must win with 50+% of the vote. Jesse Ventura won the governorship of Minnesota with only 36.9% of the vote and that's just not right. Especially should this pertain to the Presidency even if that means we need a run-off election. But the concept should also apply down to the mayor of a small town.

At one time I would have endorsed the run-off idea, but now I like the idea of choosing 'Acceptable candidates'. With our computer systems, the voter chooses whom they feel is acceptable for that position from the list of candidates. So, maybe a first place candidate might not win with 50% of the total vote, but someone who is acceptable will win. Ideally, that person can now claim to be elected by a true majority of the voters.

[Liberal In Red State]

29. And this will continue until the liberals find a way to secure the vote - both the ability to vote

and have your vote counted. To preach showing up at the polls is not enough - liberals had the numbers on their side in 2000, 2004 and 2016. But voting machine malfunction, too few voting machines in low income and college areas, forced to vote provisional ballots, etc., scrubbing of voting rolls - liberals can throw only so many body's at the polls - if the vote isn't counted they loose.

[TheTruthIsOutThere_]

36. Votes not counted

Exactly right. The after voting polls showed Clinton on top - clearly winning. But many of their votes were not counted. An excellent documentary by Greg Palast: "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy: A Tale of Billionaires & Ballot Bandits"[link:http://www.gregpalast.com|
He investigated what actually happened and how Crosscheck (voter suppression scheme) has taken away so many votes that the Republicans can help but win.

[triron]

45. Dr. Ron Baiman did an excellent analysis

of the exit polls vs actual "vote counts".
Malcolm Nance, intelligence expert, says that Russians had clear capability to hack election results.

[butdiduvote]

37. Honestly, a big part of me believes she won

...and it's disgusting that no one thinks a reexamination of the votes is necessary given the stakes. We're literally talking the difference between placing yhe country in the hands of a competent leader and handing it over to someone who will destroy our world status.

[TheFrenchRazor]

42. true, but since the vote counting is done in secret black boxes, the evidence will never be found.