I'm gonna leave the dem party if I have to listen for one more second

[boston bean]

of rigged primary conspiracies negating Hillarys historic candidacy.

God damn what a bunch of god damn bullshit.

They are airing this conspiratorial bullshit out Cnn right now.

asking if bernie is owed an apology.

Damn she gets no god damn respect. Fuck i am so god damn sick of this sexist bullshit.

This thread is about sexism not the primary and it is commentary about a news show that is on cnn right now.

[Squinch]

1. Kick. It's maddening.

[triron]

4. 100% agree. Hillary was an awesome candidate.

Bernie not so much.

[EffieBlack]

46. But but but ... she was flawed...

Shame on her for not being perfect!

[Hortensis]

85. Well, if she isn't, THEY certainly would have to be,

disgraces to journalism, and that won't do. Clinton and then Hillary hate literally became a marketable product long ago, the production and sales of which has generated tremendous profits and supported many careers over the years.

Strange times. Makes me wish there were a hell.

[kevink077]

130. They were both incredibly qualified

The problem was an odd irrational pure hatred for her from conservatives, some independents, and some left wing voters.


Clinton would have made a great president, and would have likely made a better president than Sanders, but due to this odd hatred, Sanders was a better candidate to win.

[Cha]

2. What!? Good grief! Hell NO to the question.

[boston bean]

5. Oh yeah. Morher fucker. Our own party doing this to her.

[Eyeball_Kid]

3. The next general election is in 20 months.

[leftstreet]

6. I wasn't a Hillary fan, but her candidacy was indeed historic

Her qualifications were impeccable, her donor base faithful and impressive, and her popularity in the face of DECADES of rightwing derision - frankly, astounding.

I still can't believe Trump won

[triron]

11. He didn't.

It was stolen. I am sure of it.
One reason repukes (most) so resistant to an independent investigation
of the Russian hacking.

[StevieM]

20. Our own FBI (along with the State Dept. Inspector General's Office) was far more culpable than Putin

eom

[triron]

45. disagree

Russian hacking and disinformation (using wikileaks) was prominent.

[bettyellen]

64. The FBI magnified Putin's influence as did Wiki...

[StevieM]

66. Or you could argue it in reverse. Maybe Putin/Wiki magnified the lies of the FBI. (eom)

[bettyellen]

68. Well it was a mutual enabling pile on... if the FBI hadn't done it Wiki / Putin might have taken

Another tack. I don't know how much it matters except we need to know the truth about the contacts and connections.

[karynnj]

136. The SD IG was not responsible.

He was given the task to look at what she did and he was fair. He purposely expanded the question to look at all secretares who used email. This showed that Powell did not retain his emails either.

The IG position was vacant throughout HRC'S term. The IG was given the task of looking at this impartially. This protected Obama and all his political appointees.

The report did not charge HRC with anything, but it was clear that her first responses were not true .. which was already known as she had already changed her version. It was shown that there was no standard procedure from previous administrations.

The report included nothing that surprised anyone who followed the State Department briefings, which he had nothing to do with. All of this would not have happened had she left the work emails when she left. She knew she did nothing wrong and that there were already legitimate demands for the SD to produce them.

She shot herself in the foot with this and with giving the GS speeches. Neither were illegal, both were politically dumb. Look at her approval numbers. She was really a very very strong candidate before those issues arose. BOTH hit at a Clinton weak spot and lowered her numbers to a point where Trump had a chance.

The FBI sitting on the Putin connections and bringing up the email after both the FBI and SD had thoroughly examined it, deserves being pointed at as a factor in Trump winning.

[StevieM]

137. Thank you for providing info about the SD IG. I think you are assuming that HRC's email server

was a huge part of her life and she readily had all the answers to all questions. The American people made the same mistake.

The Comey intervention wasn't just a factor IMO, I believe it dramatically reshaped the race. Without it I believe she would have gotten 333 EVs and a 6 point win, even assuming the race had narrowed in the final two weeks.

And, of course, the FBI had already intervened with Comey's disgraceful press conference in July.

[karynnj]

139. Of course I do not think HRC'S email was a major part of who she is

I think the problem was that throughout her career, in addition to her many accomplishments and her obvious intelligence, her biggest liabilities were the perception that she was secretive and was not honest. This made this hurt more.

However, the choice was stark and Trump had more glaring ethical problems. The numbers were so close there likely are many things that could have made the difference.

[StevieM]

140. I think the American people came to a different conclusion about Trump's ethics.

Obviously they did not think he was a respectable person.

But it seems like they felt HRC's supposed ethics violations related to the functioning of government, as opposed to Donald's very real ethical lapses with seemed more personal.

The attitude seemed to be: "He said things. But she did things."

Finally, it was devastating when Comey and Chaffetz labeled her a criminal suspect under active investigation.

I don't believe that the race would have been too close without the Comey intervention with 11 days to go. And it would have been a blowout had it not been for Comey's earlier misconduct in July and throughout the investigation.

[Alice11111]

125. Yep! Yep!

[bravenak]

7. Yep

I keep thinking I like somebody until they start talking too much and showing who they are. Apologize? Uh no. Never that. Sam Ronan can go home.

[boston bean]

9. It was ugly and disgusting. I am awaiting trumps tweets tomorrow about how

The democrats themselves think hillary was corrupt and had elecetions rigged for her.

God does anyone have any fucking political god damned sense in our party??

[bravenak]

13. Too many of them are refighting the primary and think they are superior

I hate that snotty shit. Time for a drink

[boston bean]

15. they are stupid people. None of them deserve the spot. If this is the best we have god help us.

Dws smarts out them all to shame.

[bravenak]

18. That Pete Butgeig guy is ok

I would take Ellison if he would back off of some of his plans that I dont like. He has stooped trying to refight the primary and wants to move on.

[boston bean]

47. Jaime Harrison. I like him. Angela Rye supports him and i trust her judgment.

[bravenak]

48. I like him too. I would be perfectly happy with him or Pete.

One can be chair and one can be vice chair. I think I could trust either one. Harrison is on fire right now! Damn!

[calimary]

79. Yes! That kid from Indiana.

Anyone Howard Dean likes gets a second look from me. But I like his fire and his energy, his wish to focus on local and state action and build from there (which we should have been doing all along), and he's YOUNG. LOTS of tread still on his tires. And it's time we built more bench strength and develop some new powerhouses. We've got to identify some future Presidential possibilities. Can't keep going to the well with the same old faces. And they'll all be three years older by the time the next Presidential cycle rolls around.

[bravenak]

80. Yes, exactly

I could see him running for President someday, he could bring us together.

[Alice11111]

126. I liked him too. Seemed sharper and refreshing

and Dean endorsed him

[Cha]

21. What?! sam ronan said that in the debate? I've never even

heard of him until I saw you guys talking about him.

Could he be MORE Divisive?

[bravenak]

23. Oh, he was nutting up

He was feeling himself. Felt a vibe that we all know well

[Cha]

24. I'm going to have to google him.

[Cha]

27. WTF.. oh yeah, he's got a grasp on reality.. poor thing

"DNC chair candidate Sam Ronan says Dems have to own the rigging of primary presidential election to get Berniecrats back. #DNCforum."

https://www.facebook.com/ProgressiveArmy/videos/1811286332471382/?pnref=story

[bravenak]

29. Right? Fugg that sheet!

[NBachers]

74. Them's Fighting Words

Editing to post: Fuck the god damn berniecraps

[Cha]

76. Really. Everyone knows that's not true..

Link to tweet

Evidently for sam ronan..

[JI7]

56. he is just repeating talking points that we always see pasted on the internet by the usual crowd

he certainly isn't ready to head the dnc.

[bravenak]

58. He got his ideology from a meme stash on tumblr

[hrmjustin]

8. Pisses me off as well.

I love Hillary and always will.

[Cha]

28. Me too, Justin.. how dare they.

Idiots.

[Chemisse]

10. I am sick of it too.

It's bad enough Hillary lost/was cheated in the most crushing way possible. Just insult her further by talking about how it should have been Bernie instead.

Democrat solidarity is getting too strong, so it's time to pull out the Bernie card to get us bickering again.

[bdamomma]

33. it is just a tactic

or their tactic to divide the Democratic party. But there is a movement growing among people who did not vote for this con man, people in these Town Halls are mobilizing themselves against their representatives, and the representatives are running away, not a good thing if they want to be re-elected it won't happen.

They shouldn't be bringing up primary stuff either, we have bigger fish to fry right now.

[boston bean]

39. And we shoot oirselves in the foot.

This movement is a reflection of Hillarys values

They dont fucking get it.

[bdamomma]

51. I am not watching this

I think its their tactic to divide us but we are onto something and they are throwing out bait to trap us. We are trying to get our country back, and to get this cabal out. Let's keep focused.

[boston bean]

54. I'll try momma.

[AgadorSparticus]

12. That is pretty shameful. We should have better leaders than that.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. I know, some people are positively obsessed with refighting the primaries.

What they don't seem to understand is, neither Bernie nor Hillary is running again.

[Maru Kitteh]

17. DING DING DING.

We have shit to get done.

[boston bean]

19. I would love too but i cannot let this disrespect and sexism slip by.

They keep about int this rigged bullshit out there.

My god just tell trump he is right and hillary and dems are corrupt. What a bunch of fucking idiots.

[Cha]

22. Jesus.. I would be a freaking mess by now if I watched that shite.

[Maru Kitteh]

41. Yeah, that's why I had to turn that crap off. I don't have to watch

the primary refought AGAIN on my TeeVee.

I just can't take that shit any more.

And I'm going to have to grab the Rolaids and some of my mom's blood pressure medicine if you want to talk about misogyny.


Maybe a bit of liquor.

[wincest]

118. liquor and blood pressure medicine

sounds like a "fun" night. you'll definitely be relaxed.

save the rolaids for tomorrow.

[bdamomma]

42. yes for real

we need to have this con man gone. this is nothing but a distraction. Con man will be tweeting about this.

We need to be thinking about him showing his tax returns, what about the involvement of the Russians in the election, what about Russian ambassadors getting killed, Putin's attack on Ukraine, deportations....the list goes on and on.

[Alice11111]

127. How appropo...the Frozen clip

[Maru Kitteh]

16. I turned the channel. Sick of it.

MSNBC is pretty good tonight.

[Alice11111]

132. RM is good

[bdamomma]

25. This is not good

for the Democratic party any cracks in the foundation will be seen and played up by the repigs but they are in no position to throw stones they are no better.

We need a more progressive party with new ideas and fresh recruits. Just my opinion.

[boston bean]

32. Trump will tweet how even dems agree elections are righed and Hillary is corrupt.

These persons lack political common sense.

[ehrnst]

120. Or we can use the tools we have more effectively, and stop making perfect the enemy of good. (nt)

[StevieM]

26. Can anyone tell me which candidates, if any, answered (lied) and said that Bernie was robbed?

The voters put their fingers on the scale against Bernie Sanders, nobody else.

[Cha]

30. This one.. oh yeah there would have to be one of those who doesn't have a grasp on reality..

"DNC chair candidate Sam Ronan says Dems have to own the rigging of primary presidential election to get Berniecrats back. #DNCforum."

https://www.facebook.com/ProgressiveArmy/videos/1811286332471382/?pnref=story

Bullshit

[StevieM]

34. What a loathsome man. And a liar. (eom)

[Cha]

37. Yes!

[Demsrule86]

103. Who ever agreed that anything was rigged or said anyone was owed an apology needs to

be eliminated.

[Lotusflower70]

31. I just tuned in

A little late to the party but I might watch the replay. It shows the divides in the party. We have to work towards unity.

[jalan48]

35. Time to move forward

[boston bean]

36. Who you directing that comment to? me or them??

[jalan48]

38. to the Democratic party-we have bigger fish to fry than the last election i believe

[boston bean]

40. I agree.

[bdamomma]

43. just another distraction

every time when this shit comes up I think of Bannon and Putin they really love watching us shred ourselves up.

[butdiduvote]

44. YES. So much yes.

The nomination of the first female major party nominee should have been a damn unanimous celebration. Instead we had people telling us we weren't allowed to celebrate because she didn't deserve the nomination. I still have to listen to family members and friends tell me this practically every day. It's some kind of damn psychosis plaguing the left. I could see if Hillary was a genuinely crappy candidate, BUT SHE WAS PHENOMENAL. Yes, she's not perfect. When the fuck was any candidate ever perfect?

Can women just have this one cotdamn thing without people trying to deny us it? I would love to stop resenting Bernie and his supporters, but I can't when they continue to say this shit. HOW DARE THEY. Hillary deserved so much more for her accomplishments and glass ceiling breaking this past election. Instead she gets a litany of bullshit as a thanks for her many commitments she has made to this country and on behalf of women and children especially. I'M SO SICK OF IT. If the Democratic Party becomes a party that enables and legitimizes this crap, I can't support it any longer. I'll still vote for it begrudgingly because I'm not an asshole who throws vulnerable populations under the bus, unlike the lovely third-party voters this election, but I can't say I'll do it enthusiastically.

Hillary doesn't deserve this. Women don't deserve this.

[boston bean]

49. Very well said. Thank you. I agree 100%.

[Cha]

70. Thank you, butdiduvote@

[moonscape]

82. I heard the candidates trying to get away from some of

those Dana Bash questions. I'm blaming her.

[Iggo]

50. Keep fighting that primary, kids!

[Cha]

55. Tell that to Sam Ronan, kid

[boston bean]

57. Almost all of them cha. It was really disheartening and maddening.

[Cha]

59. Really?

Dare I ask what they said? Who do you like for it?

[boston bean]

62. Jaime Harrison. I like him. Perez turned out to be a real turn off for me.

[Alice11111]

128. Perez was a disappointment. Ellison wasn't all that

either. I didn't see much of it. I agree the Indiana kid endorsed by Dean stood out. Most articulate. Perez had a straggly beard or shave. Hard to look at, and he was verbose and boring.

Geez...this is so important! We are floundering without a leader. TG the people and press hsve stepped up. I guess bernie is being our leader until we get a party head.
It wasnt bernies fault that the debate took that turn...that was partly the moderator. I was always for Hillary, but i think Bernie, after he kind of recovered (damn, I still haven't recovered), has been an awesome leader in this vacuum.

[Iggo]

61. Sam ain't here.

[Cha]

65. email him.. he's started with that shite. People are commenting on it.

[kcr]

92. That's what this board is for. Completely ignoring politics and saying nothing about it!

Who knew.

[NurseJackie]

52. There are plenty of people (and factions) to blame that shit like this persists.

I share your anger and frustration.

[Jamaal510]

53. K&R

[MadDAsHell]

60. Does it really matter at this point? That "historic" candidacy bought us 4 years of Hell.

I really couldn't care less how it's "perceived" going forward; it's consequences are all too real.

[boston bean]

63. All lies matter. A lie is a lie. And it is harmful to believe them or just accept.

[forjusticethunders]

95. No, people like you did. fucking own it.

[Codeine]

109. +1 nt

[Starry Messenger]

96. Whut?

[truebluegreen]

119. Second the motion!

[m-lekktor]

135. Exactly!nt

[JTFrog]

144. Whatever helps you sleep at night. nt

[Ned Flanders]

67. Someone give me a hand here please?

Can someone explain how his comments were sexist? Or is this just that "women deserve a special place in hell if they don't support Hillary" kind of thing? Or the very real fact that a lot of people probably are sexist, as shown by not only anecdotal evidence, but by facts like the salary gap?

Why can't we recognize the good AND the bad in both HRC and Bernie?

And are there really no more dissenting voices on DU? Has the moderate-progressive groupmind so taken over that the value of diversity has been forgotten?

[Alice11111]

134. I like both now. Bernie has been great.

See my post above.
I think Bernie did some permanent damage in the primary. We need to figure out how to not kill off our candidates in the primaries. Too many debates leaves them wounded for the general. The Repubs did that in 08...wounded Romney.

I'm sure the Repubs would have shreded bernie with lies and distortions too b4 it was over.

[Brogrizzly]

69. Hillary aside, what happened to her candidacy sucks,

but I have to agree with Cha and others. It's all a moot point now, and possibly a more insidious diversion. What astounds me and also saddens me is just the blatant sexism, mysoginy, and downright meanness this ass in the whitehouse is openly expressing towards women. When I see the clips of how he is with his wife I feel disgusted. When I see the way he speaks to a female journalist, I just feel shame and embarrassment. Because he is not and never will be a person who can look at a woman with respect, only ever objectification. I pity him sometimes to be that unaware, to be that clueless. I just don't have the words to describe the contempt for his actions, especially towards women. I worry for my daughter, but then I remind myself of just how strong a woman can be, and say he can go fuck off now.

[Jakes Progress]

71. Yes. That kind of shit just makes the kochs laugh their fat asses off.

All this crap about how we need to go with 10% of the party to win will get us 9 conservative judges.

All this because the assholes who voted third party, didn't vote, or trashed Hillary can't admit what they have done.

[Cha]

72. Exactly, Jakes

[Cha]

81. I know right!

[BlueMTexpat]

89. Mahalo, Cha!

I am not sure how I would like to see this DNC election pan out. I still haven't seen the speeches/responses and it sounds as if there are good candidates as well as a couple duds like Ronan. I lean Perez because, from all I have read, it sounds as if he knows how to organize, manage, unite and inspire. But it also sounds as if the event was not necessarily a shining moment for him. Still, I tend to judge people on actual results and actions, rather than by single speeches. I notice that both Howard Dean and Martin O'Malley - either or both of whom I would very much to have seen in the running and who were "forced out" early on - seem to like Peter B, whose major defect seems to be his last name.

But if the final results cause joy only among BOBers, I will have to acknowledge that those things that I have always believed in and stood for are no longer valued by the majority of those in the DNC. I will literally have been "left behind."

[butdiduvote]

83. Perfectly said

Hillary is owed SO, SO many apologies that she will never get because hating Hillary Clinton is in vogue. It makes my heart sick for her.


The election in which we were staring down the barrel of a Trump presidency was not the time to pull the many infuriating stunts Sanders pulled. And we're just expected to stand by and accept that their side had real grievances, try to understand them, etc etc. Fuck that. They could have aired their grievances in a way that didn't fatally harm our nominee. They selfishly chose not to, and now I am at real risk of losing my health insurance. Fuck these assholes who want to run the Democratic Party into the ground for selfish, frankly white male, reasons.

[BlueMTexpat]

87. I sincerly hope that you

will NOT lose your health insurance!

All this extra angst has been selfishly foisted upon us all by those steeped in white - primarily, but not exclusively, male - privilege.

I am also still appalled by how many of my white female peers let both Hillary and ALL of their sisters down, not only in the US but around the world. 2016 was no time to stand on purist principles, especially when NO human being is perfect. But to vote for the WORST possible alternative ever or to enable his election by NOT voting for Hillary is beyond excuse. That they then have the utter gall to BLAME Hillary for this literally renders me apoplectic and certainly is no selling point.

I will not ever be able to forgive them and their male counterparts. The 2016 election was a line in the sand for me and I am not sure whether we will ever be able to recover.

[joshcryer]

88. Bernie "Wait Eight Weeks and Three Days to Endorse" Sanders...

...is owed an apology?

[BlueMTexpat]

90. Exactly! eom

[melman]

75. lol @ 'this thread is not about the primary'

Of course it is. Just saying it's not doesn't make it actually not.

[Cha]

78. That's on sam ronan.. he's the one who brought it.. in the debate.

[Iggo]

110. Word.

[riderinthestorm]

115. +1. SMH nt

[marybourg]

77. This is enterntianment.

If nobody watched, it wouldn't exist.

[Cha]

84. I encourage you to read this inspiring poem, boston..

The part about Hillary is beautiful

A Poem About TRUMP by a Teacher He Undoubtedly Hates in Bellevue

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10028695335#top

[George Eliot]

86. Do not agree. Wish you could mo

[NCTraveler]

94. No doubt it is about sexism.

Not supporting her is one thing. To say is was stolen from the rich white guy is completely different. She was one of the most qualified and transparent to ever run for the Presidency.

And you aren't going anywhere. This is the Democratic Party, not the Independent Party.

[Blue_Tires]

97. CNN is just trolling and trying to fan the flames again...

Guess the folks in Atlanta must be bored...

[LexVegas]

98. What idiots are saying that? nt

[bigtree]

100. k&r

Link to tweet

[Demsrule86]

101. Yes...there is a reason this happens...

If you create more democratic divisions...the GOP wins...divided we fall. This BS cost us the election...no apologies either.

[DefenseLawyer]

102. When you leave you should form the Clinton Party

It's doubtful you can get Hillary to run again but Chelsea has lots of potential. After all, everything that matters is about the Clintons and only the Clintons.

[Demsrule86]

104. I feel the same about supporters of the independent (now) candidate.

[The Polack MSgt]

106. So Mr. Ronan just went from

"Who is this guy?" all the way over to "Fuck this guy" in my book.

He is efficient though. That took almost no time at all.

[itcfish]

107. That's not the Democrats

I love Bernie, but let's face it, he was never a democrat.

[Jim Lane]

108. Criticism of the superdelegate rule is not sexism.

I don't like the term "rigged" because it's too vague, but it's clear that the nomination fight wasn't completely perfect. The most notable example is that thousands of people in New York had their registrations changed, without their knowledge, so that they couldn't vote in the Democratic primary. IIRC a couple Board of Elections officers have been suspended while the investigation goes forward. I've heard no indication that the Clinton campaign played a role in this, but my impression is that most of the affected voters were Bernie supporters.

Even if that illegal maneuver benefited a highly qualified candidate whose candidacy was historic because of her gender, it was still illegal. It should be thoroughly investigated and the guilty parties punished, with steps being taken to prevent a recurrence.

People who say "rigged" also criticize the superdelegate rule as undemocratic. They point out, correctly, that Clinton had a big leg up on winning the nomination before a single vote was cast. One specific proposed reform is to modify or eliminate the rule. There are colorable arguments on both sides, but it's not sexism and it's not refighting the primary for Democrats to want to change the current setup.

[lapucelle]

129. The Brooklyn purge was found to have affected both candidates equally, although

some data suggests that Clinton was hurt more.

As for the super delegate system, one of its architects was Tad Devine, Sanders campaign manager. And few Democrats (including DWS) had any problem switching their commitment from Clinton to Obama in 2008 when they realized that Obama was the stronger candidate.

It's Hillary who is owed the apology.

http://www.wnyc.org/story/brooklyn-voter-purge-age-clinton-sanders/

http://time.com/4301762/new-york-voting-problems-hillary-clinton/

http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2016/06/no-brooklyn-voter-purge-was-not.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511240907

[Jim Lane]

141. I dislike both "rigged" and "___ is owed the apology"

I don't see any of that as helpful -- but I also don't think it's helpful to try to suppress discussion of the lessons to be learned from 2016.

The 2016 process resulted in the nomination of a female candidate. That does not mean, however, that any criticism of that process is "sexist bullshit."

Re superdelegates, I said that there were colorable arguments on both sides. What's not a colorable argument is "Tad Devine was one architect of the system in 1984 and thereafter was Bernie's campaign manager in 2016 and therefore no one who supported Bernie is allowed to call for a change in the system." I'm not clear whether that's the meaning of your reference to Devine but, if it is, it's a total non sequitur.

My bottom line on the New York purge was, "It should be thoroughly investigated and the guilty parties punished, with steps being taken to prevent a recurrence." The links you gave reinforce the conclusion that the law was broken. This is an instance in which the process that resulted in a historic nomination was clearly broken. Historic result or no, it is not sexism to oppose illegal purges.

[lapucelle]

142. The investigation is ongoing and some of those responsible

have been suspended without pay awaiting the outcome. No one is suggesting that the slipshod purge of inactive voters in Brooklyn should not be investigated. It is the assumption that the purge benefited Clinton that's problematic. That particular story line generally comes from either those who know little about NY politics or who have a vested interest in pimping a narrative.

It is an interesting distortion to extend the statement that "Tad Devine, one architects of the system, was Bernie's campaign manager in 2016," with your own conclusion "and therefore no one who supported Bernie is allowed to call for a change in the system."

People have been aware (including Devine) of the problem since at least 2008. He should have been more forthcoming with Sanders supporters concerning the reasoning behind the system. He had no problem being honest in his 2008 NYT editorial when he did not have a dog in the race. My only suggestion is that those who want to reform the party and change its rules join it first.

Clinton did not call for the elimination of super delegates in 2008 when the system quite possibly cost her the nomination. She led and united her coalition at the convention behind the Democratic nominee who went on to win an historic election. She did the right thing.

I'm not big on demanding apologies either, but CNN (among others) pushed their ridiculous, divisive "rigged system" narrative to the extent that it impacted this election and helped give us President Trump. They owe us all an apology.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/nyregion/board-of-elections-brooklyn-votes.html

http://gothamist.com/2017/01/13/doj_sues_boe_brooklyn_voter_rolls.php

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/opinion/10devine.html

[Jim Lane]

148. Good! We should get all the facts.

You write, "It is the assumption that the purge benefited Clinton that's problematic." I'll add: The assumption that any such criticism is motivated by sexism is also problematic.

The undeniable fact is that we had a hotly contested primary race. Tempers flared. You could see it right here on DU, where the level of name-calling in both directions was really bad. Given the general level of hostility and suspicion, coupled with the undeniable fact that Clinton was much more plugged into the party establishment and public officials (especially in New York), it's not surprising that some Sanders supporters were quick to assume the worst.

But, to return to the subject of the OP, was that assumption based on sexism? I say it wasn't. If Clinton had decided not to run, we probably would've had a similar struggle between Sanders on the left and either Biden or Cuomo or someone else like that on the right. (The right of the Democratic Party, that is. Clinton, Biden, and Cuomo are all to the right of Sanders, within the bounds of the usual oversimplification of putting everyone on a left-right scale.) In a race between Sanders and a male opponent, most of the same stuff would have gone on.

The same is true of the superdelegate issue. The superdelegates would have gone strongly for Biden or Cuomo over Sanders, and Sanders supporters would have groused about the superdelegate system.

You complain about my alleged "distortion" of your comment about Devine. That's unjustified, considering that I said expressly that I wasn't sure what you meant. I was trying to figure it out. You evidently disclaim that interpretation but your follow-up doesn't clarify matters for me. The best I can make out is that you think Tad Devine is a hypocrite and Hillary Clinton is noble. Hold those opinions if you want, but they aren't relevant to the question whether criticism of the superdelegate system is sexism, and they aren't relevant to the question whether the system should be eliminated or modified (well, further modified, because some changes were made at the 2016 convention).

I personally have no interest in the question whether Tad Devine or Hillary Clinton will go to Heaven. I don't even believe in the place.

[lapucelle]

150. My response was to you.

You're the one who brought up the problems in the New York primary. You are mistaken in your assumption that the Brooklyn debacle hurt Sanders more than Clinton. The New York State Board of Elections and the DOJ are conducting an investigation. At this point, however, it seems more likely that it was an instance of malfeasance rather than a criminal act.

I don't think that Ted Devine is evil, but I do think he was disingenuous. I'm sorry if you're having a hard time understanding my posts, but that is no reason to either extend or reduce them to the point where they become your opinion rather than mine and then expect me to defend them.

[Jim Lane]

154. I'm glad to see that you, at least, aren't pushing the "sexism" smear

Was New York an instance of malfeasance or a criminal act in support of one Presidential campaign or a criminal act for some other purpose (related to the June and September primaries for other offices)? My point is not to give a definitive answer to that question; that's why I support an investigation. My point is to oppose the assumption that any opinion that reflects badly on Clinton must be based on sexism.

You think that Devine, in the course of pursuing what he saw as his candidate's interests against Clinton, was disingenuous. If you think that he also would have been disingenuous on behalf of Sanders against Biden or Cuomo, then you're analyzing the situation without invoking sexism, which IMO is the correct approach.

What's most important re superdelegates is that consideration of whether to modify or eliminate the system should be considered on its merits. Criticisms of the system are not "sexist bullshit" just because the superdelegates overwhelmingly voted for a woman in 2016.

[ehrnst]

143. Yep - Why would a candidate/Party supress votes in an area that was heavily for that candidate?

Makes no sense, but sometimes sense is a rare commoddity.

[lapucelle]

145. In addition, the bungled "update" of the voting rolls

which resulted in the Brooklyn purge was begun in late 2013 / early 2014. Afterwards the NYC Board of Elections failed to sync its system with the NYS Board of Elections data base, so voters who were purged were not aware of the fact if they checked their registration on line.

But somehow a clear cut case of bureaucratic incompetence and negligence became a grand conspiracy to "rig the system" that began in Brooklyn way back in 2013.

http://gothamist.com/2017/01/13/doj_sues_boe_brooklyn_voter_rolls.php

[Gothmog]

111. I agree with you one hundred percent

I am also tired of these complaints

[justhanginon]

112. I most wholeheartedly agree.

[RowdieTurtle]

113. Id luv to reply but...

Im new here. Isnt this whole post against the rules of the site?

Don't keep fighting the last Democratic presidential primary
Regardless of whether you supported a winning candidate or a losing candidate, do not prolong the agony of the last Democratic presidential primary by continuing to pick fights, place blame, tear down former primary candidates, bait former supporters, or do anything else to pour salt on old wounds.

Why we have this rule: Most of our members want this to be forward-looking, friendly community that is focused on creating a better future for our country. Continuing to rehash old fights that have already been resolved is divisive and counter-productive.

That said, ill just say i avidly followed the primaries and i wholeheartedly disagree with the Hillary/DNC apologists and the premise that there was no corruption or favorism in the process. I further believe that the reason Hillary lost was ultimately inherent in the candidate herself. I could give numerous examples and proofs. DWS.

[onecaliberal]

114. She won by three million fucking votes. Period!

NO SARCASM!

[ProudProgressiveNow]

116. K&R nt

[MatthewStLouis]

117. Right, it's BS!

Right wingers LOVE this conspiracy theory; trying to de-legitimize the Democratic Party and the primary process. Superdelegates and party leaders advocating for Hillary may have been annoying to some, but when added up: Bernie still wasn't there.

I supported Bernie in the Primary and Hillary won the Primary fair and square. And like every other sane democrat I supported her wholeheartedly in the General!

[LisaM]

121. Like a dog with a bone. They won't let go.

The primaries were not rigged, and furthermore, if you want to talk about intimidation at the caucuses, the Bernie people should be the ones issuing apologies!

[retrowire]

122. How do Diebold voting trashcans work?

Like, when you insert your ballot, the counter on the lid is supposed to click up right?

[Stinky The Clown]

123. Right there with you

[oldcynic]

124. An hypothesis about Hillary and Pavlov with Mouselinni thrown in.

Last edited Thu Feb 23, 2017, 10:41 PM - Edit history (1)

Picture this: A cute Yankee girl with a political husband in Arkansas. The other good ol' boy Dixiecrats see her as a biddable or beddable young thing to be manipulated or used as they please. All they had to do is teach her southern manners. This is where she made the BIG MISTAKE.
She told them to fuck off: she was there to work, not flatter egos or waste time baking cookies. She has thus never been forgiven for:
1. telling pussy grabbers to fuck themselves
2. being smarter than her male counterparts
3. looking so good and still refusing pussy grabbers.
4. being female (also 1st)
She so offended male egos that they decided to teach her and that no-good liberal husband of hers a lesson. Hillary also upset political wives by making them look just deplorable. Nothing is nastier than a southern belle scorned by another woman.
Dixiecrats and Republicans combined forces (again) to attack Hillary from two sides. First, they used Mouselinni's maxim of 'tell a lie often enough and long enough and it will become truth' with repetitive, costly, pointless investigations. Secondly, adding Pavlov's technique, supposedly sensible people were trained to salivate like rabid dogs whenever they heard "email", "Benghazi', "Whitewater", etc. She is not president because people are dogs.

[Alice11111]

138. At the March, we talked about where Hillary Hating started

one evening. I said when she said, I guess I could stay home and have teas and bake cookies. I remember laughing when I heard her and liking her spunk. It was like a seed that started a hate cult that grew into a movement. Men and a lot of women were so threatened by that. It was so in vogue to hate her.It just kept snowballing, and it was this irrational, intense hate. Even at the march, some Dems, more conservative, were saying she brought it on herself...Benghazi, etc. I said bullshit. Whitewater was a witch hunt, in which they would have found a needle in a haystack, if anything had been there.
I agree 25-30 years of repeated lies . She's not perfect and made some mistakes for sure, but the vituperative hate mongering would have gone on even if she hadn't had a private email server.
Trump just did worse in Yemen than hillary ever did, and he didn't even bother to watch...tweeting. It was a news cycle at most. No investigation. Nada. His next outrageous act or acts knocked it off...he plays that.
Outrageous what the Repubs and many Dems did to her, to all of us really.

[MADem]

131. A lot of that shit comes out of the same troll farms as the Trumphumping crap

in the run up to the election.

Alt-Right/Alt-Left, it's all the same bullshit. The thing to remember is this--it's not REAL.

Talk about "fake news" -- a lot of this poutrage and "What If-ing" is pushed by people who have no interest in actually putting a "progressive" or a "socialist" in the WH....the goal is to keep Trump in play OR better still, keep us all unbalanced/in-fighting.

And plenty of well-meaning True Believers pick up on the manufactured bullshit, believe there's actually an appetite for that crap (there isn't) and pass it on to the rest of us who are irritated and 'resisting.'

Guys like Michael Moore or Bernie Sanders are NOT the leaders of this resistance. They're free to chime in/be supportive but I think most people prefer a more organic and bottom up approach to this. The days of ManSplaining or "I'm Famous So Listen to MEEEEE"-Splaining are over. People are sick to death of that shit.

[RowdieTurtle]

146. The Bottom Line

Look, we can go over what did or didnt happen and whos to blame for the next 4 years. We're clearly not going to agree. What we should be doing is talking about where the democratic party and the progressive and liberal movement is going and what we need to do to get there.

Lets talk about Indivisible. Lets talk about town halls and activism. Lets talk about how we fight these deceitful, soulless greedmonger fascists.

You may not like Bernie, or agree with his socialism (you should on both counts ) but who else is out there hammering these guys and fighting for us? Liz Warren? Sure, luv her. Keith Ellison? Tom Perez? Sure we can talk about it. Who else? Movements need leaders. Even grassroot movements.

Obama did some real good things. He was the sun trying to shine thru the dark clouds of a obstructionist republican congress. Sadly, they were successful more than not. We need to be realistic. We cant follow the right's path and shout down dissenting voices just because they disagree with us or make us face the fact the we are not lily white or affected by the corruption of big money in politics. Where the rubber meets the road, it costs millions, tens of millions or more to get elected these days. Very few are willing or able to do it without special interest money (Bernie .

Like it or not, some people i wont name are very cosy with Wall Street and the big banks. Some are very cosy with Big Pharm, some with the military industrial complex. Hillary was a international ambassador for the fracking industry. The party had to be pushed, against strong resistance to the left. Weve lost sight of who we are as a party and who we represent.

Incrementalism isnt the answer. Bold change is needed. Our country is more divided than any time since the civil war. The system itself is broken and now Trump and Bannon want to smash all the pieces. We need to rebuild from the ground up, not just put more lipstick on the pig.

[oldcynic]

147. Excellent point. May I suggest we start here...

(my editing)
When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the law and ethics entitles them, a decent respect to the opinions of humanity requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all persons are created equal, that they are endowed with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among cultures, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that humanity are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

[okieinpain]

149. im going to be honest and say i have lost some respect for her

because of the way they carried out the end of the general campaign.

[poli3]

151. Her only problem was courting republicans

It made me cringe hearing her every time she praised paul ryan and the republicans knowing that they were going to stab her in the back eventually anyway. They just happened to do it sooner with comey, rather than later.

[okieinpain]

153. No as it turns out her campaign was very amateurish

and made terrible decision. As an example the distribution of her campaign funds was a slap in the face of the AA community.

[fallrey]

152. check out Joseph Cannon's blog on why Hillary is a target again

[link:http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2017/02/the-bureau-bernie-bros-and-bamboozlers.html|