General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy are Americans so resistant to Universal Healthcare?
when it's in their best interest on all counts...so my taxes pay for a little boy to get a heart transplant in Oklahoma or pays for lifesaving heart meds for a woman in Florida? It's called being a fucking human being...
I just don't understand why this is such a difficult concept...pathetic and sad...
Happy Sunday!
nikibatts
(2,198 posts)Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)canetoad
(17,202 posts)It was the cold war/socialist/commie thing. That's in the past.
These days, it's down to the pure, nasty politics of resentment.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)they haven't a clue what it means. Geez, taking the mafia middle man, the health insurance companies, out of the system, so patient's could get treatment, we can't let them figure that out. We must bury the facts, in the name of God and the insurance industry.
How great would it be for businesses if they didn't have to worry about insurance for their employees? Huge reduction in overhead. Wind to their sails. Bury this obvious fact.
How much would we save if children and adults could get Healthcare before a minor problem becomes a permanent life threatening problem? No common sense allowed.
Why are we the only country in the western civilized world
that pursues this indulgence of greed on the sick with budget busting, backbreaking, life destroying consequences?
I think it is still the ignorance of the socialist threat, AND pure nasty resentment that anyone but the rich should have dignity of life.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)irrationally hostile and downright immoral.
But let's toss in how this happened: Huge money was spent to grow normal right-wing resistance to progressive programs far beyond what it had been -- with the end goal of eliminating most to all (depending on how extreme the ideology) taxes and regulations on the wealthy--permanently.
Obamacare was a real setback for anti-tax plutocrats, to put it mildly. They were planning to destroy Medicare and the VA when they had a whole new huge redistributive program they had to destroy first. Ryan's disastrous "little" step toward dismantling the ACA would have cut nearly $1,000,000,000,000 (trillion!) from its budget. Poor dears...
Btw, the $1 trillion "saved" was intended to temporarily offset big tax cuts planned with their big tax "reform" package.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)There's some ugly facts here. Warning this will probably offend a lot of people. You cannot forget one thing about America; this nation was founded by people who had a lot of violence done against them, especially in the United Kingdom. The reason why we have so many Protestants, especially Calvinist like the Baptists, is that European nations treated them like crap. By treating these people like crap, European nations used the idea of charity and aid as a means of social warfare, note I did not say social engineering, I said warfare. If you can feed the sector of society that obeys you, and also point to that of her part of society and say "God wants them to die, aren't you happy you are not them" you have a means of keeping the people who want your head divided. All European nations did this, but you excel that it like England, because they used religion to divide the Celts who they dominated.
Now comes colonialism, which is very good for the kings and queens in two ways: one, it allows you to go ahead and get rid of a lot of those riffraff outcast who would otherwise be staying in your own country and waiting for revolution to happen. It is no accident that England set many of its Calvinist to America, in particular the parts that are now considered red states. It's no accident that the Confederate battle flag is basically a Union Jack modified.
The X-shaped bars represent Saint Patrick and Saint Andrew, the patron saints of Scotland and Ireland who happen to have a lot of those social outcast English liked to kill. The more typical cross is the symbol of St. George, the English saint associated with imperialism and the Church of England, so it's no accident that when the battle flag of Dixie was made, it celebrated the Celtic heritage, and snubbed the English one.
So what is all this bit about Celts and flags have to do with healthcare? The people that made up America were outcast that were used to having to fend for themselves and also who were told they could go from being dirt poor to getting land. All they have to do was kill whoever the home country considered needed killing, take their land, and to remember to send all that sugar tobacco and cotton to the home country. When we kicked the English out, we changed empires into corporations, so that whole generations of people, black and white were always kept in an debt so that a corporation can demand the fruits of their labors, and sadly, many of those churches thought that was a good thing. The system kept people busy, making sure that life have to be as trouble lest they start doing things like reading books.
Does anyone think it is an accident that the Republicans are trying to peel back child labor laws and anything that allows people to avoid and pay debt? A free people will demand respect and accountability, something our lead have avoided since the very founding of the nation. Of course one of the main ways that even middle-class people get in the debt is healthcare. If you can make even rich people fear about one thing can go ahead and make paupers of their children, you have control. I'm not talking about political power, I am talking control. Of course, since many of those people that founded our nation were used to having to take something from each other rather than add it into a pool, you will have people fighting for pennies instead of the dollars they could save. It is the main reason why, as you nation as we are, the government and basic culture has remained the same since 1776, and that's if you don't count the colonial era, which honestly we should.
Think of how many nations have at the same governments since 1776. Think of how many of those nations have not only maintain their original land, but tripled in size and population. I know that the phrase "exceptional nation" is overused and misused, especially when it is set as a compliment (which it is not very often). However, the truth is we cannot overlook the fact that we are different than most nations. Yes Canada and Australia were both colonial Enterprises, however, perhaps by the nature of having very hostile geography, a.k.a. hostile Canadian winters and hostile Australian heat, or by the nature that England did not use them as a direct steam release for the Calvinist movements that were literally threatening to destroy the United Kingdom at the top United States was founded, they were different. It's odd to think that the fact that America was so ready to grow all that sugar tobacco and cotton could've been a cultural pain, but it was.
So to sum it up, America from its founding was made of people were used to looking at each other of some measure of hostility, and they thought of government largess as a political weapon to be used to enslave and control. It's easy to go ahead and judge, the fact is the people who founded this nation as a colonial enterprise did not want various people to trust each other, if the French did not go ahead and do their best to support the Thomas Jefferson's and George Washington's, we might very well still be part of what eventually became Canada. FDR did a lot to undo this sort of culture, but keep my the Democrats only get a chance to speak when the Republican administration has done a terrible job of crashing the car.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)Mendocino
(7,517 posts)I quite agree that the ultimate goal of the hard right is to push this country back into a feudal state. They want an uneducated and desperate society willing to work for virtually for nothing for the benefit of the few.
mountain grammy
(26,663 posts)You've summed it up nicely, especially this: "Democrats only get a chance to speak when the Republican administration has done a terrible job of crashing the car."
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)WiffenPoof
(2,404 posts)I had recently learned (to my dismay), that my heritage of Scots-Irish ultimately became the people I have despised most in my adulthood... The so-called "poor white trash" or (more kindly) the Hillbillies of the deep South.
Love your reference of the Confederate Battle Flag (stars and bars) which reflects even the current day national flag of Scotland.
Arkansas Granny
(31,537 posts)is nothing more than legalized theft. They don't want their money to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them.
It doesnt help that opponents refer to it as socialized medicine. That makes it sound like a welfare program which would benefit all those freeloaders out there.
Sculpin Beauregard
(1,046 posts)Money to pay for their Govt pensions and their healthcare.
Also, who bailed out the astonishing thieves of Wall Street? Why isn't THAT socialist?
Ugh, it is sickening.
bagelsforbreakfast
(1,427 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Good at destroying, but it is much harder to create (paraphrasing). I despise him, but he did own up, unlike Dumpty Diapers, who had not even read, much less understood, the bill. Frankly, DT didn't give a damn, it was just about winning and satisfying his vengefulness against Obama. Ryan cared a lot about his draconian take down of the people, but he was smart enough to tell DT to withdraw it. DT still played chicken until the end, and then took no responsibility...everyone's fault but his owm. What a vengeful, petty, pathetic fragment he is.
yuiyoshida
(41,868 posts)or words to that affect. Fuck Republicans!
GoCubsGo
(32,099 posts)LastLiberal in PalmSprings
(12,601 posts)It's using your taxes to pay for a black or Hispanic or other person of color's little boy to get a heart transplant. We all know that "they" are just looking for a government handout without working. (sarcasm)
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)If they can't delude themselves into thinking that they are better than "THEM", it is an uncomfortable space. They are miserable if they can't have their "ism"s.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)We literally overthrew people who governed us... it's the reason for a lot of our issues as a country.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Distrust of the throne and parliament was neither the catalyst nor the reason for the conflict.
Jesus... are people learning history via bumper stickers and the back of cereal boxes now?
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,375 posts)The insurance industry will buy politicians, hire the politicians' relatives, whatever it takes to keep the non-productive-but-lucrative insurance industry going.
Same as when the pharmaceutical industry bought congress during Medicare Part D vote, in order to forbid Medicare from negotiating better drug prices.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/1/4/821644/-
tblue37
(65,502 posts)advanced propaganda techniques, (2) they have been taught to hate the very idea of taxes (even on the wealthiest) and to misunderstand what taxes can do for us, and (3) they hate the idea that a benefit paid for by taxes might go to PoC.
Historic NY
(37,457 posts)some people are special.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)Long wait times to see doctors. That sort of thing.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Can you imagine if the fire and police agencies worked this way? It should be a basic right for any nation that collects taxes from it's citizens.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)Like police and fire? I think that it would be a good start.
democratisphere
(17,235 posts)Countries Universal Healthcare programs. redumbliCONs ONLY want their free market healthcare, attached to wallstreet, where prices and costs are outrageousley insane and ever escalating. redumbliCONs only care about making the wealthy wealthier and NEVER will care about keeping their constituents healthy.
mountain grammy
(26,663 posts)to pass Medicare in the 60's, St Ronnie made a commercial whining how someday our grandchildren will ask us what America was like when it was free, you know, before Medicare..
I remember my mom watching that commercial and saying, you dumb old man. There won't be any grandparents if we don't pass Medicare!
elias7
(4,032 posts)Whether that be taken out of your wages for employer covered insurance, taken out of your earnings and tax deducted if you buy it yourself, or pay it through higher income tax for "socialized" coverage. it all ends up the same. Someone needs to explain this to those who think they'll pay more for single payer...
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)Tatiana
(14,167 posts)They actually don't mind a class (or maybe caste) system here. They see certain people as not worthy to keep alive.
That is that sad, but honest truth. They could care less about the elderly, except, of course, when it's themselves. Witness this debate from back in 2009:
http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/13/limit-on-health-care-for-elderly-terminally-ill/
Instead of asking if we should "limit" care for elderly people, how about asking how we can bring the costs down and treat them in the best, most comfortable manner?
Mariana
(14,861 posts)have shitty healthcare. They've been told this for years and years. They believe that the old people, the disabled, and people with expensive to treat conditions in these countries are routinely written off and left to die in order to save money. They believe most people who need lifesaving procedures die before they can get them because of waiting lists. And so on.
radical noodle
(8,016 posts)or have an operation... as if we don't do that already.
ismnotwasm
(42,022 posts)What I tell people is this "Universal health care is the goal--everyone should agree with. The only thing to disagree with is how we get there"
Freddie
(9,275 posts)I'm presuming you mean single payer and not "achieving universal healthcare" by a Swiss-style system like the ACA is emulating.
Everyone knows how we ended up with the employer-provided health instance norm back in the 40's. For most people, back then, not having insurance was not the worst thing in the world. A doctor visit was $20, a standard stay in the hospital (childbirth, appendectomy) might have been $50. Penicillin and aspirin were cheap. There were no CT scans, MRIs, etc. Got cancer, heart disease, complications in childbirth? You died.
So we limped along for years until advances in medicine made it impossible for all but the very rich to "self-pay". And most able-bodied adults and their families got good, comprehensive insurance mostly paid by their employers. These people - many of whom can't comprehend that not everyone has this privilege- are not willing to give this up for something unsure and possibly not as good as what they have now.
And there's the bogeyman of "higher taxes!" Not considering that the higher taxes would be offset by no insurance premiums, no insurance coming out of your paycheck and your employer paying in a flat % of wages rather than your insurance. The majority of employers would come out ahead.
So the only way to sell this would be to make sure that the health care we get under single payer would be as good as most employer plans.
Bozvotros
(786 posts)We don't even recognize how ridiculously inadequate Medicare is. We need to have part A, B, C, D? Plus your choice of 50 supplements to fill in the holes? Like seniors need to approach choosing healthcare like it was part lottery and part Chinese food menu? And that doesn't even touch end of life custodial care needs. If your misfortune is to need close supervision and assistance with basic physical care because you have an incurable debilitating condition we can't consider that health care. Sorry.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)luckily I have some background in the HII, it's massively confusing trying to choose a supplement. Cannot imagine trying to decipher it without some knowledge, even basic.
Bozvotros
(786 posts)There's no reason to have four parts to Medicare. Part A just covers hospitalization. Why did we decide to prioritize only hospital payment with our payroll deduction? Why isn't major medical and pharmaceutical costs part of our Medicare deduction during our working years? I'm sure there's a very good reason that doesn't involve lobbying by hospitals, big pharma and insurance companies. Or blood sucking parasitic vermin. But I repeat myself.
radical noodle
(8,016 posts)and I don't find it to be inadequate. The good thing is that if for example, you choose Plan F, then all Plan F policies pay the same thing. I do think there should be better management of end of life planning and assisted living because that's pretty unavailable to most people.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)radical noodle
(8,016 posts)It's what my husband and I have and we never pay a dime, but there are other plans that are cheaper and pay less. Part D can (and should be) shopped every year because that's the best way to get good deals. It's very easy too, since Medicare has an online questionnaire that allows us enter our meds and a list comes up with the best plans for those meds. Then we compare them and take the one best suited to us.
It isn't all that difficult except that some people think they can get something for nothing, which rarely works in their favor. Medicare Advantage has shown to be a problem in some areas. Docs don't like it and I know of at least one company that folded and left their clients high and dry.
With Medicare A & B, along with Plan F and Part D we pay about $346 per month (each). I can tell you that when I was getting insurance through my employer, the last year I worked there (4-1/2 years ago) cost a little over $1000 per month for each of us, $2000 per month for both. My employer paid it but I was the controller so I know what we paid. Medicare is a good deal.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)My costs are about $450+, plus a lot on meds, some of which are not covered, Cigna. One reason it is more expensive is I live in a low population state, so there are few providers.
Also, I have a disability, so they charge more for Supp F and Plan D.
You have convinced me to shop more for plan D. The first year was good, but now they cover much less. I paid out of pocket this month around $700 for Rx on my Plan D. (My eyedrops, which I am supposed to take every morning and night, I take once about every 3 days or when my eyes really hurt or I can't see. My Dr. has written and called the insurance company. Just one example.) That, to me, is not good Healthcare. There are many of us who take only minimal amounts of our medications because of cost, but it causes continuing damage to our health.
I was transferred off Obamacare to Medicare because I had a Disabilty. That was okay though. It is more complicated, and I pay more overall and more for Rx. It is much better than the private group in terms of cost, but my income is low now.
I was on a group work for $1200 month. As I was jumping on Obamacare as fast as it was available, my work went to $1600. Private business as a lawyer, so I paid everything. I had lost over $200,000 in savings on medical bills, plus not working. Houses were paid off, but I had to mortgage. (Car ran stop sign. 1 dead. I lived.) Obamacare was very good, a blessing to me. I'm one of the people Paul Ryan dreams about, who lost everything because of failures in the healthcare system...the thought of it just makes him high on endorphins. (I could easily say it in uncouth terms.) He tried to get his dream bill through, so there would be many more of us. The Repubs just want to increase the divide in the class structure. Roman aristocracy.
radical noodle
(8,016 posts)and shows just some of the things that need to be fixed. I wish they'd start by trying to fix the cost of prescription drugs which would take some negotiating but might help.
I have a friend with Multiple Myeloma and after trying many treatments that don't seem to work for her, they want her to take something that costs... wait for it... $16,000 per MONTH. Who could afford that?
I hope things start to go better for you.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Is insane, rspecially while sick. So hypocritical. Repubs are robots without hearts.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)...and that's the best part of our healthcare system.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)We need one federal program that provides free health care for all til death and with death benefits. Nice and simple.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)I completely support universal healthcare, but I would be lying if I said that the health insurance I have received through my employers wasn't excellent.
Bozvotros
(786 posts)And it should be available to everyone. The feds could increase Medicare deductions to cover a good coverage Health Care plan throughout your lifespan and your employer could increase your salary by the amount they were spending on your health insurance.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)The answer is if you're in any sort of skilled, unionized or public sector employment the status quo is probably somewhere between good to great. So you're trying to sell a solution to a problem a lot of people just won't perceive to exist or believe will be a worse personal outcome.
I support universal healthcare, but don't ask me how to sell that to those who like myself have had good to great coverage from the time they started working.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)Not for someone to have better healthcare than the person next to them.
There is no reason that a member of Congress should have better healthcare than a worker at McDs.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)subsidized insurance! I know of about 20 who rage against Obamacare because of the subsidies. Yet, through coverage by state hospitals, teacher insurance, universities, government employees, government contractors, Congress, THEY get subsidies, for which the private sector, small businesses, owners and workers, pay more in taxes, and more in insurance premiums to offset their low rates.
The hypocrisy and ignorance drives me crazy!
I wasn't a Sanders supporter (but I would have been if he were the nominee), but I am now. I just wish he were at least 10 years younger, and could make it for 12 years.
I have an Aunt and Uncle mid 80s, who still work 60+ hours per week, though they are wealthy, and their minds are sharp...so, who knows, maybe Bernie can make it.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Old people and middle-class people with good jobs with good benefits already get good healthcare, and they are massive and reliable voting blocs.
A lot of the political will for Obamacare only came about because even people in those categories were starting to feel the effects of our horribly inefficient system. (rapidly rising premiums, lifetime caps, preexisting conditions being the main ones.)
The Big Ragu
(75 posts)Not ALL Americans. Just way too many of them.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)QED
(2,751 posts)Tom Delay said as much on npr Thursday afternoon.
BumRushDaShow
(129,790 posts)I don't know how many people I have talked to over the years who claimed that they were "never sick a day in their lives".... and it spirals downhill from there.
LakeArenal
(28,863 posts)Australia was founded by the most violent and downtrodden folks. They don't seem nearly as dysfunctional as we are.
That doesn't account for the complete disrespect for education and complete lack of empathy by the very people that would benefit most.
Jim Beard
(2,535 posts)milestogo
(16,829 posts)Oh, they pay such high taxes...
Oh, they wait in line forever...
Oh, their healthcare isn't as good as ours...
Calculating
(2,957 posts)As a healthy 20-30 year old, is it right that somebody should need to pay higher taxes to provide free healthcare to a morbidly obese cigarette smoker with diabetes who is costing 20-30x what their yearly healthcare costs? How about all of the old people who might use up $100k or more in medical expenses just to prolong their life a few more years? The costliest patients account for the VAST majority of medical expenses in this country. People get especially touchy because many of these expenses are the result of poor lifestyle choices. Obesity, alcoholism, cigarette smoking, people who break a limb skiing or doing other extreme sports, drug users, people with AIDS, etc. The healthy productive people tend to get positively livid at the thought of paying higher taxes to subsidize the medical expenses of unhealthy lifestyles.
Bozvotros
(786 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 27, 2017, 08:24 AM - Edit history (1)
Until they get a particularly virulent disease or cancer, lose their job, can't get insured, have a handicapped child or spouse etcetera. Then they lose some of that lividness.
And those healthy young people don't stay that way forever. The last few years and particularly the last few weeks of life are the most expensive part of National Health Care. That's why there's been a big push have everyone have living wills. And I've been amazed to see how many people who trash Medicaid as a big waste suddenly lawyer up with estate attorneys when their wealthy parents need to go into a nursing home. Funny that.
And let's just put it this way.... there's a lot of unhealthy people in Trump country who don't have any problem with showing up in an emergency room for their free emergency gummint Healthcare.
Mariana
(14,861 posts)for old people, including those who have made lousy decisions and ruined their health through their own behavior. I don't see many people up in arms and demanding an end to Medicare because of that.
Azathoth
(4,611 posts)Every rugged individualist asshole fancies himself a veritable Jack LaLane because he doesn't smoke (well, except for those few years in his teens, and his twenties, and one or two in his thirties) and hits the gym twice a week to watch TV pump iron (which does nothing for his cardiovascular health) and takes expensive vitamin supplements (which scientifically do nothing). The guy down the street is overweight because he's lazy and made poor life choices, but I'm overweight with heart disease because it's genetic and I have a slow metabolism. Yeah sure. This hypocrisy is cartoonish. Obesity, for instance, is so widespread that, statistically speaking, anyone who sneers at paying higher taxes to cover people suffering with it is either sneering at herself, or at her future self, or at a family member.
The simple truth is that younger people are healthier and older people are sicker. It works that way whether you're talking cats or antelopes or humans. Almost half of the top 5% of healthcare spenders are 65+. And the chronic conditions in that group tend to be things like hypertension and cancer and diabetes, not BASE jumping injuries and drug-using AIDS patients. The 30-year-old who doesn't want to pay for some 60-year-old's "lifestyle choices" will be screaming for that help when he turns 60.
treestar
(82,383 posts)why focus so much on judging others?
And they may be drinking and smoking too.
JI7
(89,281 posts)And there are people who truly believe that some don't deserve to have healthcare.
I once read an argument that prison inmates should not be fed, much less have access to healthcare.
moondust
(20,018 posts)Moochers. They could afford health care in an unregulated marketplace if they would get up off their lazy butts and get a job and not spend all their money on iPhones, dammit!
Neoliberals and other greed monkeys probably say health care is a commodity to be bought and sold like doughnuts or anything else without interference from the big bad gubmint.
Different Drummer
(7,661 posts)TransitJohn
(6,932 posts)Most Americans truly believe we are better than the rest of the world, so we shouldn't do things like other civilized countries. Or something.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)leftstreet
(36,117 posts)raccoon
(31,130 posts)it would benefit them and their families, but I question whether the majority of the
99% are against it.
H2O Man
(73,655 posts)cilla4progress
(24,790 posts)car insurance with the same protestations!
Doreen
(11,686 posts)and can afford to go to many countries for their fun is that if they got sick or injured in "oh, lets say Germany" even they as a foreigner would not have to pay or if they had to pay it would be so damn little it would be less than pocket change for them. Some here would say "we should not have to pay for non-citizens?" Well a big part is those are people you know other "human beings" and also if you take care of those rich tourists they will come back and spend money for your economy. Since college is free there there is never a shortage of doctors like people here try to say there is. Their medicine is as advanced as ours if not more in some fields. They are also big on preventive and naturalistic medicine. People tend to not get sick as much which keeps the price down and make the single payer work for everybody.
gopiscrap
(23,766 posts)as a recipient of universal health care growing up, it did wonders. I was in the hospital for 6 months as a baby and it was absolutely wonderful for my parents. Barely a blip on their financial screen...in the US it would have left them penniless and on the streets
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Bayard
(22,192 posts)I actually think this is why a lot of people choose to be Rethuglicans, especially seniors. They just don't get the concept of universal healthcare. Everyone else here saying, they believe it means sub-standard care, long waits, etc etc, is absolutely right. They have been told this over and over.
In the wake of last weeks Rethug disaster, it is the perfect time for Dems to be supporting and pushing Bernie Sanders' new bill, as well as, educating the hell out of people. More, more, MORE town halls and marches. Show constituents that their Dem Congressman/woman is more than happy to meet with them and answer their questions. Not hiding out and lying like the Rethugs do.
My senators are McConnell and Rand Paul. Useless obstructionists. Do other senators pay any attention to people contacting them who are not their constituents? How about appearances/public service announcements from people like Obama and Biden? Sorry to say, I don't think Hillary would do us any favors by appearing.
Now is the time to go for Rethug's throats......
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)Azathoth
(4,611 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 27, 2017, 02:55 AM - Edit history (1)
That and fear of change are really all it is.
People have something that works for them -- not well, perhaps not even sufficiently -- but they would rather stay with the devil they know than toss the whole system away and roll the dice to see what they get. When peoples' lives are on the line, they really don't like to step outside their comfort zone; they'll claw your eyes out in order to cling to a sinking life raft rather than swim for the island in the distance.
People also comprehend, deep down, that whatever they have comes at the expense of someone else. They can schedule appointments to see the doctor, or schedule surgery, without waiting because the poor people on the sidewalk can't afford to. They can pay their insurance premiums because sick people can't get policies. They don't have to worry about pre-existing conditions because their employer can afford to underwrite that cost in the group plan because it isn't hiring anyone else. And so on. These are people who made it into the Titanic lifeboats and are frantically beating back the poor souls who are still in the water.
Alice11111
(5,730 posts)It's a zero sum game to them. Irony, look at Bill Gates and Warren Buffett. They are giving their money away as fast as they can, and they still get richer, and are at the top of Forbes richest people. Many RW wealthy people despise them.
Heartstrings
(7,349 posts)Jarqui
(10,131 posts)Warpy
(111,405 posts)because it's going to be paid for elsewhere. That they aren't going to need the transplant doesn't dawn on them, the very idea that their premiums or taxes might go up to help somebody else get one is extremely galling to them.
They think people oughta pay for their own transplants, dammit, until they have a kid with a deformity who needs one and find out the cost is way out of reach of anybody whose name isn't Trump.
Try to explain the concept of insurance to them and they'll huff that it's Communism and should be outlawed.
They really are bizarre people stuck on I, ME, and MINE.
No one is going to convince a conservative that universal health care is a good thing. If we want to get it done, we'll simply have to steamroll right over them for their own damned good.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)Medicare is popular. They need to be told that they get it immediately and without paying into it. Both good things.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)healthcare." There are, however, a lot of white wingers against Medicare.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Back when ACA was still being debated in Congress, it became clear that DUers would not support a true universal health care system, because they did not want to pay the taxes to support it.
When people find out that they are going to have to pay 15-17% of payroll, they freak. The support for "universal healthcare" like Medicare mostly vanishes when people discover that the under $150 a month Medicare fee doesn't cover the cost, and start applying real numbers to their life circumstances. Discovering that it would cost over $500 a month per person for Medicare type coverage is a deal breaker.
VOX
(22,976 posts)That, in a nutshell, is the unspoken big pushback on universal healthcare. The me-first-and-screw-the-other-guy attitude shared by shiny-suited Ayn Rand-ers, and the overt RACISM of just about every Republican.
Oh, they'll scream something about no more taxes, but it's that all-inclusive idea of helping *everyone* that sticks in the craw of so many self-centered, "patriotic" Americans.
HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts). . . it's women (how many men online comment about not wanting to pay for birth control or ultrasounds?), children, immigrants, anyone who doesn't have cash, veterans (they'll scream "HEY WAIT A SECOND" while electing their Republican politicians who vote against all levies/spending increases for veteran's care), etc.
VOX
(22,976 posts)And they do not hesitate to elbow their way in line to collect their own "gub'mint handouts."
I've been shocked at what appears to be a number of ex-federal and state employees who gleefully side with 45.
Not to mention all the retired folk, who presumably rely upon Social Security and Medicare to get by, but nevertheless vote in Republicans, baggers, Ayn Rand cranks, etc.-- those who are itching to destroy those very "entitlements." (I hate that word, it's designed to divert.)
ck4829
(35,094 posts)There's a cognitive distortion where there is opposition to giving people disadvantaged to you a leg up even if it means your life improves as well. This seems to be encouraged here in the US.
The health care system of tying employment to insurance is also a form of social control, so it would be seen as the "proper thing" by many of those with authority.
ryan_cats
(2,061 posts)The DMV, Post Office and the VA.
liquid diamond
(1,917 posts)don't want to pay for another person's shit regardless of what it is. It doesn't even have to be about race. Some whites wouldn't want to help other whites by paying more taxes. Pro-life right wingers wouldn't want their tax dollars paying for abortions. I don't agree with them of course, but those are the reasons why I believe universal health care will never happen in this country.
Demonaut
(8,934 posts)insert your fav patriotic slogan here:
LonePirate
(13,431 posts)They would rather suffer instead of seeing the country at large improve because it would involve making lives better. Despite revering the Declaration of Independence, they do not believe everyone is created equally and thus they will resist any attempt to make us equal.
DFW
(54,465 posts)The private insurance companies have huge advertising budgets, and countries that DO have universal health care always have SOME horror stories about excessively long waits to see a physician. Combine the two, and suddenly a huge portions of Americans think that universal health care ALWAYS DOES mean long waits to see a doctor. That scares them, and they don't want it. There are a lot of details left out, but basically I think it's that. Then there is the occasionally false story about countries that supposedly have universal health care when they in fact do not, such as Germany. They don't help, either, since they encourage finger-pointing from the right.
Combine all that with a healthy dose of "I barely get by, why should I pay for someone else?" and you have a vocal, massive, and VERY convinced segment of American society who will fight the very concept tooth and nail--until such a moment as they should need it themselves, that is.
ronnie624
(5,764 posts)minus the unnecessary drain on the risk pool from red tape and profit. It's far more efficient and less costly. For-profit health care insurance is completely illogical.
Fuck profiteers from illness and injury.
still_one
(92,482 posts)HughBeaumont
(24,461 posts)"It's not enough that I succeed, but everyone else must fail."
America.
sellitman
(11,608 posts)If they ditch their dam cellphones.