The Logical Answer To "For The First Time In History, ACA Is Forcing People To Buy A Product"

[stopbush]

Is, "That's only because we treat health insurance as a *product* in this country. The rest of the civilized world has some form of single payer, where the government acts as the insurer, with the insurance cost paid in the same way governments pay for roads or disaster relief, and there is no *product* to buy, forced or otherwise."

[JohnnyRingo]

1. K&R

Good answer

[JHB]

2. You're on the right track, but you can make it "bumper sticker" material...

...by using the "i" word.

Here, health coverage is a product. Every other advanced country treats it as infrastructure.

[MrModerate]

4. That word doesn't exactly sing . . .

And way too many people either won't get it at all or will think you're talking about physical infrastructure like hospitals.

I'd send that bumper sticker back to the focus group.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

6. How about: Why let greed come between you and your doctor?

Or, "My living or dying is not a product."

[MrModerate]

7. You're getting closer . . .

And I'm not coming up with anything especially brilliant myself, so I'll cede this one to you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. One nice thing about this place is there are tons of people here with ideas

I sure it will get refined much better than my attempt.

[Norrin Radd]

14. How about: "Health Care or Die"

[Spitfire of ATJ]

24. Too New Hampshirey

[uponit7771]

53. ...sounds pretty good

[JHB]

8. Hey, you pay for the focus group, I'll get right on that...

...in the meantime, if you don't like the song, let's hear your lyrics.

I think it's important that there's more to infrastructure than physical structures.

[MrModerate]

47. Quite so, but hard to put on a bumper sticker . . .

Which is, of course, half the problem. Existential issues that challenge the best minds of a nation can seldom be communicated in sound bites or on bumper stickers that in practice seldom rise above the level of "Yo mama".

And yet, that's how campaigns seem to be run. Very few voters will ever see a candidate live, or attend a rally, or read a white paper. What they do instead is catch the snippets on the news, maybe (MAYBE!) watch the debates, and mostly end up voting the way their social set does or the way they did last time.

Or according to the bumper sticker that caught their eye and stuck in their mind.

Political junkies who inhabit places like Democratic Underground or Daily Kos (or World News Daily or Big Government) are in the minority. And let's not kid ourselves: we're not "swing" voters.

Which brings us full circle: bumper stickers matter. Which I find depressing. Nevertheless, here's mine:

"Obama: Bringing Hope and Change to Healthcare."

[demwing]

43. "You Mandate We Pay for Your Wars...

But Cry About a Mandate for Healthcare?"

Fits on a bumper sticker

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

50. I really like this!!!

[demwing]

58. Quick 1st attempt at a sticker

or drop the Foreign/American text:

[uponit7771]

54. A bumper sticker for liberals but too many words for conservatives

[demwing]

60. Well...fuck conservatives and their short-ass attention spans

I'm talking to Independent voters.

[mwooldri]

72. Simplified bumper sticker: "I'm not paying for your war".

That'll take care the under-educated independent voter market. Might get a few educated cons in too for all I know.

[duhneece]

76. I like it alot

I use the concept of infrastructure alot, tho', in talking about how our grandparents invested in infrastructure (from public schools, roads, clean water, electricity, judicial , etc.)

[MrModerate]

3. More to the point, it's impossible to imagine modern life . . .

without access to the automobile, and for that you have to purchase insurance. There is nothing new in the government requiring an expenditure of this sort.

[Zalatix]

9. True, bicycles don't exist in modern society.

Damned savages.

[img][/img]

[tavalon]

12. Well, as someone who thinks any bicyclist who uses the public roads

should have to have insurance, that dog won't hunt for me. They are already required to wear helmets and I think the bike shorts are de riguer, so there's that.

Both bicyclists and walkers here in the Puget Sound have a fundamental misunderstanding of physics and therefore become road kill too often.

[Zalatix]

15. Bicyclists need insurance? *Falls out of chair laughing* And people who ride buses, too?

[tavalon]

23. I was in a bus accident last year

'taint a great joke. And really, I do think they should have to carry a much smaller insurance policy. See, here in the Seattle area, bikers believe they own the road and they like to surprise and scare motorists (a small minority do this). Motorcyclists have to have insurance. That bikes can't go as fast isn't really important in the kind of collisions they have. But, it isn't customary to think that way so they don't nor will they ever have to carry any kind of insurance. But, defensive driving would be a really, really great idea, along with a basic physics course, focusing on mass and velocity. A girl can dream, cant she?

I like bringing joy to people. I'm glad I was able to brighten your day.

[Zalatix]

25. Okay, so bicyclist insurance, pedestrian insurance, bus rider insurance.

What else do you advocate?

[tavalon]

34. Universal healthcare, which obviates the need for insurance

but mandatory defensive driving/walking for anyone using the public roads.

See, I'm arguing a straw man I really have no investment in.

I just want us all to understand that cars are almost always bigger than the bicyclists and the pedestrians and that it's very easy for them to slip into a car's blindside (especially in a place where it is always raining) and while in a crash between a car and a bicycle, the bigger mass wins, everyone loses.

Wow, I have a lot of other things I advocate but right now most of my brain is dealing with cancer, so I can't really say that anything else is on the top of my mind.

I'm definitely not at my best right now.

I yield.

[Zalatix]

56. Damn! I wish you the best with your fight against cancer.

[tavalon]

67. Thanks

I appreciate that.

[On the Road]

52. Might as Well Laugh About People Needing Car Insurance

Drivers are safer in their than cyclists are on their bikes. How many cyclists do you know that don't have stories about falls and collisions?

The kind of insurance most needed by cyclists is for their own medical care, which is the same type of insurance specified by the ACA mandate.

[Zalatix]

57. Okay. What about pedestrians and bus riders?

[Fumesucker]

33. Whereas drivers of course have perfect understanding of physics..

And hence never mishandle their vehicle in such a way as to harm themselves.

[tavalon]

35. Um, nope

I'm astounded at the hubris of drivers who spend 90% of their time on wet roads but know nothing about hydroplaning or safe distances between cars. My husband says he always wonders why so many Seattlites trust their fellow driver's tires so implicitly and they do, OMG, it's rampant. Tailgating is the norm around here.

I hate sharing the road with those overcaffeinated idiots. And I'm the one they say is most dangerous, because I drive after a 12 hour night shift. I guess I should be grateful that the idiots keep me vigilant.

[MrModerate]

48. The exist, but are hardly a comprehensive solution. n/t

[oldhippie]

64. No, you don't have to purchase car insurance, .....

.... even to drive a car on public roads. How many time do we have to go over this?

Here in Texas, as in most states, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PURCHASE CAR LIABILITY INSURANCE to operate a motor vehicle on public roads. You are required to show evidence of financial responsibility. One way to do this is to purchase insurance, but you can also post a surety bond or a deposit of cash or securities with the State. Granted, the vast majority of people chose to purchase the insurance as they can't afford to post a bond or cash. But I could, if I chose to, deposit $55,000 with the County Judge. Sometimes I even consider it, but so far I continue to pay roughly $600 for auto liability insurance.

Sec. 601.123. Deposit of Cash or Cashier's Check with County Judge.

(a) A person may establish financial responsibility by making a deposit with the county judge of the county in which the motor vehicle is registered.

(b) The deposit must be made in cash or a cashier's check in the amount of at least $55,000.

(c) On receipt of the deposit, the county judge shall issue to the person making the deposit a certificate stating that a deposit complying with this section has been made. The certificate must be acknowledged by the sheriff of that county and filed with the department.

Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.

So I wish people would stop saying that "you have to purchase car insurance." You don't in most places.

[rateyes]

78. What a nit picking argument.

if you dont put up the bond and dont buy insurance and get in an accident that is your fault, you are screwed.

[oldhippie]

80. Nitpicking or outrage ...

... depends on your perspective. What is law or politics other than nitpicking?

The point is that the statement that "You have to buy car insursnce" is FALSE.

[MrModerate]

83. As a practical matter . . .

It's wildly inefficient to post a bond as you describe. And $55 K would disappear in a flash if you were involved in an injury accident.

So I'll amend my statement: "unless you're a bull-goose looney risk-taker who's happy to put your financial future on the line every time you turn the key, you need to buy insurance"

And for that matter, in most jurisdictions I've lived in, the bond option is not available.

[oldhippie]

85. But we are discussing law, not practicality ...

.... or efficiency.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

5. Good point.

Canada health care is 10% of their GDP and the number of people without health care is zero.

Last time I looked it's 17% of GDP here and 10s of millions have no health care.

That's what happens when everything that's needed is for sale.

[tavalon]

13. Oh, that is so close

How about a minor tweak: Healthcare is only a product in nations where profits outweigh lives.

[October]

18. Excellent and to the point.

Welcome to DU.

[tavalon]

21. Wow, thanks

I haven't been welcomed to DU in about 20,000 posts. Welcome to you too!

[tavalon]

31. I think you're right

Here's one from me. Welcome to our dysfunction junction! LOL!!

Oh, and here's a secret. When you get to about 700- 800 posts, go to the lounge and say, "Hi, I'm Bupkus and I have 700 posts. Ask me anything!" It's part of the process. We all did it.

[October]

75. Welcome to DU, bupkus!

I have NO idea why I welcomed an "old-timer" here at DU... just caught up in the moment, I guess. lol!

[October]

74. lol! Well... you're welcome! lol!!!

I'm laughing as I type...

I will not take back my welcome... but I will offer another to the new DU'er.



Thanks for having a sense of humor.

[tavalon]

79. No problem

i actually passed it along to the intended recipient.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Bingo!!! I think you got it!!!

Forget the whole "health care" thing because it's not about health care.

Health care is only a means to an end. It's all about life.

Add that to the original poster's denial of it being a "product".

You get: Life is not a product.

Personalize it.

Various people:

My life is not a product.

My Child's life is not a product

My husband's life is not a product.

My wife's life is not a product.

My father's life is not a product.

My brother's life is not a product.

My baby's life is not a product.

My mom's life is not a product.

All together:

Our lives are not a product.

Final message:

Your life is not a product.

Then contact info to take profit out of health care.

[tavalon]

32. Woah, excellent

The people paying for this focus group really got their money's worth with you.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. I just put it together. It was a joint effort

This could work for radio and TV spots in even 15 second time slots. Print ads including magazines, billboards, bus stop posters, even those little ad spaces on top of taxis.

[MatthewStLouis]

46. Good point. What is moral about "FOR PROFIT" health insurance?

Health insurance companies should be non-profit.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

71. Kucinich put it best

He said all the other candidates were using the line "Everybody should have the right to purchase health insurance." and he said, "They sound like a bunch of insurance salesmen.".

He advocated single payer, not for profit health care. Medicare for all with free dental, free vision, free mental health, free long term care.

Another line I liked of his was, "We're already paying for health care for all. We're just not getting it."

[uponit7771]

55. BINGO!!! Short and too the point

[DRoseDARs]

16. If by "first time in [US] history" you mean since the Washington & Adams admins. in the 1790s...

Is another good one, really confuses them.

[cojoel]

73. The Robert's consolidated opinion mentioned some of those older ones

From the footnote on page 18:

The examples of other congressional mandates cited by JUSTICE GINSBURG, post, at 35, n. 10 (opinion concurring in part, concurring in judgment in part, and dissenting in part), are not to the contrary. Each of those mandates—to report for jury duty, to register for the draft, topurchase firearms in anticipation of militia service, to exchange goldcurrency for paper currency, and to file a tax return—are based on constitutional provisions other than the Commerce Clause. See Art. I, §8, cl. 9 (to “constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court”); id., cl. 12 (to “raise and support Armies”); id., cl. 16 (to “provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia”); id., cl. 5 (to “coin Money”); id., cl. 1 (to “lay and collect Taxes”).

[TrollBuster9090]

19. A better answer would be "It's NOT the first time in history people have been 'forced' to buy health

insurance. It's been done MULTIPLE times in MULTIPLE states, up to and including Massachusetts where it was GOVERNOR ROMNEY'S SIGNATURE LEGISLATIVE ACHIEVEMENT. And probably his most popular program."

It's a pathetically weak argument for the GOP to now claim that health care mandates are an absolutely HIDEOUS, communist, Nazi, Faschist, anti-constitutional idea...except if it's a Republican who does it. Er...I meant it's a hideous idea at THE NATIONAL level, but a great idea at the state level...except when the HERITAGE FOUNDATION writes the bill, and the GOP sponsors it as an alternative to Hillarycare.

Maybe some Democrats in the Senate should have proposed Hillarycare again, and just LET the Republicans bring up their 1993 plan again so Obama could have made a show out of 'compromising' with them. He should have known that ANYTHING he proposes will be labeled as 'socialism,' even when it was a Republican idea.

[PBass]

20. What about Food Stamps? How come the food isn't actually cost-free?

You still have to purchase food using the stamps, which just supports the big Agribusiness monopolies. Plus all the supermarket vultures skimming their share off the top.

The government should just drop food off on your doorstep.

[quaker bill]

22. Reasonable but not precisely true

Some civilized countries have insurance mandates (Germany, Belgium, Switzerland). Many have two tiered systems where government provides a basic catastrophic coverage and where most supplement this with private sector insurance. Some have pure single payer with the government as the only insurer.

What is true is that in all of these countries, very few if anyone goes without healthcare coverage and virtually everyone pays something into the system. It is not a product, it is much more like a utility.

[unblock]

26. except that you're not at all forced to buy insurance.

as the supreme court made clear, the term "mandate" is completely irrelevant and beside the point.
the "requirement", for which there is no enforcement, is to pay a tax.
buying insurance is merely one of several ways to be exempt from the tax.

this arrangement is essentially as many other exemptions and deductions in the tax code which reward the purchase of hybrids, solar panels, daycare services, mortgages, etc.

no one complains about being "required" to buy those goods and services even though the penalty is paying more in taxes -- exactly the same arrangement as with health insurance and the aca.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

30. PPACA

is essentially a "privitized" national health insurance program that lays down some standards for health insurance coverage but allows people the ability to choose the kind of insurance they want. It's essentially a free market approach to what single payer is attempting to achieve and should, theoretically, be something that conservatives should support. I think that what they are mainly upset about is that President Obama and the Democrats passed it and that it includes too many of those evil "socialist" standards on insurance companies.

[TBF]

37. My response is that I'm forced to pay taxes

that are used to purchase bombs, drones, and other deadly objects used to kill folks worldwide. I'd rather have the choice to buy something that will keep people alive.

[Larry Ogg]

44. Single payer health care could be considered as being the highest of moral values.

Because it stops predators from making a profit off the suffering of others.

Whereas, mandating citizens to do business with a privately owned money making fraud, is predatory at best, and the lowest of moral values.

I felt the same way 30 years ago; when the State I live in started mandating that we had to buy auto insurance, i.e. do business with a privately owned company.

None of this is free market capitalism, it is predatory capitalism, and a hidden tax that is enforced by government, even though it bypasses government, and goes directly into the hands of predators that make a living off the suffering of others.

According to "The Decoration of Independence", the role of Government is to protect the life, liberty, and happiness of the people. And who is government supposed to protect us from? They are supposed to be protecting us from predators; instead, they have mandated a tax that goes directly into the hands of predators.

This is not only the lowest of moral values; it is a dam good sign that predators have taken over the government.

Note: For those of you who do not know, "Predator" is just another name for "psychopath", and all throughout human history, psychopaths have perfected the art lying, swindling, and profiting off the suffering of others.

[MatthewStLouis]

45. Throw it back in their faces: It's about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY!

Do they want people to sponge off the ER?

That said, I wanted a public option. I really wanted single payer universal health care, but the "for-profit" middle men wouldn't allow it.

[99Forever]

49. Well put.

I have long wondered how such a basic HUMAN RIGHT as health care could be treated like a "product."

What is wrong with a Nation that can be so callous to it's own people?

[HopeHoops]

51. Perhaps that's why the US is so low on the list of "good health care" globally.

[cilla4progress]

59. How about this:

"Pro-life? Support ACA. ACA saves lives."

[soccer1]

61. For the first time in history...

people are being compelled to pay for health services they receive or face a penalty that will pay help offset the health services they will use. Health care is a "service" to others and the insurance is the contract to receive those services. You're buying the contract to receive the service.

[4th law of robotics]

62. Still, as it stands now the government is forcing you to buy a private product

or at least penalizing you for not doing so.

You can argue that it shouldn't be a product but currently it *is*. Meaning the precedent has been set legally for a public entity to penalizing private citizens for not purchasing a private good out of pocket.

[soccer1]

65. I understand your reasoning.....

and it makes sense.Taking your point into consideration, let's just say that the federal govt is making people pay for a product (insurance), for a service they use. Either buy the product or pay the penalty for a service you use or will use. I don't believe the fed govt will try to make people buy "broccoli" or purchase exercise equipment, etc because it's good for them. So, yes, people are being forced to buy a product to pay for services they do or will use.

[4th law of robotics]

66. I think a better way to do it would have been to enroll everyone in medicare by default

(and really combine that with medicaid, no need for two) and charge them a tax (no penalties or anything) based on their income.

Those that are poor and on assistance would be hit with nothing. Those that are middle class would be taxed moderately and so on. A progressive tax based on income with a poverty level included.

You could apply to get out of it by having some other insurance.

But its not something you can simply avoid by paying a penalty: you're on it unless you can demonstrate that you have other coverage.

That way you are not forced to purchase a private insurance plan although you are encouraged to do so (especially for those earning above a certain amount).

[soccer1]

68. I like the single payer idea.....

But, if people who buy private insurance are able to opt out of the single payer (medicare style plan) would there be enough money to cover the health costs of everyone on the medicare style plan? And would those people not be able to get medicare benefits when they reach a creation age? Would they have to rely on private insurance for the duration of their lives? Or, everyone still pays into medicare but they can buy private insurance if they so choose? Isn't that how it works in countries that have single payer? Just trying to figure this out.....daunting task.

[harun]

70. That precedent has not been set. Roberts explains why.

[treestar]

63. It's also like being forced to buy food

We are "forced" to buy that stuff. It makes no sense to deny oneself this particular product if you can have it.

[harun]

69. How about "Were you born in a hospital?"

[freshwest]

81. Excellent answer.

[loyalsister]

82. OPPURTUNITY

that improves citizen participation in work, Child health, employment choices and scheduling

[jimlup]

84. Your post helps me realize that we should ...

do something similar for the Affordable Care Act that

www.skepticalscience.com

has done for Global Warming. Provide a linkable list of answers to Right wing talking points.