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Jamaal510

(10,893 posts)
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:10 PM Jul 2012

My Rant On Constitution-Huggers

You know how conservatives and libertarians affectionately mention the Constitution on various issues? Many of them assert that the Framers never intended for federal government to intervene and dictate what states do, and that things like social security, universal health care, and the Civil Rights Act conflict with the Constitution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I can recall, it doesn't give states the right to discriminate against people or deny them health care, and the Preamble even mentions promoting the "general welfare."

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My Rant On Constitution-Huggers (Original Post) Jamaal510 Jul 2012 OP
Unfortunately, not the case cthulu2016 Jul 2012 #1
"The General Welfare" is an important feature. elleng Jul 2012 #2
General Welfare: Igel Jul 2012 #3
They're cafeteria Constitutionalists meow2u3 Jul 2012 #4

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
1. Unfortunately, not the case
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:14 PM
Jul 2012

States had very, very great latitude in internal governance—vastly larger than they do today. Even the Bill of Rights didn't apply to state laws until after the civil war.

(That does not mean that the framers necessarily wanted it that way. It was, however, the strongest federal government they could negotiate with the 13 colonies in the 1780s.)

elleng

(130,974 posts)
2. "The General Welfare" is an important feature.
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 07:31 PM
Jul 2012

As to 'State's rights,' has been an issue for some time, and they are limited, but Feds may be thought of as more limited, as the Tenth Amendment provides:

'The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The Constitution is NOT simple!

P.S., if you're interested in history, some fun, etc., 1776 is on TCM Wednesday at 5:00 EDT.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
3. General Welfare:
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 08:43 PM
Jul 2012

"We the People of the United States, in Order
to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure
domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure
the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our
Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution
for the United States of America."

Promoting the general welfare isn't an enumerated right or obligation: It's the reason for which the Constitution, as it was instituted, was instituted. To make the Union better--the articles of confederation sucked. To provide for the common defense and general welfare (note the parallel there, "common" and "general" have a common theme going). And to secure the blessings of liberty not just for ourselves but for the future generations.

"Welfare" doesn't mean individual. It means general.

===========
The other place that uses "general welfare" is as follows. Notice that again, 'common defence and general welfare' are construed in parallel.

"The Congress shall have Power To
lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
to pay the Debts and provide for the common
Defence and general Welfare
of the United States;
but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform
throughout the United States;
To borrow Money on the credit of the United
States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations,
and among the several States, and with the Indian
Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization,
and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies
throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and
of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights
and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting
the Securities and current Coin of the United
States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful
Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors
and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective
Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme
Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies
committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against
the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and
Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on
Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation
of Money to that Use shall be for a longer
Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation
of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute
the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections
and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining,
the Militia, and for governing such Part
of them as may be employed in the Service of the
United States, reserving to the States respectively,
the Appointment of the Officers, and the
Authority of training the Militia according to the
discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases
whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten
Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular
States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become
the Seat of the Government of the United States,
and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased
by the Consent of the Legislature of the
State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection
of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other
needful Buildings;—And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and
proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing
Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution
in the Government of the United States
or in any Department or Officer thereof."

That's a long list, and over time what each has meant has expanded. The common defence was originally what defended the nation. In defending any of it, all would be defended. Same for general welfare: patents and copyright weren't intended to help individuals, but to advance "science". It included things like a post office and judicial system, intended to benefit everybody. Perhaps not equally, but the vast majority would benefit from putting up a system of post offices and courts, of uniform naturalization. Their good was general, and specific good was a by-product: If it helps pretty much everybody, then most individuals will be helped.

Since then it's been slippery, as we want "general welfare" to be things that benefit not everybody, but might, potentially, benefit people if things were different. A lot of this happened in the late 1800s, some happened fairly quickly as the federal goverment's power expanded. It was less and less clear that everything it did helped the "general welfare" and so the definition had to change to fit the reality. Because, after all, what the government does is, by definition, the general welfare.

It's unclear that providing health care provides for the "general welfare" under the early definitions. It's not instituted to help most people--it's specifically there to help some people. However, it's not an enumerated power of the federal government, and so everything not federal is either state or belongs to the people.

Note that the same kind of arguments that (R) don't like about the ACA ultimately also apply to things like DOMA and the Patriot Act. It's not a question of hugging the Constitution or not hugging it--it's entirely a question of when we hug it because it agrees with us as it is and when we want it to be "living"--and malleable--because it's not obvious that it agrees with us.

meow2u3

(24,764 posts)
4. They're cafeteria Constitutionalists
Mon Jul 2, 2012, 08:50 PM
Jul 2012

They cherry pick the parts of the Constitution they rigidly adhere to, such as as twisted interpretation of the 2nd and 10th Amendments, while ignoring or defying the others that are inconvenient, such as the 1st, 4th, 5th, 8th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 19th, 26th, etc.--most of the Constitution. And they have the unmitigated gall to call liberals unpatriotic!?

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