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Omaha Steve

(99,070 posts)
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:00 AM Jan 2015

SOME DOCTORS WON'T SEE PATIENTS WITH ANTI-VACCINE VIEWS

Source: AP

BY ALICIA CHANG

LOS ANGELES (AP) -- With California gripped by a measles outbreak, Dr. Charles Goodman posted a clear notice in his waiting room and on Facebook: His practice will no longer see children whose parents won't get them vaccinated.

"Parents who choose not to give measles shots, they're not just putting their kids at risk, but they're also putting other kids at risk - especially kids in my waiting room," the Los Angeles pediatrician said.

It's a sentiment echoed by a small number of doctors who in recent years have "fired" patients who continue to believe debunked research linking vaccines to autism. They hope the strategy will lead parents to change their minds; if that fails, they hope it will at least reduce the risk to other children in the office.

The tough-love approach - which comes amid the nation's second-biggest measles outbreak in at least 15 years, with at least 98 cases reported since last month - raises questions about doctors' ethical responsibilities. Most of the measles cases have been traced directly or indirectly to Disneyland in Southern California.

FULL story at link.



Pediatrician Charles Goodman vaccinates 1 year- old Cameron Fierro with the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, or MMR vaccine at his practice in Northridge, Calif., Thursday, Jan. 29, 2015. Some doctors are adamant about not accepting patients who don't believe in vaccinations, with some saying they don't want to be responsible for someone's death from an illness that was preventable. Others warn that refusing treatment to such people will just send them into the arms of quacks. (AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes)

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MEASLES_OUTBREAK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-01-29-19-20-43

91 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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SOME DOCTORS WON'T SEE PATIENTS WITH ANTI-VACCINE VIEWS (Original Post) Omaha Steve Jan 2015 OP
Poor kid. Old and In the Way Jan 2015 #1
send them into the arms of quacks? maybe they can just start the pray away the sickness thing msongs Jan 2015 #2
If you believe your doctor is pushing harmful chemicals into your child jeff47 Jan 2015 #40
too bad the kid was born to idiot parents ... srican69 Jan 2015 #58
I hope they also don't see children who are not breast-fed. postulater Jan 2015 #3
+1000 DeSwiss Jan 2015 #4
by 6 months of age maternal protection from measles is completely gone Godhumor Jan 2015 #7
There You Go Again..... Sparhawk60 Jan 2015 #14
Selectively ignoring inconvenient science is an unsustainable approach. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #37
Sense. Arugula Latte Jan 2015 #38
Maternal immune coverage depletes at various rates in babies. davsand Jan 2015 #89
It's s.o.p. to ask the parents about the child's immunizations. DRoseDARs Jan 2015 #8
I hope you are joking. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #9
Huh? That's just a goofy statement. MADem Jan 2015 #12
You are aware that some women can't breastfeed. Elmer S. E. Dump Jan 2015 #61
Terrific, I fully support these doctors. MicaelS Jan 2015 #5
Absolutely agree. SoapBox Jan 2015 #6
Good. Babies won't be infected with measles or whooping cough when they visit that doctor's office. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #10
I wish my pediatrician had the same policy. SunSeeker Jan 2015 #11
mine does AngryAmish Jan 2015 #15
i think if i ran a day care barbtries Jan 2015 #13
The doctor is the idiot blackcrow Jan 2015 #16
If you can't get vaccinated due to health reasons FunkyLeprechaun Jan 2015 #18
I won't let anyone ride in my car who refuses a seatbelt shawn703 Jan 2015 #20
LOL yeah sure you did rjsquirrel Jan 2015 #24
Yes, there is evidence of a flu shot & GBS Paula Sims Jan 2015 #83
Then don't go to that doctor. Demit Jan 2015 #29
not possible you should fire your doctor LOL snooper2 Jan 2015 #39
Well, according to NIH.... Adrahil Jan 2015 #91
Face masks prevent people with infections from spreading the disease. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #50
Hear, hear!!!! n/t Mugu Jan 2015 #84
Good! HappyMe Jan 2015 #17
Related. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #19
Page 30: "...JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, with whom JUSTICE GINSBERG joins, dissenting." proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #21
Interview excerpt of Kaiser-Permanente CEO Bernard Tyson on CNBC. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #22
Ah, Age of Autism. The RT of vaccinations and autism n/t Godhumor Jan 2015 #25
No, Kaiser Permante Chairman Bernard Tyson via CNBC. Watch the video here. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #35
My daughter is ASD. Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #49
Nuance, please. See IACC Transcript: "They are two different things and we call it all autism." proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #60
If you are autistic, you were born with it. Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #64
Inaccurate, sorry. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #69
You, just like the idiots over at AoA Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #70
That is not settled science no matter how many times you repeat yourself. (nt) proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #71
And NOTHING that you send me from AoA Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #85
I love the smell of quote mining in the morning. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #51
There is absolutely zero arguing with this one, is there? Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #87
The woo is strong with this one... Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #44
Find me a single direct link to Natural News. ANS: DOES NOT EXIST. I don't read the site ever. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #52
Everytime someone talks about vaccines Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #53
AOA posts wouldn't survive the DU jury system if what you claim is true, but it's not. Sorry. (nt) proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #55
Unfortunately, woo is allowed on DU... Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #57
It's science, not woo. Otherwise it would be hidden by the discerning juries on DU. (nt) proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #72
What DU juries do or do not hide doesn't make something science or woo. NuclearDem Jan 2015 #74
It's hard to justify hiding unpopular material when it's clearly fact based science, and DU has not. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #78
The jury doesn't care if the posts are christx30 Jan 2015 #79
In my experience on this topic, posts with scientific citations stay & op-eds are instantly canned. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #81
No, Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #86
That's a malicious mischaracterization. I can count my total hidden posts on one hand. (nt) proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #88
By canned I meant attacked... Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #90
Woowoowoowoowoowoowoo! Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #45
Your posts reflect a lack of reading comprehension. (nt) proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #47
No, you keep posting things from Age Of Autism Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #48
You want a food fight; I'm not interested. Get up to speed or don't, your prerogative. proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #54
Fuck Andrew Wakefield Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #56
Good! Those doctors rjsquirrel Jan 2015 #23
Bad For Those Doctors RobinA Jan 2015 #26
But good for his other patients. Demit Jan 2015 #31
You're talking about people who believe their doctor wants to poison their child jeff47 Jan 2015 #41
As a doctor he has a right to protect his patients and their children FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #27
If they stopped seeing every patient who wouldn't follow their advice, they would go bankrupt. livetohike Jan 2015 #28
But those things don't put his *other* patients at risk Cal Carpenter Jan 2015 #36
you are right, would you want someone with measles demigoddess Jan 2015 #62
Not true. My doctor drops patients who don't follow his treatment plans. Xithras Jan 2015 #66
I'd Drop RobinA Jan 2015 #77
Measles in the Age of Reason. CanSocDem Jan 2015 #30
And that killed or permanently maimed children. jeff47 Jan 2015 #43
Exactly. I was born 3 years before the Rubella Vaccine. deafskeptic Jan 2015 #76
Good. (nt) Paladin Jan 2015 #32
I fear the waiting rooms of hospitals and Doctors the most of all. Sunlei Jan 2015 #33
I won't see anti-vaxxers either. Aristus Jan 2015 #34
That's good. HappyMe Jan 2015 #42
I'm over 50 and I am thinking that too. demigoddess Jan 2015 #63
I really don't want or need to get that sick HappyMe Jan 2015 #65
No Arrogance RobinA Jan 2015 #80
I'm not sure who you are talking about. Aristus Jan 2015 #82
Good. Dr Hobbitstein Jan 2015 #46
Makes sense. Pay for home visits from immune doctors to protect others on point Jan 2015 #59
I'm all for taunting your T-cells with mashed bacteria husks, but they seem madder at MisterP Jan 2015 #67
One doc I know reserves one day every 2 weeks just to see the unvaccinated kids mainer Jan 2015 #68
Substantive pushback comment... "even pro-vaccine parents have a threshold of compliance." proverbialwisdom Jan 2015 #73
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2015 #75

Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
1. Poor kid.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:16 AM
Jan 2015

Gets a shot he/she will live with for w4 hrs...then...nothing. Meanwhile the rest of society is protected. What else can I say? Price of living in an educated society.

msongs

(67,193 posts)
2. send them into the arms of quacks? maybe they can just start the pray away the sickness thing
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:19 AM
Jan 2015

instead of using doctors

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
40. If you believe your doctor is pushing harmful chemicals into your child
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:52 AM
Jan 2015

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU KEEP GOING TO THAT DOCTOR?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The fact that anti-vaxxers want to keep seeing the doctors who they believe are deliberately harming their children demonstrates the insanity and illogic of their position.

postulater

(5,075 posts)
3. I hope they also don't see children who are not breast-fed.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:28 AM
Jan 2015

"Children with measles were also more likely to be not given breast milk in the initial two years of life."

"For Measles elimination, mother's education on breast feeding and appropriate weaning practices is required."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25523721

How do they tell whether the child has measles because they weren't shot up or because they weren't breast-fed? To arbitrarily ban one group and not the other is discriminatory.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
7. by 6 months of age maternal protection from measles is completely gone
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:02 AM
Jan 2015

Breastfeeding is in no way shape or form a substitute for vaccination at 1 year. It is also why the very young are so susceptible to the disease. There is an immunity gap from when maternal protection ends and the first vaccination is administered.

 

Sparhawk60

(359 posts)
14. There You Go Again.....
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 07:18 AM
Jan 2015

There you go again, bringing "facts", "medical knowledge" and "reality" in to the discussion. Next thing we know, you will be trying to have a rational, intelligent discussion on an issue that impacts on the entire society.

What type of discussion board would this be if every one was rational like you?

davsand

(13,420 posts)
89. Maternal immune coverage depletes at various rates in babies.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 04:31 PM
Jan 2015

I'm certainly no virologist, but the way it was explained to me, is that the baby is born with a certain level of immunity that is conveyed by the mother in utero. With breastfeeding some of the immunity will be maintained as long as the baby is nursing full time, however, some stuff does not convey with breastfeeding, and THAT is where the early vaccinations come into play. As the baby starts to eat food and nurse less, there are fewer antibodies present from the mom, and the baby is at greater risk for infection from a wider array of bugs.

Like, I said, that is how it was explained to me...




Laura

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
9. I hope you are joking.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:59 AM
Jan 2015

There's this thing called science.

Why are children with measles less likely to be given breast milk? Assuming that is true, it is probably because mothers who don't bother to breast-feed their babies or can't breast-feed their babies because they work too hard or have a health problem may also be impeded from immunizing them by their negligent attitude or their work schedule or their health problem.

There is not causation there. If you really think there is and are not as I hope just joking, please provide a link to support the idea that there is a causal relationship between not breast-feeding and measles.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
12. Huh? That's just a goofy statement.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 04:08 AM
Jan 2015

Breast feeding isn't always a choice. Some mothers can't do it, for whatever reasons. Some infants don't HAVE mothers who care for them, so there's that, too.

But every parent can vaccinate their children.

With electronic records, a doctor can see which patient has been vaccinated. I think what the doctors are saying is that they don't want to take on patients who refuse to comply with a vaccination protocol, and that IS their prerogative.

If a patient (or the patient's guardian) doesn't AGREE with a basic prophylactic protocol prescribed by the doctor, why would the patient want to see that doctor in the first place? The doctor and patient have to be on the same page, otherwise it's a pointless exercise.

 

Elmer S. E. Dump

(5,751 posts)
61. You are aware that some women can't breastfeed.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:16 PM
Jan 2015

Unless they want their baby to die. Some women just don't produce enough milk.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
10. Good. Babies won't be infected with measles or whooping cough when they visit that doctor's office.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 03:01 AM
Jan 2015

Here is an article that proposes a way to protect your infant too young to immunize from these diseases while encouraging people to immunize themselves and their children.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026155049

SunSeeker

(51,369 posts)
11. I wish my pediatrician had the same policy.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 03:08 AM
Jan 2015

I was really scared bringing my son in when he was a baby and was too young for shots. This kind of policy would have given me more comfort. Unvaccinated kids put infants at risk.

barbtries

(28,702 posts)
13. i think if i ran a day care
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 06:48 AM
Jan 2015

i would have the same policy. ignorance and hubris making people unsafe. it's so stupid.

 

blackcrow

(156 posts)
16. The doctor is the idiot
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 07:52 AM
Jan 2015

I got Guillain-Barre from a flu shot, and my neurologist tells me I could die if I get another vaccination in a certain set of vaccinations. Yet in order to see Dr. Ignorant Hitler, I'd have to risk my kid's life.

I don't think so. If people are so worried about contagion, let them wear masks and wash their hands.

 

FunkyLeprechaun

(2,383 posts)
18. If you can't get vaccinated due to health reasons
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 08:14 AM
Jan 2015

You really have to depend on herd immunity- IE the rest of the population that is healthy enough to receive vaccinations. You should be happy that the doctor is looking out for his patients' health and welfare, even those who cannot get vaccinated due to health reasons.

If your child is healthy enough to be vaccinated, he SHOULD be vaccinated. I wasn't healthy enough to get vaccinated until I was like 7-8 years old. Until I could get vaccinated, I depended on herd immunity BIG time and I was thankful for that.

Wearing masks and washing hands are not always enough.

shawn703

(2,702 posts)
20. I won't let anyone ride in my car who refuses a seatbelt
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 08:34 AM
Jan 2015

And I wouldn't say I'm the idiot for that stance. Maybe there's a one in a million chance of sustaining an injury in a car accident only because a seatbelt was worn, but there's a higher chance of sustaining an injury without it. And if the passenger is flying around the interior of the car during an accident, myself and my other passengers would suffer as well. Unfortunately you had the one in a million complication blackcrow, but you're putting your kid and the people around you at much greater risk without vaccinations.

 

rjsquirrel

(4,762 posts)
24. LOL yeah sure you did
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:25 AM
Jan 2015

There is no scientific evidence of a causal relation between flu vaccine and GBS.

Paula Sims

(877 posts)
83. Yes, there is evidence of a flu shot & GBS
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:15 AM
Jan 2015

as well as other live antigens that get injected including Botox. It it weren't for the high rate success I've had with my allergy shots, I would double think those too. A friend of mine had GBS and it's not pretty -- pretty much MS-lite. He was told he'd "grow out of it" and "it will pass" -- that was 25 years old and getting worse.

Here are the articles:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19388722
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm

My immune system can't take the shots because I get sick and then the level of immunity goes back to what it was -- I'm 48 and I have the immunity of an 80 year old. Pretty good health except for nasty sinus infections. Can't do anything about it.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
29. Then don't go to that doctor.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:09 AM
Jan 2015

Why would you make the decision to risk your kid's life so that you could see a certain doctor?

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
91. Well, according to NIH....
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 07:32 PM
Jan 2015

There is a small, non-zero risk of GBS from flu immunizations, though the evidence is very scant.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
50. Face masks prevent people with infections from spreading the disease.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:17 PM
Jan 2015

It doesn't do anything to prevent people from catching it.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
19. Related.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 08:30 AM
Jan 2015
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/billofhealth/2013/06/21/guest-post-crack-down-on-those-who-dont-vaccinate-a-response-to-art-caplan/



Posted on June 21, 2013 by Petrie-Flom Center

[center]Guest Post: Crack Down on Those Who Don’t Vaccinate?: A Response to Art Caplan
[/center]
As of Friday, June 28, this post is closed to further comments. We want to thank the many readers who have engaged in a vigorous and civil discussion on the recent posts to the Bill of Health that engage questions related to the debate over vaccines. In general, we do not moderate discussions on the site. However, due to an increasing number of comments that violate our policies regarding abusive and defamatory language and the sharing of personal information, we are closing these posts to comment.

By Mary Holland, J.D.

Mary Holland is Research Scholar and Director of the Graduate Legal Skills Program at NYU Law School. She has published articles on vaccine law and policy, and is the co-editor of Vaccine Epidemic: How Corporate Greed, Biased Science and Coercive Government Threaten Our Human Rights, Our Health and Our Children (Skyhorse Publishing, 2012).

Dr. Art Caplan recently posted an editorial, “Liability for Failure to Vaccinate,” on this blog. He argues that those who contract infectious disease should be able to recover damages from unvaccinated people who spread it. If you miss work, or your baby has to go to the hospital because of infectious disease, the unvaccinated person who allegedly caused the harm should pay. Dr. Caplan suggests that such liability is apt because vaccines are safe and effective. He sees no difference between this situation and slip-and-fall or car accidents due to negligence. Arguing that “a tiny minority continue to put the rest of us at risk,” he suggests that public health officials can catch the perpetrators and hold them to account through precise disease tracing.

Dr. Caplan’s assertions to the contrary, vaccines are neither completely safe nor completely effective. In fact, from a legal standpoint, vaccines, like all prescription drugs, are “unavoidably unsafe.” [See, e.g., Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, 562 U.S. __ (2011).?] Industry considered its liability for vaccine injury so significant that it lobbied Congress for the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, providing doctors and vaccine manufacturers almost blanket liability protection for injuries caused by federally recommended vaccines. [See Authorizing Legislation.] The liability risk was so serious that the federal government created a special tribunal under the 1986 Act, the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, to pay the injured. Moreover, the Supreme Court in 2011 decided Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, prohibiting any individual from filing a civil suit for a defectively designed vaccine in any court in the country. Industry’s extraordinary protection against liability for vaccine injury does not correspond with glib statements, like those of Dr. Caplan, that vaccines are safe and effective. On the contrary, the law acknowledges that vaccines cause injury and death to some, with no screening in place to mitigate harm. Dr. Caplan notes that public health officials have “tried to debunk false fears about vaccine safety.” Yet the Institute of Medicine, one the country’s most prestigious health organizations, has acknowledged repeatedly that there are many known vaccine injuries, such as seizures from the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, anaphylaxis from the meningococcal vaccine, and encephalitis from the varicella vaccine. Even more troubling than the identified injuries is the number of potential vaccine adverse effect relationships for which the evidence is not sufficient to either prove or disprove causality. (Committee to Review Adverse Effects of Vaccines, Institute of Medicine, Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality (Kathleen Straton et al. eds., 2012).)

<>

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/harvard-bill-of-health-blog-guest-post-mary-holland-on-art-caplans-vax-crackdowns.html

Harvard Bill of Health Blog Guest Post: Mary Holland On Art Caplan's Vax Crackdowns
Posted by Age of Autism at January 30, 2015 at 5:45 AM


We invite you to read Oregon Law Review: Herd Immunity and Compulsory Childhood Vaccination: Does the Theory Justify the Law? By MARY HOLLAND AND CHASE E. ZACHARY

ABSTRACT: Compulsory childhood vaccination is a cornerstone of U.S. public health policy. All fifty states compel children to vaccinate against many infectious diseases to achieve so-called herd immunity, a scientific theory that attempts to explain how societies protect themselves against infectious disease. This Article explores both the theory and practice of herd immunity. The authors evaluate the scientific assumptions underlying the theory, how the theory applies in law, a game theory approach to herd immunity, and a possible framework for rational policymaking.

The Article argues that herd immunity is unattainable for most diseases and is therefore an irrational goal. Instead, the authors conclude that herd effect is attainable and that a voluntary vaccination marketplace, not command-and-control compulsion, would most
efficiently achieve that goal.

Our colleague Mary Holland wrote this post (above) for the Harvard Bill of Health Blog in June of 2013.

<>

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
22. Interview excerpt of Kaiser-Permanente CEO Bernard Tyson on CNBC.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:19 AM
Jan 2015
http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/age-of-autism-midweek-mashup-minneapolis-minnesota-measles-minnie-and-more.html

Age of Autism Midweek Mashup: Minneapolis, Minnesota, Measles, Minnie, and More
By Dan Olmsted


...As I was packing to head to Minneapolis on Friday, I had CNBC on in the background when Kaiser-Permanente CEO Bernard Tyson was interviewed. Since K-P is my own HMO, I turned it up and listened. The vaccine question soon came up in the context of the measles cases emanating from Disneyland.

"Well you know," Tyson said, "we've seen in the country a decline in parents bringing their children in for immunization. We make that a big push at Kaiser -- studies show it helps and it's the right preventive step and we have outreach programs to parents.

"I think the measles and what is happening there is another sign of what can happen very quickly when something reaches epidemic proportions."

To me that's the standard pabulum you expect from an outfit like KP. But the next question and answer were interesting.

Question: "The parents who are worried about their children potentially getting autism from that? What do you tell them?"

Answer: "Well, those are legitimate concerns," he said, emphasizing the last two words. I nearly dropped my toothbrush. "I don't want to excuse away responsible parents asking very responsible questions. In some cases we don't have the answers in the health care community. I think we have the latest evidence to show that the connection is very slim if at all, but I think the questions are very important and we need to figure out how to engage in the right conversations so people are making informed decisions."

Except for his view that the autism link is very slim if at all, these comments are quite reasonable. In fact, as I said in Minneapolis after reading them, they reflect the spirit of our gathering there and also of our book, Vaccines 2.0. Parents are confused and concerned, as well they should be given the rise of chronic and developmental illnesses concurrent with the exploding and bloated vaccine schedule. Someone like KP's Tyson, who has a business to run, is probably a lot more sensitive to the pushback from parents than insulated and unaccountable vaccine zealots like Paul Offit and the crowd at the CDC.

<>

Posted by Age of Autism at January 28, 2015

http://www.amazon.com/Vaccines-2-0-Careful-Parents-Vaccination-ebook/dp/B00R3LDZOC/

About the Authors

Mark Blaxill is the father of a daughter diagnosed with autism, co-founder of the Canary Party, and editor at large for "Age of Autism." He has authored several scientific publications on autism. He received his A.B. from Princeton and an MBA from Harvard. He co-authored the book, "The Age of Autism."

Dan Olmsted is co-author of "Age of Autism" and Editor of the blog of the same name. He was an original staff member of USA Today and Senior Editor for USA Weekend magazine and United Press International. He is a member of the National Press Club.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
35. No, Kaiser Permante Chairman Bernard Tyson via CNBC. Watch the video here.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:00 AM
Jan 2015
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102360683



DAVOS 2015 - WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM

How health care is changing: Kaiser Permanente CEO
Tom DiChristopher
Friday, 23 Jan 2015 | 7:13 AM ET


VIDEO

Health care utilization is not dropping, but shifting toward a greater focus on outpatient care, Kaiser Permanente Chairman and CEO Bernard Tyson told CNBC on Friday.

"In our environment, when you're in the hospital, we're already preparing to care for you in the outpatient setting," he said in a "Squawk Box" interview from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. "We can get someone out of the hospital faster. However they are handed off to the outpatient side of the organization, so the continuity of care continues, its just in a very different setting."

Tyson said that model helps make health care more affordable for Kaiser Permanente and marks a change from the industry's mindset 30 years ago, when people came to providers, he said. "Now we're distributing care out," he said.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/zinamoukheiber/2014/09/30/kaiser-permanente-chairman-bernard-tyson-on-the-kaiserfication-of-america/

One neutral function of AOA is to simply aggregate autism news. Shouldn't all interested parties find that service useful? Additionally, looking back on their archives, it's fascinating to observe how many of their analyses are confirmed over time.
 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
49. My daughter is ASD.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:13 PM
Jan 2015

High functioning. Age of autism is bullshit. Her doctors (both MD and Psych) both state the same. As does anyone educated on the subject.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Age_of_Autism

Autism isn't a disease that needs treatment.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
60. Nuance, please. See IACC Transcript: "They are two different things and we call it all autism."
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:15 PM
Jan 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017218238

"AT LEAST WE CAN BEGIN TO LISTEN MORE CAREFULLY AND REALIZE THAT THIS IS A MULTIFACETED PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE HAVING VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES."
- Dr. Thomas Insel
@2:23 (bottom video)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017218238

IACC Meeting (9/23/14): Video excerpt of public comment by parent, Megan Davenhall, with transcript

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

"What we're here to say is absolutely nothing new, nothing that this committee hasn't heard before from multiple public commenters over the years. There's a huge subset of individuals with the label of autism who were not born with autism. These children, young adults and adults who were born as typically developing healthy children and then regressed into autism. This is not the autism that you see in our highly functioning adults, the way that Mr. Robinson described himself. This is not what we are talking about. But we don't have another word; we have autism. So we are talking about high functioning adults, people who love who they are and should celebrate who they are. And we're talking about kids who are sick. They are two different things, and we call it all autism.

<>


 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
64. If you are autistic, you were born with it.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:25 PM
Jan 2015

Thomas Insel is right, autism IS multifaceted, which is why it's a SPECTRUM disorder. It's not two different things, it's MANY different things, all with something in common during early development.

Quit quote mining.

Megan Davenhall is nothing more than a parent with no medical/science background. She spouts woo because her child is autistic and she has to blame SOMETHING. She is nothing. No one. No education. Thinking Mom, my ass. Her thoughts are bullshit. Everything you have posted is bullshit.

Once again, woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
69. Inaccurate, sorry.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 05:12 PM
Jan 2015
http://www.dsm5.org/research/pages/autismandotherpervasivedevelopmentaldisordersconference%28february3-5,2008%29.aspx

...In regressive autism, the skills are lost in the second year of life, while in “early onset” autism, skills are lost in the first year of life. There was general agreement that symptom onset is on a continuum between regression and non-regression and that defining the borders between the two can be difficult. Diagnostic certainty is particularly problematic because most parents are not going to pick up a regression of acquired skills unless the child has acquired language which then is lost.

More: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101689682

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2536523/

J Child Neurol. Author manuscript; available in PMC Sep 15, 2008.

Published in final edited form as:
J Child Neurol. Feb 2006; 21(2): 170–172.
doi: 10.2310/7010.2006.00032

Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism
Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Richard E. Frye, MD, PhD, John Shoffner, MD, and Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
70. You, just like the idiots over at AoA
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 05:50 PM
Jan 2015

are confusing ONSET with having the disorder. The DSM-V definition isn't saying what you (or AoA) think it is. If you are autistic, you are born with it. It may not present itself until later, but you are born with it. I suggest you keep up with current research.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/03/26/294446735/brain-changes-suggest-autism-starts-in-the-womb
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/274655.php
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20140627/ultrasounds-autism
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26750786

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
85. And NOTHING that you send me from AoA
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jan 2015

or "thinking moms" or in support of Andrew Wakefield is ACCEPTED science, no many how many times you repeat yourself.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
87. There is absolutely zero arguing with this one, is there?
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jan 2015

Just keep going around in the same circles...

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
44. The woo is strong with this one...
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 12:50 PM
Jan 2015

Proverbial(lackof)Wisdom has been posting age of autism and natural news links trying to refute actual science for quite some time... It's an old, tired trope. No amount of fact-based research will change that poster's mind (like most fuckwit anti-vaxxers). I've stopped trying to use facts when arguing with anti-vaxxers. For every fact I bring up, they have 15 links full of unsubstantiated bullshit that I have to read through an refute. So now, I show my disdain and ridicule the plebeians. Fuck anti-vaxxers! They should be arrested for child abuse and removed from society, seeing as they don't want to participate in said society.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
52. Find me a single direct link to Natural News. ANS: DOES NOT EXIST. I don't read the site ever.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:32 PM
Jan 2015

And I'm not an anti-vaxxer in any way, shape, or form. Not to make things personal, but your post is pure fiction and your argument weak, like this ridiculous dodge (post 4): http://www.democraticunderground.com/101697124

Silly how similar, IMO, although completely baseless.





 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
53. Everytime someone talks about vaccines
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:37 PM
Jan 2015

You come in with age of autism, an anti-vaxx site. Every. Fucking. Time.

You may be right that you don't post from Natural News (and if you don't, then I apologize for that accusation), but AoA is the SAME FUCKING THING, and I don't apologize for that. 100% bullshit. You don't want to look like an anti-vaxxer, quit posting anti-vaxxer bullshit.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
74. What DU juries do or do not hide doesn't make something science or woo.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:57 PM
Jan 2015

Anti-vaxx crankery is not good science, and AOA is a hub for that nonsense.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
78. It's hard to justify hiding unpopular material when it's clearly fact based science, and DU has not.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jan 2015

That would be censorship, not to mention an absence of intellectual integrity.

Of course "anti-vaxx crankery is not good science," however, the claim that "AOA is a hub for that nonsense" is false. Such a gross mischaracterization warrants identifying specific examples of statements which cannot be supported by science, yeah, "quote mining." HINT: None exist, otherwise, show me.

Ironically, you have a problem with that, too?




christx30

(6,241 posts)
79. The jury doesn't care if the posts are
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:51 PM
Jan 2015

accurate or not. It's does it violate the TOS? Personal attacks are the majority of the posts I've juried.
If someone posted something that said climate change is exclusively caused by Santa Claus feeding his elves, that post would survive. If someone called the poster an idiot, THAT post would be hidden.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
81. In my experience on this topic, posts with scientific citations stay & op-eds are instantly canned.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:14 PM
Jan 2015

The cognitive dissonance caused by this subject matter is tough for everyone.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
86. No,
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jan 2015

YOUR posts from AoA are canned. Everyone else supports the actual science here. AoA is NOT a scientific journal, and is not accepted science. No matter how many times you try to claim such. Trolling vaccine threads with AoA quackery is an assholish thing to do, however.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
90. By canned I meant attacked...
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 05:54 PM
Jan 2015

Like I said, woo is always allowed on DU. It's unfortunate, but true.

Real science gets ignored by woo practitioners such as yourself.

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
48. No, you keep posting things from Age Of Autism
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jan 2015

a KNOWN woo site with ZERO credibility in the medical/science world.

One does not have to read it to know it's bullshit. Vaccines save lives. Because of the bullshit you like to post, we're dealing with a measles outbreak in the western US. Vaccines do NOT cause autism. Andrew Wakefield is the progenitor of this shit, and he has been debunked and stripped of his medical license because of the ethics involved in his "study". Turns out, he was trying to link the current MMR vaccine to autism in order to sell his OWN vaccine. Every bit of his study was bullshit. Every study done since has 100% refuted his work. You post bullshit. I'm tired of refuting it, so I say woo. Woo woo woo! That's all you do is post fucking woo!

 

Dr Hobbitstein

(6,568 posts)
56. Fuck Andrew Wakefield
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 01:43 PM
Jan 2015

and ANYONE who sides with him. Dangerous fucking people. He started a movement based on falsified data and lost his medical license for it. And you want to listen to him, and try to get other to listen to him? Quit pushing your anti-vaxxer views here. No one wants to fucking hear it.

RobinA

(9,878 posts)
26. Bad For Those Doctors
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:40 AM
Jan 2015

Whenever you are in a position of treating people you have a choice about people who won't follow treatment. You can kick them to the curb or you can continue treating them to the extent they will accept. If you continue treatment you have some chance of eventually bringing them around to accepting the treatment they previously wouldn't. Or some of the treatment they wouldn't accept. If you kick them to the curb you have exactly zero chance of ever convincing them of the advantages of the treatment you are offering.

So what gives you the better chance of getting more people treated? And what is your ultimate measure of success? Getting people treated, or getting them to follow your recommendations the first time they are offered?

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
31. But good for his other patients.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:21 AM
Jan 2015

Why should he put his other patients at risk so that he can proselytize to stubborn people?

I think what he did is a very convincing way to demonstrate the advantages of vaccination. Showing, not telling.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
41. You're talking about people who believe their doctor wants to poison their child
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:58 AM
Jan 2015

yet they want to continue to see that doctor.

You aren't going to get a rational discussion that leads to vaccination. Because their behavior is utterly and completely irrational.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
27. As a doctor he has a right to protect his patients and their children
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:48 AM
Jan 2015

I support this wholeheartedly.

Why risk the health of very young children because of the beliefs of a few anti-science idiots?

livetohike

(22,084 posts)
28. If they stopped seeing every patient who wouldn't follow their advice, they would go bankrupt.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:05 AM
Jan 2015

Stop drinking, loose weight, cut down on salt, exercise, take this pill, take that pill and the list goes on.

Now if Medicare puts through the "pay for performance" plan of paying doctors based on successful outcomes, how will they measure those doctors for the patients who don't follow their advice. There are many of them. Will they only take healthy patients? Will this expand to non-Medicare using patients.

It's all thought provoking.

Cal Carpenter

(4,959 posts)
36. But those things don't put his *other* patients at risk
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:01 AM
Jan 2015

Whereas refusing MMR vaccinations can and does put other people at risk, particularly some of the most vulnerable people in our society like infants and the immuno-compromised.

You may bring up some interesting questions but they aren't what this is about.

demigoddess

(6,640 posts)
62. you are right, would you want someone with measles
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:19 PM
Jan 2015

in your waiting room infecting all your other patients. Do you want to be the doctor that has to tell some parent that their kid has died from measles due to non vaccination, and that you did not force them to get the vaccine against their wishes which they now see was a stupid move???

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
66. Not true. My doctor drops patients who don't follow his treatment plans.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:34 PM
Jan 2015

His job is to keep healthy people healthy, and to make sick people better. If you aren't being seen regularly and don't follow his treatment plans, he'll drop you from his patient list. I know, because I was dropped at one point after not getting a checkup in a year and a half and ignoring a warning letter from his office. Luckily, by the time I went to make an appointment again, he was accepting new patients and I was able to get back on his patient list. According to his nurse, most people aren't that lucky.

And nothing is off limits...weight, lifestyle, drug use, etc. He takes a holistic view of his patients health, and expects his patients to do the same.

FWIW, he's the best doctor I've ever had.

On edit: I should mention that he also doesn't see patients who aren't immunized, and adults who refuse boosters, unless there's a medical reason for it.

RobinA

(9,878 posts)
77. I'd Drop
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jan 2015

this tyrant like a hot potato, and I generally follow medical advice. This is your idea of a good doctor? I guess this is life in America in 2015. Mean and unempathetic. No one can disagree with this narcissist or they get the boot?

My mother went to an obstetrician in the '50's who made the newly pregnant agree to not gain more than 15 pounds or take a hike. No baby weight on the way home from the delivery for this guy's patients! Disgusting then, disgusting now.

 

CanSocDem

(3,286 posts)
30. Measles in the Age of Reason.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:10 AM
Jan 2015


Back in the 50's when doctors and hospitals and over-the counter drugs were few and far between, I and at least half my classmates contracted this disease that swept through my small town like the black plague.

We got to stay home from school mostly because it was too uncomfortable to sit in our desks. The few un-afflicted families would occasionally bring their kids over for a visit in hopes of contracting the disease. In the Age of Reason, such childhood diseases were considered helpful in the development of natural 'anti-bodies' and in most cases left no lingering effects.

This was the technique in treating chicken pox and mumps as well.

.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
43. And that killed or permanently maimed children.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 12:02 PM
Jan 2015

The chance was low, but that strategy killed or permanently harmed some children.

We don't vaccinate against these diseases for entertainment value.

In 2013, there were 145,700 measles deaths globally – about 400 deaths every day or 16 deaths every hour.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.

From the WHO

deafskeptic

(463 posts)
76. Exactly. I was born 3 years before the Rubella Vaccine.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:35 PM
Jan 2015

The vaccine didn't come out till 1969.

I was born deaf as a result of prenatal Rubella. It could have been worse though; Others with my syndrome (congenital rubella syndrome) have come out much worse than I did.

It can cause a host of problems like eye diseases, heart problems, ID,autism and miscarriages . My dad who was an M.D. never really got over it.

Had my brother been given a vaccine, It's likely I would not have been born deaf or worse. My mother showed no signs of rubella so she didn't know she had it until about 9 months after I was born.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
33. I fear the waiting rooms of hospitals and Doctors the most of all.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jan 2015

Parents of unvaccinated children should expect illness and perhaps use a house call Doctor.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
34. I won't see anti-vaxxers either.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 10:37 AM
Jan 2015

I just don't have time for that level of stupidity, ignorance, arrogance and stubbornness. If they won't follow my medical advice about vaccines, why should I be confident that they will follow my medical advice about anything else?

I mean, medical knowledge is presumably what they showed up at the clinic for. If they're not going to follow it, there are plenty of people out in the waiting room who will.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
42. That's good.
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 11:59 AM
Jan 2015


The stupidity of this is putting a bunch of people at risk. I wonder if polio could make a comeback.
I wonder if it is advisable for people over 50 to get a booster MMR shot, and throw in polio and TB while you're at it.

HappyMe

(20,277 posts)
65. I really don't want or need to get that sick
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:26 PM
Jan 2015

because of some fool's ignorance. There should be no need for people to be considering booster shots.

Aristus

(66,095 posts)
82. I'm not sure who you are talking about.
Sat Jan 31, 2015, 01:14 AM
Jan 2015

Arrogance? Me?

I'm not the one ignoring medical science.

And it's not arrogance to want anti-vaxxers to steer clear of my clinic. I don't want them wasting my time. Or the time of anyone who is waiting to be seen.

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
67. I'm all for taunting your T-cells with mashed bacteria husks, but they seem madder at
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:53 PM
Jan 2015

Judi Chamberlin than Jenny McCarthy with this move

mainer

(12,013 posts)
68. One doc I know reserves one day every 2 weeks just to see the unvaccinated kids
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 02:54 PM
Jan 2015

All the other days are reserved for the vaccinated kids. So the two populations don't mix. The problem is, if there's a single unvaccinated kid who's incubating measles, that kid is sharing a waiting room filled with other unvaccinated and vulnerable kids.

proverbialwisdom

(4,959 posts)
73. Substantive pushback comment... "even pro-vaccine parents have a threshold of compliance."
Fri Jan 30, 2015, 09:44 PM
Jan 2015

Just saw this citation filled comment and, overlooking the need for editing, it's definitely worth a read. Check it out for the information. Please ignore any snark or editorializing.

http://www.ageofautism.com/2015/01/losing-every-battle-winning-the-war.html#comments

COMMENT:

...would like to address a statement in this excellent article, “…and see vaccination rates return to historical highs.”

Vaccination rates are at already at historical highs- right now. According to the CDC, from the Measles vaccine licensing in 1963 through 1986 measles coverage never exceeded 70% in the surveyed population (toddlers). Rates only broke 90% in 1996- a convergence of the NVICP indemnifying manufacturers and providers (1986), Vaccines for Children (1994), the funding scheme that provides all “required” vaccines free of charge, and the dusting off and expanding State School attendance small pox requirements to include the routine childhood infections (late 70’s). Only then did rates reached today’s near universal levels. In the case of measles we had 23 years where 30% of the population was not getting vaccinated by 36 months, yet there were not the raging epidemics of the type we are warned will occur if today if the 96% drops to 95.8%. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf
California Rates https://www.scribd.com/doc/107086647/AoA-CA-Slides

The idea that there was a “Golden Age” of vaccination in the past when parents were more rational, less hysterical, and vaccine rates and acceptance was higher than the stupid parents of today are creating is absolutely false.

The “Golden Age” meme was created by the Vaccine Industry to push state legislation to eliminate non-medical exemptions, by pointing to rising exemption rates and misrepresenting that vaccination rates are falling. The rates simply are not falling- the expanding schedule, and the way exemptions measured, (a student who is fully vaccinated for all requirements but one dose of one vaccine, or opts out of chicken pox), is measured as both “vaccinated”, and “exempt”. In Vermont, Washington and California Vaccine Industry proponents lobbied the legislature with CDC 431x314 “only 65% coverage” statistics - an assessment of 35 month old toddlers (not in school therefore not subject to requirements) to a dream, kitchen sink schedule of everything by certain age milestones, so exclusionary that it calls anyone missing a single dose or date as “unvaccinated”. The Vaccine Industry pretended it was the school age rates and vaccines, and implied that 35% of kids are completely unvaccinated. When in reality in all states exceed 90% kindergarten adherence, and 95% 7th grade adherence to school requirements. Fear mongered California and Washington legislators fell for it, Vermont legislators figured it out and rejected the legislation. Anyone without young children has no idea of the schedule today, and that a child borne today will have more vaccines by the time he is two years old than anyone over 30 has had in their whole life.

<>

Part of the current assault on non-medical exemptions is because of the doubling of the exemption rate from 1-3% to 2-5% caused by adding Chicken Pox. This put the Vaccine Industry on notice that even pro-vaccine parents have a threshold of compliance. I have often heard voiced, “Look, I get Polio, and Diphtheria, but Chicken Pox? Really?” The Vaccine Industry is rushing to create a regulatory framework in which it will be near impossible to opt out of any of the 200 plus vaccines that are in the pipeline, for conditions equally minor as Chicken Pox, or as rare and difficult to contract as Hep B. The Vaccine Industry wants to force you to get your child injected when their common wart vaccine is ready. The number of people exercising exemptions today is within the margin of error of most CDC surveys.

<>

Posted by: VaccineInformation | January 30, 2015 at 12:30 PM

Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)

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