SOME DOCTORS WON'T SEE PATIENTS WITH ANTI-VACCINE VIEWS
Source: AP
BY ALICIA CHANG
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- With California gripped by a measles outbreak, Dr. Charles Goodman posted a clear notice in his waiting room and on Facebook: His practice will no longer see children whose parents won't get them vaccinated.
"Parents who choose not to give measles shots, they're not just putting their kids at risk, but they're also putting other kids at risk - especially kids in my waiting room," the Los Angeles pediatrician said.
It's a sentiment echoed by a small number of doctors who in recent years have "fired" patients who continue to believe debunked research linking vaccines to autism. They hope the strategy will lead parents to change their minds; if that fails, they hope it will at least reduce the risk to other children in the office.
The tough-love approach - which comes amid the nation's second-biggest measles outbreak in at least 15 years, with at least 98 cases reported since last month - raises questions about doctors' ethical responsibilities. Most of the measles cases have been traced directly or indirectly to Disneyland in Southern California.
FULL story at link.
Pediatrician Charles Goodman vaccinates 1 year- old Cameron Fierro with the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, or MMR vaccine at his practice in Northridge, Calif., Thursday, Jan. 29, 2015. Some doctors are adamant about not accepting patients who don't believe in vaccinations, with some saying they don't want to be responsible for someone's death from an illness that was preventable. Others warn that refusing treatment to such people will just send them into the arms of quacks. (AP Photo/Damian Dovarganes)
Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MEASLES_OUTBREAK?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-01-29-19-20-43
Old and In the Way
(37,540 posts)Gets a shot he/she will live with for w4 hrs...then...nothing. Meanwhile the rest of society is protected. What else can I say? Price of living in an educated society.
msongs
(67,193 posts)instead of using doctors
jeff47
(26,549 posts)WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU KEEP GOING TO THAT DOCTOR?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
The fact that anti-vaxxers want to keep seeing the doctors who they believe are deliberately harming their children demonstrates the insanity and illogic of their position.
srican69
(1,426 posts)postulater
(5,075 posts)"Children with measles were also more likely to be not given breast milk in the initial two years of life."
"For Measles elimination, mother's education on breast feeding and appropriate weaning practices is required."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25523721
How do they tell whether the child has measles because they weren't shot up or because they weren't breast-fed? To arbitrarily ban one group and not the other is discriminatory.
Where does it end?
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)Breastfeeding is in no way shape or form a substitute for vaccination at 1 year. It is also why the very young are so susceptible to the disease. There is an immunity gap from when maternal protection ends and the first vaccination is administered.
Sparhawk60
(359 posts)There you go again, bringing "facts", "medical knowledge" and "reality" in to the discussion. Next thing we know, you will be trying to have a rational, intelligent discussion on an issue that impacts on the entire society.
What type of discussion board would this be if every one was rational like you?
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)That makes none.
davsand
(13,420 posts)I'm certainly no virologist, but the way it was explained to me, is that the baby is born with a certain level of immunity that is conveyed by the mother in utero. With breastfeeding some of the immunity will be maintained as long as the baby is nursing full time, however, some stuff does not convey with breastfeeding, and THAT is where the early vaccinations come into play. As the baby starts to eat food and nurse less, there are fewer antibodies present from the mom, and the baby is at greater risk for infection from a wider array of bugs.
Like, I said, that is how it was explained to me...
Laura
DRoseDARs
(6,810 posts)Duh?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)There's this thing called science.
Why are children with measles less likely to be given breast milk? Assuming that is true, it is probably because mothers who don't bother to breast-feed their babies or can't breast-feed their babies because they work too hard or have a health problem may also be impeded from immunizing them by their negligent attitude or their work schedule or their health problem.
There is not causation there. If you really think there is and are not as I hope just joking, please provide a link to support the idea that there is a causal relationship between not breast-feeding and measles.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Breast feeding isn't always a choice. Some mothers can't do it, for whatever reasons. Some infants don't HAVE mothers who care for them, so there's that, too.
But every parent can vaccinate their children.
With electronic records, a doctor can see which patient has been vaccinated. I think what the doctors are saying is that they don't want to take on patients who refuse to comply with a vaccination protocol, and that IS their prerogative.
If a patient (or the patient's guardian) doesn't AGREE with a basic prophylactic protocol prescribed by the doctor, why would the patient want to see that doctor in the first place? The doctor and patient have to be on the same page, otherwise it's a pointless exercise.
Elmer S. E. Dump
(5,751 posts)Unless they want their baby to die. Some women just don't produce enough milk.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)I hope this idea "spreads" across the country.
SoapBox
(18,791 posts)I keep waiting for polio to break out.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here is an article that proposes a way to protect your infant too young to immunize from these diseases while encouraging people to immunize themselves and their children.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026155049
SunSeeker
(51,369 posts)I was really scared bringing my son in when he was a baby and was too young for shots. This kind of policy would have given me more comfort. Unvaccinated kids put infants at risk.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)barbtries
(28,702 posts)i would have the same policy. ignorance and hubris making people unsafe. it's so stupid.
blackcrow
(156 posts)I got Guillain-Barre from a flu shot, and my neurologist tells me I could die if I get another vaccination in a certain set of vaccinations. Yet in order to see Dr. Ignorant Hitler, I'd have to risk my kid's life.
I don't think so. If people are so worried about contagion, let them wear masks and wash their hands.
FunkyLeprechaun
(2,383 posts)You really have to depend on herd immunity- IE the rest of the population that is healthy enough to receive vaccinations. You should be happy that the doctor is looking out for his patients' health and welfare, even those who cannot get vaccinated due to health reasons.
If your child is healthy enough to be vaccinated, he SHOULD be vaccinated. I wasn't healthy enough to get vaccinated until I was like 7-8 years old. Until I could get vaccinated, I depended on herd immunity BIG time and I was thankful for that.
Wearing masks and washing hands are not always enough.
shawn703
(2,702 posts)And I wouldn't say I'm the idiot for that stance. Maybe there's a one in a million chance of sustaining an injury in a car accident only because a seatbelt was worn, but there's a higher chance of sustaining an injury without it. And if the passenger is flying around the interior of the car during an accident, myself and my other passengers would suffer as well. Unfortunately you had the one in a million complication blackcrow, but you're putting your kid and the people around you at much greater risk without vaccinations.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)There is no scientific evidence of a causal relation between flu vaccine and GBS.
Paula Sims
(877 posts)as well as other live antigens that get injected including Botox. It it weren't for the high rate success I've had with my allergy shots, I would double think those too. A friend of mine had GBS and it's not pretty -- pretty much MS-lite. He was told he'd "grow out of it" and "it will pass" -- that was 25 years old and getting worse.
Here are the articles:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19388722
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/flushot.htm
My immune system can't take the shots because I get sick and then the level of immunity goes back to what it was -- I'm 48 and I have the immunity of an 80 year old. Pretty good health except for nasty sinus infections. Can't do anything about it.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Why would you make the decision to risk your kid's life so that you could see a certain doctor?
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)There is a small, non-zero risk of GBS from flu immunizations, though the evidence is very scant.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)It doesn't do anything to prevent people from catching it.
Mugu
(2,887 posts)HappyMe
(20,277 posts)I don't see anything wrong with this.
There's an outbreak in Phoenix now.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Posted on June 21, 2013 by Petrie-Flom Center
[center]Guest Post: Crack Down on Those Who Dont Vaccinate?: A Response to Art Caplan[/center]
As of Friday, June 28, this post is closed to further comments. We want to thank the many readers who have engaged in a vigorous and civil discussion on the recent posts to the Bill of Health that engage questions related to the debate over vaccines. In general, we do not moderate discussions on the site. However, due to an increasing number of comments that violate our policies regarding abusive and defamatory language and the sharing of personal information, we are closing these posts to comment.
By Mary Holland, J.D.
Mary Holland is Research Scholar and Director of the Graduate Legal Skills Program at NYU Law School. She has published articles on vaccine law and policy, and is the co-editor of Vaccine Epidemic: How Corporate Greed, Biased Science and Coercive Government Threaten Our Human Rights, Our Health and Our Children (Skyhorse Publishing, 2012).
Dr. Art Caplan recently posted an editorial, Liability for Failure to Vaccinate, on this blog. He argues that those who contract infectious disease should be able to recover damages from unvaccinated people who spread it. If you miss work, or your baby has to go to the hospital because of infectious disease, the unvaccinated person who allegedly caused the harm should pay. Dr. Caplan suggests that such liability is apt because vaccines are safe and effective. He sees no difference between this situation and slip-and-fall or car accidents due to negligence. Arguing that a tiny minority continue to put the rest of us at risk, he suggests that public health officials can catch the perpetrators and hold them to account through precise disease tracing.
Dr. Caplans assertions to the contrary, vaccines are neither completely safe nor completely effective. In fact, from a legal standpoint, vaccines, like all prescription drugs, are unavoidably unsafe. [See, e.g., Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, 562 U.S. __ (2011).?] Industry considered its liability for vaccine injury so significant that it lobbied Congress for the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, providing doctors and vaccine manufacturers almost blanket liability protection for injuries caused by federally recommended vaccines. [See Authorizing Legislation.] The liability risk was so serious that the federal government created a special tribunal under the 1986 Act, the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, to pay the injured. Moreover, the Supreme Court in 2011 decided Bruesewitz v. Wyeth, prohibiting any individual from filing a civil suit for a defectively designed vaccine in any court in the country. Industrys extraordinary protection against liability for vaccine injury does not correspond with glib statements, like those of Dr. Caplan, that vaccines are safe and effective. On the contrary, the law acknowledges that vaccines cause injury and death to some, with no screening in place to mitigate harm. Dr. Caplan notes that public health officials have tried to debunk false fears about vaccine safety. Yet the Institute of Medicine, one the countrys most prestigious health organizations, has acknowledged repeatedly that there are many known vaccine injuries, such as seizures from the measles-mumps-rubella vaccine, anaphylaxis from the meningococcal vaccine, and encephalitis from the varicella vaccine. Even more troubling than the identified injuries is the number of potential vaccine adverse effect relationships for which the evidence is not sufficient to either prove or disprove causality. (Committee to Review Adverse Effects of Vaccines, Institute of Medicine, Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and Causality (Kathleen Straton et al. eds., 2012).)
<>
Harvard Bill of Health Blog Guest Post: Mary Holland On Art Caplan's Vax Crackdowns
Posted by Age of Autism at January 30, 2015 at 5:45 AM
We invite you to read Oregon Law Review: Herd Immunity and Compulsory Childhood Vaccination: Does the Theory Justify the Law? By MARY HOLLAND AND CHASE E. ZACHARY
ABSTRACT: Compulsory childhood vaccination is a cornerstone of U.S. public health policy. All fifty states compel children to vaccinate against many infectious diseases to achieve so-called herd immunity, a scientific theory that attempts to explain how societies protect themselves against infectious disease. This Article explores both the theory and practice of herd immunity. The authors evaluate the scientific assumptions underlying the theory, how the theory applies in law, a game theory approach to herd immunity, and a possible framework for rational policymaking.
The Article argues that herd immunity is unattainable for most diseases and is therefore an irrational goal. Instead, the authors conclude that herd effect is attainable and that a voluntary vaccination marketplace, not command-and-control compulsion, would most
efficiently achieve that goal.
Our colleague Mary Holland wrote this post (above) for the Harvard Bill of Health Blog in June of 2013.
<>
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Age of Autism Midweek Mashup: Minneapolis, Minnesota, Measles, Minnie, and More
By Dan Olmsted
...As I was packing to head to Minneapolis on Friday, I had CNBC on in the background when Kaiser-Permanente CEO Bernard Tyson was interviewed. Since K-P is my own HMO, I turned it up and listened. The vaccine question soon came up in the context of the measles cases emanating from Disneyland.
"Well you know," Tyson said, "we've seen in the country a decline in parents bringing their children in for immunization. We make that a big push at Kaiser -- studies show it helps and it's the right preventive step and we have outreach programs to parents.
"I think the measles and what is happening there is another sign of what can happen very quickly when something reaches epidemic proportions."
To me that's the standard pabulum you expect from an outfit like KP. But the next question and answer were interesting.
Question: "The parents who are worried about their children potentially getting autism from that? What do you tell them?"
Answer: "Well, those are legitimate concerns," he said, emphasizing the last two words. I nearly dropped my toothbrush. "I don't want to excuse away responsible parents asking very responsible questions. In some cases we don't have the answers in the health care community. I think we have the latest evidence to show that the connection is very slim if at all, but I think the questions are very important and we need to figure out how to engage in the right conversations so people are making informed decisions."
Except for his view that the autism link is very slim if at all, these comments are quite reasonable. In fact, as I said in Minneapolis after reading them, they reflect the spirit of our gathering there and also of our book, Vaccines 2.0. Parents are confused and concerned, as well they should be given the rise of chronic and developmental illnesses concurrent with the exploding and bloated vaccine schedule. Someone like KP's Tyson, who has a business to run, is probably a lot more sensitive to the pushback from parents than insulated and unaccountable vaccine zealots like Paul Offit and the crowd at the CDC.
<>
Posted by Age of Autism at January 28, 2015
About the Authors
Mark Blaxill is the father of a daughter diagnosed with autism, co-founder of the Canary Party, and editor at large for "Age of Autism." He has authored several scientific publications on autism. He received his A.B. from Princeton and an MBA from Harvard. He co-authored the book, "The Age of Autism."
Dan Olmsted is co-author of "Age of Autism" and Editor of the blog of the same name. He was an original staff member of USA Today and Senior Editor for USA Weekend magazine and United Press International. He is a member of the National Press Club.
Godhumor
(6,437 posts)proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)DAVOS 2015 - WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM
How health care is changing: Kaiser Permanente CEO
Tom DiChristopher
Friday, 23 Jan 2015 | 7:13 AM ET
VIDEO
Health care utilization is not dropping, but shifting toward a greater focus on outpatient care, Kaiser Permanente Chairman and CEO Bernard Tyson told CNBC on Friday.
"In our environment, when you're in the hospital, we're already preparing to care for you in the outpatient setting," he said in a "Squawk Box" interview from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. "We can get someone out of the hospital faster. However they are handed off to the outpatient side of the organization, so the continuity of care continues, its just in a very different setting."
Tyson said that model helps make health care more affordable for Kaiser Permanente and marks a change from the industry's mindset 30 years ago, when people came to providers, he said. "Now we're distributing care out," he said.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/zinamoukheiber/2014/09/30/kaiser-permanente-chairman-bernard-tyson-on-the-kaiserfication-of-america/
One neutral function of AOA is to simply aggregate autism news. Shouldn't all interested parties find that service useful? Additionally, looking back on their archives, it's fascinating to observe how many of their analyses are confirmed over time.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)High functioning. Age of autism is bullshit. Her doctors (both MD and Psych) both state the same. As does anyone educated on the subject.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Age_of_Autism
Autism isn't a disease that needs treatment.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)"AT LEAST WE CAN BEGIN TO LISTEN MORE CAREFULLY AND REALIZE THAT THIS IS A MULTIFACETED PROBLEM WITH PEOPLE HAVING VERY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES."
- Dr. Thomas Insel
@2:23 (bottom video)
IACC Meeting (9/23/14): Video excerpt of public comment by parent, Megan Davenhall, with transcript
FULL TRANSCRIPT:
"What we're here to say is absolutely nothing new, nothing that this committee hasn't heard before from multiple public commenters over the years. There's a huge subset of individuals with the label of autism who were not born with autism. These children, young adults and adults who were born as typically developing healthy children and then regressed into autism. This is not the autism that you see in our highly functioning adults, the way that Mr. Robinson described himself. This is not what we are talking about. But we don't have another word; we have autism. So we are talking about high functioning adults, people who love who they are and should celebrate who they are. And we're talking about kids who are sick. They are two different things, and we call it all autism.
<>
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Thomas Insel is right, autism IS multifaceted, which is why it's a SPECTRUM disorder. It's not two different things, it's MANY different things, all with something in common during early development.
Quit quote mining.
Megan Davenhall is nothing more than a parent with no medical/science background. She spouts woo because her child is autistic and she has to blame SOMETHING. She is nothing. No one. No education. Thinking Mom, my ass. Her thoughts are bullshit. Everything you have posted is bullshit.
Once again, woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo woo.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)...In regressive autism, the skills are lost in the second year of life, while in early onset autism, skills are lost in the first year of life. There was general agreement that symptom onset is on a continuum between regression and non-regression and that defining the borders between the two can be difficult. Diagnostic certainty is particularly problematic because most parents are not going to pick up a regression of acquired skills unless the child has acquired language which then is lost.
More: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101689682
J Child Neurol. Author manuscript; available in PMC Sep 15, 2008.
Published in final edited form as:
J Child Neurol. Feb 2006; 21(2): 170172.
doi: 10.2310/7010.2006.00032
Developmental Regression and Mitochondrial Dysfunction in a Child With Autism
Jon S. Poling, MD, PhD, Richard E. Frye, MD, PhD, John Shoffner, MD, and Andrew W. Zimmerman, MD
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)are confusing ONSET with having the disorder. The DSM-V definition isn't saying what you (or AoA) think it is. If you are autistic, you are born with it. It may not present itself until later, but you are born with it. I suggest you keep up with current research.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/03/26/294446735/brain-changes-suggest-autism-starts-in-the-womb
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/274655.php
http://www.webmd.com/brain/autism/news/20140627/ultrasounds-autism
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-26750786
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)or "thinking moms" or in support of Andrew Wakefield is ACCEPTED science, no many how many times you repeat yourself.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Just keep going around in the same circles...
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Proverbial(lackof)Wisdom has been posting age of autism and natural news links trying to refute actual science for quite some time... It's an old, tired trope. No amount of fact-based research will change that poster's mind (like most fuckwit anti-vaxxers). I've stopped trying to use facts when arguing with anti-vaxxers. For every fact I bring up, they have 15 links full of unsubstantiated bullshit that I have to read through an refute. So now, I show my disdain and ridicule the plebeians. Fuck anti-vaxxers! They should be arrested for child abuse and removed from society, seeing as they don't want to participate in said society.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)And I'm not an anti-vaxxer in any way, shape, or form. Not to make things personal, but your post is pure fiction and your argument weak, like this ridiculous dodge (post 4): http://www.democraticunderground.com/101697124
Silly how similar, IMO, although completely baseless.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)You come in with age of autism, an anti-vaxx site. Every. Fucking. Time.
You may be right that you don't post from Natural News (and if you don't, then I apologize for that accusation), but AoA is the SAME FUCKING THING, and I don't apologize for that. 100% bullshit. You don't want to look like an anti-vaxxer, quit posting anti-vaxxer bullshit.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Fuck your woo.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Anti-vaxx crankery is not good science, and AOA is a hub for that nonsense.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)That would be censorship, not to mention an absence of intellectual integrity.
Of course "anti-vaxx crankery is not good science," however, the claim that "AOA is a hub for that nonsense" is false. Such a gross mischaracterization warrants identifying specific examples of statements which cannot be supported by science, yeah, "quote mining." HINT: None exist, otherwise, show me.
Ironically, you have a problem with that, too?
christx30
(6,241 posts)accurate or not. It's does it violate the TOS? Personal attacks are the majority of the posts I've juried.
If someone posted something that said climate change is exclusively caused by Santa Claus feeding his elves, that post would survive. If someone called the poster an idiot, THAT post would be hidden.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)The cognitive dissonance caused by this subject matter is tough for everyone.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)YOUR posts from AoA are canned. Everyone else supports the actual science here. AoA is NOT a scientific journal, and is not accepted science. No matter how many times you try to claim such. Trolling vaccine threads with AoA quackery is an assholish thing to do, however.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)Like I said, woo is always allowed on DU. It's unfortunate, but true.
Real science gets ignored by woo practitioners such as yourself.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)All you are is woo!
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)a KNOWN woo site with ZERO credibility in the medical/science world.
One does not have to read it to know it's bullshit. Vaccines save lives. Because of the bullshit you like to post, we're dealing with a measles outbreak in the western US. Vaccines do NOT cause autism. Andrew Wakefield is the progenitor of this shit, and he has been debunked and stripped of his medical license because of the ethics involved in his "study". Turns out, he was trying to link the current MMR vaccine to autism in order to sell his OWN vaccine. Every bit of his study was bullshit. Every study done since has 100% refuted his work. You post bullshit. I'm tired of refuting it, so I say woo. Woo woo woo! That's all you do is post fucking woo!
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Incidentally, poster #19 is mixing up Dr. William W Thompson with Dr. Wakefield. See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025531048
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)and ANYONE who sides with him. Dangerous fucking people. He started a movement based on falsified data and lost his medical license for it. And you want to listen to him, and try to get other to listen to him? Quit pushing your anti-vaxxer views here. No one wants to fucking hear it.
rjsquirrel
(4,762 posts)are protecting their other, sane, rational patients.
RobinA
(9,878 posts)Whenever you are in a position of treating people you have a choice about people who won't follow treatment. You can kick them to the curb or you can continue treating them to the extent they will accept. If you continue treatment you have some chance of eventually bringing them around to accepting the treatment they previously wouldn't. Or some of the treatment they wouldn't accept. If you kick them to the curb you have exactly zero chance of ever convincing them of the advantages of the treatment you are offering.
So what gives you the better chance of getting more people treated? And what is your ultimate measure of success? Getting people treated, or getting them to follow your recommendations the first time they are offered?
Demit
(11,238 posts)Why should he put his other patients at risk so that he can proselytize to stubborn people?
I think what he did is a very convincing way to demonstrate the advantages of vaccination. Showing, not telling.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)yet they want to continue to see that doctor.
You aren't going to get a rational discussion that leads to vaccination. Because their behavior is utterly and completely irrational.
FLPanhandle
(7,107 posts)I support this wholeheartedly.
Why risk the health of very young children because of the beliefs of a few anti-science idiots?
livetohike
(22,084 posts)Stop drinking, loose weight, cut down on salt, exercise, take this pill, take that pill and the list goes on.
Now if Medicare puts through the "pay for performance" plan of paying doctors based on successful outcomes, how will they measure those doctors for the patients who don't follow their advice. There are many of them. Will they only take healthy patients? Will this expand to non-Medicare using patients.
It's all thought provoking.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Whereas refusing MMR vaccinations can and does put other people at risk, particularly some of the most vulnerable people in our society like infants and the immuno-compromised.
You may bring up some interesting questions but they aren't what this is about.
demigoddess
(6,640 posts)in your waiting room infecting all your other patients. Do you want to be the doctor that has to tell some parent that their kid has died from measles due to non vaccination, and that you did not force them to get the vaccine against their wishes which they now see was a stupid move???
Xithras
(16,191 posts)His job is to keep healthy people healthy, and to make sick people better. If you aren't being seen regularly and don't follow his treatment plans, he'll drop you from his patient list. I know, because I was dropped at one point after not getting a checkup in a year and a half and ignoring a warning letter from his office. Luckily, by the time I went to make an appointment again, he was accepting new patients and I was able to get back on his patient list. According to his nurse, most people aren't that lucky.
And nothing is off limits...weight, lifestyle, drug use, etc. He takes a holistic view of his patients health, and expects his patients to do the same.
FWIW, he's the best doctor I've ever had.
On edit: I should mention that he also doesn't see patients who aren't immunized, and adults who refuse boosters, unless there's a medical reason for it.
this tyrant like a hot potato, and I generally follow medical advice. This is your idea of a good doctor? I guess this is life in America in 2015. Mean and unempathetic. No one can disagree with this narcissist or they get the boot?
My mother went to an obstetrician in the '50's who made the newly pregnant agree to not gain more than 15 pounds or take a hike. No baby weight on the way home from the delivery for this guy's patients! Disgusting then, disgusting now.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)Back in the 50's when doctors and hospitals and over-the counter drugs were few and far between, I and at least half my classmates contracted this disease that swept through my small town like the black plague.
We got to stay home from school mostly because it was too uncomfortable to sit in our desks. The few un-afflicted families would occasionally bring their kids over for a visit in hopes of contracting the disease. In the Age of Reason, such childhood diseases were considered helpful in the development of natural 'anti-bodies' and in most cases left no lingering effects.
This was the technique in treating chicken pox and mumps as well.
.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The chance was low, but that strategy killed or permanently harmed some children.
We don't vaccinate against these diseases for entertainment value.
Measles vaccination resulted in a 75% drop in measles deaths between 2000 and 2013 worldwide.
From the WHO
deafskeptic
(463 posts)The vaccine didn't come out till 1969.
I was born deaf as a result of prenatal Rubella. It could have been worse though; Others with my syndrome (congenital rubella syndrome) have come out much worse than I did.
It can cause a host of problems like eye diseases, heart problems, ID,autism and miscarriages . My dad who was an M.D. never really got over it.
Had my brother been given a vaccine, It's likely I would not have been born deaf or worse. My mother showed no signs of rubella so she didn't know she had it until about 9 months after I was born.
Paladin
(28,202 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Parents of unvaccinated children should expect illness and perhaps use a house call Doctor.
Aristus
(66,095 posts)I just don't have time for that level of stupidity, ignorance, arrogance and stubbornness. If they won't follow my medical advice about vaccines, why should I be confident that they will follow my medical advice about anything else?
I mean, medical knowledge is presumably what they showed up at the clinic for. If they're not going to follow it, there are plenty of people out in the waiting room who will.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)The stupidity of this is putting a bunch of people at risk. I wonder if polio could make a comeback.
I wonder if it is advisable for people over 50 to get a booster MMR shot, and throw in polio and TB while you're at it.
demigoddess
(6,640 posts)We just may be seeing the ultimate experiment.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)because of some fool's ignorance. There should be no need for people to be considering booster shots.
RobinA
(9,878 posts)in that post. Unspeakable.
Aristus
(66,095 posts)Arrogance? Me?
I'm not the one ignoring medical science.
And it's not arrogance to want anti-vaxxers to steer clear of my clinic. I don't want them wasting my time. Or the time of anyone who is waiting to be seen.
Dr Hobbitstein
(6,568 posts)My daughter's pediatrician won't either. Fuck anti-vaxxers!
on point
(2,506 posts)MisterP
(23,730 posts)Judi Chamberlin than Jenny McCarthy with this move
mainer
(12,013 posts)All the other days are reserved for the vaccinated kids. So the two populations don't mix. The problem is, if there's a single unvaccinated kid who's incubating measles, that kid is sharing a waiting room filled with other unvaccinated and vulnerable kids.
proverbialwisdom
(4,959 posts)Just saw this citation filled comment and, overlooking the need for editing, it's definitely worth a read. Check it out for the information. Please ignore any snark or editorializing.
COMMENT:
...would like to address a statement in this excellent article, and see vaccination rates return to historical highs.
Vaccination rates are at already at historical highs- right now. According to the CDC, from the Measles vaccine licensing in 1963 through 1986 measles coverage never exceeded 70% in the surveyed population (toddlers). Rates only broke 90% in 1996- a convergence of the NVICP indemnifying manufacturers and providers (1986), Vaccines for Children (1994), the funding scheme that provides all required vaccines free of charge, and the dusting off and expanding State School attendance small pox requirements to include the routine childhood infections (late 70s). Only then did rates reached todays near universal levels. In the case of measles we had 23 years where 30% of the population was not getting vaccinated by 36 months, yet there were not the raging epidemics of the type we are warned will occur if today if the 96% drops to 95.8%. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/G/coverage.pdf
California Rates https://www.scribd.com/doc/107086647/AoA-CA-Slides
The idea that there was a Golden Age of vaccination in the past when parents were more rational, less hysterical, and vaccine rates and acceptance was higher than the stupid parents of today are creating is absolutely false.
The Golden Age meme was created by the Vaccine Industry to push state legislation to eliminate non-medical exemptions, by pointing to rising exemption rates and misrepresenting that vaccination rates are falling. The rates simply are not falling- the expanding schedule, and the way exemptions measured, (a student who is fully vaccinated for all requirements but one dose of one vaccine, or opts out of chicken pox), is measured as both vaccinated, and exempt. In Vermont, Washington and California Vaccine Industry proponents lobbied the legislature with CDC 431x314 only 65% coverage statistics - an assessment of 35 month old toddlers (not in school therefore not subject to requirements) to a dream, kitchen sink schedule of everything by certain age milestones, so exclusionary that it calls anyone missing a single dose or date as unvaccinated. The Vaccine Industry pretended it was the school age rates and vaccines, and implied that 35% of kids are completely unvaccinated. When in reality in all states exceed 90% kindergarten adherence, and 95% 7th grade adherence to school requirements. Fear mongered California and Washington legislators fell for it, Vermont legislators figured it out and rejected the legislation. Anyone without young children has no idea of the schedule today, and that a child borne today will have more vaccines by the time he is two years old than anyone over 30 has had in their whole life.
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Part of the current assault on non-medical exemptions is because of the doubling of the exemption rate from 1-3% to 2-5% caused by adding Chicken Pox. This put the Vaccine Industry on notice that even pro-vaccine parents have a threshold of compliance. I have often heard voiced, Look, I get Polio, and Diphtheria, but Chicken Pox? Really? The Vaccine Industry is rushing to create a regulatory framework in which it will be near impossible to opt out of any of the 200 plus vaccines that are in the pipeline, for conditions equally minor as Chicken Pox, or as rare and difficult to contract as Hep B. The Vaccine Industry wants to force you to get your child injected when their common wart vaccine is ready. The number of people exercising exemptions today is within the margin of error of most CDC surveys.
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Posted by: VaccineInformation | January 30, 2015 at 12:30 PM
Response to Omaha Steve (Original post)
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