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Omaha Steve

(99,077 posts)
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 12:52 PM Mar 2015

Searchers find empty second 'black box' from doomed German jetliner that killed 150, including 2 Ame

Source: Faux News

Searchers Wednesday found an empty second “black box” from the doomed German passenger plane that crashed into the Alps, killing 150 people including two Americans.

French President Francois Hollande said the flight data recorder case was found without any contents. The crash apparently dislodged the recorder's memory card which is still missing.

Search teams found the mangled first black box, the cockpit voice recorder, just hours after the Germanwings plane crashed Tuesday. French officials said Wednesday afternoon that investigators had retrieved an audiophile form the recorder with "usable sound and voice." They hope to make conclusions about recordings in a few days.

Investigators need the two black boxes to solve the biggest mystery: what caused the Airbus A320 to descend over an 8-minute period without any pilot indication the aircraft was in trouble. The experienced pilot had the plane at 38,000 feet, but only for a minute. Then suddenly and inexplicably, the jet descended apparently still under control and without a single distress call or a request for permission.

FULL story and video at link. FULL title: Searchers find empty second 'black box' from doomed German jetliner that killed 150, including 2 Americans



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/03/25/investigators-face-daunting-search-for-clues-to-germanwings-flight-disaster/

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Searchers find empty second 'black box' from doomed German jetliner that killed 150, including 2 Ame (Original Post) Omaha Steve Mar 2015 OP
That is so weird titaniumsalute Mar 2015 #1
Hopefully this isn't another frozen pitot tube/instrumentation gone awry issue. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #4
Like a movie weird AngryAmish Mar 2015 #10
So sad. Makes one suspect foul play without additional information AllyCat Mar 2015 #2
Not likely. It means the plane augured into the mountain at full speed. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #3
I thought they would be indestructible. The Stranger Mar 2015 #7
Nothing is "indestructible" Kelvin Mace Mar 2015 #9
I thought they would be designed to . . . . The Stranger Mar 2015 #11
Nope, 310 mph Kelvin Mace Mar 2015 #12
I see The Stranger Mar 2015 #15
Most likely we will see full, real-time upload of all data from the planes to a central monitoring AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #19
Since the vast majority of crashes are on take off and landing when speeds are much lower hack89 Mar 2015 #13
Cool The Stranger Mar 2015 #14
I do think that with modern technology we can build better recorders hack89 Mar 2015 #16
It's an expensive undertaking. Not only does it have to survive the crash, but it has to be AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #17
That's why remote real time monitoring might be the solution hack89 Mar 2015 #23
I think so as well. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #25
That is the promise of black boxes. tridim Mar 2015 #27
I haven't seen photos of a discernable impact B2G Mar 2015 #8
True. Just seems strange there was no contact AllyCat Mar 2015 #34
Unfortunately, it appears my fear was not off the mark. AllyCat Mar 2015 #47
Yep, sucks. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #48
question grasswire Mar 2015 #5
At flight level or 8,000 ft? Or ground level? Agschmid Mar 2015 #6
Not likely considering they were over the Alps. Angleae Mar 2015 #44
So the memory card is on that mountain somewhere bigworld Mar 2015 #18
Assuming it was in there in the first place. nt B2G Mar 2015 #20
Rationally, what would lead anyone to assume it's not there? LanternWaste Mar 2015 #30
Potentially, or as likely, pieces or ashes of that memory card. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #22
There's a pretty good description of the box and cards here bigworld Mar 2015 #21
The BBC articles says the 2nd black box hasn't been found. nt B2G Mar 2015 #32
Geneva- Hadron collider maindawg Mar 2015 #24
Ugh. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #26
Sounds like you could get a job at CNN... PoliticAverse Mar 2015 #29
CNN's MH370 expert says Vladimir Putin ordered special forces to steal MH370 jakeXT Mar 2015 #41
:facepalm: jeff47 Mar 2015 #31
Three little problems jmowreader Mar 2015 #33
Problem 4: It crashed ~140 miles before it got to Geneva Thor_MN Mar 2015 #36
Problem 5... jmowreader Mar 2015 #38
ok maindawg Mar 2015 #39
Leave it to Fox News to confuse "audio file" with "audiophile". DisgustipatedinCA Mar 2015 #28
First thing I spotted! BumRushDaShow Mar 2015 #35
AUTOCORRECT IS NEVER WRONG. NEVAR! AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #37
A detachable memory card in the flight recorder? Angleae Mar 2015 #40
Maybe they'll find the Quick Access Recorder jakeXT Mar 2015 #42
This assumes the plane had one to begin with. Angleae Mar 2015 #45
This is going to feed conspiracy theories. PersonNumber503602 Mar 2015 #43
The empty recorder has been scrapped, but the article now contains Snowden's old employer Booz Allen jakeXT Mar 2015 #46

titaniumsalute

(4,742 posts)
1. That is so weird
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 01:03 PM
Mar 2015

I'm a private pilot. I don't pretend to know much about airliners. But how two very experienced pilots could be in a controlled descent from 38,000 ft with no maneuvers to fix it, or report it via distress, is bizarro.

If the auto pilot was on (which in 99.9% cases it would be) I suppose something could have gone awry and the plane descended. But when you are flying at 38,000 feet and you start descending you would feel it. That is more than 3,000 feet per minute descent which is rather quick for a large jet.

AllyCat

(16,039 posts)
2. So sad. Makes one suspect foul play without additional information
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 01:08 PM
Mar 2015

So strange that additional information is apparently, not there.

Safe passage to all and peace to their families and loved ones.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
3. Not likely. It means the plane augured into the mountain at full speed.
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 01:15 PM
Mar 2015

Black boxes aren't indestructible. They might yet find the component.

The Stranger

(11,297 posts)
7. I thought they would be indestructible.
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 01:46 PM
Mar 2015

That's the whole point.

If the black box doesn't survive the crash, it hasn't served its fundamental purpose.

 

Kelvin Mace

(17,469 posts)
9. Nothing is "indestructible"
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:08 PM
Mar 2015

It is designed to be as damage resistant as possible, but the forces involved in slamming into a mountain at 600 mph is problematic.

The Stranger

(11,297 posts)
11. I thought they would be designed to . . . .
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:10 PM
Mar 2015

. . . withstand the forces involved in slamming into a mountain at 600 mph.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
19. Most likely we will see full, real-time upload of all data from the planes to a central monitoring
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:46 PM
Mar 2015

entity before we see a massive overhaul of the black box system.

Edit: Nearly there already, as the 'lost' Malaysia air flight demonstrated, the engines upload data to a satellite network at periodic intervals.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
13. Since the vast majority of crashes are on take off and landing when speeds are much lower
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:22 PM
Mar 2015

they are only required to survive 310 mph crashes.

Currently, EUROCAE specifies that a recorder must be able to withstand an acceleration of 3400 g (33 km/s²) for 6.5 milliseconds. This is roughly equivalent to an impact velocity of 270 knots (310 mph) and a deceleration or crushing distance of 450 cm. Additionally, there are requirements for penetration resistance, static crush, high and low temperature fires, deep sea pressure, sea water immersion, and fluid immersion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder

hack89

(39,171 posts)
16. I do think that with modern technology we can build better recorders
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:30 PM
Mar 2015

that are much more survivable but I suspect the issue is that the airlines are resistant to spending that kind of money. A another alternative is real time monitoring using satellite communications so the data is recorded at a ground station somewhere. One of the interesting things to come out of the ML 370 is that Rolls Royce was monitoring the engines in real time. The Air France plane that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic also had a monitoring system that provided valuable data well before they found the black boxes.

Engine monitoring systems involve using sensors placed in various locations in an aircraft engine to gather information about the engine’s performance. The sensors provide real-time information to pilots on the operation of the engines and also capture data for analysis of the performance of the engine over time. The data captured reveals important information about the health of the engine. For example, sensors will monitor how much fuel it takes to make a set amount of power. Increases over time in the amount of fuel consumed would indicate a degrading of the efficiency of the engine, which means the engine is more expensive to operate and it will need maintenance to restore its efficiency. Sensors can also detect impending failures and notify both the crew and ground stations.

The data from the sensors are accumulated and transmitted at regular intervals to ground stations monitored by the engine manufacturers. Alert messages indicating anomalies are instantly transmitted. According to Rolls-Royce’s website, their aircraft engine data is transmitted via satellite feed. Rolls- Royce would analyze the data submitted and make recommendations to the airline for engine maintenance, as appropriate.

In the case of Flight MH370, analysis of the engine data captured by Rolls-Royce could provide important information with regard to engine performance at the time the transponder stopped transmitting. This information would indicate, for example, if the engines were running properly or if certain parts were running too fast, too slow or too hot or if the engine was running at all.

In the Air France AF447 crash in the Atlantic in 2009, the Airbus aircraft monitoring system was critical in giving accident investigators vital clues as to what might have caused the crash before the flight data recorder was found. The aircraft monitoring system indicated unusual aircraft speeds which could have been due to problems with the pitot tubes, critical components of the aircraft’s airspeed indicator. These early clues allowed investigators to hone in on a possible accident cause and allow Airbus to make changes to the pitot tubes well before the black boxes were retrieved, which when recovered and analyzed confirmed the problem with the pitot tubes.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2014/03/13/aircraft-engine-monitoring-how-it-works-and-how-it-could-help-malaysia-air-370-crash-investigtors/

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
17. It's an expensive undertaking. Not only does it have to survive the crash, but it has to be
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:44 PM
Mar 2015

essentially proof from causing any in-flight emergencies of its own. By say, catching fire due to some component failure and short, or spectacular battery failure.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
23. That's why remote real time monitoring might be the solution
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:51 PM
Mar 2015

stream the data off the aircraft and just use the on-plane recorders as backup.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
25. I think so as well.
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:00 PM
Mar 2015

They're partially there already, what with the engines uploading performance and alert data to the manufacturer periodically, in flight. The Rolls Royce Trent 800's talk to someone's satellite network in-flight, but in periodic bursts, not real-time.

Won't be long. Boeing has a system like that too.

tridim

(45,358 posts)
27. That is the promise of black boxes.
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:06 PM
Mar 2015

IMO they should all be scrapped and replaced with recorders that send radio data as a backup.

Anything other than a nuclear blast should not damage a black box.

 

B2G

(9,766 posts)
8. I haven't seen photos of a discernable impact
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:06 PM
Mar 2015

It just looks like debris is scattered every which way.

AllyCat

(16,039 posts)
34. True. Just seems strange there was no contact
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 05:18 PM
Mar 2015

But if they were trying to save a plane full of people, it was something they hoped would be done later.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
48. Yep, sucks.
Thu Mar 26, 2015, 11:09 AM
Mar 2015

I don't think he could have had access to the FDR though, so the missing memory card is an unrelated issue. Doesn't seem like he'd care to sabotage it anyway.

Agschmid

(28,749 posts)
6. At flight level or 8,000 ft? Or ground level?
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 01:36 PM
Mar 2015

Depends on the towers in the area and the burger you are asking about...

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
30. Rationally, what would lead anyone to assume it's not there?
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:13 PM
Mar 2015

Rationally, what would lead anyone to assume it's not there rather than assume it is?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
22. Potentially, or as likely, pieces or ashes of that memory card.
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:49 PM
Mar 2015

Sounds un-fun.

Hopefully the cause can be discerned from the cockpit voice recorder only.

 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
24. Geneva- Hadron collider
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 02:58 PM
Mar 2015
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLarge_Hadron_Collider&ei=3AMTVbKLAouyggSzroP4Ag&usg=AFQjCNFZzrXxLNhzNVPolJI4avp5fi36Fg&sig2=Z2xliFUFzQEDENJ4gG6SVA&bvm=bv.89217033,d.eXY
That plane flew directly over the large hadron collider in Geneva. Thats the machine they built to attemp various experiments involving high energy physics. Some people worried that they might create a black hole. The collider had been shut down , but on the 23rd I beleive they fired that puppy up.I understand it takes a tremendous amount of electricity to run and that it has a radius of about 7 miles. If that plane flew over that machine when it was on, all power would be lost. Not even a radio would work.

I am not a scientist, I heard this theory from another person and thought Id pass it on.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
31. :facepalm:
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:18 PM
Mar 2015

You should stop listening to that person. He or she is about as wrong as the person who claimed space travel is impossible due to time dilation.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
33. Three little problems
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:54 PM
Mar 2015

Problem 1: It's not on. There's a short in one of the magnets and they're figuring out how to fix it now.

Problem 2: It's 500 feet underground and the plane was seven miles above sea level.

Problem 3: If the LHC could bring down a plane that mountain would have about a hundred planes splattered across it from the last time they used the LHC.

 

Thor_MN

(11,843 posts)
36. Problem 4: It crashed ~140 miles before it got to Geneva
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 06:28 PM
Mar 2015

and it would have required a turn to the west to pass over Geneva.

jmowreader

(50,453 posts)
38. Problem 5...
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 07:22 PM
Mar 2015

If this thing really could bring down an airplane, EUROCONTROL would have thrown up a no-fly zone around it.

 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
28. Leave it to Fox News to confuse "audio file" with "audiophile".
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 03:08 PM
Mar 2015

Here's hoping they find the memory card from the second box.

BumRushDaShow

(127,330 posts)
35. First thing I spotted!
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 05:33 PM
Mar 2015


They did update/correct the whole paragraph later, after the OP posting if you check the link again -

Search teams found the mangled first black box, the cockpit voice recorder, just hours after the crash Tuesday. Jouty said an audio file was recovered with "usable sounds and voices." But he said it was too early to draw any conclusions from the recorder.

Angleae

(4,469 posts)
40. A detachable memory card in the flight recorder?
Wed Mar 25, 2015, 10:30 PM
Mar 2015

Last edited Thu Mar 26, 2015, 02:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Such a brillliant idea to use a detachable card in a part who's main use is after a crash.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
42. Maybe they'll find the Quick Access Recorder
Thu Mar 26, 2015, 01:22 AM
Mar 2015

Unlike the FDR, the QAR usually is not required by a national Civil Aviation Authority on commercial flights and is not designed to survive an accident. Despite this, some QARs have survived accidents and provided valuable information beyond that was recorded by the FDR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_access_recorder

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
46. The empty recorder has been scrapped, but the article now contains Snowden's old employer Booz Allen
Thu Mar 26, 2015, 04:35 AM
Mar 2015
Yvonne Selke was assigned to the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, the Pentagon’s secretive satellite mapping office, under a contract with Booz Allen.

“Every death is a tragedy, but seldom does a death affect us all so directly and unexpectedly,” NGA Director Robert Cardillo said.

Booz Allen’s Betty Thompson said Selke had been a dedicated employee for 23 years.

Her husband, Raymond Selke told The Washington Post he was too grief-stricken to give details or discuss the crash.
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