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Bosonic

(3,746 posts)
Sun May 17, 2015, 06:59 PM May 2015

US officials: 'Saudis set to buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan'

Source: IBTimes

Saudi Arabia is said to have taken the "strategic decision" to acquire "off-the-shelf" nuclear weapons from ally Pakistan, senior US officials told the Sunday Times.

Sunni Arab states are increasingly concerned of the repercussions of a deal currently being negotiated between world powers and Shi'ite rival Iran, which they fear may still be able to develop a nuclear bomb.

The deal being negotiated between Iran and the permanent members of the UN Security Council and Germany would see the Shi'ite nation curb its sensitive nuclear programme in exchange for sanctions relief.

"For the Saudis the moment has come," a former US defence official told the Sunday Times last week. "There has been a long-standing agreement in place with the Pakistanis and the House of Saud has now made the strategic decision to move forward."

Read more: http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/us-officials-saudis-set-buy-nuclear-weapons-pakistan-1501733

50 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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US officials: 'Saudis set to buy nuclear weapons from Pakistan' (Original Post) Bosonic May 2015 OP
Hopefully this claim can be corroborated by somebody other than anonymous "former U.S. defense... BlueEye May 2015 #1
Their source is senior US officials bananas May 2015 #6
Preparing To Set Up Their Next 911 billhicks76 May 2015 #30
Time to destroy Pakistani installations and stockpile now n/t cosmicone May 2015 #2
You figure that Hillary will go to war with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? delrem May 2015 #8
Saudi Arabia is no power cosmicone May 2015 #14
That sounds about as smooth as a line from George W. Bush. delrem May 2015 #15
And then where do you think the remaining Pakistani nuclear arsenal would end up? Sobax May 2015 #26
The Saudis already paid for Pakistan's nuclear program. No need to buy it. leveymg May 2015 #32
"Saudi Arabia is no power" EX500rider May 2015 #37
How many of their soldiers are willing to die? cosmicone May 2015 #39
That will end well Recursion May 2015 #27
If a country decides to use a nuclear weapon on another country, you can damn well believe it YOHABLO May 2015 #3
unless terrorists get ahold of it IronLionZion May 2015 #5
Another bloviating war-lover. nt bemildred May 2015 #4
Interesting to see the lack of public reaction from Israel Algernon Moncrieff May 2015 #7
It means Israel has more faith in Saudi Arabia to act rationally then they do Iran Lurks Often May 2015 #12
No, it is an understanding that these are NOT aimed at Israeli. happyslug May 2015 #18
You are entitled to your own opinion Lurks Often May 2015 #34
Excellent analysis of the situation Telcontar May 2015 #36
Discourage anyone from having Nuclear weapons, even if that means boycotting them. happyslug May 2015 #40
500 nuclear weapons is too few Telcontar May 2015 #44
You can destroy any country ability to conduct war with 50 bombs happyslug May 2015 #45
Your focus is on a counter-force strike Telcontar May 2015 #47
This has been war gamed over the last 40 years and the results all always the same happyslug May 2015 #49
Makes sense from Saudi Ariabia's point of view. Surprised kiranon May 2015 #9
I don't think so lancer78 May 2015 #11
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer May 2015 #28
That was the approach with Former Soviet "loose nukes." The Paki nukes already belong to KSA leveymg May 2015 #33
Saudi Arabia and Israel are allies Jesus Malverde May 2015 #10
On the down low is correct. This has been happening for years. At least Iran has known it for year kelliekat44 May 2015 #13
Saudi Arabia has signed the NPT, I don’t think they dare to break it. n/t Little Tich May 2015 #16
Both India and Pakistan dared to break it. delrem May 2015 #17
India and Pakistan never signed the NPT. Little Tich May 2015 #20
OK. Otherwise, my point stands. delrem May 2015 #21
Never really thought of that. But you’re right. n/t Little Tich May 2015 #23
I didn't know there were "off-the-shelf" nuclear weapons. Kablooie May 2015 #19
So, who do you think is arming and funding ISIS? delrem May 2015 #22
I thought it was these guys... Kablooie May 2015 #24
This is the nightmare scenario MFrohike May 2015 #25
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer May 2015 #29
Iran has little to fear from Pakistani Nukes happyslug May 2015 #41
This message was self-deleted by its author Freelancer May 2015 #42
But Pakistan is controlled by Urdu speaking elites NOT Islamic radicals happyslug May 2015 #43
Keeping OBL and giving them nukes. How many favors do they get ? /nt jakeXT May 2015 #31
So where are sanctions against Saudia Arabia a known terrorist supporter on point May 2015 #35
So we're allowing a nation only slightly less fanatic than ISIS and the Taliban to go nuclear? Xithras May 2015 #38
Another nation in the nuclear club. Beauregard May 2015 #46
people should be more worried about this than Iran getting a nuke yurbud May 2015 #48
If true, it may mean the stationing of Russian nuclear missiles in Iran. roamer65 May 2015 #50

BlueEye

(449 posts)
1. Hopefully this claim can be corroborated by somebody other than anonymous "former U.S. defense...
Sun May 17, 2015, 07:34 PM
May 2015

officials." American media sources have not broken this story as of this moment. This being said, it really should not come as a surprise. The world has known full well of Saudi Arabia's support for the Pakistani nuclear program, and the "gentleman's agreement" to supply bombs on demand.

But if Saudi Arabia has moved forward and brought nuclear warheads into their active arsenal, tipping their already operational Shaeen MRBM/IRBM missiles with them... Then this is a huge escalation. Naturally Iran would have a very credible reason to possess its own nukes, and it unfortunately undermines the agreement that the Obama administration has negotiated.

bananas

(27,509 posts)
6. Their source is senior US officials
Sun May 17, 2015, 08:54 PM
May 2015

Here's the Sunday Times article:

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/Middle_East/article1557090.ece

Saudis ‘to get nuclear weapons’
Toby Harnden, Washington, and Christina Lamb
Published: 17 May 2015

SAUDI ARABIA has taken the “strategic decision” to acquire “off-the-shelf” atomic weapons from Pakistan, risking a new arms race in the Middle East, according to senior American officials.

The move by the Gulf kingdom, which has financed much of Islamabad’s nuclear programme over the past three decades, comes amid growing anger among Sunni Arab states over a deal backed by President Barack Obama, which they fear could allow their arch foe, Shi’ite Iran, to develop a nuclear bomb.

The agreement, which is due to be finalised by the end of next month and involves the permanent members of the UN security council and Germany, is designed to roll back part of Tehran’s nuclear programme in return for an easing of UN sanctions.

There are concerns that Saudi Arabia joining the nuclear club might provoke
Turkey and Egypt to follow suit.

“For the Saudis the moment has come,” a former American...
<snip>

 

billhicks76

(5,082 posts)
30. Preparing To Set Up Their Next 911
Mon May 18, 2015, 06:37 AM
May 2015

Heads should've rolled here for protecting the Saudis after 911.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
8. You figure that Hillary will go to war with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?
Sun May 17, 2015, 10:33 PM
May 2015

Or are you "just sayin'" because you think it sounds good?

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
14. Saudi Arabia is no power
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:02 AM
May 2015

They can be taken over by a small town police force -- which is why they are afraid of Iran.

War is not the only option -- although a few dozen targeted air strikes can cripple and destroy Pakistan's nuclear program,
Pakistan can be just squeezed out of money and by funding separatist movements in Baluchistan and Sindh which will bleed Pakistan to its knees.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
15. That sounds about as smooth as a line from George W. Bush.
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:10 AM
May 2015

From someone who apparently has no fucking idea how much $$ the US protected House of Saud has been spending on armaments.

Lord help us.

But I can understand why people who think like you sport a Hillary Clinton avatar. It totally fits.

 

Sobax

(110 posts)
26. And then where do you think the remaining Pakistani nuclear arsenal would end up?
Mon May 18, 2015, 02:57 AM
May 2015

Destabilizing Pakistan is possibly one of the most stupid things anyone could do right now.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
32. The Saudis already paid for Pakistan's nuclear program. No need to buy it.
Mon May 18, 2015, 07:14 AM
May 2015

The CIA looked the other way while AQ Khan stole much of the necessary technology in the 1970s and '80s to develop the "Islamic atomic bomb". The Saudis paid for most of the development costs, and the US did not interfere. Quite the opposite. That was part of the deal worked out between then CIA Director GHW Bush and head of Saudi external intelligence, Prince Turki in early 1976, that included the joint operation of BCCI as the bank for Saudi and Pakistani covert operations, and the creation and training of the Saudi-Pakistani global paramilitary capability which became al-Qaeda. Don't believe me? Google: "Safari Club Bush Turki" or see, http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/280

EX500rider

(10,783 posts)
37. "Saudi Arabia is no power"
Mon May 18, 2015, 11:50 AM
May 2015

They do have the 3erd highest military budget in the world, only the US & China spend more. (they are neck & neck with Russia)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
39. How many of their soldiers are willing to die?
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:35 PM
May 2015

Even in Yemen, they won't have boots on the ground. They wanted Pakistani army to do the dirty work.

It is not just the equipment but men/women operating it that gives a military its edge.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
3. If a country decides to use a nuclear weapon on another country, you can damn well believe it
Sun May 17, 2015, 08:19 PM
May 2015

will happen in the Middle East and not on U.S. soil. The Saudis will get no push back from the U.S. .. you can count on that.

Algernon Moncrieff

(5,781 posts)
7. Interesting to see the lack of public reaction from Israel
Sun May 17, 2015, 09:57 PM
May 2015
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/.premium-1.556742

Saudi Arabia helped finance the Pakistani nuclear weapons program and is confident Islamabad will give it atomic bombs – which could trigger a Middle Eastern nuclear arms race, the BBC reported on Wednesday. According to a NATO source, Pakistan actually has made bombs for Saudi Arabia and they are ready to go, the report said.

Experts say the kingdom has long aspired to achieve nuclear capacity of its own, in order to counter Iran's atomic ambitions. Getting the bomb merely by tapping Pakistan for it could bring the unnerved kingdom, which is openly anxious about Washington's warming ties with Iran, into the nuclear age even before its Muslim neighbor, they now suggest.

"They [Saudis] already paid for the bomb, they will go to Pakistan and bring what they need to bring," former Israeli Military Intelligence chief Amos Yadlin said, according to the BBC.

Saudi Arabia hasn't hidden its ambition, openly stating to the U.S. as early as 2009 that it would also seek capacity if "Iran crossed the threshold," the BBC reported, adding that Saudi Arabia has had the missile technology to deliver warheads since the late 1980s. In May 2012, former senior U.S. diplomat Dennis Ross confirmed for the first time that Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah explicitly warned that if Iran obtains nuclear weapons, Saudi Arabia would seek to do so as well.

 

Lurks Often

(5,455 posts)
12. It means Israel has more faith in Saudi Arabia to act rationally then they do Iran
Sun May 17, 2015, 11:08 PM
May 2015

I've always viewed the Saudi ruling family as pragmatic and realistic and they recognize that Israel is unlikely to be a threat to them unless they either seriously threaten or attack Israel.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
18. No, it is an understanding that these are NOT aimed at Israeli.
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:37 AM
May 2015

The House of Saud is undergoing a generational change. Up till today, every king of Saudi Arabia has been King Saud I (died 1952) or one of his sons. The Grandsons are now in their 40s and 50s (and some are in their 60s and 70s) and want power. Up till today, they have controlled by the sons of King Saud I, but that hold is rapidly disappearing. I have read reports that the present King of Saudi Arabia is Senile, and picked to be a Token head of State, like Fahd was in the last years of his reign (When then Crown Price Abdullah ran Saudi Arabia Abdullah later became King). King Salman, the present king, has been called Senile, and his nephew, the Crown Prince is actually calling the shots.

Thus we have a generational change occurring. The last time we saw this was in the 1980s, when the USSR has its surviving elite who had personally dealt with Stalin dying out. Gorbachev was the First Soviet Leader who never meet Stalin, he was born in 1931, while Stalin was alive, but was only 21 when Stalin died (and that is also true of Boris Yeltsin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Gorbachev

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Yeltsin

Putin also was born when Stalin was alive, but he was just one year of age at Stalin's Death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

Generational change is always dangerous. One reason for WWI was the German generation that had come to power under Bismark was handing over power to the next generation (General Hindenburg was of that older generation, his Chief of Staff Ludendorff has been one of the "New Generation" of Post German Unification Generals and other leaders that were replacing the Generation that had united Germany:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Ludendorff

In the Case of the Soviet Union, Gorbachev took power in 1985, but that was just a starting point for the fight over who would rule started in Ernest (Some aspects of that fight can be seen in the Soviet Intervention in Afghanistan, a place where someone could hope to gain a quit victory for "Communism" and thus advance one's place in the Soviet hierarchy, through in the case of Afghanistan in blew up in their faces).

The infighting within the Soviet Union ended up to the Coup, its failure and the break up of the Soviet Union. The Infighting during the reign of Ling Wilhelm II was as bad, under his rule Germany engaged in several small wars over Colonial Territories in Africa and the Pacific (Including some indirect fighting with the French in Morocco).

If we go further back, the collapse of Mongol Rule in China can be traced to infighting after the death of Kublai Klan's children (i.e. his grandchildren, Kublai Khan was the grandchild of Genghis Khan, thus Kublai saw the breakup of Genghis's empire, split apart by the grandchildren of Genghis Khan).

You see this in other countries and times, when a generation achieve something big, it is their grandchildren who breaks it up (Their children keep in together for they are use to working together, the grandchildren tend NOT to see their Cousins as people they can work with and share power with).

Side note: Rome had very few "Great Conquerors". the closest would be Julius Caesar, and he was succeeded by his nephew (and adopted son), Octavian. Octavian in turn was succeeded by his wife's son Tiberius, who in turn was succeeded by his Nephew Caligula, who in turn was succeeded by his UNCLE, who in turn was succeeded by his wife's son, Nero. Nero lost his throne and Rome deteriorated into chaos, but the Empire was restored by Vespasian whose line followed a similar generational pattern (Through shorter, it was only two Generation instead of three). The longest dynasty was the Adoptive Emperors, and it did not last 100 years (Constantine's dynasty lasted 70 years from the date Constantine's father was named a "Caesar" under the Tetrarchy in 293 AD and the death of Julian the Apostate in 363 AD)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrarchy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_emperors

I bring this up for it is normal in Dictatorships/Kingships etc. They give the appearance of stability but the classic example sums it up best. The Average Reign of a Roman Emperor was less then 2 years, An American President 6. The reason? The rights over succession lead to a large number of Emperors and these Emperors short rule more then off set the long rule of Augustus (70 years) or Constantine (31 years).

This instability is typical of generational shifts. People want to look powerful so they launch military expeditions of questionable worth (The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan) and buy weapons of questionable worth (The massive expansion of Soviet Forces in the 1970s and 1980s especially its Navy). Thus the House of Saud supporting ISIS (and it is) is typical of such generational fights, as is this purchase of Nuclear weapons.

Israel can not bring itself to accept these are all signed of instability in Saudi Arabia, they want to see the more out spoken opposition in Iran as a sign of stability, when the tolerance of opposition is a sign of strength not weakness (The Shah did not tolerate opposition in the 1970s and it reached a critical point where he could no longer contain the opposition and he was overthrown).

Sorry, Israel is presently being run by people who do NOT want to accept the fact Egypt and Saudi Arabia are both unstable. Thus Israel will agree to each having all types of weapons, assuming such weapons will not be used against them. They oppose Iran, for even the opposition in Iran supports the Palestinians, and thus even if the present Government if Iran is overthrown, who ever takes over (unless imposed from the outside) will continue to support the Palestinians. If the US can IMPOSE a government on Iran, that is what Israel hopes for, but the US could NOT even do that in Iraq, how can the US expect to do so in Iran, a much larger country? Thus Iran will remain an enemy of Israel no matter who rules Iran. Iraq is slowly returning to that position. ISIS claims it is, but Israel has bombed its opponents in Syria not ISIS (Actions speak louder then words).

Thus Israel's position of basically agreeing that Saudi Arabia could have the Bomb, but Iran must be punished for even having the ability to make one in the distant future.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
40. Discourage anyone from having Nuclear weapons, even if that means boycotting them.
Mon May 18, 2015, 04:12 PM
May 2015

Last edited Mon May 18, 2015, 06:41 PM - Edit history (2)

Russia has nuclear weapons, but had them prior to the adoption of the non-proliferation treaty. The same with China, Britain and France. That most republican of generals, General Powell, has said nuclear weapons are generally useless, and he could defend the US without them.

Thus boycotting any other country that has a Atomic Bomb should become the law. Any country that violates, states its plans to get out of the Nuclear non-proliferation Treaty or refuses to adopt that treaty (yes that would includes Israel) should be banned from all aid and trade with the US.

The President should also adopt a policy of no more then 500 nuclear weapons. This is what Britain, France and China have and it is a number Russia could accept if the US gives up its Star Wars defense system.

Now, this requires our ruling elite to decide Saudi Arabia having the bomb is more a danger to peace then Russian speakers living in the countries around Russia. Right now I do NOT think those Russian Speakers are the greater "threat" (Russian speakers living in the countries that border Russia are viewed as the Greater Threat by many of our ruling elite, for such Russian Speakers see Russia in a good light, while the ruling elite of those countries do not).

Yes, end Star Wars, drop nuclear missiles to less then 500 and boycott any country that violates or does not adopt the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, even if that means oil goes to $20 a gallon.

You must also accept that it is US policy to prevent the creation of a Eurasian Trading block. China and Russia are presently working on such a block, connecting the Industrial might of Western Europe, with the grain fields of Russia, Poland and the Ukraine, the oil and natural gas fields of Siberia and the growing industrial might of China. There is some indication that Germany is working with both China and Russia on that block. Such a block would NOT need the US Navy to protect its trade routes, the Trans-Siberian Railroad does NOT need protection from a Navy.

Right now, Russia has the means to move cargoes from Chinese Trains (which operate on 4 foot 8 inch Gauge) to Russian Five foot Gauge, then back to 4 Foot 8 inches as the train enters Poland for 4 Foot 8 inch is the Gauge in Western Europe. There is a proposal to convert one set of Tracks in Russia to 4 Foot 8 inches to speed up the travel time. Right now the trip, for freight, takes 2 weeks, which is half the time it takes to go by sea. Russia has the electrical power to provide power to those trains. Gauge is the biggest hurtle at the present time, but even that can be speed up.

I mention this for the US does NOT want that EU-Russian-Chinese Block to develop, for its leaves the US out of the loop. The US has no way to use that Rail line nor any way to block it without resorting to bombing. Russia and China are committed to that rail line, the details on what it should be (i.e. is it worth Russia converting to 4 foot 8 inch gauge OR is it worth running a double gauge between Germany and China, i.e. tracks that use both five foot and 4 Foot 8 inch gauge tracks. The four inches difference between the two gauges is considered to small to run three rail systems, which can be done for different rail gauges of greater difference for example, Here is a 1000mm (Called "Meter Gauge&quot and 1435mm (4 foot 8 inch i.e. Standard Gauge) rails on the same rail line (This uses a common rail on one side and each gauge has its own other rail):



http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=370319&page=15

Here is the Swedish solution to the dual gauge problem, they run both sets off set from each other:





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_gauge

Thus the running of dual gauge of 5 feet and 4 feet 8 inch gauge can be done if you opt for a four rail system, but such systems can be complex for you are basically running two systems in the same space. It is doable, but makes a complex rail system, the better solution may be just a whole new rail line (which is what China has proposed).

 

Telcontar

(660 posts)
44. 500 nuclear weapons is too few
Mon May 18, 2015, 09:02 PM
May 2015

The greatest risk is when a first strike option becomes viable. Less than about 3000 warheads means meaningful (counter-value) retaliation is not guaranteed.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
45. You can destroy any country ability to conduct war with 50 bombs
Tue May 19, 2015, 12:20 AM
May 2015

That means hitting their ports, railroad, road intersections, power plants, sewerage plants etc. To "guarantee" a "Hit" on a secure, protected, and buried missile, you need at least three aimed at it and any potential force that could take out one of those bombs (one estimate that to guarantee a hit a "vital" target in the Soviet Union you will have to use 20 bombs, at least three on the target but 17 more on potential AA batteries, Fighter bases etc to make sure the bombs all arrived at the target). To get closer and closer to 100% guarantee to destroy the target, you needed to keep doubling the amounts of bombs.

This has been known since the 1960s and was the reason for the massive increase in bombs in the 1950s. The Russians reacted to US bomb making and thus ended up with as many as the US did. Both sides only stopped making bombs when they would kill 98% of the population of each side AND to get to 99% they would have to double the number of bombs (i.e. from 6000 warheads to 12,000 warheads to get that additional 1 percentage point).

When the US Navy was ordered to join with the Air Force in the 1950s they were shocked by the demand of the Air Force for 2000 bombs (By the 1960s it was up to 6000 bombs). When the RAF was invited into the US Nuclear Command Center in the late 1950s, they were shocked at the demand for the number of bombs the US Air Force was insisting on. It was so bad that one RAF officer wrote a serious book about it, that Stanley Kublick converted to a black comedy now knows as "Dr Stangelove".

A First Strike has NEVER been viable. It has been the worse case scenario used by the Pentagon to justify the existence of its massive nuclear arsenal. The Air Force embraced it in the late 1940s when it became clear the Strategic Bombing Campaigns of WWII had been the greatest help to Germany and Japan (Both counties had a problem getting their people to move from the inner city communities they had grown up in, to the suburbs were the new factories were. the allied bombing cause people to move thus improving German and Japanese Productively, thus as Allied bombing increases so did German war Production from 1943 to 1945, war production only dropped as Allied troops entered Germany).

Now, the bombing of transportation system and in support of the Troops had been very successful at reducing German and Japanese production but the bombings of cities had been beneficial to German and Japanese production for it moved the workers closer to their jobs.

The Air Force response to this was that they had not dropped enough bombs and with atomic bombs Strategic bombing would now work. The Air Force saw their biggest enemy as the US Navy (not the Soviet Union) and thus you had the big bomber vs super carrier debates of the 1940s (Which was only partially solved in the Korean War, for Strategic bombing again failed to do what its backing said it could do AND worse from the Air Force point of View, the Carrier was shown to be the best way to get air cover over US troops in Korea in the early days of the war).

Now, the US Navy was not innocent in this fight, they wanted the last two Iowa Battleships completed (they had been laid down during WWII, but construction stopped in 1944 do to a shortage of Steel, those hauls survived till the 1958-1959 recession when Congress looking for things to cut, ordered those hauls scrapped) in addition to the super carriers the Navy wanted.

Finally in the 1960s McNamara called together a panel of experts and based on their report indicated that the US could destroy the offensive capacity of the Soviet Union with just 500 bombs. The Air Force did not like hearing that and fought against it for it meant a cut in money for the US Air Force. Vietnam brought with it the demand for more money to be spent on ground forces which caused both the Air Force and Navy to join forces to keep the Army and Marines down (This happened again after 2002, when again you had a war where the Air Force and Navy had at best a side role).

Anyway, back to Nuclear forces. As the Soviet Union nuclear capacity increased in the late 1950s and early 1960s, it became clear that the US and the Soviet Union both had the capacity to destroy each other, i.e MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction. Kennedy and later Johnson used this to stop the expansion of nuclear weapons, but the Air Force saw that as at attack on the Air Force (Kennedy and Johnson had been in the Navy during WWII, so the Air Force suspected both of being pro-Navy and thus Anti-Air Force).

Now, with the end of the Vietnam War, the Air Force found itself fighting for reduced funding and increase cost of an "all volunteer" military (i.e. pay had to increase, the Air Force could no longer rely on getting recruits trying to avoid being drafted into the Infantry). To get increased fund the Air Force played up the capacity of the Soviet Missile force.

If you listened to the US Air Force, the Soviet Union had that capacity to launch a first strike by the 1980s because Reagan refused to adopt the Mobile MX missile launching system the Pentagon was pushing at that time period. When Reagan killed the MX (Limited its deployment to existing Titan II missiles sites) the Air Force claimed its Missiles were subject to a first strike capacity and Congress had to do something about it, but when the Air Force saw the opposition was from the GOP not the Democrats (who wanted to cut defense even more) the Air Force stopped yelling about first strike (One reason for this decision was the Democrats would respond if the US land based missile system would be knocked out, the US would still have its submarine launch missiles for a second strike. thus the Air Force was seeing its Arch Enemy the US Navy come out of top if they pushed the first strike fears so you did not hear about them after the 1980s, remember to the Air Force their biggest enemy is the US Navy).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper#Counterforce_Considerations

A first strike only makes sense if your plan is to destroy the other side but NEVER occupy their territory. i.e make Russia and Siberia a nuclear wasteland. The Soviet missile build up seems to be a response to the US build up, not something that had a life of its own (through by the 1980s the Soviet Union was becoming very bureaucratic and attacking anyone in its ruling elite who were NOT on the same page as everyone else. This is typical of a country about to go through a generations change. In most societies you have a steady flow of people, people retire, other people are hired. It becomes a steady stream with most people promoting people like themselves to replace themselves. Thus the late Soviet commitment to missile parity with the US became an object of their dogma even if it made no military sense).

Every so often you have a generation that comes to power all at once. One such generation was the Generation that fought the US Revolution (President Andrew Jackson was the last of that generation), another is the US Civil War (President McKinley was the last of that generation and his successor was the First President since Lincoln who had not served in the Military OR Government during the Civil War).

Sidenote: President Cleveland had NOT served in the Civil War, but was serving as a District Attorney during the Civil War, thus serving in the Government. President Andrew Johnston was also serving in the Governor, first as a Senator and later Vice President.

We see this again with WWII, Every President from 1933 till 1993 had been in the Military or Government during WWII. FDR and Truman had been in the Government during WWII, Eisenhower had been Commander In Chief in Europe (Truman and Eisenhower had been in service during WWI and FDR had been Secretary of the Navy during WWI). Kennedy has served in WWII, Lyndon Johnson had been in Congress AND had served in the US Navy Reserve in WWII, as had Nixon and Ford. Carter had been in the Naval Academy during WWII, Reagan had been in a Propaganda movie outfit for the Army. The First President George Bush had also served in the US Navy. Clinton was the first President since Herbert Hoover who, as President, had never served during WWII. Hoover had participated in the hunger relief during and after WWII, as he had done after WWI but that was AFTER he was President).

Clinton was the first President since FDR who had NOT been in the Military during WWII. He was of a new generation of Americans. In 1994 the US had its first GOP Controlled Congress since 1948, in many ways this reflect the death of many of the generation who fought WWII i.e those WWII vets, as a whole, did not trust the GOP to the extent the generation that came to power in the 1990s did.

This group also faced a problem the GOP had no real plans to address, the collapse of the Soviet Union. How do you increase spending on defense when your arch enemy no longer exists? It became an open question would the ex Soviet Missiles actual work if launched and would the bombs on those missiles actual work if they arrived at their target? The Russians had been spending up to 40% of the GNP on Defense and that was unsustainable and the chief reason the Soviet Union collapsed. Russia's spending is just 4.5 % of its GNP today and thus is spending no where near the money to maintain its missiles, to improve those missiles and war heads that the Soviet Union had been spending as late as the 1980s.

Thus your comment about a First Strike, right now only one country has the ability to do a first strike on another country's nuclear missiles and that is the USA. Russia has improved their missiles since the 1990s but no where near what the US has. If the Russians would launch 500 missiles to take out the US Missiles (and the US does NOT do a counter-launch with its Sub based missiles) the Russians would find themselves without anyone to sell their oil and other assets to. Their economy will collapse. Thus the Russians will NOT launch such an attack, such an attack calls for retaliation and even if the US decides on no nuclear retaliation, the economic retaliation would be so harmful on the Russian Economy that Russia would collapse (This is the position of General Powell, not only as to Russia but the US, just get rid of those useless Atomic Bombs).

Now, the above ASSUMES that the Russians have more then 500 working missiles at the present time. As I pointed out above that is an open question. China has a larger economy and only maintains a 500 bomb arsenal, but it is universally agreed that those weapons will work, but 500 is NOT enough to give the Chinese a First Strike ability.

My point is I do not thing ANYONE but the US has the ability to do a first strike. Everyone else has decided to spend they money on something they consider of greater importance (i.e. their economy, their conventional forces, bribes etc). To bring back the First Strike Fear is to relive the 1980s and the Air Force Fight for the MX missile (a missile the Air Force Retired in 2005 while keeping the older Minuteman III missiles).

The First Strike is NOT what you need to fear today. If a First Strike was viable the US would launch one on Russia today, but the US has not for the simple reason it is NOT viable. Russia has capacity to get nukes to the US, not as many as the Soviet Union could do in the 1980s but enough to destroy US Offensive Capacity. With that capacity destroyed, all of the advantages of doing a first strike dies with it.

You could probably destroy US offensive capacity with 50 missiles. You hit the top 50 Ports and Air Ports that is enough to destroy the US Capacity to attack. Given that we have become dependent on it could be done with 20 bombs.

Side note: LA and Long beach can be destroyed by one bomb, San Francisco and Seattle two more, Boston, New York, Philadelphia (which would block ships getting to Trenton) would be four more. Baltimore and Norfolk (And the Target is NOT the Naval Base but the Coal export center) would be two more. Charleston would be number nine. Tenth would be Louisiana (A separate port from New Orleans) and hitting Galveston would block Houston. Thus with 11 bombs you can destroy US ability to support any offensive operations in the world via shipping, that would leave Air support. As to the rest of the US Ports, those are NOT big enough to handle what the US has to import (oil) and export (grain and weapons) to support an offensive military operation.

As to Airports, if you destroy the largest US Air Ports by area you restrict exports even more. Here are the top 10 US airports by area, these could be used to support troops overseas:

Denver, CO – 33,531 acres
Dallas-Forth Worth (DFW), TX – 18,076 acres
Fort Myers (Southwest FL), FL – 13,555 acres
Orlando, FL – 13,302 acres
Washington (Dulles), DC/MD/VA – 13,000 acres
Kansas City, MO/KS – 10,200 acres
Houston (Bush), TX – 10,000 acres
Pittsburgh, PA/WV – 10,000 acres
Oklahoma City (Will Rogers), OK – 8,081 acres
Tucson, AZ – 7,938 acres

https://panethos.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/americas-largest-commercial-airports-by-acreage/

The busiest airports are NOT always the largest. Dallas is the Fourth Busiest, Denver is the fifth busiest Air port, but in size Dallas is #4 while Denver is #2. The Second busiest Airport, LA, is #46 is size. The busiest is Atlanta but it is only #30 in size. The Third Busiest Air Port, O'Hara is 14th in size. The Fifth Largest in flights is JFK but it is only the 20th in size. The Sixth busiest is San Francisco but it is 19th in size. The 8th Busiest is Charlotte NC, but it is only the 25th largest Air Port in size. The 9th Busiest, Las Vegas is the 66th largest in area. Miami the 10th business is the 52nd largest.

http://www.airport-technology.com/features/feature-busiest-airports-in-the-us-passengers/

Thus the key is the largest IN SIZE not the largest in the number of passengers. Of the top 20 Airports the three closest to Europe are JFK (#20 in size), Dulles (# 5 in Size) and Pittsburgh (# 8 in size). Only JFK is in the top 10 of these three in terms of passengers.

This is not as critical on the West Coast, we have several Air Force Bases that exceed these limits on the west coast (and thus would be targets more then the smaller Airports).


Just pointing out 20 bombs is all you need to stop US Exports and Imports enough so that the US could NOT support any offensive operations. You would have ports and Airports left, but combined together they could NOT do what the targets the 20 bombs destroyed could support.

The scary part it appears this ability to destroy each other supply lines is what prevented WW-III from breaking out at the end of WWII. While the U-boat threat would not have reappeared with the onset of any US-USSR war in 1945-1949 period, the Soviet Union had the fuel and the technology to defend their supply bases (and along with massive support from French, Italian and even German Communists) and attack US supply lines. Thus if the USSR had attack Western Germany and France, the superior US Navy and Air Force would have destroyed the Soviet Supply lines for such an attack. At the same time, those advantages rapidly declined as US forces crossed the Elbe into Eastern Germany and any such invading US Force would have run out of supplies while before they crossed into Poland. Thus the Iron Curtain reflected military realities more then anything else.

Thus after WWII, both sides accepted the "Iron Curtain" for beyond that point each Army ran into supply problems and until that problem was resolved the chances of gaining anything by going to war was minimal. The US adoption of Containers in the 1960s permitted not only an increase in trade but the ability to provide even more supplies to Europe in times of war. The Soviet response to this was a massive expansion of its Navy so for the first times since 1945 the US Navy had consider an attack on supply lines across the Atlantic. This massive expansion of the Soviet navy and air force in response to the increase ability Containers did to getting supplies to Europe, more then the Reagan Expansion of the US Military lead to the Soviet Union spending to much money on defense and collapsing because of that problem in the late 1980s.

By the late 1980s the Soviet Union decided it was time to retreat and agreed to do so before it collapsed (despite the Collapse, Russian Forces stayed in Germany till it was time for them to withdraw as per the treaty signed by the Soviet Union, this was more do to the need to build new barracks for the troops in Russia then any real desire to stay in Eastern Germany).

Thus a first strike has never been a real military fear. The real fear has been the use of Atomic bombs to destroy the ability to support the armies in the field. i.e. destroy supply lines. If you can destroy the enemies supply lines, you have him defeated without engaging his army. 20 bombs could knock out the US. The Soviet Union is IN EUROPE so its ports are less important, but it does have rail-heads and highways that can be destroyed (but these are both easier to repair then ports). You may have to use more Atomic bombs on Britain, Germany or France, for all three are nearer Russia and thus can use smaller ships and thus smaller ports (but at the same time you may be able to destroy those ports by conventional bombs).

As far as Russia is concern, the US would be better off destroying the Russian transportation system with conventional bombs then retaliating with atomic bombs. The destruction of the Russian transportation system would cause any Russian Military force to be without fuel, food and ammo within a very short time period. Thus what would Russia gain by a First Strike? Nothing for the US has superior Air Power and can use it to destroy any Russian army, unless the First Strike was against US ports and airports and in such a case 50 bombs is all Russia needs.

In many regards the US faces the same problem, if the US did a First Strike on Russia, what would the US Gain? Russia only has to fire 50 missiles at the top 50 transportation hubs of the US and Canada and it would have destroyed the ability of the US to go on the Offensive.

Just pointing out a "First Strike" would quickly be meaningless if the other side concentrate on the side that launches a first strike supply hubs. Destroying Supply hubs is how you win wars today not destroying weapons.

I know the above needs to be rewritten, it has been a couple of decades since "First Strike" became a slogan for more bombs, and since the dismiss of First Strike under Reagan the arguments against it have lied dead along with "First Strike" itself. The arguments are the above, that it was never really an option except in some war room plan that had no basis in reality. Would a US President NOT launch an Atomic Attack after one has been launched on the US? The answer to that is simple, NO, for he would lose the next election for NOT revenging the losses we suffered in that First Strike. Thus the scenario has no basis in political reality, but it could be used to justify increase spending on Missiles which was the real goal of the people pushing that doctrine. As I said, the above needs re written but I need to go to bed so I am leaving it as is.
 

Telcontar

(660 posts)
47. Your focus is on a counter-force strike
Tue May 19, 2015, 12:20 PM
May 2015

Yes, the United States can be prevented from reinforcing Europe with only 11 nuclear targets: Charleston Harbor, Norfolk, Boston Harbor, New Orleans harbor, and New York Harbor; Scott AFB, McCord AFB, Dover AFB, Hunter Army Air Field, Travis AFB, Maxwell AFB. That is the nightmare scenario. Done at night and you can keep the death toll down to the low tens of thousands. So what happens next? Does the US push back and leave Europe on its own, or expose it's major population centers exposed to a counter-value strike? Does the US conduct a series of carefully targeted retaliation strikes to achieve some equivalence? The problem with that is Europe is separated from the US by a big ocean, the average Russian soldiers walked to Germany in the last great conflict. To achieve the same level of strategic damage to Russia would require a greater degree of targets (and larger number of civilian casualties). Thus a creeping across the threshold from counter-force second strike to counter-value.

The purpose behind having a few thousand warheads is to ensure that a counter-value second strike is viable. A nuclear war is horrible to contemplate. The risk/reward curve actually increases the likelihood of nuclear adventurism with only a few warheads.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
49. This has been war gamed over the last 40 years and the results all always the same
Tue May 19, 2015, 02:00 PM
May 2015

The political leadership decides they can NOT afford NOT to attack, even if it means massive losses of American Lives. If the Politicians decides NOT to launch an attack, member of the opposition party will call him weak and demand his impeachment (or even Coup). That is the Political Reality of that scenario and why First Strike talk generally died out under Reagan.

This political rule, while discussed as early as the 1950s, became US official Policy under Nixon. Nixon wanted the Soviet Leadership to think he was nuts and if they did anything to bad he would launch a massive Nuclear Strike, even if that meant massive US losses.

That basic policy has NOT changed, it is still the unofficial US Nuclear policy. Once you accept that is the US Nuclear Policy (and it is), then a First Strike has no validity, no matter the results the US will launch a massive nuclear strike, be the strike be one bomb or 500 bombs (and in certain cases, left unclear to instill fear in the Soviet Leadership, conventional military action could lead to a massive nuclear strike and to a good degree that remains US Nuclear policy)

That is the reason First Strike has been a non issue since Reagan. That is the reality, no matter who is in charge in Washington, it is the Politicians who opt for Nuclear weapons way before the Military brass does. Can a sitting President, from a political point of view, NOT attack? Remember the old saying "It is easier for a Hawk that was wrong to be forgiven, then for a Dove who was right to be forgiven". That sums up most politicians view on the use of Nuclear Weapons and why they opt for them before the Military brass does in the war games over the last 40-50 years.

Thus your scenario is one of those scenario that keeps coming back but like the old joke about betting on a person walking backwards from NYC to LA, it could happen but the smart money is NOT on it. Thus General Powell comments that he can NOT see a situation where the US would use a Nuclear Weapon. The Russians and Chinese are NOT going to destroy the US for they need the US. The rest of the Nuclear powers have very limited ability to hit the US with a bomb, and if they did the US could strike back with massive conventional forces (and to a great degree this applies to China for most of its recent growth has been along its coast, thus an easy target for US Planes flying from US Bases in the Pacific. Russia is a harder target to reach but being almost land locked easier to contain with just a few conventional bombs in the right locations). Thus the US does NOT need nuclear weapons.

As to the limit of 500 bombs, as far as the US, Russia, China, Britain and France are concern, they either are at 500 bombs of less right now OR (US and Russia) can achieve that low number quickly. Thus 500 bombs is a limit that is achievable AND variable (Each could cheat but given modern technology the most Atomic Bombs AND the delivery systems to carry them to target any of them could hide from detection would be a couple at best, the delivery system being the harder to hide of the two). We could then work down to 50 each and again the major control will be on the delivery system of such weapons not the weapons themselves (if you have no way to deliver the bombs, why have the bomb?).

kiranon

(1,727 posts)
9. Makes sense from Saudi Ariabia's point of view. Surprised
Sun May 17, 2015, 10:46 PM
May 2015

not done sooner. Pakistan and N. Korea will sell to anyone (term "anyone" used instead of "any country" intentionally). Pandora's box is open and open for business. IMHO. If ISIS gets hold of a nuclear weapon, it will use it.

 

lancer78

(1,495 posts)
11. I don't think so
Sun May 17, 2015, 11:05 PM
May 2015

My reasoning is that even though ISIS is more then capable of possessing/buying/developing chemical WMD they have yet to use any chemical weapons because of the dire consequences when said chemical weapons are used. From ISIS's point of view, it is much better to rule/conquer through more traditional means then use WMD. When you use a WMD like a nuke or massive use of chemical weapons, then the chips are down and the world will put a huge level of hurt on you.

Response to kiranon (Reply #9)

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
33. That was the approach with Former Soviet "loose nukes." The Paki nukes already belong to KSA
Mon May 18, 2015, 07:22 AM
May 2015

The Saudis paid for most of the Pakistani program, and Bush Sr. authorized that beginning when he was CIA Director as part of the "Safari Club" agreement. See my post at #32, above.

Jesus Malverde

(10,274 posts)
10. Saudi Arabia and Israel are allies
Sun May 17, 2015, 11:04 PM
May 2015

On the down low. Like Jordan and Egypt all have come to rely on Israel.

 

kelliekat44

(7,759 posts)
13. On the down low is correct. This has been happening for years. At least Iran has known it for year
Sun May 17, 2015, 11:39 PM
May 2015

That's why the Saudis are running scared right now. Laying down with dogs gives you fleas.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
17. Both India and Pakistan dared to break it.
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:25 AM
May 2015

It didn't seem to hurt them at all.
Israel didn't even bother to sign it. Didn't hurt them at all.
It's only Iran that has a problem, and Iran ... is probably the most inspected country on the planet, and their adherence hasn't made a difference at all.

It's all just propaganda.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
20. India and Pakistan never signed the NPT.
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:41 AM
May 2015

India is halfway towards accepting the NPT, as long as they can keep their nukes. Pakistan is more ambiguous, and is a proliferation risk.

Besides, if Saudi Arabia broke the NPT, then Iran would have to break it as well.

Kablooie

(18,603 posts)
19. I didn't know there were "off-the-shelf" nuclear weapons.
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:38 AM
May 2015

Just wait till ISIS saves up enough to buy a few.
Then the party will really begin.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
25. This is the nightmare scenario
Mon May 18, 2015, 02:29 AM
May 2015

A doddering kleptocracy, Wahhabi zealots, and a population who doesn't like their rulers. Yeah, this is going to end well.

Response to Bosonic (Original post)

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
41. Iran has little to fear from Pakistani Nukes
Mon May 18, 2015, 05:44 PM
May 2015

Between Iran and Pakistan you have an off shoot of the Himalaya Mountains AND the Baluchistan desert. Thus Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great and Timberlane went from Persia/Iran to Pakistan via Afghanistan. The best passes over those Mountains are between Pakistan and Afghanistan NOT between Iran and Pakistan.

Side note: In Alexander's retreat from what is now Pakistan, he crossed the Baluchistan desert, this was his greatest loss of life among his men. He lost more men in that 60 day march then he did in all of his battles. That is how bad the desert was and is:

http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat56/sub366/item2036.html#chapter-16

The Baluchistan desert produces an area with a very low population. Most people live along the Iraqi, Turkish, Turkmenistan and Caspian sea borders:



http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/maps15/

Ethnic Group map of Iran:

?v=0

Thus Iran has nothing to fear from Pakistan UNLESS Pakistan takes Afghanistan (and the same with Pakistan, Iran has to take Afghanistan first). You can NOT maintain an army in that Desert for any long period of time, you just use up all the water then you have to go home. Thus very little conflict on that border and has always been a secure border between Iran and Pakistan.

Here is a map of Tamerlane's conquests, notice he stays out of what is now Southwestern Iran, instead takes Kabul then heads for Delhi.



http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Georgia/geor_histr%2022.htm

Response to happyslug (Reply #41)

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
43. But Pakistan is controlled by Urdu speaking elites NOT Islamic radicals
Mon May 18, 2015, 07:04 PM
May 2015

The Pakistan Army was founded by units that had made up the Moslem units in the British Indian Army. Many of these units were originally from in what is today India. Their leaders speak Urdu, which is just a variation of Hindi spoken by Moslems in India:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu



On the other hand Urdu is the fifth most spoken language in Pakistan:

https://southasiablog.wordpress.com/2014/06/12/pakistan-language-map/

The majority of the People of Pakistan speak Punjabi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punjabi_language#Etymology

I bring this up for Pakistan sees India as its enemy not Iran and as long as that is the case Pakistan will be on good terms with Iran, for Pakistan can retreat to Afghanistan and then to Iran if India invades (a huge fear of Pakistan, mostly do to the fact many of the Urdu speakers want to invade India and take it back over as in the days of the Mughal empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mughal_Empire

on point

(2,506 posts)
35. So where are sanctions against Saudia Arabia a known terrorist supporter
Mon May 18, 2015, 11:19 AM
May 2015

It is after all their Wahhabi fundamentalist schools and their funding that is supporting terrorism, including 9/11 attacks


Hmm they must have allies in the U.S.

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
38. So we're allowing a nation only slightly less fanatic than ISIS and the Taliban to go nuclear?
Mon May 18, 2015, 12:22 PM
May 2015

This will end well.

 

Beauregard

(376 posts)
46. Another nation in the nuclear club.
Tue May 19, 2015, 01:38 AM
May 2015

Thus increasing the chances of nuclear war by accident, not to mention on purpose.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
48. people should be more worried about this than Iran getting a nuke
Tue May 19, 2015, 12:49 PM
May 2015

Saudi has been far prolific in supporting terrorist groups, and their regime seems to be inherently unstable.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
50. If true, it may mean the stationing of Russian nuclear missiles in Iran.
Tue May 19, 2015, 03:17 PM
May 2015

Russian nuclear missiles in Iran would be a deterrent to any attack by Saudi Arabia or Israel. I have feeling Iran would go to Moscow to ask for them and probably get them. Putin will do it. The Iranians are under the Sino-Russian sphere of influence now and they will be protected.

If this is true, it is a big mistake by the Saudis.

Note: The Russians would not bring in just atomic weapons, they would also bring thermonuclear. Just like Cuba in October 1962.

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