White House says Edward Snowden should ‘come home’ to face trial

[DonViejo]

Source: AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
29 JUL 2015 AT 08:56 ET

Th e White House rejected a call Tuesday to pardon Edward Snowden, saying the former intelligence contractor should “be judged by a jury of his peers” for leaking US government secrets.

The US administration re-iterated its tough stance against the exiled fugitive, whom supporters regard as a whistleblower, in response to a petition on the White House website signed by more than 167,000 people. Lisa Monaco, an advisor on homeland security and counterterrorism, said Snowden’s “dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it.”

She said that Snowden, who has been granted asylum in Russia after he leaked documents on vast US surveillance programs to journalists, is “running away from the consequences of his actions.”

“If he felt his actions were consistent with civil disobedience, then he should do what those who have taken issue with their own government do: challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest, and — importantly — accept the consequences of his actions,” she wrote.

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/white-house-says-edward-snowden-should-come-home-to-face-trial/

[ybbor]

1. Yes, that sounds like a great idea

Just ask Chelsea Manning

[brooklynite]

4. ...who pleaded guilty.

[Eric J in MN]

5. And was given 35 years in prison for the non-violent crime of informing the public. NT

NT

[MADem]

32. Manning did not "inform the public." She transferred, wholesale, information she did not review.

to Julian Assange.

She's right where she needs to be. And she knows it, too.

[Eric J in MN]

74. Manning wanted the public to better understand what was happening in Iraq

...and let the public sort out what was important with the help of the press.

Just like Daniel Ellsberg released all of The Pentagon Papers and not excerpts.

Manning didn't confess due to a desire to go to prison. Manning was turned in by Adrian Lamo.

[MADem]

77. She was miserable in her own skin,

hated her job, hated her life, assaulted her supervisor, and was a complete wreck. She didn't really give a shit about anything, and she just wanted to create a little chaos to express her dissatisfaction. She wanted to make people PAY. She did make friends with the wrong people, but had she been allowed to live an authentic life it's highly unlikely she would have done any of that stuff. She was acting out.

I don't blame her, though. The Army did a crap job of vetting her for her duties. She was unfit to do the job she was doing, she was unfit for duty given Army prohibitions regarding trans persons (to say nothing of a 'bully' environment that sometimes thrives in those venues), and because they were in "warm body" mode, they just didn't care about recruit quality. As a consequence, they paid a huge price. Frankly, it serves them right. The Services--and the government--can't keep going for the cheapest solution when it comes to the interaction between intelligence material and humans processing it. We've got to raise the bar.

She wasn't "just like Daniel Ellsberg." She pled guilty--it wasn't the same situation at all, even if an old man looking for a slice of limelight wants to pretend otherwise.

Now she's stuck, so she's got to ride that horse. I wish her luck, but she's right where she belongs, for now.

[Eric J in MN]

87. Manning was anti-war

===
"Manning was under the impression that his leaked information was going to really change how the world views the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and future wars actually," Navy Capt. David Moulton, a forensic psychiatrist testifying in Manning's defense, told the military court on July 14.

"It was his opinion that if through crowd sourcing that enough analysis was done on these documents, which he felt to be very important, that it would lead to greater good, that society as a whole would come to the conclusion that the wars weren't worth it, that really no wars are worth it."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/21/bradley-manning-leaks_n_3788126.html
====

[Warren Stupidity]

95. So you would be happy had Daniel Ellsberg gone to jail too, right?

Do you seriously believe we have no right to know what our allegedly democratic government is doing?

[MADem]

104. Where are you getting that from? Explain.

I don't see how you can, even in your most ardent desire to play gotcha, compare a series of reports that ELLSBERG WORKED ON--his own intellectual property--with stolen "en masse" state department cables and imagery.

I mean, really...bit of a bridge too far, that.

[cstanleytech]

70. No, Manning was convicted on violating the law regarding the handling of classified intelligence.

Which Manning had to agree abide by before even being granted clearance so its not like Manning or Snowden can claim they didnt know that they would breaking the law, that aside I think Manning deserved a far less sentence than 35 years but thats just my opinion.

[Eric J in MN]

75. Every whistle-blower who went to prison for it was convicted of breaking a law

...but they were all trying to inform us.

[cstanleytech]

97. I agree, some things like the details over the database of phone numbers that government had amassed

but details that the government was actually listening in on the German Chancellor? I think that might have been to much.
If its something the government was doing that was unconstitutional ok but its not unconstitutional for the government to collect intelligence on other countries and the leaders of said countries.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

22. Who violated the UCMJ

and was tried in a military court. As a civilian, Snowden has much better chances. Comparing military and civilian trials is apples and oranges.

[Eric J in MN]

37. In a military court or a civilian court...

...the judge can block any testimony he considers irrelevant or prejudicial or confusing.

The Espionage Act has no whistle-blower exception. Therefore, the judge would probably block Edward Snowden from saying that his purpose was blowing the whistle on NSA spying on Americans.

[Renew Deal]

28. Are people calling Manning a traitor?

[still_one]

47. A traitor has a very specific definition, and Manning does NOT fit into that category

[Renew Deal]

51. That's my point.

[still_one]

59. I agree

[closeupready]

34. Brilliant minds think alike.

Just posted the same thing before having seen your post.

[pocoloco]

2. "Greatest president ever!"

not

[uhnope]

71. not til I get my Snowden pony

[BillZBubb]

3. What a load of hogwash.

There is ZERO chance of Snowden getting a fair trial. The government will use secrecy laws to suppress any real defense.

How about the leaders of NSA facing the consequences for their actions of violating the constitution and lying to congress and the American people? Didn't think so.

[Eric J in MN]

7. Also, The Espionage Act has no whistle blower exception.

...If Edward Snowden tries to explain his motive to the jury, the judge will stop him, on the grounds that it's irrelevant.

[cstanleytech]

73. Couldnt his attorney try insert it with their closing statement?

[Eric J in MN]

90. The judge can bar an argument throughout the trial

...including during the closing statement.

[DetlefK]

13. A secret trial with secret evidence his lawyer cannot fact-check, plus psy-ops against the public.

Oh, there will be "leaks" about the trial... leaks from DHS- and CIA- and Pentagon-personell that the media will dutifully parrot as if they were truthful.

And then Edward Snowden gets 20 years in solitary confinement in a maximum-security-installation of the military where he can be forgotten and declared "old news".

They don't want to punish him.

They want to silence him and make the public forget.

[wildbilln864]

103. +1001 and they

want to make an example of him to deter any others that may want to blow the whistle on their criminality! IMHOOC.

[snot]

25. +1000!

[Blue_Tires]

6. Of course, he's not above the law...

But it's a moot point since Snowden only gets to leave Moscow when the Russians have no more use for him...

[MADem]

36. Oh, stop making sense!!!

Up is down and Putin is Santa Claus to some folks, and you disabuse them of their fantasies at risk!

[L0oniX]

64. Apparently Wall Street, bankers and George W Bush are.

[Beauregard]

82. But the NSA is.

Snowden has performed the public service of demonstrating that the US Government holds US law in contempt at the highest levels.

[Sunlei]

8. only problem is the USA/Fed system doesn't allow 'prisoners to "challenge it, speak out, engage in

'challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest'.

Even once convicted, prisoners time for human contact, letter writing, every contact they have to 'outside, is strictly regulated and very limited.

Even if they protest by not eating, they'll get the ensure drink shoved down their throat twice a day.

[Eric J in MN]

10. Right. Is Lisa Monaco saying Snowden should have gone around the country

...criticizing NSA policies from a prison cell?

[Eric J in MN]

9. The Boston Tea Party was civil disobedience and they wore disguises.

They didn't try to get prosecuted for The Boston Tea Party.

Edward Snowden doesn't want to be prosecuted just like the people behind The Boston Tea Party didn't.

[Sunlei]

15. They tried to pretend they were Indians, but someone noticed silly costumes on a ship in harbor.

The USA never changes, someone always tries to blame some minority for their actions

[Historic NY]

35. It wasn't exactly civil disobiedence...

it was the destruction of private property, the tea (of the British East India Trade Co.) which when sold would be taxed, the tax being paid by the colonials. This tea which came from China and was sold here would undercut the smuggling of tea by colonials in response to the Tea Act. While its nice to say it was about civil disobedience it was about paying a tax and undercutting the merchants in Boston, who thrived on selling tea.

[Eric J in MN]

42. Breaking the law to protest either the same law or a different law is civil disobedience. NT

NT

[Beauregard]

84. Part of civil disobedience is willingness to go to jail for breaking a law.

That's true by definition. Ed Snowden is a hero, but technically, he did not commit civil disobedience. He was considering it, but Julian Assange talked him out of it by phone when Snowden was in Hong Kong, about to turn himself over to the government there.

[Eric J in MN]

88. The definition of civil disobedience is breaking the law out of ethics.

Whether one wants to be arrested or not isn't part of the definition.

[Beauregard]

91. Breaking the law for a moral reason is part of it.

But you gotta take the legal consequences.

Look, I am not saying that Snowden or any other whistle blower should go to jail. I'm just talking about the definition of the term "civil disobedience." I had a friend who did three years in federal prison for draft resistance. That was civil disobedience. I had other friends who went to Canada. That was a morally good act, but not civil disobedience.

What makes a breach of law an act of civil disobedience? When is civil disobedience morally justified? How should the law respond to people who engage in civil disobedience? Discussions of civil disobedience have tended to focus on the first two of these questions. On the most widely accepted account of civil disobedience, famously defended by John Rawls (1971), civil disobedience is a public, non-violent and conscientious breach of law undertaken with the aim of bringing about a change in laws or government policies. On this account, people who engage in civil disobedience are willing to accept the legal consequences of their actions, as this shows their fidelity to the rule of law. Civil disobedience, given its place at the boundary of fidelity to law, is said to fall between legal protest, on the one hand, and conscientious refusal, revolutionary action, militant protest and organised forcible resistance, on the other hand.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-disobedience/

[Eric J in MN]

98. Neither the Boston Tea Party activists nor Edward Snowden

....meet John Rawls' definition of "civil disobedience."

However, I don't think that his definition is the only valid one.

[raouldukelives]

40. People were willing to fight and die for self-determination back then.

Now you can't even get people to stop supporting the ones keeping us in chains. Nonetheless being a force for democracy in any way.

[jalan48]

11. Well of course he should!

And we just hope he doesn't get depressed while waiting in jail and decide to commit suicide.

[Helen Borg]

12. Shut up WH!

[Smarmie Doofus]

14. On certain issues Obama's brain just freezes and LOCKS.

This is one; education is another.

[Eric J in MN]

16. What should Obama be doing about education? NT

NT

[Smarmie Doofus]

23. The precise opposite of everything I list in this post:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12804933

In short, let teachers teach and get profit and political demagoguery out of the public education equation.

[Sunlei]

17. why? would you want the President to break the law, smarmie doofus?

smarm·y


/ˈsmärmē/


adjective
informal

adjective: smarmy; comparative adjective: smarmier; superlative adjective: smarmiest




ingratiating and wheedling in a way that is perceived as insincere or excessive.
"a smarmy, unctuous reply"

doo·fus


/ˈdo͞ofəs/


noun
North Americaninformal

noun: doofus; plural noun: doofuses; noun: dufus; plural noun: dufuses




a stupid person.

[Smarmie Doofus]

24. My goodness. We're in bit of a pout this morning, are we not?

Smile. Ya got a lot of energy going for ya, at least.

[Sunlei]

26. lol, I'm never poutie Doofus

[KansDem]

18. Sure, just as soon as W "comes home" to face trial for his involvement in 9/11

Here he is describing how planted explosives brought down the towers.

Oh, wait! The airliners brought down the towers! How could I forget!

[Sunlei]

31. I wish on that day, both towers and all close buildings had the people get out & away immediately

and less emergency people were inside, and helicopters tried to remove people from roofs and windows.

Thank the gods, brave people made the one plane crash in the field and Canada allowed planes to land and welcomed people.

[George II]

41. And remember how he said "when I saw the first plane hit the tower....

....I thought "there's a bad pilot". What the idiot didn't realize is that there was no coverage of the FIRST plane hitting the tower, the only video of it came out a few days later.

[turbinetree]

54. And the others.............................

and the simple FACT that he and his criminal enterprise LIED and that he murdered 4685 military personnel and over 100,000 civilians based on his and other LIES

[Hello Dragon]

96. Will the torturers face trial too? Nt

[Taitertots]

19. A trial where he is a witness against NSA criminals?

Oh wait, we're in America. He'll be sent to a secret prison camp and never face a fair trial.

[HFRN]

20. odd how guards believe in jail more than inmates do

wonder why that is?

seems to be the same the world over

[blackspade]

21. Lisa Monaco is a fucking idiot.

Last edited Wed Jul 29, 2015, 12:33 PM - Edit history (1)

“dangerous decision to steal and disclose classified information had severe consequences for the security of our country and the people who work day in and day out to protect it.”

And what were those "severe consequences?"
There will be no answer, because our M$M can't be bothered to ask questions in between their stenographer duties.

And this same old bullshit:

She said that Snowden, who has been granted asylum in Russia after he leaked documents on vast US surveillance programs to journalists, is “running away from the consequences of his actions.”

The only reason he is in Russia at all is because the US revoked his passport without due process stranding him in the fucking airport.

And this:

“If he felt his actions were consistent with civil disobedience, then he should do what those who have taken issue with their own government do: challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest, and — importantly — accept the consequences of his actions,” she wrote.

Really? And that has worked out so well for many others. No, I think he is in a much better position to "challenge it, speak out, engage in a constructive act of protest." The "consequences" that this stooge is proposing is silence. just like Manning and others whose voices have been cut off when they challenge and speak out against our "National Security" apparatus.

[MADem]

43. Your facts are out of order, there.

The only reason he is in Russia at all is because the US waited until he was there and then revoked his passport without due process stranding him in the fucking airport.

He went to Hong Kong (where he stayed in the Russian Consulate, not at the Mira Hotel) and that's where his passport was revoked. The Chinese "played dumb" and let him leave for Moscow even after getting the "detain" order from their supposed ally, saying there was a discrepancy in the middle name the US government gave them, or something.

If he wants "due process" with regard to his passport, he can come on home and ask for it. He probably should have thought about that before he gave all that material to the Russians and the Chinese--and he did give it to them, intentionally or otherwise, and they've cracked it. That's why he's not coming home except to go directly to jai.

[blackspade]

67. You are correct on that point.

His passport was revoked about the same time as he boarded the plane to Russia en route to Ecuador.
On your other points:
Due process is a right, not something that has to be asked for.
And again, there is no proof that he gave the Chinese and Russians anything at all. That is conjecture.

[MADem]

69. His passport was not "revoked," if you want to be technical about it. He still has it.

And it remains valid--for return to the US. The word 'revoked' is easier for people to wrap their heads around, so it is commonly used.

The US wants him, though, there's an international arrest warrent out for him, and they want anyone who puts their paws on that passport to detain the holder.

The Chinese pretended they didn't know that the Edward Snowden the US wanted was the same guy being followed around town. They did this for a very plain reason--it was in their interest that Snowden not get caught.

Due process is a right you have to initiate in response to a perceived affront--it's not something that happens by magic. They revoked his travel permissions to any nation-state other than USA, he needed to come on home and respond to the charges of theft, passing secrets to other nations, and national security violations that he has admitted to. He didn't do that--he ran and hid.

As for what happened with Snowden, it is folly to assume that he hid out, with those laptops, BEFORE he met Poitras/Greenwald, in the Russian Consulate in HK and never slept. And why did he give an essentially pointless interview to a SCMP reporter?

So yeah, sure, "no proof." Check out what this publication has to say about that:

http://www.thenation.com/article/did-russia-china-harvest-snowdens-secrets/

China benefitted greatly from sending Snowden on to Russia--they had "the goods," they have very talented hackers, and they wanted the time to crack that crap without anyone from the US government being able to forensically determine that they'd gotten the goods. It's not unreasonable to assume that the Russians and the Chinese did a little tag-teaming there, and it's also not unreasonable to wonder if Edward Snowden isn't a Russian asset, and has been for many years now. If he is a Russian asset, I would suspect he was turned around the time of his first visit to HK, when he was working in Japan, or maybe even earlier, when he was working in Switzerland. Those guys are relentless, and they're always recruiting--and they're very active in the Asian sphere.

[blackspade]

76. I think you misunderstand due process.

As far as the Nation article....your quotation is still all speculation.

But you're going to believe whatever you wish to believe.

[MADem]

78. I don't think I do, and really--isn't everything "speculation?"

But you're going to believe whatever you wish to believe.

[Renew Deal]

27. "accept the consequences of his actions"

I agree. As long as he runs to the enemy and hides there he is a traitor. His reputation could have been completely different.

[MBS]

30. " " " " n/t

[fbc]

29. Does this mean Hillary Clinton can give an opinion on the subject now?

I bet she wanted to avoid answering this one too. She's probably shaking her fists and screaming "OBAMA!!!!"

[closeupready]

33. LOL - because our justice system is fair and balanced,

and will treat him fairly - like they did Chelsea Manning.

[L0oniX]

63. What with all the mysterious deaths in jails I'm sure he will be ok.

[closeupready]

66. Just a flesh wound. Quit faking it. LOL, 'can't breathe!' Yeah right.

[riderinthestorm]

38. "Snowden should be hung in the public square as soon as we get our hands on him"

says Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Saxby Chambliss. No trial, no due process.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141151783

Anyone still under any delusions Snowden will ever get a fair trial in the U.S.?

He was smart to run as far as he could, while he could.

If he'd stayed in the US, his options would have been to try to not commit "suicide" in prison, or die in a small plane crash, or "accidentally drown" while fishing etc...

[MADem]

45. Saxby Chambliss is NOT the Vice Chair of the SIC, and hasn't been for a while.

He's no longer a US Senator. He's retired. He has no power to do anything. The very link you provide makes that clear.

He's a guy who USED to have a job, mouthing off with a halfassed opinion. His words have no authority.

[still_one]

48. good to point that out, and chambliss only represents himself today

[MADem]

55. Chambliss is a dispicable pig,who is "imagining" what he might like to see were he still in charge.

As long as we're playing that game, here's what I'd like to see:

I'd love to see Max Cleland slap the shit out of him with his one good arm and then back over him with his wheelchair a few times--that, too, is nothing but a fantasy, but it warms the cockles of my heart.

I'd like to think my fantasy would happen before Chambliss sees his dreams come true!!!

[still_one]

58. Lol. I agree

[riderinthestorm]

49. He was on the committee when Snowden ran in May 2013

I doubt Saxby Chambliss' opinion on Snowden has changed much between now and then.

If he wants him dead now, he wanted him dead then.

And Snowden had to make a decision about his future then.

That's why it matters.

And frankly, Snowden already had multiple examples of other whistleblowers whose lives were ruined by this Administration. He knew what he faced - at best a kangaroo trial, at worst being suicided. His personal safety was never guaranteed here - too many wanted him dead without trial.

[MADem]

50. Your post is shopping a falsehood. He is quoted IN YOUR LINK as a retiree. He has no authority.

"Frankly" your post illustrates nothing more than the musings of a querulous old man desperate to retain a sense of relevance in retirement.

His opinion and five bucks can buy him a cuppa coffee.

[Renew Deal]

52. His words had no authority when he said it.

[MADem]

56. Yes. He was retired when he said it, and we don't do "hangings" -- at least not legally--in this

country.

[MADem]

81. He was lecturing at the U of GA biz school when he said it!

I guess all those business students need to respect his authori-teh!!!

“I hope none of you have any sympathy for him,” he told students at the Terry College of Business.

[pocoloco]

60. LO fucking L

Thank goodness yours don't either!!

[MADem]

62. You don't know me. nt

[Thinkingabout]

39. Some are hinting of Snowden testifying, great advice, as good as the advice for

Snowden to go and steal in the first place, as good as the advice for him to distribute the files he stole. He can return to the US and face trial or he can remain some where else as long as he chooses. He chose to steal, to deliver files and commit espionage, no sympathy here.

[MADem]

85. He's stuck. He's America's Kim Philby, now. He'd better double up on the Russian lessons.

One day, all will be revealed, and I suspect that the full story won't make Mr. Snowden look like a hero. I think he'll find himself in Pollard territory.

But, as they say, time will tell!!

[Thinkingabout]

101. His crime was premeditated, planned and executed by Snowden. He is a hacker who does not mind

stealing from others and now he thinks he should be pardoned, HA.

[Kelvin Mace]

44. Sure, Snowden can face trial right after

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, et al, are tried for war crimes.

[Jack Rabbit]

46. Jack Rabbit says Hayden, Alexander and Clapper should face trial

OK, perhaps they haven't broken any laws. That's part of the problem.

Or perhpas they have broken laws, and the DoJ simply regards them as too big to fail.

As for Snowden, he should come home to a grateful nation and receive the presidential medal of freedom.

[Gregorian]

53. The truth is often a crime, in capitallism.

Sorry, we won.

[Xyzse]

57. See, a few months ago to a year, I would have said the same thing.

Honestly though, seeing how badly the US has botched their policing and justice system...
I can't really recommend that at the moment.

[L0oniX]

61. He should be given a medal.

[Beauregard]

80. +1.

The Medal of Freedom. President Sanders could pin it on him.

[Feeling the Bern]

65. Not guilty. Next!

[Jappleseed]

68. Law and order only some of the time is not

law and order. Put the masterminds behind the torture on death row then work on this. Put the pigs on trial who murder the minorities. This is getting utterly rediculous, one rule for the elite and another for the rest of us.

[cstanleytech]

72. I dont think Snowden will return, not because could not get a fair trial but because

if evidence would emerge to prove that he did sale even one single piece of intel to any government be it China or Russia in exchange for anything hes toast.

[cstanleytech]

92. As are yours and feel to them to yourself next time rather share them with me.

[Beauregard]

94. If you want that, you have to put me on ignore.

But you should have more respect for your readers. Your post was such a grammatical mess that it was almost impossible to untangle.

Get with it.

[Eric J in MN]

89. The Espionage Act is an unjust law with no whistle blower exception.

Ed Snowden couldn't get a fair trial if he had stayed in the US because a trial based on an unjust law is unfair.

[cstanleytech]

93. Maybe, but since he ran we will probably never know for certain *shrug*

[Eric J in MN]

99. Ed Snowden admits to being the source of articles on the NSA

...and the Espionage Act lacks a whistle blower exception.

I don't see how the verdict if he stood trial could be anything but guilty.

[LiberalLovinLug]

83. So many "Law and Order" zealots in one place

I wonder where many of these "but but but he STOLE something!....he should come and face an unfair trial where he can't defend his actions and take his punishment!" types would have stood during the 60's with all those ILLEGAL anti-war demonstrations, and the Chicago Seven, and of course Daniel Ellsberg?

I get the feeling that they would all feel so much safer if there were no such term a "civil disobedience" or "whistleblower". The world is so much simpler in black and white. And for that matter Rosa Parks should have been rightly arrested and charged at the time. She broke the rules. There is no excuse for that!!!!!!! Even exposing racial inequality. Just like there is no excuse for Snowden or Manning. Exposure of war crimes and illegal citizen privacy breaches likewise is NO EXCUSE!!!.

[Beauregard]

86. Actually, there are fewer than usual.

Just a handful of blue-dogs and Snowden haters this time. I found this somewhat refreshing.

[bemildred]

100. Here kitty kitty kitty. Heeeere kitty kitty kitty.

[LiberalLovinLug]

102. + 1

exactly.