Bernie Sanders Applied for 'Conscientious Objector' Status During Vietnam: Campaign Confirms

[big_dog]

Source: ABC News-23 minutes ago

Bernie Sanders applied for conscientious objector status during the Vietnam War, his campaign has confirmed to ABC News. "As a college student in the 1960s he was a pacifist," Michael Briggs, campaign spokesman added in an email. "[He] isn't now." Last week, the Des Moines Register ran a column from a Hillary Clinton supporter and Vietnam veteran, titled, "How can Sanders be commander in chief?"

"My question as a Vietnam veteran is: How on earth could a person claiming to be a conscientious objector become the commander in chief of the most powerful military in the world?" questioned the column author Steve Wikert. According to a profile from the Vermont Senator's hometown newspaper, the Burlington Free Press, his conscientious objector status application was eventually rejected, but by then Sanders was too old to be drafted.

Sanders's political and anti-war activism in the 1960s and '70s has been well-documented. While at the University of Chicago, he was a member of several progressive peace organizations, including the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and the Student Peace Union. As a congressman and later senator, Sanders has rarely voted to authorize the use of force. Sanders's campaign website does not include any foreign policy or national security information under its "On the Issues" tab, but the Senator said he would be focusing more on those issues in the future.

In 1991, he stood in opposition to the first Gulf War, voting against military involvement in the country even after Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait. "I think we could've gotten Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait in a way that did not require a war," he told ABC's Martha Raddatz Sunday on "This Week," arguing that with the world in agreement, other options were available, including sanctions. After the terrorist attacks on 9/11, Sanders did vote in favor of a military response in Afghanistan. But Sanders said the use of force, in his opinion, is not only permissible in response to an attack.





Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/bernie-sanders-applied-conscientious-objector-status-vietnam-campaign/story?id=33434041

[arcane1]

1. Someone who saw the invasion of Vietnam as the crime it was n/t

[BainsBane]

53. Unlike drone attacks?

and the occupation of Palestine? Those aren't crimes?

[randys1]

55. I am not thrilled with his position on drones either, or Palestine, I suppose. Who is running

and can win who is against drones?

[BainsBane]

80. There are a few issues

One is trying to figure out what Sanders' views on the role of the military and how he would use it, and how that reconciles with his own decision not to serve. If he was a conscience objector in Vietnam, why is it okay to drop bombs on Muslims and support ongoing Israeli settlement in Palestine? People here have excoriated Clinton as a murderer and held Sanders up in direct contrast, when in fact there seems to be little contrast other than the fact Sanders had the good sense to vote against Iraq (but then of course he wasn't representing NY, where the 9/11 attacks occurred), and he himself refused to serve in the military while Clinton as a young woman in the sixties was never subject to the draft. Then of course Clinton has extensive diplomatic experience as Secretary of State, which would serve her well should she become president.

Then there is the fact a good many Sanders supporters change their views on key issues in accordance to what he says. They denounced Obama as a criminal for using drones, but say it's okay for Sanders to continue the program. Why? What is the difference?

Citizens typically look at candidates and make decisions based on qualifications and their views on the positions they advance. In the case of Sanders, his supporters decide what to believe based on what he says. The views of his supporters here thus become a bellwether to what to expect from his administration. We know his supporters will not hold him accountable for serving the interests of the subaltern majority or rolling back military incursions because many have already made clear none of those issues compare to Sanders political fortunes. Any criticism of him is deemed unacceptable and often results in hides. An avid Sanders supporter insisted that Bernie would incorporate supporters into his administration. Why would I want to live in a society where dissent is unacceptable, where the subaltern is told they have no right to question their president, who they should just accept will give them everything they need?

The irony is that people here criticize Clinton of changing her views and insulted her supporters as "camp weather vane." Yet I have never changed a single opinion to accommodate hers. My views remain my own, and I have never seen nor do I expect to find a candidate that reflects my values and concerns as a whole. I can and will vote for someone AND criticize them on key policies I am troubled by. Yet people here think it acceptable to pick up and drop major values (like peace and non-violence) in response to what a politician says. That causes me great concern.

[Koinos]

87. A good and thoughtful response. Thank you, Bainsbane.

We can't take our cues from a candidate. We ourselves have to engage in critical thinking about the issues.

Whatever candidate we choose will have strong points and weak points. That is the nature of being human.

Agreement without dissent or questioning is authoritarianism, not democracy.

[randys1]

102. I am a fan of Bernie and would support Hillary, and today listening to Michaelangelo Signorile on XM

a Bernie supporter called in and used rightwing propaganda style nonsense to attack Hillary.

Generalizations like she has no platform or agenda, and then MS laid out her platform on several issues and the caller just kept repeating, just like the righty's do when they call in.

Very disturbing.

This person has NO relationship to Bernie or his campaign, that I am certain of.

It is just many, not all, Bernie supporters fit into a category of types where doing that would not surprise me.

[BainsBane]

110. I understand you don't do that Randy

I was speaking about a general tendency. I've observed you are very different.

I will also point out there is a problem in that CO status was granted to those who oppose war itself, not just the Vietnam war, but all wars. Clearly that isn't the case for Sanders. It would seem he's evolved on the point and should explain how and why he did so.

[randys1]

112. TO be faiir to him he must have filled out his CO forms truthfully and said he only opposed

Vietnam which is why he was turned down.

And I knew you werent talking about me.

Here is the sad thing, we have two really good candidates.

Compared to the other side, they are both geniuses and saints.

And yet all we do is fight, but one side is more guilty than the other...sadly

[oberliner]

164. What is his Palestinian position that you aren't thrilled with?

Nonetheless, he declared that the United States “should be evenhanded for Israel and the Palestinians.”

“Palestinians are entitled to a state of their own, and the United States should do what it can to make sure that state has a strong economy,” he said. “Israel is entitled to live in security, not be attacked.. Those are the two guiding principles that I will work for.”

http://jpupdates.com/2015/08/04/sanders-the-u-s-should-be-evenhanded-on-israeli-palestinian-conflict/

You object to that?

[arcane1]

64. This thread is about Vietnam n/t

[Smarmie Doofus]

81. You tell me: *are* they crimes? n/t

[24601]

86. The criteria for conscientious objector was decided by the USSC. Justice Thurgood Marshall wrote

the opinion in the Court's 8-1 decision in Gillette v. United States 401 U.S. 437 (1971).

Marshall wrote that "the section [§ 6(j) of the [Selective Service Act of 1967] says that anyone who is conscientiously opposed to all war shall be relieved of military service" covers all religious objection to all wars with "no particular sectarian affiliation or theological position required."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gillette_v._United_States

[happyslug]

170. You should cite the actual case, not the Wikipedia cite. Worse, Wikipedia cites an EDITED test.

Here is the actual case:

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=10642158021794943608&hl=en&as_sdt=6&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr

[roguevalley]

90. how can hillary expect someone to call into question his firmly held pacifism

as if she was someone who could lead even though she never served either? George W didn't serve (AWOL fucker) and look what happened? Few serve. Carter, Kennedy and Johnson served. Few pugs serve. What a specious argument to say his pacifism disqualities him from CIC when Clinton is married to a draft dodger and never served herself. Sad. The Viet Nam war sucked hard.

[hedgehog]

2. As I recall, there was a problem for a lot of young men who opposed

the Vietnam War rather than all wars. They were willing to defend their country, but not to go to Vietnam for no clear reason. These young men had problems getting CO status. I can Sanders is on the right track regarding the use of the military.

[hueymahl]

3. The world's largest military

Could use someone at its helm that is not itching to deploy it.

[MuseRider]

6. ^^^^

[Mr.Bill]

9. There is a reason

the founding fathers made a civilian the CIC.

[Historic NY]

68. But we have elected 26 out of 44 that had military serivce.

[Mr.Bill]

79. And that's okay, if it's what the voters want.

And most of those voters are civilians. The main point is the founding fathers did not want to leave total command of the military to the generals. It's one of the best checks and balances in the Constitution.

[Enthusiast]

128. +100%!

[Sanity Claws]

109. Did you include W as one of the 26?

He got out of Vietnam through his daddy. Didn't have to claim C.O.

[Raymondo22]

37. +1 nt

[tecelote]

83. When did we stop being the Peace Keepers?

In fact, when did "Peace" become a bad word?

We need a President that hates - HATES - war.

Profits be damned.

[Art_from_Ark]

159. At one time, "Peace" was considered to be such a good word,

we even put it on a coin



and on a Vietnam-era stamp, too



as well as several postal cancellations of that era

[Enthusiast]

127. +100%!

[John Poet]

174. AMEN to that!

I'd much rather have someone as C-I-C who is close to being a pacifist,
than some cowboy, or someone who's afraid to "look weak".

[Electric Monk]

4. He was straight up honest about it, unlike a certain AWOL* recent CinC* warmonger I can think of.

Bernie is consistent, which is something I like about him. He is no flip-flopper.

[6chars]

12. means there won't be a drip drip drip

with him trying to prevent this "news" from coming out, and with opponents ready to say "Gotcha"

[Raymondo22]

46. This is also one reason why he openly calls himself a 'socialist' --

--even though his policy proposals are not socialist policies (no public ownership of the means of production). In this way he weakens the force of "gotcha" journalistic investigations into his YPSL past.

[randys1]

61. I have wondered why he ever identified as a "socialist" if he did so without adding

democratic to it because it just confuses the hell out of people.

Bernie, like myself, simply wants more government run services for the good of the people.

Socialism is different, but then the average American doesnt understand anyway.

I just said in a post a few minutes ago that I am a socialist at heart, but I am not.

Because if I was I would be for

Socialism is a social and economic system characterised by social ownership and/or social control of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, as well as a political theory and movement that aims at the establishment of such a system.

I think social control of production would be fine if that meant everyone working at any company has ownership in that company, what would that be called if the government had no ownership?

[Raymondo22]

72. I think it's to undercut the inevitable red baiting.

Better to proclaim it than be accused of it. Besides, he's helping to rehabilitate the word "socialism" so that people don't automatically throw up in their mouths when they hear it.

Your last point is interesting. Depending on the way you set it up, your employee-ownership plan without government control could be called anarcho-capitalism, competitive public enterprise, or anarcho-syndicalism. Other terminolgy is also possible.

[cascadiance]

47. Whose forces also got a certain television host fired for trying to report the truth on this too!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/she-the-people/post/dan-rather-still-defends-his-report-on-george-w-bush/2012/04/17/gIQAYNLoNT_blog.html

Corporatist Media will still try to pave the way for those obey the big money people's wishes, and punish those who don't as seen here and how they will probably try to go after Bernie in a way they HAVE NOT gone after past presidential candidates.

[JonLP24]

208. They go so far and beyond to discredit whoever gets in their way and truth is the biggest thing

because the #1 thing the US does in any campaign is use information warfare to not only sell the reasons for why they are doing whatever they are doing but use "tough rhetoric" which is said to the public rather than whoever the bad guy is, omit significant information. There also seems to be a sense of having the public feeling nationalistic so they adopt they perceived enemies based on available information they were presented with. Any war, any side the US supports, is obviously done for economic reasons such as letting the multinationals in.

[Renew Deal]

5. The strong and wrong vs weak and right problem

People know that Hillary (and to some degree Trump) will do anything to defend this country. Can the same be said about Sanders? I know people don't like this argument, but people want to feel safe. The political attacks and counterattacks reinforce perceptions.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

8. That's a right-wing meme that you may want to help develop on FR

Do you understand the difference between a just war and an unjust war. Well, Bernie does.

[Renew Deal]

24. No it's not. It's from Bill Clinton

“When people feel uncertain, they'd rather have somebody that's strong and wrong than somebody who's weak and right.”

http://thinkexist.com/quotation/when_people_feel_uncertain-they-d_rather_have/337164.html

[SoapBox]

32. OMG...like Bush?!?

Well...he sure was the hell wrong!

And look what that got us.

If indeed Clinton said that, I NEVER want him near the White House again.

[Renew Deal]

38. Is Clinton wrong?

It's the reason Trump is so popular right now.

[haikugal]

85. I think that depends on your definition of weak, strong and wrong....

[Enthusiast]

130. Sure does.

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

92. That explains it!

[frylock]

116. Remind me, what was Bill Clinton doing during the Vietnam war?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

14. Anything including voting for illegal wars.

Hillary's record hasn't made us any safer.

[The CCC]

22. The strong and wrong vs weak and right problem

Protect us from whom? We lost the Vietnam War in the early 1970's(Vietnam was never ours to begin with). The former USSR collapsed in 1990. China is on our Most Favored Nation trading list. ISIS in no more than a pimple on a flea's ass. Just whom is this we're defending our nation against that requires the most expensive military than the next 100+ countries combined?

[Renew Deal]

28. Perception vs. reality

Reality doesn't matter.

[Enthusiast]

131. +100%!

[blackspade]

36. How can anyone in this country NOT feel safe from foriegn invaders?

Who the fuck is going to make us not feel safe?
ISIS? bullshit. Al-Quada? bullshit.
These groups and others like them are propaganda and smokescreens for those in this country that want fearful citizens that are easily controlled for the profit of the 1%.

[arcane1]

57. Who the fuck is going to make us not feel safe? Let's see...

Our leaders.

Our media.

I think that's it

[nichomachus]

43. They'll do anything -- except actually fight

[Raymondo22]

51. "Hillary (and to some degree Trump) will do anything to defend this country."

"Anything" includes a whole lot, such as torture, bacteriological and chemical warfare, and nuclear weapons. The willingness to use such things does not seem to me to help keep America "safe." Quite the opposite. It puts America at great risk.

[cascadiance]

66. Trump had "deferrments" to avoid Vietnam draft like Cheney and got released for a "bone spur"...

that "disqualified" him for service then. Hmmm....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questions-linger-about-trumps-draft-deferments-during-vietnam-war/2015/07/21/257677bc-2fdd-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html

So remind us again why Hillary (who didn't have to face the draft like Bernie did), or Trump who found his way of avoiding serving as well, should be held in higher regard, when Bernie spoke his conscience at the time, which is consistent with his stances on going to war he's had since then, which he's wanted to keep consistently as a last option.

And yet, of just about all of the candidates, veterans like him most, for providing the most support for veteran's programs to help vets deal with the problems they face after the service, that Republicans and some corporate Democrats like to ignore as being "costly" and not as important to their military industrial complex friends that care more about war spending and sending our kids to those wars.

[TBF]

125. FFS, maybe we should stop demanding their

resources. "People want to feel safe" - stop going to other countries and taking their stuff. How hard is this?

[Renew Deal]

169. Not hard

But also not how it's viewed by the general public. I know that there are people that think we "deserved" 9/11. Most people would disagree.

[TBF]

173. I'm giving you the real answer -

not the Fox news spin.

So Bernie was too old for Viet Nam.

Obama was not military - nor was Hillary.



Major candidates who served in the military: Republicans Rick Perry and Lindsey Graham and Democrat Jim Webb.

Ted Cruz and Rand Paul have never served in the military. Neither have Marco Rubio, Jeb Bush, Scott Walker, Chris Christie, Mike Huckabee, Rick Santorum or Bobby Jindal. And those are just the Republicans gearing up for a presidential campaign.

The same goes for the Democrats likely to seek their party’s nomination for president: Hillary Clinton, Martin O’Malley and Bernie Sanders aren’t veterans either.

(cite: http://dailycaller.com/2015/05/04/few-2016-presidential-candidates-have-military-experience-does-that-matter/#ixzz3kU7VqafK)

Do you really want Rick Perry, Lindsey Graham or Jim Webb running this country?

Me either.

[EX500rider]

199. "stop going to other countries and taking their stuff."

Exactly who's stuff did we "take"?

[TBF]

200. Don't even start with me. nt

[EX500rider]

201. In other words we haven't gone & taken anything from anybody since the end of WWII...

[TBF]

204. Not just land - resources.

But you know that.

[EX500rider]

205. Fine...what resources have we forcibly taken and not paid for?

[TBF]

206. Look, whether we "pay" is not the point,

Last edited Wed Sep 2, 2015, 08:15 AM - Edit history (1)

it is that we go to other countries, milk them for the resources we want (at prices we want), and if they don't agree with our plans ("our" means the multi-national corporations we've grown with our rampant capitalism) we back up our plans with military might. If you're really confused you need to check out a few books by Howard Zinn.

And if you're seriously ambitious you can try reading Lenin's "Imperialism". Right here, free of charge -- https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/imp-hsc/

When you've finished that let me know if you have any questions.

[EX500rider]

211. So in other words you have zero examples where we have stolen resources in the last 50 years..

....nor do I suppose you have any proof that our government has forced a country to sell resources at a price we pick or we threaten them will military action.

And I doubt Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin) will have any proof of that either....having been dead for 91 years.

And no I am not interested in reading the fiction work "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" either.

[TBF]

212. I see our discussion here is done.

Enjoy your visit.

[John Poet]

175. I DON'T "FEEL SAFE" with someone who

"will do anything to defend this country".

The emphasis usually ends up on "will do anything", and whether or not their actions actually "defend this country" is an afterthought.

We were not defending this country in Iraq.
We were not defending this country in Vietnam.

Neither attacked this country.

[Vincardog]

7. Please tell me exactly what would be wrong with a CinC who DIDN'T want every war possible?

How the hell is this supposed to be a problem?

FUCK THE WAR HAWKS especially the CHICKEN HAWKS

[L0oniX]

20. "CHICKEN HAWKS" = sexist hawks?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=530253

[Vincardog]

29. No Chicken Hawks = 5 deferments anal cyst dick Cheney becoming war monger. Couldn't be bothered

To serve but glad to send your children to fight his war for his profit.

[cascadiance]

59. Yep, at least Sanders took a principled stand as a conscientious objector instead of using EXCUSES..

... that Cheney would use to avoid serving, even though he hypocritically was a strong war (make that *chicken*) hawk later!

http://bringiton22205.tripod.com/id11.html

Sanders has been consistent with not being in favor of the Vietnam war, and trying to avoid war whenever possible compared to many other chicken hawks who avoided serving, but feel it is others' duties to serve when they wouldn't! Or in the case of Hillary, didn't have to. Many of the younger candidates like O'Malley, Rubio, etc. didn't have to take a position in the draft, since they weren't old enough before it was discontinued too. So it's really a false point of comparison.

[hughee99]

161. If 5 deferments disqualifies someone, we should look for a better backup plan than Joe Biden. n/t

[hughee99]

185. No problems with Bernie.

Biden is being set up as the DNC "establishment" plan "B". He has 5 deferments and has been okay with unnecessary military adventures in the past.

[Vincardog]

188. An establishment democrat to replace an establishment democrat is no plan it is

Wishful thinking or a delusion.

[hughee99]

190. It's the plan of the "establishment democrats", not mine.

Why would they push for anyone who isn't going to go along with them? No, I don't think this plan will work, but it seems pretty clear that's their plan.

[Vincardog]

191. My plan, is to laugh at their plans, all the way to Bernie's inauguration

[roguevalley]

95. that breaks my balls. L0oniX. We have all lost our minds.

[John Poet]

176. Heh, that was just STUPID.

[tomm2thumbs]

10. his service to the country in government is as valuable as any boot tromping he may have done

which can't be said for Trump's post-4-deferments contribution to this country

[ForgoTheConsequence]

11. Ops agenda against Sanders is out of control.

Where was Biden during Vietnam? Where was Bill Clinton? Where was Jeb Bush?


This is a none issue.

[SoapBox]

41. Where exactly was Bill Clinton?

Speaking of...

[Vincardog]

62. 'Conscientious Objector' Bill Clinton I believe was at Oxford.

[roguevalley]

96. hiding under his bed and I say this as the sister of a brother whose draft number was 2.

[karynnj]

194. And do you remember the deal he got with the Arkansas National Guard to be there?

Do you then remember that when he got a good number in the draft lottery, he wrote a pretty obnoxious letter ending that deal? (Anyone in that time frame would have backed out of the deal - few would have written that letter especially if they had political aspirations.)

The fact is that Clinton, like Bush, Quayle and others used strings to avoid the war. Clinton's strings came from having interned for Fullbright while at Georgetown. Sanders, who was active in various groups like SNCC and CORE, while attending the University of Chicago did not have strings - either from his contacts in Brooklyn or Chicago.

It is pretty likely the Republican will not have served as well.

Graham, Gilmore and Perry - who between them have no chance - served. Trump, Bush, Carson, Paul, Rubio, Pataki (who graduated Yale the year between when Kerry and Bush did - clearly used deferments), Christie, Cruz (not for Cuba, Canada or the US), Santorum, Fiorina, and Jindal all did not serve.

Walker, not only didn't serve, but has links to people who defrauded purple heart winners -

How aboutWalker appointed Kevin Kavanaugh, treasurer of the local chapter of the Military Order of the Purple Heart, as a member of the County Veterans Service Commission.[37] Walker raised funds annually for veterans at the Operation Freedom Benefit, with proceeds to the Military Order of the Purple Heart. Walker's Chief of Staff, Thomas Nardelli, indicated that he went to Walker with concerns about missing money in 2009, and Walker directed him to report it to the district attorney's office. The district attorney did not immediately act but later launched a "John Doe" investigation.[37] Kavanaugh and four others were arrested for theft of funds. Kavanaugh was convicted and sentenced to 21 months in prison.[38][39]
Tim Russell, employed by Walker in a number of posts, was implicated in the same investigation; he was charged in January 2012 and pled guilty in November 2012 to diverting more than $21,000 to his personal bank account. In 2010, Walker's last year as Milwaukee County executive, Russell was his deputy chief of staff and Milwaukee Housing Director.[40] Walker was not charged with any wrongdoing.[4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Walker

this little gem from Wikipedia on John Kasich, who did not serve:
[div class="excerpt]
After attending public schools in McKees Rocks, Kasich enrolled at Ohio State University, where he joined the Alpha Sigma Phi fraternity.[14] As a freshman he wrote a letter of admiration to President Richard Nixon, requesting a meeting with the President. The letter was delivered to Nixon by the University's president Novice Fawcett and Kasich was granted a 20-minute meeting with Nixon in December 1970.[15]


Or the fact, that but for flat feet, Huckabee would have had a great military career:

• Mike Huckabee had not voluntarily signed up for military service and came of age as draft was ending. A brief explanation on why a stint in the army is missing in Huckabee?s resume, states the reason as 'flat feet'.

• Huckabee had all the traits of a natural leader and longed to be of service to his people but his flat feet became a roadblock. "These flat feet have bothered me all my life" he is quoted as saying.

• When he was a freshman in college, Huckabee had enrolled in the Reserve Officers Training Corps (ROTC) and looked forward to serving in combat. On noticing his flat feet, the ROTC Director discouraged him from joining the army. Huckabee remembers, "He told me there was no point in my continuing because the army wouldn't have me anyway."

• The Vietnam War came to an end, thus ending Huckabee's desire to pursue a career in the military. Perfectly understanding that every chapter in his life had been God's doing, Huckabee is a wee bit cheerless when he says, "My flat feet ended what I'm sure would have been a heralded military career in the post-Vietnam 1970s."

http://2012.presidential-candidates.org/Huckabee/Military.php

WHO IN EITHER PARTY WILL BRING THIS ISSUE UP? Frankly, if Clinton did, I HOPE it blows up in her face with the story of Bill's nasty letter resurfacing. His condescension was not attractive.

[Vincardog]

197. I only got involved in this thread to ask "How does posessing principales disqualify Berie"?

IT does NOT.

[Enthusiast]

132. +1 an entire shit load.

[rocktivity]

13. Senator Sanders, your Reverend Wright moment has been delivered.

Like Obama, he's just against illegal or dumb wars.


rocktivity

[Gregorian]

15. My wish is that America is grown up enough for someone like Bernie

I'm still a bit shocked at the support he's getting. I guess there are a few with a mature sense of civility.

[JDPriestly]

16. Americans voted for George W. Bush. Bush II escaped the war in the reserve.

And there is a big question about whether he really completed the job he promised to do there.

Cheney had student deferments.

Bernie was a conscientious objector. I respect that. My parents were pacifists.

Quakers are conscientious objectors as are many people.

We go to war all too quickly.

Bernie supports Obama's treaty with Iran. Good for him.

We spend too much money on military toys and on contracts. Bernie might bring some balance to our excessive military focus.

America needs to spend more money teaching kids foreign languages and studying foreign cultures. We probably could save money on our military and export more of our products if we understood other countries and cultures more.

We seem to take the big stick to every problem in the world. Fortunately, we don't take the big stick to every problem we have with each other and especially with our children.

I support Sanders on this issue.

I think that our first and second wars in Iraq were huge mistakes. I agree with Sanders that we could have helped the Iraqi people get rid of Saddam Hussein without being involved in that war as our country. Face it. The reason we wanted to go in there was to be able to have a say in how the oil would be produced and sold.

And if I remember correctly, the first Iraq war in was it 1992 (the one led by the first president Bush) was about the allegation that Iraq was slant drilling into oil reserves in Kuwait. Am I right? Hussein invaded Kuwait we are told. We then went in. We could have resolved that with severe international economic reprisals, even more severe than were imposed, against Iraq. There are probably a lot of countries especially in the Middle East that do not want those kinds of oil exploitation practices to be accepted.

Peace takes hard work and intelligent, logical thinking as well as skill in the use of language, in persuasion and being personable. It takes a lot of energy. We have some really good diplomats. We should give them more credit than they get.

I think that Obama has done a pretty good job with foreign policy. He hasn't started any new wars as far as I know. That is commendable.

Bernie Sanders recognizes that we have to have the best military in the world. We don't have to use it more than really necessary. And we need it to be very good at humanitarian help, which it is.

[L0oniX]

17. He hates war ...is bad?

[Z_California]

18. Few candidates have served.

As far as I know, Perry and Graham are the only ones to have served in the military on the GOP side. If this is to be a deciding factor, Democratic candidate Jim Webb should start preparing for the inauguration - 2 purple hearts, bronze star, silver star, navy cross. For some reason this all worked against John Kerry...

[leftofcool]

19. I wonder how Vietnam Vets will take this?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

21. How did they take Bill Clinton dodging the draft?

Or Bush Jr?

Or Joe Biden?


At least Sanders was honest.

[George II]

26. "At least Sanders was honest" - 40 years later.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

30. What?

He was an anti war activist during Vietnam. This wasn't a secret.

[progressoid]

44. So he lied about it for 40 years?

Hardly.

[cascadiance]

52. He didn't FILE to be a conscientious objector 40 years later...

It is only 40 years later that the corporatist media is looking at talking about it more because it suits their purpose towards trying to remove him as a threat to their power in the upcoming election.

Of course, they'll try to work through others trying to blame Bernie for this in a BS (not Bernie Sanders that is) way!!!

[Raymondo22]

94. Besides, being a conscientious objector is no disgrace.

Especially in the immoral and unjust Vietnam War.

[roguevalley]

97. George II just shows up and says stuff. It's alright.

[George II]

106. Its not mentioned in ANY of the biographies that have been posted....

...and its not mentioned in his campaign website biography, and I'm sure he would have liked it to never be mentioned.

In fact, if you look at his campaign website biography, there's a huge gap of specifics in his "Timeline, Bernie's Story" between when he graduated from the University of Chicago and 1972.

I never even heard of this CO business until yesterday.

[cascadiance]

111. If you dislike Republicans more than progressives, then why don't you bitch about Trump...

... who just RECENTLY acknowledge he got a medical deferment for what they claim to be "bone spurs" but can't be verified. This also just came out recently, and in my book is far more controversial than anything Bernie did.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questions-linger-about-trumps-draft-deferments-during-vietnam-war/2015/07/21/257677bc-2fdd-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html

Everyone wants Bernie to say EVERYTHING and blame when he doesn't. The documents of him filing as a conscientious objector are on file and people are free to report it. I don't see him hiding from it, or being in consistent with what he stood for then with what he stands for now!

If you don't want to go after Trump more than Bernie for arguably something that is far more of an issue that you are trying to pin on Bernie, then I call foul that you really want to beat Republicans more than Bernie in this election.

[LanternWaste]

120. I used to pretend that if I'd never heard of a thing, it didn't exist too.

"I never even heard of this CO business until yesterday..."

I used to pretend that if I'd never heard of a thing, it didn't exist too.

[George II]

144. Did you have a point?

[John Poet]

178. Do YOU?

It seems not.

[George II]

147. No, I never heard that Sanders applied for CO status until yesterday......

Considering that he's a candidate for President and be in a position to send Americans off to war, it would be incumbent upon him to be open about his position on serving in the military, don't you think?

[George II]

153. Trying what?

[LanternWaste]

118. What then did he say 40 years ago which was dishonest?

What then did he say 40 years ago which was in fact, dishonest?

[leftofcool]

34. Not very well as I recall. Clinton was called a draft dodger

[George II]

78. Biden didn't dodge the draft.

[roguevalley]

98. Joe Biden took FIVE draft deferments, then got cut loose because of asthma

he got as a child. Google it and you will know. He tied with Dick Cheney for draft dodging.

[cascadiance]

114. I guess they both have Trump beat with only four deferments before he got a loose for "bone spurs"..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questions-linger-about-trumps-draft-deferments-during-vietnam-war/2015/07/21/257677bc-2fdd-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html

I'm sure Trump will note that if Biden runs to deflect criticism.

[George II]

196. I knowthat. ..so? He was medically disqualified. I guess I "dodged" the draft.....

....I enlisted.

[rhett o rick]

35. You are out of the loop if you don't already know that answer. Vietnam vets were killed and

wounded and treated terribly. And for what? To enrich the MIC. They will all tell you that the war was a mistake. I challenge you to ask one. Be sure to buy them a coffee and sandwich, but don't thank them for their service.

[SoapBox]

50. Had had a cousin that was drafted after high school...

He was a fucked up mess when he came back, for many many years.

Then, he finally got his life turned around...off drugs and alcohol...met a nice lady...figured he would get married finally...and then fell over dead from a heart attack.

It was really sad.

Point being...war is bloody hell...it should be avoided at all possible costs.

Bravo Bernie.

[The River]

93. No Need to Ask, I'll Say It

As a Vietnam Vet who did 3 tours, I will say the war was a huge mistake.
I wasn't serving my country, I was being used by politicians and the M.I.C.
I came to admire the CO's for having taken the high moral ground.

Remember the old poster? "Imagine if they gave a war and nobody came?"

The consciences objectors did exactly that. If we had all done that,
the fat cats in defense industry board rooms and Congress might
have to go do their own killing..and dying.

[rhett o rick]

99. Thanks for sharing. I am glad you made it back. A guy I graduated from high school with,

didn't make it back. How do you feel when people tell you "thanks for your service"??

[The River]

121. This Is My Standard Reply

"If you really want to thank me, don't vote for people
who will take us to war."

I know people are trying to be sincere so I just let it go at that.
Frankly, just "Thanks" is enough. The qualifier can be a negative reminder.

[Le Taz Hot]

40. Well, they've given him awards

so I think they're good with it:

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/recent-business/vfw-congressional-award

[The CCC]

42. I wonder how Vietnam Vets will take this?

I'm a Vietnam Era vet. Was never sent to Vietnam. I don't have a problem with anyone not going if they didn't want to go.

[INdemo]

89. Well there were Viet Vets throwing their medals away after they came home

and found out the truth about this war.During this same time period there were those burning their draft cards.
Lets also remember LBJ lied to us all about Vietnam for the sake of the great military complex.
Remember CO's can be assigned other duties if called upon to do so.
I am a Vietnam Veteran USN support ship and I don't have any issue with Bernie Sanders being a CO at the time.
I do have an issue with a poor little rich kid going AWOL and lying about it. I also have an issue with a VP that had 5 student deferments and lying about that and then sending our kids off to die and never apologizing about falsifying the Iraqi WMDs.

Bill Clinton opposed the Vietnam War:
http://articles.latimes.com/1992-10-10/news/mn-689_1_vietnam-war-protest

Hillary Diane Rodham worked behind the scenes during the Vietnam protests and later was active antiwar candidate Eugene McCarthy campaign.

So Bill Clinton should not go there in reference to Bernie's CO status.

In fact as I later found out or realized that our troops were being rushed through boot camp and many or most draftee were learing the ways of jungle combat as they went along.

[Warren Stupidity]

142. The ones who hated the war or the ones who are rightwing tools?

[smokey nj]

184. If these awards are any indication, they're fine with it.

VFW Presents Sanders with Congressional Award
http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/photos/vfw-presents-sanders-with-congressional-award


Sanders, Miller receive Legion’s Patriot Award
http://www.legion.org/pressrelease/224420/sanders-miller-receive-legion’s-patriot-award

Veterans have no better advocate in Washington than Bernie Sanders and they know that.

I don't think it will hurt Bernie any more than Bill Clinton's draft "issues" hurt him.

[blackspade]

23. OK....So what?

A pacifist can't make positive decisions that effect the nation?
To be the President you have to love war?
What exactly is the point of this article?

[rhett o rick]

25. I applaud him for his anti-war stances. The pro-war stance of his primary opponent didn't

work out so well. We have too much war. War is just a way for the MIC to loot the lower classes of their money and children.

[Le Taz Hot]

27. And he was right!

If this is the new Clinton attack meme, please see above Subject Line for counter.

[liberal N proud]

31. You know the righties are going to go after that

Look what they did to Kerry and he did serve.

[SoapBox]

45. Where was Rump?

[liberal N proud]

63. Has a little hypocrisy ever bothered the republicans?

NO!

[cascadiance]

101. He got a "medical deferrment" for some bone spurs in his foot!

... that after he was no longer able to have deferments for going to school which he filed four times before he got his diploma.

Apparently he "is finally honest" now (or is he as this article contends they aren't sure if his campaign is or not) about how he avoided the draft then.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/questions-linger-about-trumps-draft-deferments-during-vietnam-war/2015/07/21/257677bc-2fdd-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html

[Warren Stupidity]

146. OMG there goes the republican vote!

We really should only run republicans. That way we won't be writing off 1/3 of the electorate right from the start.

[A Little Weird]

156. Righties will go after him whether he served or not

Hell, he could have come home with a chest full of medals and they would go after him. I'm just surprised DU'ers are doing it.

[John Poet]

179. If the right wants to go after him for this, LET them.

I think it would be a big mistake for them.

Americans, even many Republicans, are sick of endless and/or unnecessary wars,
and I think they will respect Sander's conscientious objection to serving
in a war which we almost universally recognize was a huge mistake,
if not also immoral and an illegal war of aggression.

[zazen]

33. frankly, were he a Quaker I _would_ have a problem with it, because there are necessary wars IMO

I seriously doubt he would have applied for that status during WWII, for example.

Had there been a clear and present threat of manifest evil such as Nazi Germany and he opposed all military intervention, I'd have a problem with that.

That would be the ONLY reason I'd switch my support from Sanders to Clinton. There are times you have to stand up to violent bullies with violence. I have no doubt about Clinton on that score.

Korea, Vietnam, and the middle eastern wars don't qualify. They were not clear and present dangers. Bin Laden could have been taken out (as Obama proved) without the idiotic way we invaded that country.

Obama is demonstrating a much better way of dealing with enemies, like Iran, and may very slowly change their hearts and minds as a result.

I detest Obama's economic policies but I give him serious snaps for the Iran deal and for standing up to AIPAC in solidarity with moderate, sane Israelis and American Jews who are sick to death of Zionism, just as we are sick of fundamentalists in this country.

[nichomachus]

39. Good for him -- makes me like him all the more

Even though I'm not a Bernie supporter.

It's head and shoulders above politicians who avoided service by piling up deferments of one kind or another.

[OKNancy]

48. Won't vote for him in the primary, but I have no problem with his actions

during Vietnam. Absolutely none.

[yellowcanine]

49. It is about time to quit waving the damn bloody shirt on Vietnam.

Vietnam was an excruciating period of history for young men of draft age. They made all kinds of choices based on the information they had at the time. Time to stop second guessing those choices.

[Raymondo22]

54. Yes.

And yes.

[herding cats]

56. Most Democrats are going to support this.

A very few won't, but most will without reservation.

I don't know how this will end up playing out with the self-described Independents. I've never understood that voting groups mindset. It will of course be used by Republicans to attempt to smear him.

[stillwaiting]

58. There is a difference between a conscientious objector and a chickenhawk.

His decision to apply as a conscientious objector showed courage and was the correct course of action for a war that should have never taken place.

I'd love to have a President who would not take us in to unneeded wars, and Bernie has shown excellent judgment over a very long period of time.

We need President Bernie Sanders.

[HassleCat]

60. Be careful with the "logic" of that commander in chief talk

We had George W. Bush, who wanted desperately to be a "wartime president" to make up for the fact he was not a veteran. What? Not a veteran? What the hell you talking about, HassleCat?

A veteran is someone who serves 181 days or more on active duty, not for training purposes. Bush 43 does not qualify. He is not a veteran of the United States military. He also walked away from the last few months of his National Guard obligation, indicating he didn't take his military duties very seriously when he was younger.

So we have this president who pretended to be in the military to avoid Vietnam, and couldn't even hang around to finish his cushy gig, and he starts a huge, disastrous war by sending his Secretary of State on TV to lie to the public. We would have been far better off with a conscientious objector, someone who gave at least a little consideration to the morality of war, and who might not have been so insecure about his manhood he felt compelled to start a bogus war and kill half a million people in a small, defenseless nation, while killing 5k of own people and racking up a multi-trillion dollar debt.

So, no. There is no logic to this hawkish tendency to demand a veteran president, or suggest a CO will not rise to the defense of the United States when the moment comes. It's just blabbering from a military that loves war. When we had citizen soldiers, and we got them involved in Vietnam for ten years, the nation didn't like it because they perceived we would be drafting their grandkids if we didn't put a stop to it. So we professionalized the military, but they want to practice their profession, which consist of breaking things and killing people, as Mike Huckabee repeated so many times. A successful career in the professional military depends on serving in combat, and combat requires warfare. The military does not like the lull between wars, something many of us call "peace."

The military depends on politicians to send them to war. Toward this end, they encourage hawkish patriotism, which includes denigrating pacifists. I will be disappointed, but not surprised, to see Democratic candidates fall into this trap.

[onehandle]

65. Just another hit to his electability in the GE.

Less important than his self-labeling as a Socialist, but certainly a problem.

What I think about him doing this is irrelevant to me, so I will not comment on this.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

69. You just did comment.

Reagan dodged.

Clinton dodged.

Bush dodged.

Cheney dodged.

Biden dodged.


And Hillary lied about ducking sniper fire.


None of this will be an issue.

[hamsterjill]

67. I like Bernie. I currently support Hillary. But I think this is going to be substantial.

This issue wouldn't honestly matter to me, personally, but I think it is going to matter to a lot of people of my age group and older who had friends that didn't come back from Viet Nam.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

70. No it wont.

Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Biden, Cheney.

All of these people pulled strings to get out of war. Sanders has been open about being an anti war activist during Vietnam.

[hamsterjill]

71. We'll have to agree to disagree then, because I think it will definitely matter.

Reagan, Clinton, Bush, Biden and Cheney all played the game and got deferments, etc.

Bernie filed as a CO...and back then, THAT was an issue.

Time will tell how this is perceived, and I'm fine if I wind up being wrong because, again, I like Bernie. But I don't think I will be.

[cascadiance]

117. Conscientious objectors were courageous in my book. Deferers were COWARDS...

..., especially those that vote for war first later as politicians before trying to do things diplomatically, which Bernie has tried to do as a politician.

If Bernie wins the nomination and faces ANOTHER DEFERER in Trump, he'll win HANDS DOWN on this issue!

[Adrahil]

172. I think you are right... And it won't matter....

This WILL be a big issue if Sanders is nominated. It' not fair, but there ya go.

[leftofcool]

82. And they called Clinton a draft dodger. You think they won't call Bernie the same thing?

[former9thward]

133. You are right on four of them.

Reagan volunteered. The Army rejected him because of eyesight but used him to do recruiting films.

[roguevalley]

100. given Hill could have enlisted and didn't, she didn't go either. none story

[hamsterjill]

136. Nope. I don't think so.

As I said, it was a different time.

[Warren Stupidity]

148. no it isn't.

Last edited Mon Aug 31, 2015, 09:00 PM - Edit history (1)

That war sucked. Unless you are in complete denial, people did whatever they could to stay out of it. Those who got sucked into it for the most part hated it. Yes there exist right wing vets who won't vote for Bernie. They won't vote for Hillary. Or Biden. Or O'Malley. They don't vote for Democrats.

[hamsterjill]

163. Thank you for your opinion.

Mine differs. As I've stated up post, it's not a material issue for me, but I still believe it will be for people who lived through Vietnam Nam.

Peace. It's okay to disagree.

[Art_from_Ark]

167. I remember my mom talking about sending me to Canada

if the Vietnam War wasn't over by the time I turned 18.

For people like her-- and me-- Bernie's conscientious objector status won't be a negative issue.

[John Poet]

181. I consider it a POSITIVE.

We've had ENOUGH war-mongering presidents.

Bernie's attempted CO status just makes it clear than any military action taken by him as a C-I-C would be absolutely the last resort, and that's the way I want it.

[Historic NY]

73. Couple weeks back his surrogates here were denying the story out of VT.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251550540

or hiding stories......
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251550285

[Electric Monk]

74. You do know what the words "applied for" and "age" mean, right? nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

75. Huh. Seems to be a pattern. I see an OP with some possible negative about Sanders, and big_dog

turns out to be the poster. Must be a coincidence...

[progree]

76. This is very bad. When one declares oneself a conscientious objector, one is declaring

oneself opposed to all wars, not just certain unjust or unpopular wars. And yet a commander-in-chief has to be willing to send American troops into combat -- whether or not you or I agree, I'm sure the vast majority of the American electorate feels that way.

[WDIM]

108. No they do not have to willing to send our troops to die.

Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus, all the greatest leaders and teachers taught non-violence.

Wars of aggression brought on by the Bush regime are war crimes and crimes against humanity.

The Vietnam war was a war crime and a crime against humanity. Sanders was right not to fight.

[progree]

162. You and I might agree, but the vast majority of the electorate doesn't

agree that we should never fight in any war -- e.g. WWII -- no matter what the cause is or what is at stake.

My point was/is that a conscientious objector is claiming they believe against fighting in any war -- in most cases, including apparently Bernie's -- to get out of fighting a war that others are forced to fight who don't make dishonest claims.

I looked into getting C.O. status during the Vietnam War, so I know what I'm talking about.

As for Martin Luther King, Jesus, etc. -- they were not CIC's of countries being attacked/invaded. One can preach non-violence and pour forth wonderfully progressive wonderful-sounding rhetoric until one is blue in the face, but it won't win any general elections, or defend from attack from those who feel otherwise.

[asiliveandbreathe]

77. Good for Bernie - there is a chapter in

Rachel Maddow's book - "DRIFT" - an excerpt "The Military marketers had started retooling their sales pitch when the UNSPOOLING Vietnam disaster had convinced politicians the time had come to end the draft". The Army brass had to get people to VOLUNTEER for military service, and they found themselves thrown into the business of devising new ways to improve the sagging public image..." - recruiters started meeting in the homes of prospects...this was the John Travolta ad and the romancing of our young men - see"you too can have a trip to Hawaii"...

BS to all of it....2 brothers served in Vietnam, one enlisted AF - one drafted Army - they are okay - and they both agree - Vietnam was a disaster...

Be well all....we still have neocons out there..and many from the bush/cheezy era are advising the jebster... but then, you knew that...

[shawn703]

84. This matters because he would likely be facing someone with military experience in the general.

Oh wait...

[still_one]

88. Actually, the only reason Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait was because April Glaspie, under the bush

administration assured the Iraqi government that the U.S. would not interfere if Iraq invaded Kuwait to take back oil wells that they believed were in their realm. The ambassador responded that it was a local affair, and the U.S. would not get involved.

[felix_numinous]

91. Standing strong against the Military industrial complex is far braver than going along with it

-as we all know the risks. This elephant in the room has conditioned Americans by using the terrorism of violence against all our peaceful leaders since JFK, MLK and Wellstone, or character assassinated like Carter was during the Iranian crisis, or Kucinich was while running for president.

The Peace Movement is made up of BRAVE people who STAND UP against the racist sociopathic conditioning to offer creative cooperative AND SAFER solutions for everyone. It takes brass balls we all have to refuse to fight each other and face down a militarized police. It takes bravery for two Black women to face Presidential candidates, and to have to live being scapegoated by this sickness infecting our country. And I have high respect for anyone who stood up against the Viet Nam War. I have respect also for young people who decide to serve in the military and police--it is these institutions that have grown corrupt, whose missions have crept steadily towards becoming the very terrorist they claim to be against.

I myself am proud of everyone standing against the rampant out of control militarized over-culture in its many forms.

We are all tired of being lied to. With the Earth changes upon us, the massive extinction of so much life, we don't have any more time left--there is so much work to do, so much pollution to clean up, as well as corruption to clean up.

[cascadiance]

119. When will Hillary or Republicans propose a War tax on millionaires like he has?!

http://www.rt.com/usa/243405-bernie-sanders-slams-gop-budget/

That's a specific example of taking the military industrial complex HEAD ON, which just about every other presidential candidate will avoid! If we want to stop unnecessary wars and their destruction, Bernie's our man!

[felix_numinous]

137. Great link!

and I think we need to dispel the myth and fairy tale that ONE PERSON can save this country--reformation takes great numbers from all walks of life. Our representatives need us to have their backs as much as we need their voice--it is this relationship that has become interfered and distorted by the alphabet soup agencies and monied interests.

Without our support, we have essentially just thrown one person to the wolves! We have been conditioned to remain in a perpetually juvenile arrested stage of development which makes us ripe for a takeover by a charasmatic (those with trained eyes can see the phenomena of Trump as evidence of this!) so a vital part of this social movement (like OWS) must be the sheer pervasiveness of it.

Excuse me I am charged up today, and long winded!!

[Maedhros]

103. Good for him!

Refusing to take part in a needless war is a badge of honor in my book.

[WDIM]

104. Good for him! He was on the correct side of history again.

We need leaders that are anti-war.
Every soldier should refuse to fight unjustified wars like Vietnam and like Iraq.

Sanders record for being on the right side of history is pretty impressive.

[left-of-center2012]

105. Uh ........

Who cares, except the Bernie haters?

[left-of-center2012]

107. Did Hillary serve in the military?

I know women weren't drafted but, maybe she volunteered.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

115. of course not.

But she was more than willing to send other people's sons and daughters to die in Iraq.


Funny how Clinton supporters are trying to twist being anti war as "bad". Just helps to prove that Hillary and her supporters want more war not less.

[Maedhros]

203. It's not that they "want more war"

It's that war, in their triangulating universe, is only a bad thing when the other guy does it and it can be used against them.

For example the bombing of Libya was every bit as dishonest, ill-conceived and justified by lies as was Bush's invasion of Iraq, but it was our side that did it, therefore it was a good thing.

In the present context, if being a war-loving uber-patriot helps Hillary, then by God they will be war-loving uber-patriots. At some point a Republican will bomb a country back into the Stone Age and then they will go back to being peaceniks.

[closeupready]

141. She was a Republican Goldwater girl at that time. So, that was better.

[left-of-center2012]

149. She was a Republican Goldwater girl

I remember the bottles of "Gold water" :
"Goldwater’s name gave inspiration to a new soda, just in time for the election.
Introducing GOLDWATER.
Apparently, it tasted something like the soft drink Squirt, a lemon-lime mix."
(I always thought it was orange soda)



https://goldwater1964items.wordpress.com/

[daleo]

198. Gold water

It brings up a certain image...

[LiberalArkie]

113. A Conscientious Objector status means that a person could still be drafted unlike a draft deferment.

Cheney, Limbaugh, Rumsfeld all skipped out of the draft. Someone who was C.O. and got drafted usually became an unarmed medic. You know the ones without weapons and took care of the wounded and carried a hell of a backpack.

[Turbineguy]

123. Conciencious Objector?

Only draft dodgers are permitted to be President. If they are republicans.

Those are the rules.

[ananda]

124. I think a pacifist is exactly what we need now!

..

[Enthusiast]

126. We could sure use a president that sees military action as a last resort.

Go, Bernie!

Much of what is wrong in this nation can be attributed to an out of control military industrial/intelligence apparatus.

[Jeroen]

129. Answer: by a conscientious majority n/t

[Enthusiast]

134. Completely unrecommended.

[Eleanors38]

135. First, gunz. Then black insensitivity. Then Latino insensitivity. Now draft dodging.

There's a pattern, here: What ever wad sticks on the wall.

[closeupready]

138. Any Heart fans here? You know, "Barracuda"? This weekend, on cable,

(Palladium or one of those music cable channels) they showed footage from Heart's concert reviving their first album, "Dreamboat Annie" in 2007.

(I saw them in concert back about then at, interestingly, Trump Plaza in Atlantic City. How funny it is that our society isn't quite as big as we like to think it is, and paths cross in the most interesting ways, over time. But I digress...)

As a prelude to the concert footage, they interviewed Ann and Nancy Wilson - their formative years as sisters, how Heart got started, and turns out, as a teenager, Ann dated a Vietnam draft dodger from Seattle who'd fled to Vancouver. Well, her father had been a veteran either of WWII or the Korean War, and he wasn't aware of all that until Ann told him over the phone one day. A year or so later, they had dinner with him, and Ann claimed that her father did not disapprove of his dodging the draft, and she went on to say that her father stated he'd have maybe done the same thing himself.

Which is a long-winded way of saying, even war heroes from America's "Greatest Generation" opposed the Vietnam War, and some even supported those who dodged the draft. Bernie, rather than dodge it with anal cysts and 'other priorities', stood up and stood behind his beliefs. You have to respect that.

K&R

[closeupready]

139. And Hillary served...? Wasn't she a Republican Goldwater girl at the time?

?

[City Lights]

140. Which presidential candidates served in the Vietnam War?

How many got deferments for one thing or another?

Bernie stuck to his principles. Good for him!

[Warren Stupidity]

145. Then I like him even more.

[Doctor_J]

150. And?

How many of the current candidates saw combat?

[4bucksagallon]

152. As a Vietnam conbat veteran I can say this doesn't bother me.

To apply for and be denied CO status tells me something about Bernie. He thought Nam was an immoral war but couldn't say that all wars are immoral since he voted to go into Afghanistan. I like that he stood by his convictions though denied CO status. The ones I have always had issues with are the chicken hawks that refused to fight and yet stood on the sidelines and cheered for war. Quayle, Bush, Romney, Cheney, Limbaugh, Trump, Delay and the majority of the T'baggers, and NeoCON's. I think if we are going to have never ending war's there should be a draft.

[Lint Head]

155. So he did it legally as opposed to craping in his pants

like the cowardly Nugent.

[WhoWoodaKnew]

157. Most people here will like this. Many other voters won't. You can't get elected on message boards.

[tavernier]

158. Good for him!!!

I have no doubt that he would be a great military president based on his convictions as to which wars are ours to fight.

[hrmjustin]

160. The voters can make their own opinions but I think this won't be a major issue.

[valerief]

165. Bill Clinton dodged Vietnam, too.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/felon.asp

[joanbarnes]

168. Makes me love him even more. G.W. Bush=Deserter in Chief.

Clinton and Obama did not serve in Military either.

[MrMickeysMom]

171. If you think about the question, the answer becomes crystal clear...

It matches everything Bernie Sanders has said about the role of a standing army and protection from enemies, foreign and domestic.

Reading the history of the Vietnamese war, we were lied into combat after a president who took bold steps to get us out was assassinated. I think it's brave to do the right thing, rather than, say, graduate with a gentleman's "C" and have your rich daddy support you where you can keep far away from combat, cheating you way through the military… Or, how about getting 5 deferments, only to become a war criminal and trade blood for oil with mercenary groups murdering Iraqis after standing down military action after the world trade center was hit.

I'm not even getting to Bill Clinton, am I? Who's honest about how this nation should stop using our military? Who's honest about how every veteran should be treated? What are the percentage of homeless living under bridges who are post Vietnam vets?

It's pretty clear that honesty has escaped your assessment of his background and the ability to lead in what falls under the criteria of military intervention, including the legal declaration of how war should commence.

[treestar]

177. nothing wrong with it, it was there to be applied for

better than dodging.

It has nothing to do with being CIC - obviously one needs no military experience to do it.

[Smarmie Doofus]

180. And this is supposed to be a *bad* thing?

Ayayaya.

Give me strength.

[INdemo]

182. They did the same thing with Bill Clinton when he was running in 1992

and they didn't let up any trying to dig up what they thought were negatives.(I cleaned it up there)
They tried to make an issue about him attending college in a foreign country (Oxford) while holding a student deferment.
They tried to make an issue about his trip to Russia when he worked for Ark. Sen. Fulbright and called it a war zone.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/candidates/democrat/clinton/skeletons/draft.shtml


Hillary was involved in the Vietnam War protests but she worked behind the scenes.
So I'm curious does this disqualify her from being commander-in-chief?

Obvious other campaigns are getting nervous about Bernie but they will have to do better than the CO issue.


The facts are a person with a CO status are eligible for other assignments but just not on the battlefield.

[merrily]

183. Him and many others. Does the name Muhammed Ali ring a bell?

Then, there were those who went to Canada. Or went AWOL, like President Bush, for example.

Or--and someone told me he did this--knocked up his wife every time the number of kids necessary to get a deferment increased. Or so he said. I never checked the changes in the law because I figured he wouldn't be lying about something that made him sound the way that story made him sound. And, while he was telling me that, his friend told me he would not get a plantar's wart on the bottom of his foot removed until he was safe from the draft. Preferred to walk with a cane for years.

If this and a 45 year old essay is the worst oppo research has come up with so far, I am LMAO.

[StandingInLeftField]

186. WOOF, WOOF, WOOF, WOOF, woof, woof, woof,......

Squirrel!

Oh, and I admire Bernie even more knowing this!

[tabasco]

189. As an infantry combat vet with two combat tours...

I say good for Bernie. There is no moral obligation to take part in an immoral, unjustified war. He was helping to stop the war and get our troops out of there. Bernie showed good judgment by opposing an unjustified war.

OTOH, anyone who is gung-ho for war and avoided military service, republican or democrat, can rightly be condemned for hypocrisy and cowardice.

[Alice500]

192. +1. nt

[Alice500]

193. It takes courage to be a conscientious objector.

I admire Mr. Sanders for seeking this status during that immoral and illegal War.

[onenote]

209. Yes it does. But you had to be opposed to more than a specific war

I got my CO during the Vietnam War and the standard was not merely that you had moral/religious objections to a particular war, but to war in general. Of course, how draft boards applied that standard varied, and COs were much easier to obtain as the war's unpopularity grew.

[Freddie Stubbs]

195. It would be interesting to hear him explain why he is no longer a conscientious objector

[mainer]

202. He objected to the war. He refused to go. Completely consistent.

I don't see the problem.

[JonLP24]

207. This reaffirms my trust in Bernie Sanders even more

Wars or the obvious trend since the McKinley administration and especially so since the Eisenhower administration is the goal is apparently military control of globalization I'm a conscientious object to current and all recent conflicts. Though I actually did serve in a recent war not in combat related MOS which was deliberate but didn't learn to later a 88M could a task or role in a convoy for instance (gun truck) to be in a position but thankfully just in a long haul supply unit so just drove but wouldn't change the experience to see and learn for myself how much more worse than that I thought (all the contractors and slave labor -- not like old wars pictured in movies where the military does everything) plus the experiences of seeing at-least Kuwait & Iraq.

I'm not sure if Bernie alone could "clean house" since the war chest has expanded to the point it is now but I have a strong belief the economic ethics he shows for domestic policies would carry over to the foreign policy area would be a profound change that I'm losing hope of ever seeing. He feels like our nation's last hope and I would hope the nation would see that but I don't have my hopes up.