Sen. Boxer fires back at Sanders aide: 'He wasn't there'

[riversedge]

Source: The Hill




May 25, 2016, 12:27 pm
Sen. Boxer fires back at Sanders aide: 'He wasn't there'

By Rebecca Savransky

..................................

"We need to be working to win this election to unify, not go back and pick fights with one another, and I'm not picking a fight with him. He wasn't there."

....................

Boxer defended her actions during the convention, saying the situation was "extremely intimidating" and "frightening," with Sanders supporters upset over how the process was being run.

"Frankly they were so close to me, I don't know what they could have done," Boxer said.

........................

Boxer admitted she blew kisses at the crowd, but said it was after security had escorted her off the stage.

"I was heading to the exit and they were following me with more of these vile comments. I used a sense of humor and I blew them kisses," she said......


Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/281094-california-senator-defends-clinton-for-declining-debate

---

It was stupid and shameful of Weaver to demean B. Boxer.

[Renew Deal]

1. Boxer is a liberal icon and her attackers are here today gone tomorrow.

[ffr]

21. Well said! Always understand who you're disrespecting

before going down that road. We're all on the same team and she's been in the trenches for decades through thick and thin. She's got backbone.

[Baobab]

128. The 3 Drama Queens- arrgh

This is all is getting really old. the country needs leadership and we're getting spin attacks, poutrage, ad so on.

I have zero confidence in these people at this point. Less than zero.

[Loki]

229. Name calling

only damages the name caller. Look in the mirror.

[Baobab]

231. I have a clean conscience. I dont lie to sick people about health care.

think about that.

[ReRe]

141. I've always liked Barbara Boxer...

... down thru the years, back when we used to have an operating Congressional body up there. But just as she is exiting the big stage, she shivers in fear at a Nevada State Democratic convention in response to mere heckling, calling the audience "violent!" That she was afraid. Afraid? Afraid? Really????? Sorry, ffr, I don't see where you get "backbone" to describe BB of late.

[ffr]

156. You're entitled to your opinion

Hopefully I don't get banned again for mentioning that. Seems neutral enough.

[ReRe]

159. You're entitled to yours too...

... and I hope you don't get banned for saying something so incidental.

[MADem]

166. +1,000,000! And the generation that is appalled? They VOTE. nt

[Hekate]

172. Hell yes we do vote. We know how it's done, and we show up.

If the people who shout b**** c*** and "should be publicly hung" and "I know where your grandchild goes to school" don't intend for the recipients to feel threatened -- maybe they shouldn't be making threats.

Mocking women who are defiant in the face of threats but then say later they were in fact afraid -- that's the behavior of ABUSERS. F*** that S*** (as long as I am using asterisks to bleep out the unacceptable b-word and c-word )

WE VOTE. HELL YES WE DO.

[MADem]

173. +1,000,000! nt

[Tumbulu]

180. Yes we do, and I switched from Bernie to Hillary over this for the CA Primary

His views were closer to mine politically, and I was so happy to hear the liberal points made so clearly.

BUT oh my, this misogyny is way over the top so very clear and blatant, and I have switched now.

And it feels quite truly abusive. Which is why I am surprised that it took me this long to see it.

[Pauldg47]

194. You were always Hillary and now your going to vote for a person under investigation? No sense at all

[chwaliszewski]

215. ^^^ Truth, right there ^^^

[sulphurdunn]

228. Huh?

A couple of alleged Bernie Sanders supporters were rude to a woman, so you're switching your vote because that is more revealing than the candidate's history and lifetime of policy positions? I guess I shouldn't, but I actually find that hard to believe.

[ReRe]

175. Not a generational thing

I'm a 67 year old female. Upstanding citizen. Clean record down the line, vote in every election. What else you want to know? And I am an authentic Democrat, not a WJC-HRC DLC Third Way, NewDemocrat. I am a staunch Democratic Bernie supporter, but I don't think I'm as bad as you are making me out to be.

I'm sorry if I seem so harsh. I've lived right here in the same country as you all my life (I'm assuming you were born and raised here in the US too.) But I came from a long line of strong-willed women.

I invite you to block me from your sight.

To each their own... Peace.

[Tumbulu]

181. Well, how can you think that texting threats and screaming those things is OK then?

And how is it that you are questioning BB's reactions? And claiming that she has no backbone?

I am in CA, and I have voted liberal dem my entire life. I come from a long line of very strong women, but our strength is not from screaming slurs at people or threatening them. Or ignoring bullying or abuse, but by nipping those behaviors in the bud. And prosecuting them. I am strong supporter of Kamala Harris for this reason. Voted for Kucinich, and even Jesse Jackson.

But screaming threats at people? You think this is OK? If you do, I suppose that it is your right, but I sure do not. And to me it seems totally clear that strong misogyny is at work here.

What do you think of this article?

http://www.curvemag.com/Curve-Magazine/Web-Articles-2016/Misogyny-Rules-The-2016-Election-1213/

[ReRe]

185. YOU are wayyyy too sensitive

Are you saying I am texting threats? I am screaming "those things"? Screaming what things?

Barbara Boxer played a role in the charade that was the Nevada Democratic Convention. That is a fact.

What do I think of that article? It was absolutely disgusting to me, that's what I think about it. I don't have a sexist bone in my body. And there's one thing I will never do, and that is lie, cheat, steal, or act a role for any political candidate. Actually, you can take your kind of politics and flucsh it down the commode. All it does is divide everyone.

But one thing is for sure. I am a Democrat for Bernie Sanders. And I'm hoping, praying and donating what I can right up till the last minute of this Primary campaign. You can call me whatever you want. One thing I'm NOT is thin-skinned. So have at it. Just remember: We're all Democrats.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017350056

https://secure.actblue.com/contribute/page/duforbernie

http://www.BernieSanders.com

[LibraLiz1973]

218. Was she asking for it?

"Barbara Boxer played a role in the charade that was the Nevada Democratic Convention. That is a fact. "

Bernie's supporters acted like maniacs. He should man up and apologize. She "played a role". Of course SHE did. It's ALWAYS the woman's fault, don't ya know?

[ReRe]

238. Barbara could have...

... come out on that stage and been a peace seeker. She could have said something to bring the sides together, to calm the delegates. But she didn't.

..."of course she played a role. It's always the woman's fault, don't ya know?" That is so juvenile, like on a playground. You should have added "nanny-nanny-pooh-pooh" somewhere in the rant for real effect. I do not see everything in life through sexist eyes. Sometimes sexism does exist, and I'd be first in line against it. But this instance was NOT one of those.

[Silver_Witch]

210. Berniedid not yell at any one so you are punishing him because????

I am 60 years old too. And after years on the planet understand that supporters and demonstrators can get wound up. what does that have to do with Bernie???

I support Boxer however she started the broohaha by heckling the court and mocking them. If she was afraid with all her government paid for security right next to her then something is wrong with her.

Wears tough woman and have been through more name calling. This is total over action.

[lakeguy]

219. politicians are exposed to that kind of stuff all.the.time

they are just using this info now to create a story. one which supporters of HRC will easily believe as a condition of their support and that's exactly why they are doing it. they've been trying to create these narratives all season long. first he's a sexist (talks bad to his wife), then he's a racist (AAs don't like him), then he's a liar (he was not in that photo), the health care thing (oh wait, he was in THAT photo!), and so on. then after all those things are proven false, they go after the supporters. EXACTLY like HRC and surrogates did in 2008. it's the same thing, over and over. all these threads pushing yet another manufactured lie that has already unraveled. it just goes to show one of the great flaws with humans in general i think. the inability to think logically when emotions are involved. that and the feeling that one must be on the winning side.

the people at that convention had a right to be angry. if it went the other way the HRC supporters would have done the exact same thing and i would guess they would be non-violent, yet verbal as well. i would have totally expected that. not condoned it, but understood the reason for the anger and the reactions.

and the article you linked is just another piece of rhetoric that repeats many of the lies i pointed out above (yes, i actually read it. well most of it). like i said, too many people easily fall for narratives created to bring a candidate down when emotions are involved. no different than what they did to Kerry in 04. just sad that both sides do it now.

[2banon]

192. Me too! What you said!

Well I'm only 65 1/2 not quite as OLD as you.

Kindred Spirits I think...

Women Warriors for Peace and Justice and Equality, here.

Struggling for all of it for over 50 years.

Boxer is one of my Senators, I've voted for her I think since '92 if memory serves. Had a fair amount of respect for her usually, but what she did Saturday was absolutely contemptible. It's all on video. She was not afraid. she was engaged in full bore baiting among other things.

There's a posh position waiting for her post retirement i suspect..

ugh.

[AlbertCat]

187. He now represents the misogynist wing of the liberals.

Bernie Sanders yelled at Barbara Boxer?

The link here takes one to Boxer unwisely defending Hillary's cowardice and snubbing of CA.... but nothing about anyone yelling awful things at her.

So it musta been Bernie himself if he now represents the misogynist wing..... and many other incidents of misogyny from him as well.



Or did one aid yell at one known female democrat....
If that's the misogynist wing then we're doing great! One guy! at one woman!


Perhaps just running against a woman is misogynist!

[Baobab]

232. Three drama queens is putting it nicely

The lying they are doing is not acceptable behavior.

The Three Drama Queens should resign now.

[wallyworld2]

193. So were

Howard Dean and John Lewis
Hillary seems to bring out the worst in 'liberals'

[scottie55]

196. Howard Dean Is Not A Liberal

He is a well paid lobbyist.

Liberal lobbyists are volunteers.

[wallyworld2]

211. remember

your tone

[wallyworld2]

213. well of course

He is now
and Saint Barbra will be one too, the second her term ends
and by the sound of it she'll be a very well paid one too
because of that liberal tag
I'm sure she'll blow you kisses, just like she did in Nevada on her way out.

[left-of-center2012]

2. "I'm not picking a fight with him"

Then throw a few more kisses and move on.

[bjobotts]

19. So why is this still being milked.Hows the physical assault charge against Clinton supporter going

when a Bernie supporter got smacked in the face. See what I mean. Stop posting this crap if you expect people to unify

[left-of-center2012]

36. I said, move on n/t

[leftynyc]

148. When was the election

that gave you the say over who and who is not a liberal? I don't know ANY republicans that are pro choice, pro gay rights - do you?

[left-of-center2012]

160. "Why are you supporting Hillary"

I just voted for Bernie (mail ballot) a couple days ago for our N.M. primary (June 7).

[leftynyc]

150. Because only YOU get to decide

who is liberal? Don't even bother whining about my screen name - I couldn't possibly care less what you think about it. Just looking forward to June 7 - the air around here will be much cleaner.

[billhicks76]

154. Wait...LeftOfCenter2012 Is You Also???

Because thats who I was responding to.

[leftynyc]

220. I'm quite capable of following a thread

Since you were whining about someone who had left in their name that wasn't "pure" enough for you, I was letting you know that kind of bullshit wont even touch me as I don't give a crap.

[MaeScott]

122. Wendell Pierce actually had charges for assault against a female Sanders supporter..crickets

[hopemountain]

201. substantiate, please.

is there a paper trail i can read? otherwise, it is a rumor.

[riversedge]

132. You forget that was Weaver who opened the flames again a few days ago. Read the OP

[BeyondGeography]

3. Still messing with Boxer over this as the CA primary approaches

Dumb.

[roguevalley]

73. she shouldn't have been there on stage. That was for Nevada. She should go home and do her job for

california. She's RELATED to HRC so no wonder.

[SharonClark]

76. Guess that Nina Turner have stayed home, too.

[LovingA2andMI]

145. Last Time We Checked...

Nina Turner is not an Elected Official at this point, accountable for just Representing the People of Ohio. She is a former Elected Official and Surrogate for the Bernie Sanders Campaign. So, was The Honorable Nina Turner in the Right Place at the Nevada Convention for Bernie, sure.

Barbara Boxer, representing the people of California as a sitting Senator -- BEFORE California has voted in the Democratic Primary? What about her? Probably not so much.

[Hekate]

86. So DEMOCRATS should not travel to help DEMOCRATS. That's a new one on me.

I'll keep that in mind next time someone puts out a call for volunteers from other states to come help a DEMOCRATIC candidate. Ya learn something new every single day. Yup. It stops at the borders of each state. So all you Sanders supporters, stay in your own state, you hear?

[SusanCalvin]

182. You appear to be referring to the general. This is still a primary. nt

[Hekate]

197. La-de-dah. I was a Deaniac. One of my cohorts here in California went out to freezing IOWA to help

Yeah, out there in the snows of January, and since we live in So Cal she probably had to borrow all the appropriate clothing. So she was actually there in the room when he gave his Dean Scream that the media played over 600 times to wreck his campaign -- which, incidentally, was engineered with some kind of pinpoint sound-boom that filtered out all the rest of the noise in the room, which was supersonic.

That was also a primary campaign. You may recall he never made it to the nomination.

DEMOCRATS travel to help out DEMOCRATS. Why is that such a hard concept?

[SusanCalvin]

225. I stopped reading after "la-de-dah."..... nnt

[all american girl]

222. She was there to speak for Hillary, just as Nina Turner was there to speak for Bernie

So I guess you had a problem with Nina Turner being there.

[CrowCityDem]

4. Weaver telling a woman how she really felt. That's the Bernie campaign, for ya.

[Dawgs]

8. Boxer got caught lying.

Deal with it.

[Hekate]

25. Really? Why don't you mansplain to me how it feels to be a 75 y.o. WOMAN in front of a mob?

The Bros (can I call them Bros now?) seem to specialize in screaming c*** b**** and other lovely things at women old enough to be their grandma.

Then mocking them for being angry about it and afraid.

Look at the list: Dolores Huerta, Latina labor rights icon. Barbara Boxer, pioneering outspoken feminist lawmaker. Roberta Lange, the volunteer (unpaid) head of the Dems in Nevada. And I am quite sure this is an incomplete list of DEMOCRATIC WOMEN who have incurred such wrath.

I'll bet their mamas would be so proud if they knew.

JURY: There is a record by now -- emails, tweets, videos, voicemails. I'm sure the Bros are just a teeny tiny minority of the goodhearted progressives following Bernie Sanders, and if only he knew about them he would call them to task.

[trueblue2007]

43. those BERNIE SUPPORTERS should be ashamed of themselves for harrassing women.

reminds me of the Trump supporters beating up the people at his rallies and town halls !!!
This violence has got to stop. what has gotten into people???

[Hekate]

57. The language of "revolution", rage, and resentment is in itself violent.

A certain subset will always take it to the next level.

[840high]

170. Did you forget the Clinton

supporter who beat up a woman Bernie supporter?

[Hekate]

176. Yeah I know -- so MANY of them with their bellowing obscenities and voicemail threats....

Oh wait -- that's Bernie's mobs.

As for the sad sack to whom you refer: he's one guy, and the the law needs to deal with him appropriately. Has anyone excused his behavior or said otherwise? Has anyone excused him by saying he did it out of "passion" the way Bernie excused the Nevada crap?

No?

No.

[Dawgs]

98. Non of that garbage you wrote changes the fact that she's a liar.

Sorry.

[Hekate]

111. Sulky response.

[Duval]

134. May be sulky, but true.

Enough of this crap. Let's move on.

[Hekate]

179. Hey, I'm not moving on, except to GOTV the way my generation of women does. WE SHOW UP.

And Barbara Boxer is still my Senator, until Kamala Devi Harris is sworn in.

[SunSeeker]

113. You don't know what Boxer was feeling when confronted by a vulgarity-screaming mob.

Calling Barbara Boxer a liar says a lot about you though.

[Hekate]

177. Sure does.

Can't even mansplain at length.

[CrowCityDem]

115. And you know how she felt how exactly?

[Tumbulu]

167. Beautifully said!

Thanks!

[Hekate]

178. You're welcome.

[JohnnyRingo]

216. The Bernie Bus runs a regular route through here these days.

Every - and I mean every - person who doesn't worship at the Church of the Septarian Senator gets thrown under the wheels.

Tomorrow Boxer will be the new crowned queen of the oligarchy.

[LovingA2andMI]

52. And Flipping The Finger...

But She Was Supposedly "In Fear Of Her Life".

[Hekate]

64. She was defiant. I'm sure a little "bird" wouldn't scare guys who scream c*** and b****

....at women who stand up to them.


JURY: "Flipping the bird" is the other common phrase for "middle finger."

[Scout]

163. it was the wrong finger in the photo i saw....

don't suppose you have a photo with the actual middle finger, huh?

because you know i bet she does that all the time and I'd really like to see the shot.

[SharonClark]

78. No, she wasn't lying.

[riversedge]

100. NOPE. snope says it was Sanders supporters who were lying.

[Dawgs]

102. The snopes conclusion is not what I'm talking about.

She clearly was not in fear of her safety from the video. I feel sorry for anyone that feels otherwise.

[riversedge]

105. And you know what another feels? No you do not and you look foolish saying so.

[Dawgs]

106. Like I said. I feel sorry for you. n/t

[MaeScott]

123. Repeat...Boxer. Got. Caught. Lying. Clear enough?

[LovingA2andMI]

146. Clear....

As a Bird Call, Clear.

[riversedge]

144. Weaver said she was lying ha ha.

[Chakab]

12. I see that we've updated the definition of "sexism" for the umpteenth time. Now it's inappropriate

to point out that a person's documented actions were totally contradictory to claims that they've made about their emotional state at the time that said actions occurred if said person happens to be a woman.

Thanks for the addendum to the list of things that you can't say to or about women especially if said women support Hillary Clinton.

[CrowCityDem]

23. Actions? He told her she didn't feel how she said she felt. Yes, that is f'n sexist.

[retrowire]

53. no. its rude. but not sexist.

If she were being told she only felt that way because of her gender, then bam, sexist.

But as it is, this was a person telling another person how they felt. Which is just assertive and rude.

Would it be sexist if a man told another man how they actually felt? No.

Would it be sexist if a woman told a man how they actually felt? No.

But if that woman said, "oh you only feel that way because of testosterone or whatever" then it's sexist.

Just like Trump saying Megyn only felt that way because she must be bleeding from where ever, THAT is sexist.

Your definition of what sexism is, is inaccurate and it's just as ignorant as calling a white person racist for having a simple argument with a black person about who actually got the parking space. Oh they're of different races! Doesn't matter, their disagreement had nothing to do with it. They're simply people arguing.

You accusing things like this as sexist is asinine and it minimizes all the important things feminists are actually fighting for. You want to call sexism on that? Way to make us feminists look out of our minds. If the content is not rooted in sexism or have anything to do with gender, then it isn't sexist in the least.

You could try to make the argument that the guy is sexist, but again, that's just throwing labels on people without any proof if the content of the offending act had nothing to do with gender.

Women are not weak, they don't need the victim card played so lightly anytime they are confronted by a man. So until you see actual gender entrenched content, it's not sexist.

[Chakab]

62. It's not rude to call bullshit on somebody who's clearly lying especially when said liar

is a seasoned politician who's dealt with real smears in the past.

[retrowire]

68. i agree with that much

But I think it's always a little rude to tell someone how they really feel.

She is a liar and deserves to be called out on that.

But we should even be cordial and professional with liars.

[passiveporcupine]

89. I am not surprised that she was "nervous"

or even a little frightened by how the crowd reacted to her poor decision to be condescending to them, and to attempt to marginalize their anger. I think she was feeling guilty too, because she knew she triggered it. And then she got snotty and blew kisses and wagged her finger at them and said "shame on you". That can be a result of "prior fear" and "relief" because she was surrounded by protection at that moment. But it was also a crappy decision. She should accept responsibility for her actions, but she won't.

But her comment in this "retort" is funny.

"Frankly they were so close to me, I don't know what they could have done," Boxer said.

Yeah, Barbara, they might have hugged you.

Bernie supporters are not physically violent. They had a right to be pissed about what was going on at that convention...and no, it wasn't about a couple of delegates, it was about being shut out of the process and run over by the chair. When people are oppressed, they get mad...and she should have recognized that and tried to calm them down, but instead acted like a little old nanny talking to her "kids".

She insulted the crowd and they reacted to that insult. If she can't handle that, then maybe she's in the wrong business, or she's getting too old for it.

[arikara]

114. Exactly

This response deserves its own thread.

[LovingA2andMI]

147. THIS!!! ^^^^

[CrowCityDem]

155. Is anger all Bernie fans have? Being angry doesn't mean you get to act like a jerk.

[CrowCityDem]

116. And you know how she felt how exactly?

[Chakab]

58. She's on tape taunting the crowd at the same time that she claims that she was "in fear of

her life."

It's obvious to everybody with a brain that she's lying to smear Sanders supporters in order to put pressure on Bernie to drop out of the race.

That's not "sexism." It's reality.

BTW LOL @ the people who are claiming that it's Sanders who's dividing the party while this smear campaign directed at him and his supporters has been going on for over a year.

[closeupready]

28. Correct. Even making that correction is SEXISM.

(AND my observation of same, probably.)

[retrowire]

56. see post 53. nt

[closeupready]

91. I agree with your post, and the sub-discussion there.

Thanks.

[Hekate]

66. Try to keep up. It's not that hard.

[Skwmom]

71. To call a woman on a lie is sexism.

[bjobotts]

31. What a stupid demeaning comment.You don't know The Bernie campaign you attack.Like saying

the Clinton campaign is represented by that guy who assaulted that Bernie supporter and is charged with felony assault..It's petty and wrong to make such assumptions (but that's the Clinton campaign for ya') lol.

[pangaia]

5. It was stupid and shameful of Boxer to ridicule and insult people.

Blowing kisses, my ass..

[Hekate]

33. What would have liked her to do? Cower down in the fetal position?

[pangaia]

74. She insulted and ridiculed Bernie supporters.

They got pissed.
She insulted and ridiculed them again.

[AzDar]

6. Didn't she flip them off?

[Arkansas Granny]

14. I've seen several reports of that and I've seen several reports that she was shaking her finger.

The picture was dark, it's hard to tell.

If she did use rude gestures, I wouldn't condone it, but I also can't give a pass to the people who were yelling and rushing the podium. This was hardly a one sided incident.

[peace13]

188. If you zoom in you will see that sadly, yes it is the finger. Check the face out too.

Until watching that video of Boxer speaking followed by the rude gestures I respected her as a committed Dem. She lost it in NE and until she backs off and regroups I don't see her regaining anyone's confidence. It was a very sad moment for me.

To be clear, this is about Barbara and nothing to do with the Sanders campaign people.

[Hekate]

198. Nope, wrong again.

Our Senator hasn't lost any of the confidence of Californians. And DEMOCRATS know she will show up to help out their campaigns, just as she always has.

We'd elect her again if she weren't retiring. But never fear, we'll send Kamala Devi Harris in her place, and you might be interested to know that Elizabeth Warren's statement of support features prominently in Kamala's latest tv ad.

[peace13]

230. Excuse me...she's sounds like a perfect fit for you.

You may have loved her in NE. Thank goodness you were not in Bernie's camp. You would not have taken it well. She flipped off people, lost her temper on stage and riled the audience up instead of calming them down. That was a fail any way you look at it.

I have been a fan of her's for years but she lost control of herself out here. Without respect, we have nothing. Instead of apologizing she pulled a card no man would ever use. She was afraid? You and I know that Barbara is not afraid of anything. She is still demeaning woman with the afraid card over and over to the press. Give it up Babs, no one is buying it!

[TwilightZone]

16. Unless she has six fingers, no.

http://www.snopes.com/barbara-boxer-gave-bernie-sanders-supporters-the-finger/

[LovingA2andMI]

61. But she obviously could not see that a chair was not thrown...

http://www.snopes.com/did-sanders-supporters-throw-chairs-at-nevada-democratic-convention/

Neither could the MSM, Debbie Wasserman Schultz, Roberta Lange and the list goes on.

But the Honorable Nina Turner Corrected All That, Immediately After The Convention -- So That's All That Matters.

[Duval]

137. +! And enough said!

[shenmue]

120. You win the Internets

[Brother Buzz]

24. That's what some slick operators want you to believe

Stated to me as fact. I only tell it as I get it. I am willing to believe it. I can believe any thing. - Mark Twain

[riversedge]

27. Snopes said no, and Boxer said no Case closed.

[Hekate]

92. But-but-but- BERNIE has spent his entire career finger-wagging and shouting. I thought that was...

...considered authentic and stuff.

But then, he's a man so it's all okay.

Gods forbid a woman ever wag her finger and raise her voice. THAT's rude and inflammatory. And shrewish. Don't forget shrewish.



JURY: The post to which I am replying states "Finger wagging is considered rude and inflammatory, so it doesn't matter which. nt" I am responding in kind, using a partial quote.

[MADem]

171. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! BINGO!

When a MAN does it, it's a-ok. When a woman does it, it's "rude and inflammatory."

[hopemountain]

202. no, the finger wagging champion is hillary.

bernie raises his whole hand or palm - but will raise a finger upwards when he wants to make a point. however, hillary has terrible, terrible finger pointing habit. she points directly at her audience like a mother superior.

[Hekate]

204. Awwwwwww, it gives you a sad because you remember being scolded by women as a child.

JURY: Really? Bernie gets to flap his hand and point with every word he speaks, but Hillary "has terrible, terrible finger pointing habit. she points directly at her audience like a mother superior." I'm just hoping it's okay to point out the kind of schoolchild flashback that "mother superior" evokes.

[hopemountain]

208. so, you attack me? isn't this against TOS?

get a grip, hekate.

[liberal N proud]

7. He wasn't there - that was my first question

Second question:

If he wasn't there, how can he be qualified to make such judgment?

BAM!

[Dawgs]

9. Because there was video.

I guess Walter Scott wasn't really shot in the back because we weren't there, right?

[liberal N proud]

10. Apples and oranges again

[Dawgs]

11. Of course they're apples and oranges. That's not the point. n/t

[riversedge]

30. How can Weaver claim someone--anyone is not afraid?? Feelings are real!

[McCamy Taylor]

13. I feel sorry for Sanders. Lots of undemocratic people seem to have attached themselves to him

and he is the one who will suffer for it in the long run.

[Hekate]

174. I used to say that kind of thing, but no more. BS has had every opportunity to disavow them...

...and has failed to do so. After the Nevada debacle he even excused their behavior as coming from "passion."

This is hurting ALL Democrats.

[cloudythescribbler]

15. OP needs to add link for complete coverage of issue:

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/281217-boxer-to-sanders-aide-i-just-tried-to-diffuse-it-every

[riversedge]

20. Whow. Throwing her under the Sanders bus. Shame on you.

[jalan48]

29. Oh please, enough with the histrionics.

White privilege is white privilege-being a privileged white woman doesn't mean you get a pass.

[riversedge]

32. And therefore according to your logic: Weaver-and Sanders are privleged white males.

[jalan48]

38. Of course they are.

[trueblue2007]

81. person you are talking to is a sexist pigglet.

[bjobotts]

37. Isn't she married to an arms dealer?

[Brother Buzz]

50. You're thinking of the other senator from California

[Hekate]

41. "The masses"? Who, pray, are the masses?

[jalan48]

44. All those angry, scary people protesting and rioting over the current state of affairs.

[trueblue2007]

49. your comment is sickening.

privileged white woman my foot. she didn't ask for the color of her skin. she was born that way.

She worked her whole life to get to where she is today. you should be ashamed of your comment.

[Hekate]

199. "A harbinger of things to come." Sure, shouting slurs &threatening the lives of women who've worked

...their ENTIRE LIVES for the betterment of humanity -- including pipsqueaks who cannot be bothered to find out what it is they are admired for.

I am still outraged at the treatment Dolores Huerta received in front of a crowd of so-called progressive revolutionaries. And at the response I got here when I tried to school some of them on her history in the labor rights movement. Bet none of THEM ever had their ribs stove in by cops wielding billy clubs, much less founded a civil rights/labor rights movement that actually GOT THINGS DONE.

They jest at scars that never felt a wound.

[Cha]

18. Thank you, rivers... that's really smart of weaver to start a fight with the Senator from California

[Mark 750]

39. I was there

and it didn't seem like she was very frightened, but pissed. I would go with Weaver on this. The NV Dem party wanted to create the violent narrative, and Weaver is just dismissing it. The Hillary supporters are just being played on this - you know, it's called propaganda.

[Hekate]

46. Wouldn't you have been pissed off? What, precisely, was the reaction you were looking for? Tears?

I mean really lay it out for the rest of us, so all us older Democratic wimminz will know what the oh so righteous Bernie Sanders progressives want of us when we are on a stage in front of them.

[zalinda]

85. That's a bunch of bullshit

Boxer has been in front of a much rougher crowd and has held her own. Her age has nothing to do with it. At 67 and a woman, I would not have been frightened, and she wasn't either. She riled them up, she knew EXACTLY what she was doing unless she is losing her wits. The fact that she blew kisses and hoped that there would be a riot speaks volumes as does her giving the Bernie supporters the finger on her way out.

Yeah, she didn't get where she has by being a shrinking violet, or by not being able to sway a crowd.

Give me a break. Not all Hillary supporters were that dense that they didn't know what was going on, because they spoke up. But, I guess you forgot to see that little bit of video.

Z

[Hekate]

87. Yep, bullshit is certainly what this is.

JURY: I am responding to a post that has the subject line "That's a bunch of bullshit" unless it has been changed by the time you see it.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

142. So, she's allowed to be pissed, but the crowd isn't?

Making rude gestures at a crowd, and expects them to be happy about it?

[zalinda]

143. Of course she is, she's a Hillary supporter. Bernie supporters can't do anything right. eom

[Mark 750]

149. Pissed yes fear no

Yes, sure I would have been pissed. But she wasn’t frightened. That’s the point. Those same Metro police where there the whole time of the convention. I was stopped by one trying to enter with a slice of pizza. So security was every where. Also, Nina Turner, when speaking, was booed by the Hillary supporters, they just lack the vocal volume.

Your tone is quite dismissive. I did wonder what was going on in this country, back when I was in line voting for George McGovern. With the Village Voice Watergate article taped to my dorm room door, I thought “Come on people, how can you vote for this creep Nixon?” But, before I could vote, the radio station announced that Nixon was winning in a landslide and the girl ahead me in line was discussing how she liked kissing her pet rabbit( by the way, was voting for Nixon because her parents told her to).

I am not some righteous Bernie Sanders progressive, I am just looking for MY Democratic party and it isn’t the Clintons, I am sorry to say.

[R B Garr]

60. Yet it was the Paris Hotel who said they could not provide enough security for

the situation. There are videos of yellow-shirted personnel in the sectioned off area in front of the stage, and people shaking the metal crowd control barriers like they were going to knock them over and rush the stage. So was the Paris Hotel in on your conspiracy theory about the supposed DV Dem narrative?

So your obviously contrived statement, "NV Dem party wanted to create the violent narrative," is not supported by what video showed. Breaking down crowd control barriers put people's safety in jeopardy to intimidate them. That's a situation for the cops.

[Vincardog]

95. So your interpretation was that shaking "like they were going to knock them over and rush the stage"

That impression should over rule what everyone saw happen?

In fact the "NV Dem party wanted to create the violent narrative"
OBVIOUSLY they did they had the press "statements" at the ready and those statements were repeated word for word.

[R B Garr]

139. So your interpretation is that the Paris Hotel is in on the giant conspiracy to make

Sanders supporters look bad? Those Paris security guards were in on it, you betcha.

And BTW, making a "statement" after seeing people tearing down crowd control barriers isn't hard. lol, not hard at all. All you have to do is look at what is happening and comment on it. Not hard.

And the video shows what happened. You don't get to reinvent reality no matter how hard you want to force people to redefine reality for your victim/conspiracy "narrative".

[Vincardog]

157. You don't get to reinvent reality no matter how hard you want to force people to redefine reality

for your victim/conspiracy "narrative". The "hotel security" I saw in the video was NV State Police.
Your "Statement" that they tore down the barriers is fabricated BS.
Why not crawl back to under the Hillary group rock where your impressions will be validated?

[R B Garr]

158. No. It was hotel security. OBVIOUSLY local police were called in.

Are the hotel security and the local police in on this giant conspiracy to victimize Bernie and his supporters?

Everything is in the video, and they were starting to take the barriers down. It's in the videos. So you are the one fabricated BS by saying that it wasn't there. You don't get to edit a video with internet posts with what is right there for all to see.

If I told you to crawl back under a rock, I bet my post would be hidden. Must be nice to freely abuse people with no consequences, huh?

[Mark 750]

189. You don't know what you're talking about.

"Yet it was the Paris Hotel who said they could not provide enough security" - Sorry, Paris had enough security. It was ending because the NV Dem contract for security was ending at 10pm with the renting of the convention room(some say 7pm, others Midnight). They brought in the Metro cops for a photo shoot.

[R B Garr]

191. That's hilarious. There were endless threads about

those cops thwarting the will of the people, but you say it was a "photo shoot". That's hilarious.

I'll believe what I saw on the video, which matched the reports that the hotel security could not contain the situation. You are the first one saying that the cops were there for a shift change. I've been to hotel events and cops don't show up like that for no reason. Hilarious.

[closeupready]

22. I lost all respect for her. She lied, she slandered Bernie's supporters,

and now she continues lying. Sad how money and power corrupt even the most stalwart liberals. But here we are.

[mcar]

26. Weaver has no right to decide what another person feels

[w4rma]

34. Boxer is lame duck. She's taking her golden parachute and bailing out.

But, what a way to go out. She undermines her entire legacy by lying and smearing the most popular presidential candidate of 2016 and every single one of Bernie Sanders's supporters.

[lame54]

35. Fires back?...

she says she wants no more fighting and the headline reads 'Fires back" - very tone-deaf

[trueblue2007]

40. WEAVER IS AN A$$HOLE. "It was stupid and shameful of Weaver to demean B. Boxer. "

I can't stand Weaver. I think he is a VILE man.

[MaeScott]

124. He told the truth and now the truth is demeaning?

[trueblue2007]

153. He is a MEAN, hateful and disgusting man. I do not hear truth from him.

I hear bitterness and rage.

[hopemountain]

203. truth is vile?

[Gore1FL]

42. It's funny that HRC and her supporters have no desire to heal and re-unite the party.

and by funny, I mean sad, but not unexpected.

[TwilightZone]

55. I'm not sure how you unite the party...

with someone who is pretty clearly trying to take it down.

That would be some trick.

[riversedge]

103. Best tell Weaver your whin!! It was Weaver who said the nasty comment.

[Gore1FL]

108. Who is Weaver and what is a whin?

In any event. Clinton and her supporters should really start to try to heal the party instead of further divide it.

[Hekate]

207. A weaver twists things, and a whin is a kind of spiny bush. Hope that helps.

[mudstump]

45. Boxer and others like her are the elite political establishment...

and, they are so far removed and insulated from the American people that they just can't handle a little push back. It is astonishing how she could have been surprised by the reaction in Vegas. Goes to show just how out-of-touch they are.

[puffy socks]

72. You mean this

Barbara Boxer?

Sanders, Boxer Propose Climate Change Bills
Thursday, February 14, 2013


WASHINGTON, Feb. 14 – Sens. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Barbara Boxer (D-Calif.) today introduced comprehensive legislation on climate change.

Boxer is chairman of the Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works. Sanders sits on the environment committee and also is a member of the Senate energy committee.

Under the legislation, a fee on carbon pollution emissions would fund historic investments in energy efficiency and sustainable energy technologies such as wind, solar, geothermal and biomass. The proposal also would provide rebates to consumers to offset any efforts by oil, coal or gas companies to raise prices.

Gee she sounds like a corporate shill.

[Hekate]

190. I know, I'm just shocked and appalled. Anyone would think she's from (gasp) California!

Where we love the environment and believe in global warming!

Sarcasm Off.

Boxer has a great record.

[LadyHawkAZ]

47. True enough. A shame all those peons with cellphone cameras *were* there

ain't it, Barbara?

[larkrake]

48. Such a drama queen Barbara, you had no business being there either

[BootinUp]

51. Weaver reads too many comic books. nt

[R B Garr]

65. lol, true. He gives other ex-Marines a bad name. n/t

[LAS14]

54. k & r

[stupidicus]

59. yep, the scared always further antagonize that they're scared of

I'm not sure who's the most stupid -- her for saying it or those who'd buy it.

[jwirr]

63. Well she is definitely NOT doing anything to unify the party.

[LovingA2andMI]

69. Nope....

Not At All...

[hrmjustin]

67. Weaver telling a woman how she feels or doesn't feel when being called names and booed

is creepy and disgusting.

But this is to be expected from him.

Sanders should tell him to apologize.

[Vincardog]

101. HRC should apologize for allowing her surrogate Boxer to inflame and malign her voters.

[hrmjustin]

104. She should do no such thing!

[Vincardog]

109. So you think Boxer should be the one to apologize? In the interest of unity of course.

[hrmjustin]

110. No. Weaver.

Boxer did nothing wrong.

[Vincardog]

112. Agreed not Weave he did nothing wrong.

[Skwmom]

70. But Nina Turner was and so were video cameras.

[jwirr]

77. +1

[Maedhros]

75. Why should I trust anything the Clinton surrogates say?

They clearly will say whatever they are told to say, regardless of veracity.

[SharonClark]

82. Why should I trust anything the Sanders surrogates say?

They clearly will say whatever they are told to say, regardless of veracity.

[d_legendary1]

107. Cuz the victim card plays very well into the whole Bernie Bros. meme

Blowing kisses and flipping people off is what scared people do when they're in a stressful situation, don't ya know! OH! And calling the media is also a must since scared people love getting in front of camera and talking about their experiences. Its how they cope with stress.

[MaeScott]

125. And get paid to do smear him as well.

[Gothmog]

79. Weaver's comments were stupid with respect to Sen. Boxer

[BobbyDrake]

83. Love and respect to Sen. Boxer for her courage and strength!

It's not easy standing up to the bullies, but she's making it look effortless.

[pengu]

88. Just one more Clinton surrogate who has destroyed their reputation

Sad.

[hellofromreddit]

90. Weaver should blow her a kiss.

'Cause that'd be funny.

[frylock]

93. Any shot at unification went out the door with your shit show in NV, Senator.

Reap the fucking whirlwind.

[cloudythescribbler]

96. Why do HRC & Surrogates continue to complain about NV if they REALLY want to beat Trump?

Many political forces are already coalescing that tend to oddly support the possibility of a Trump victory, which polls show is a VERY serious possibility, perhaps even a probability at this point. Not long ago, staunch Democrats, seeing Trump in the lead, revelled in the possiblity of an HRC landslide in November, helping Democrats in the battle for Congress as well.

First, note how quickly most of the supposed staunch opposition to Trump completely evaporated. It now appears, eg, that Paul Ryan is ready to endorse Trump (it was already framed as a matter of time). I am reminded of the theatric of the party establishment supposedly uniting to stop Jimmy Carter in Penn during the Democratic primary season -- then quickly continued the minuet and united behind the anointed one quickly thereafter. Over the years, we can see that the supposed liberal opposition to Carter in the Democratic establishment -- completey vitiated by the fragmentation of the more progressive grassroots in 76 among four different candidates. This fragmentation pattern was repeated in the GOP primaries in 2016.

Also, note how the mainstream press, which has effectively been an arm of the Trump campaign in this election, combined with mountains of more-sincere-than-sincerity-itself handwringing across the board from journalists, largely doing the job of 'justifying the lying' in any case. Note one example of the MSM pulling their punches with Trump where it might most hurt him -- during the runup to the Iraq War, there was much discussion of jihadist internet chatter, gleeful and gloating about the prospects of the US launching a war against Iraq, knowing that this would clearly help jihadism throughout the region, which indeed it has (including within Iraq). Now surely there MUST be SOME internet chatter from jihadis after more than six months of nonstop coverage of Donald Trump and his xenophobic politics and appeal. And no doubt it wouldn't take too much for the MSM (or others) to dig up this internet chatter (largely not in English, so it requires some special skills to be deployed) seeing to what extent there is similar gloating about the prospect of a Trump presidency, and how this too would drive more of the world's Moslems into the arms of jihadism

Finally, we have the internal politics of the Democratic Party. The knives are already being sharpened to scapegoat & blame Bernie and the progressive wing of the Democratic Party if Hillary loses to Trump. Yet it is precisely the actions and behavior of HRC and her surrogates, including in this scenario of this OP, that would tend to MAXIMIZE the alienation and difficulty of getting close to 100% of Sanders' voters to vote for HRC in the fall in the likely event that she is the nominee, if only to stop Trump. Pushing BS to drop out or to 'tone it down' over the next few weeks, or for his supporters to 'lay off' Bernie, as Reid (the pushover for GOP obstructionism in the Senate 2009-10) recently suggested. Rather than be impatient, the wiser course (which Hillary is at least pretending to follow, even as she won't debate Bernie and doesn't try to restrain her surrogates trashing Bernie and his supporters). Either we would have to see for example those who arranged the NV Convention recently to shut out Bernie supporters from effective participation as total idiots (following Napoleon's precept on the issue) or we would have to conclude that they are either indifferent to or even promoting an agenda of alienating the Sanderistas like myself for the GE in as great numbers as possible. Magnanimity might not pay off handsomely in the near term of the next few months, but the insults and attacks invariably get remembered by many with predictable results

I say all the above as someone who, supporting Bernie from day 1, and before that the idea of him running for president AND AS A DEMOCRAT IN THE PRIMARIES, also agree with his long-stated position that if Hillary is the nominee he will back her. (Trying to push him to commit to this or that at this point may be a media game, but HRC's supporters if strategically smart would completely eschew this type of approach, as it would ONLY help Trump in November

This applies very clearly to Barbara Boxer along with others continuing to snipe at Bernie & his supporters, on the basis of a narrative about NV that turns out to be very dubious in any event. Their priority on keeping the influence of the relatively progressive wing of the Party subdued and in its place, so to speak, is only more likely to help a Trump victory, even if it also helps neoliberals maintain control of the Democratic Party

[billhicks76]

97. Clintonites Keep Locking Their Own Threads After Getting Last Word In

Talk about juvenile...wow. So off putting just like their candidate. This is going to come back to them as bad energy always does. They are too blind to know it though.

[chwaliszewski]

217. Hmmmm

[disillusioned73]

99. She's doing the Hillster ..

no favors... lil Boxer needs to follow Harry Reids lead..

[raindaddy]

117. For those disbelievers ......

We all saw the video. Barbara was throwing kisses as if her life depended on it!

[Festivito]

118. Afraid of them disliking my traitorous thieving and cheating. Oh my! eom

[shenmue]

119. Go Sen. Boxer!

[L.A.C.]

121. Where is this info coming from?

The link is to a completely unrelated article...

[onecaliberal]

126. YOU'RE ON VIDEO, blowing kisses, and flipping off the crowd. If you were so frightened

perhaps you'd want to refrain from inciting them.

[riversedge]

131. 1. You are Wrong-snopes says NO flipping; 2. Sanders fans incited themselves when she

started to speak. How you like it if the crowd would have yelled obscenities and screamed at Nina Turner??

By he way--she did blow them kisses when she left the stage.
Check out snopes before you post again and look foolish.


http://www.snopes.com/barbara-boxer-gave-bernie-sanders-supporters-the-finger/

[JDPriestly]

127. It was stupid of Boxer to go on the stage if she was that scared.

Nina Turner was there and should have been brought to the stage first.

The conduct of the convention was a black mark on the Democratic Party of the State of Nevada. Shame on them for trying to silence Bernie backers.

Barbara Boxer is a Californian. What was she doing interfering in the Nevada convention.

Barbara Boxer in my opinion as a Californian is beyond her prime. It's good that she is stepping down.

[Bodych]

169. Grandma Boxer & Aunt Clinton have something in common: Zach

Boxer is hardly unbiased: Her and Clinton are family, which we're not supposed to dwell on.

The family/political interactions of these two go way back.

Talk about revolving doors.

[Kingofalldems]

129. Anyone who attacks Boxer so viciously is probably a republican.

[Hekate]

205. "Or an idiot. But I repeat myself." (Will Rogers or Mark Twain?)

Sorry -- I could not resist a straight line like that.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

130. K&R nt

[modestybl]

133. Look, this was video-taped she is obviously full of crap...

... we saw her swagger off and give the crowd the finger. Okay, free country, she freely gave her opinion of the Sanders delegates, kind of the opinion of the Dem Party Leadership.

When the Dems in Congress shouted Shame! over the Repub defeat of the LGBT amendment to a veterans spending bill, that wasn't considered violent behavior. For people who felt cheated because of last minute rule changes by voice vote, after over 12 hours of caucusing, the disrespect spouting from Boxier was awful, so you get what you give...

But the lying on the part of Dems regarding the non-existing violence, continues a nasty smear tactics that started the slanderous accusations of racism and sexism (the whole Karl Rovian "Bernie Bro" campaign, similar to the Clintons' race-baiting "Obama Boys" tactics in 2008), and now falsely accuses Sanders supporters of being violent.

Just dirry, nasty politics, that will come back to haunt HRC if she is the nominee ...

[all american girl]

223. Well, I guess that settles it...because she didn't run off the stage in tears she couldn't

possibly be afraid, because you said so. Yep, a man gets to tell a woman (or any person) how the FEEL....because they know better than we do.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

135. "They were so close to me ..."

Oh, yes, us dirty people were so close to you. Oh, the horror!

[jtuck004]

136. ""Frankly they were so close to me, I don't know what they could have done," Boxer said. " EWWWW!

Could have been touched or something. By commoners.



pathetic

[Peachhead22]

138. Just because I don't have a vagina

Doesn't mean I don't have eyes either.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

140. Face it. There was no violence. "Bernie Bros" is a fiction created by the Hillary Committee.

[pmorlan1]

151. No, it was shameful

for Senator Boxer to lie and now she is compounding that lie when there is clear evidence that shows what happened.

[The_Casual_Observer]

152. Sanders to Boxer : "Get off my lawn!!!"

[urbuddha]

161. Used to like Boxer, never again...not anymore. Never Hillary ever. Bernie or Bust !!!

I will never vote for Hillary, no matter the consequence. The DNC deserves everything
they are getting. They have created their own hell. BERNIE or BUST !!!

[Hekate]

206. Suuuuure you did. By the way, are you going third party when HRC gets the nom?

JURY: I am responding to this post, in case it gets changed -- "I will never vote for Hillary, no matter the consequence. The DNC deserves everything they are getting. They have created their own hell. BERNIE or BUST !!!"

[Buddyblazon]

162. With all due respect to Boxer...

Who the hell feels terrified of a crowd...and then goes out and trolls them?

Cmon, Senator...you have to take responsibility for your actions.

"I'm so terrified of this crowd...I'm going to go out there and push their buttons."...said nobody ever.

[Cassiopeia]

186. With no respect due....

Good post.

[MADem]

165. Love the way they tried to turn kiss blowing into finger throwing.

Way to warm up California by shitting on some of their most popular residents. Not only are they crapping on Boxer, they're crapping on Tommy Chong, too!

It's like they're TRYING to lose!

[NBachers]

168. Hands off Barbara Boxer!

[Cassiopeia]

184. That's right. Everyone should have been sitting quietly eating their peas.

How dare progressives not know their fucking place.

[mhatrw]

195. She was so damn scared, she simply couldn't HELP but be dismissively demeaning!

[TomCADem]

209. So, While She Said No, Her Eyes Said Yes?

Perhaps we will have DUers quoting Kasich saying she had it coming with respect to the abuse and obscenities.

[mhatrw]

237. I'm incredibly frightened by your accusation that I embrace rape apologists.

[modestybl]

212. You were on tape Barbara... and being belligerent yourself...

... giving the finger to the crowd instead of maybe trying to understand their frustration... sad that someone who has a reputation as a liberal Senator, has to shill for HRC this way. And no, it wasn't a threatening situation. The only threatening presence was the Chicago-style goon squad that was ringing the stage...

[MrMickeysMom]

221. Yeah... Here's the "vile" comment...

"Shame on you!"

Then she flipped them this...

[cpwm17]

236. Unless she has a deformed hand, that looks like her index finger

[MrMickeysMom]

239. No, I think the deformed thing is her memory...

... as in, "I was scared for my safety".

[cpwm17]

240. She's lying about being scared, but she didn't flip the crowd off.

[all american girl]

224. Yep, us little women need men to tell us how we FEEL, especially of we don't

behave the way they think we should. Women should never stand up for themselves when the men are angry and acting like assholes. We should know our place and cower in fear...

[Thinkingabout]

226. The mob actions was meant to intimidate, they wanted to scare Boxer and others, they

Was not cheering, they were booing, using poor judgement, probably resulting from their trips to the bars, it is time for campaign workers in Weaver's position to make statements against the behavior of a few instead of criticizing Boxer being afraid, again Weaver has used poor judgement in calling Boxer a liar, the liar is Weaver.

[Iggo]

227. Weak.

[Waiting For Everyman]

233. It was stupid and shameful of Boxer.

The video shows the real story. She got caught, and Weaver called her on it. What does she do? Of course, she doubles up on the lies and finger-points others.

Shame on top of shame. Proceed Barbie, keep going.

(And I say that as a Dem woman of close to her age.)

[riversedge]

235. snopes says you and Weaver are telling big fibs. ...Check it out....

http://www.snopes.com/barbara-boxer-gave-bernie-sanders-supporters-the-finger/

[Beacool]

234. Weaver and Devine are two weasels. I'm glad their time in the sun is coming to an end.

Good for Sen. Boxer to stand up for herself.