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[IDemo]

This message was self-deleted by its author (IDemo) on Tue Jun 14, 2016, 08:56 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[Little Tich]

1. Putin should give back Crimea and stop being such a bully... n/t

[happyslug]

6. And if the people of the Crimea do not want to go back?

That seems to be what the people of the Crimea want, the Ukrainian economy is going downhill, Russia, while not doing well, is booming compared to the Ukraine. Thus most people in the Crimea want to stay with Russia.

Worse the main source of income for the Crimea PRIOR to its annexation was the Russian fleet. The people of the Crimea see any effort to remove that fleet as a threat to them. When the nee government in Kyiv started to talk about kicking out the Russian Fleet, that was to much a threat to both Russia AND the people of the Crimea.

You may not like that set of facts, but that is what drove the annexation of the Crimea by Russia. Russia knew that once they took the Crimea, the people of the Crimea would accept it. No resistance, no local opposition, easy take over that secures Russia's Black Sea Fleet. Nothing like the fighting in the Eastern Ukraine. I remember the breakup of the Soviet Union, Russia and Ukraine disputed tge Crimea even then, the agreement was to share the Crimea. Ukraine would have technical rule, but through a semi independent local Government. Russia would have complete freedom to maintain the support of the Russian Fleet.

That agreement was what everyone accepted, like most such agreement not written, but accepted. It worked to everyone's advantage but like most divorces, when it occurs, everyone blames every one else, but also tries to pick up the most pieces gor themselves. That is that Russia did in the Crimea, and what the locals did when they supported the Russian takeover.

That takeover is now permanet, the Ukraine nor any one else will be able to reverse it unless they get the Crimea locals to want to rejoin the Ukraine. Right now the Ukraine is not doing anything in that regard, nor is anyone else. Until that is done, the Crimea will stay solidly in Russia.

[Little Tich]

35. First of all, civil unrest in a sovereign country must never be used as an excuse for a neighbor to

Last edited Sun May 29, 2016, 12:01 AM - Edit history (1)

move in and annex areas.

It would be like the US moving into Tijuana if there's unrest and then just declare it American territory.

Secondly, the way the invasion was done shows that the pretense of popular support was just a ruse - usually a coup precedes an invasion, not the other way around.

It would be like the US moving into Nogales Tijuana first and then stage a pro-American coup.

Thirdly, the Crimean refendum was a total scam and was only for show. Russia was just an occupying force justifying it's presence by forcing a sham election at the barrel of a gun. As long as Russia doesn't withdraw, it will never be possible to have a fair referendum that accurately reflects the will of the people.

It would be like the US moving into Tijuana when there's civil unrest, stage a coup and then have a fake referendum that proves that more than 108% of Tijuanans entusiastically want to become part of the USA.

Putin did something really bad when he emulated the tactics of a certain Austrian Corporal in the 30's, and basically any country with a Russian minority can be the target for another Russian invasion. I suppose Russia can hold on to Crimea indefinitely, but it will isolate Russia politically, and will be at the expense of the Russian people.

You may have forgotten the Budapest Memorandums on Security Assurances from 1994, where Russia promised to “respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine” and “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.” (http://www.cfr.org/nonproliferation-arms-control-and-disarmament/budapest-memorandums-security-assurances-1994/p32484) Apparently, Putin did too, so you're in good company, I guess...

[Duckhunter935]

82. Notice how you get crickets in response

[uhnope]

91. more plain truth, well said. Thank you.

[ancianita]

93. Putin's not the first to use an invasion pretext like a 'minority.' Reagan did it in Grenada.

[TomVilmer]

64. Ukraine denied Crimean independence in 1995

In 1990, the parliament of Crimean claimed autonomous status. This was limited by Ukrainian authorities in 1995.

[newthinking]

76. Exactly. "The Autonomous Republic of Crimea" was the name of the region, not "Crimea"

It had it's own Parliment.

TARC was struggling for independence from Ukraine for much of the last 20 years. But does our press mention anything about context?

[Monk06]

2. So if Canada allowed Russia to install anti ballistic missile batteries on the Alberta / Montana

border that should be OK with the US government?

Those Patriot missile bases in Poland are not intended to protect Europe against IRAN long range missiles
They are meant to intercept Russian ICBM before they reach the upper atmosphere

It is an act of aggression by the US and it's NATO sock puppet allies that is the exact equivalent or basing Russian missiles on the Canadian border

Or more to the point in Cuba or Venezuela

How about Russian missile bases in Siberia thirty miles from Alaska that should be OK too by NATO reasoning

The hypocrisy in the US rational le about Russian aggression is laughable after the destruction of Libya, Iraq and Syria by the US and it's NATO thumb sucker allies

[happyslug]

3. Why use Canada? The USSR put missiles in Cuba in 1962.

Remember what happened then? The US just accepted those missiles right? Those missiles were to protect Cuba.

[Lodestar]

30. Read your history. The USSR put those missiles in Cuba because

the U.S. placed Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy. Although it was kept from the public,
the deal that ended the Cuban Crisis was based on the mutual removal of those U.S. Jupiter
missiles in exchange for the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba. This is the piece of our
history which still has not become well known.
So it seems the U.S. is provoking the Russians (then the USSR) with missiles near or on their
borders once again. Only this time the U.S. is attempting to pre-empt Cuban involvement by reopening relations with Cuba and undoing sanctions. Brilliant.....NOT.

The practical effect of this Kennedy-Khrushchev Pact was that it effectively strengthened Castro's position in Cuba, guaranteeing that the U.S. would not invade Cuba. It is possible that Khrushchev only placed the missiles in Cuba to get Kennedy to remove the missiles from Italy and Turkey and that the Soviets had no intention of resorting to nuclear war if they were out-gunned by the U.S.[98] Because the withdrawal of the Jupiter missiles from NATO bases in Southern Italy and Turkey was not made public at the time, Khrushchev appeared to have lost the conflict and become weakened. The perception was that Kennedy had won the contest between the superpowers and Khrushchev had been humiliated. This is not entirely the case as both Kennedy and Khrushchev took every step to avoid full conflict despite the pressures of their governments. Khrushchev held power for another two years.[93]:102–105

The compromise embarrassed Khrushchev and the Soviet Union because the withdrawal of U.S. missiles from Italy and Turkey was a secret deal between Kennedy and Khrushchev. Khrushchev went to Kennedy thinking that the crisis was getting out of hand. The Soviets were seen as retreating from circumstances that they had started. Khrushchev's fall from power two years later was in part because of the Politburo embarrassment at both Khrushchev's eventual concessions to the U.S. and his ineptitude in precipitating the crisis in the first place. According to Dobrynin, the top Soviet leadership took the Cuban outcome as "a blow to its prestige bordering on humiliation."[99]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

[happyslug]

75. I knew about the removal of missiles from Turkey

My point was the US media reaction to missiles in Cuba. That the Soviet Union had similar missiles aimed at them from Turkey was unknown to the American public and thus to Americans they were threatened by Soviet missiles that shown clear threats against the USA. Putin and Russia is much like the American Public in 1962, seeing a building threat on their border.

[Duckhunter935]

83. Do you know what missile defense is?

I do as i work with it. It is totally defensive with no offensive capability.

[happyslug]

89. In the Yom Kipper war, AA missiles were used offensively.

Basically the Egyptians used their Anti Aircraft missiles to provide cover over the battlefield. Thus ground forces, as long as those forces stayed under the AA missile defense, can attack, then wait for the AA missiles to move forward to cover the ground forces further advance. The Egyptians offensive failed when to relieve Israeli attacks on Syria forces, the Egyptians moved beyond their AA defense. This opened up those forces to massive air attacks, and permitted the subsequent Israeli advance cross the Suez Canal.

My point is a defense weapon often permitts offensive operations. The same with Star Wars, it can restrict the use of Russian missiles to destroyed supply bases, thus destroying Russia's best defense, to destroy the supply system for any NATO ground force attack.

Defense is often the best way to cover and support an offensive force. Thus this missile defense attacks the best way to end the ability of NATO or the US to maintain an attack on Russia. Thus a missile defense protects offensive operations and that is why Russia will always oppose missile defense that close to its borders.

If these forces were truly defensive, there be no need for such a defensive force outside North America. If you wanted to include NATO, what use to be West East Germany would be as near to the borders of Russia you would have to do to cover NATO, Including Poland.

In the days of old, true defensive forts were always beyound the range of artillery. Thus the fort's guns could only hit within that country's border, and any attacking force would have to move guns into the country being attacked. You do not have that with missile defense, it can cover missiles while with inside Russia. That is offensive in nature not defensive.

The problem is not the technology behind missile defense, but the forward positioning of those missiles. Thus putting them in Germany, Russia would have no objection, but in Romania and Poland is just to close. The problem is placement not the technology.

[braddy]

5. It is a NATO defense obligation against Putin's threats against NATO members.

[Monk06]

7. Yeah sure and Doris Day was a virgin until she got married

Before the fall of the USSR NATO positioned missiles and tanks on the border with the Warsaw Pact counties

After that, the US and the EU and Britain pushed to bring those countries into NATO and what is the first thing they did long before the Georgia and the Ukrainian Orange revolutions?

That's right while Russia was being run by that drunkard Yeltzin NATO maneuvered to absorb all the former Warsaw Pact countries into NATO

For the same reason that Turkey was allowed into NATO, in order to place US ICBMs on Russia's border

That is what led to the Cuban Missile crisis and that crisis was ended only when the US was forced to remove missiles form Turkey as the price that had to be paid for Russia removing it's missiles for Cuba

I don't know how old you are but I lived through the Cuban missile crisis while going to school in Fort Churchill Man which was a Strategic Air Command Radar base in all but name

So spare me the poor NATO defending itself against Russian agression line That lie is so old it has turned into stone

[braddy]

8. Thank God we freed those people after decades of Soviet enslavement, never again.

[Monk06]

10. Keep singing that Cold War lullaby to yourself Duck and cover dude

How much different are the US and Russia today?

Two gangster states run by thieves who got rich while no one was looking

Enjoy your world with Trump and Putin clinking champagne glasses while the rest of us sit in poverty

[braddy]

13. If there is no difference between freedom and being conquered by Russia,

then they wouldn't be begging for protection, and be NATO members.

Sweden and Finland are not considering joining Russia for defense from NATO, but they are considering NATO membership to protect them from Putin.

[Monk06]

14. Sweden wants to sell the SAAB Gripen to Europe

That is their only reason to all of a sudden give up their not so sacred status of neutrality

Russia and Sweden have been at each other since the 11th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Russia_and_Sweden

Love of freedom and defense against the Russian agressor has nothing to do with it

It's all about the Euro and the arms trade in Europe

As for Finland they are not so consumed by anxiety about the Russians in spite of the Winter War

They want trade and markets for their high tech industries Russia has not much to offer Finland in the way of trade except Vodka and Finnish Vodka is higher quality than Russian boat gas like Stoli and Moskovskaya

Membership in the Euroblock comes with NATO price tag

[braddy]

15. LOL, they already have all that, what they fear they don't have, is enough protection from Putin's

aggression.

[Monk06]

16. You sound like one of those SAC kids in my sixth grade class in 1962

Totally convinced of America's benevolence and Europe's need for protection from the Russian Bear

The US defender of the Free World while overthrowing governments in Iran, Nicaraga and virtually all of South America, Micronesia and South East Asia

Here is a shortlist of countries where the US defended freedom loving people by overthrowing their governments since the end of WWII

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/08/35_countries_the_u_s_has_backed_international_crime_partner/

It was bullshit then and it is bullshit now

Everywhere that America has set foot in the world freedom was not defended, it vanished along with the lives of millions of poor people who just wanted to live and feed their children

But Communism, so blow the place to pieces

Now we have ISIS, so blow the place to pieces

And you wonder why the world hates you

[braddy]

17. The world hates me?

It is clear that the nations that Canada and the rest of NATO freed from Russian slavery, love NATO, enough to join Canada as fellow NATO allies alongside their Canadian soldiers.

"Canadians and Romanians Share Strategies and Tactics During Exercise SCORPION FURY April 22, 2016
Soldiers of the Operation REASSURANCE Land Task Force (LTF) have concluded their training with the Romanian Army in Cincu, Romania, as part of Exercise SCORPION FURY.
During the exercise, which occurred from April 7 to 20, 2016, the Canadians were embedded with Romania’s 20th Infantry Battalion, and conducted platoon-, company- and battalion-level training in both offensive and defensive conventional warfare scenarios."

[Monk06]

20. Where's the quote from the National Post or an old Steven Harper press release

Liberal and Left Canadians have no use for NATO I assure you

And Scorpion Fury how embarrassing is that Wanker Mil sabre rattling by five year old boys

Canadians embedded with Romanian Forces Not really a lot to brag about if your a Canadian with that announcement

This is what this Canadian thinks NATO is a bunch of biker gang enforcers for US foreign policy in Europe that has been the only reason for NATOs existence from the very beginning You can say the same thing for the US as well

[braddy]

21. Some of us helped free 100s of millions of people in Europe from Russia, Canada helped us do that.

Those people want to remain free, and Canada is helping them remain so.

[Monk06]

23. Robots dream of electric sheep

You are a victem of your own pathetic nationalism

Unlike you I don't worship my country Nor do I lie to cover Canada's many sins

[braddy]

24. While men dream of freedom.

You seem angry that those 100s of millions escaped Russian slavery.

Why are you so angry and bitter about something that you seem to have never been involved in? It comes off as merely a worship and loyalty to Russia and it's empire. What is so wrong about Poland and Romania being free?

[Monk06]

25. No I'm angry at the 100s of millions your country enslaved and killed and impoverished

Take some responsibility finally for what the US has done in the world since the Spanish American War

And I don't worship Russia or any other country or ideology especially my own country which is not some fount wisdom and virtue as some people think

Putin is a gangster just like every US president except Roosevelt and Carter

And your getting ready to vote in another ganster just like Putin

You're, "Why are you bitter, substitution fallacy is pretty obvious by the way"

[braddy]

27. You need to look at what the thread topic is, your hatred of America and Canada is off topic,

this is a NATO thread, Poland and Romania and their being under threat again from Russia.

[Monk06]

28. And my response that NATO is just a mes sanger boy for a US attempt to get the cold war restarted

still stands

And does pointing out the myriad of crimes the US has committed using the Cold War as an excuse, does that count as hatred or just facing the truth?

I hate your government not the American people

Your government has managed to convince you that the government and the people are one and the same

Pull the veil from your eyes

My opinions are not based on emotion My emotions stem from what has been done in the name of the American people Yet you defend it all out of some misguided pride and sense of loyalty

[braddy]

31. Canada was part of NATO from the beginning, why you think that Poland and Romania belong to Russia

is a puzzle.

Why are you so hostile to these nations being free from Russia?

[Monk06]

36. Changing the subject again putting words in my mouth with an obvious and empty non sequitur

Oh why do I hate America the Beautiful?

Nationalist sentimentality is really a sad thing to watch

[braddy]

38. Changing the subject which is Poland, Romania, and NATO, and Putin threatening them?

You are the one way off topic and raging against America and Canada.

[Monk06]

40. No you are changing the subject by stating that I am bitter Look up non sequitur I'm

saying you are changing the subject of the argument not the topic

[braddy]

42. What do you have against Poland and Romania, and why do you support Russia over them?

[Monk06]

45. Well an ingrained anti Semitism shared by Romania and Poland going back centuries for one

The fact that Poland is being run by a right wing nationalist party and supports the eastern Ukrainian fascist Svoboda party for two

The fact that Poland is allowing itself to be used by NATO as a pawn in a turf war with Russia.

Poland has allowed itself to be taken over by the right wing since Pope Paul the second and Lech Walesa's political ambitions siezed the imagination of the country

I know Poles from that era who fled to Canada they are charming and generous but they are also brooding about the past in a way that will not take them forward

There should, in my opinion, be a Caucasian Union of ex Warsaw Pact countries who are outside both the Russian and NATO orbit so they can build something positive, strong and independent within the context of and Eastern Slavic Alliance

But instead they will allow NATO and Russia to fuck that opportunity up for them By them I mean all the non Russian non European countries from Estonia to the Baltic

[braddy]

46. Wow, that is just weird, another large military alliance that they don't want, but you do.

Since their only interest is in being a part of the free nations of NATO, and not being conquered again by Russia, why would they want to create something they don't want and which would be weaker against Russia than what they have now?

Why don't you just let them be their own nations?

I have tried to make some sense of your lifelong obsession, but I can't find any.

[Monk06]

54. Because the Warsaw Pact are culturally more alike than they are similar to Europeans or

Russians

They have a shared history of being sometimes part of the Russian Empire, sometimes independent and some of the countries, part of the Austrio-Hungarian Empire Never united as a linguistic and cultural region in their own right

I think it is an Anglo European conceit that they could not stand as a unified region between Russia or Europe without being dominated by one or the other Which has been the history of this region for at least a millennium

Europe is trying to entice the region into a military alliance through NATO membership and an economic alliance via the Euro Block But Europe will not keep any promises to the region once it gets what it wants which is missile bases in Poland, Georgia and the Czech Republic and to surround the Russian naval bases in the Baltic

The second goal is to reduce dependence on Russian energy and political influence beyond it's borders

The old cold war containment strategy lives on and it won't work

[braddy]

56. Do you realize that those people actually exist and can think for themselves?

They know more about Russia and it's lust for empire and it's aggression and ability to defeat them and conquer them than you will ever know, and they want to be part of Europe, not Russia.

Why are you so pro-Russian and anti-West?

[Monk06]

58. I worked with a Russian guy in 1995 He was a Captain in the Russian Army and moved to Canada

after the fall of the USSR. He had a tree farm in the Ukraine and lost it when the Ukraine became independent I was a painter in a sign shop and he machined plastic lettering He got me fired because he saw me getting in the way of a raise for himself He was a prick

So no I don't particularily like Russians and I wouldn't underestimate them

That doesn't mean I think they want to invade the old Warsaw Pact block I see it as Russian Gangsters trying to take over the territory of the Ukrainian and Georgian gangsters It's just a mafia turf was at the moment

Can't build nations out of that until the oligarchs are kicked out

[braddy]

59. Want to invade the old Warsaw Pact? What in the heck are you talking about?

you don't seem to know squat about all this, you don't know what Putin wanted 25 years ago, and wants today?

Why are all these nations under threat?

[Monk06]

60. You're right I am totally ignorant Bring it on one more time I know you can do it

[braddy]

61. What are we supposed to do? Some of us spent years involved in this stuff, we know what is

going on over there and what your people, us, and our allies are facing.

[Monk06]

62. With that you put me over 7000 posts Woo Hoo !! Thank Yoo and G' Nite

[braddy]

63. I'm still trying to figure out why you used being Inuit like you did, not to mention the rest.

[Duckhunter935]

85. Indeed so, thanks for stating it

[christx30]

68. They probably know that the

Caucasian Union wouldn't be strong enough to counter a Russian invasion. NATO would be. It's as simple as that. Sticking with one's own culture, or similar cultures is great, but it doesn't give you magically give you enough bullets and bombs to protect yourself from Russia. I'm sure something like what you're proposing has probably been discussed by them (if you can think of it, others have as well), and it was rejected as not being enough.
And as for Poland being taken over by the right wing, it's probably because of the 44 years they spent as a communist country. (It wasn't called the Warsaw Pact for nothing.) I'm sure you think it's great in theory, but these people lived it, and don't want any part of it again. Those years of living in a communist country pushed them hard to the right.

[whathehell]

78. "Nationalist sentimentality is a sad thing to watch"?

So is your corrosive, all consuming hatred.

[whathehell]

77. Thank you..

[uhnope]

65. you just equated Putin with Obama, Kennedy, Bill Clinton...

I was going to ask why aren't you angry about the 100s of millions Russia or China enslaved or killed or impoverished--but I think you've really lost the plot. People who get so angry about the US, while ignoring the crimes of the first and second largest dictatorships in the world that are still horrendous places for basic freedoms, usually have some issue to work out and can't be reasoned with.

[MattSh]

69. So much fail with that one...

My wife was born in the USSR and she has only good things to say about it.

So if you're wondering why we're living in the USA, we're not. We are living in Ukraine, and my wife will tell anyone who cares to listen how things were so much better then than they are now living in Ukraine. Ukraine is currently a freaking mess, and it has nothing to do with Putin. But that's what happens when you invite in the IMF.

And who's this "we" to which you refer anyway?

EDIT to add this.

And IF you want to learn a bit more about whether the USSR was popular or not among its residents, read this.

----------

Soviet Union referendum, 1991 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A referendum on the future of the Soviet Union was held on 17 March 1991. The question put to voters was

Do you consider necessary the preservation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as a renewed federation of equal sovereign republics in which the rights and freedom of an individual of any nationality will be fully guaranteed?[1]

In Kazakhstan, the wording of the referendum was changed by substituting "equal sovereign states" for "equal sovereign republics".[2]

Although the vote was boycotted by the authorities in Armenia, Estonia, Georgia (though not the breakaway province of Abkhazia, where the result was over 98% in favour,[3] and in South Ossetia),[4] Latvia, Lithuania, and Moldova (though not Transnistria or Gagauzia),[5] turnout was 80% across the rest of the USSR.[2] The referendum's question was approved by nearly 70% of voters in all nine other republics that took part.[6] It was the only referendum in the history of the Soviet Union, which was dissolved on 26 December 1991.[7][8]

-----> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_referendum,_1991

I guess they were so enslaved that they had absolutely no idea what they were doing or what they were voting for.

[braddy]

74. Maybe West Germany and Romania and Poland can return to slavery under the Russian master.

They don't seem eager to do so, the USSR was an evil Russian empire that threatened non enslaved Western Europe, now most of it's victims are a part of the NATO defense alliance against that ever happening again.

You want Putin to reconquer Poland and Romania, or should they be allowed to be free?

[uhnope]

90. you speak the plain truth. Thank you.

And you surprisingly only got a little pushback from DUma Underground.

[840high]

9. I remember. We were stationed

at an army base.

[Monk06]

12. When Kennedy was assassinated my Canadian teacher came into the room

breathlessly announcing that the President had been assassinated to all the children of SAC officers

One girl spoke up and said the Communists did it

The next day the American kids were put on alert to be evacuated back to Texas with 24 hours notice

Canadian kids got to sit and watch the shear cowardice of the whole charade

America, leader of the free world, getting ready to take the first plane out of Dodge

Meanwhile actual Russian Missiles would go right over our heads on their way to Montana Washington Utah and a few spots in Texas where my American classmate were getting ready to run to

Weird time Even at 12 I new the whole cold war thing was one big propaganda ruse to sell missiles and B52s

[cheapdate]

18. When the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia to stop the Prague Spring,

was that "one big propaganda ruse to sell missiles and B52s"?

[Monk06]

19. And what was the US reaction to to Czechoslovakian nationalist attempt at freeing themselves

from Russian domination? Did the US increase troop levels in Europe NO Did NATO move forces to the Czech border to send a message to Russia and defend freedom loving Czechs NO

What did the US do They sent in the US ambassador to Czechoslovakia, the Nixon Reagan lovin Shirley Temple Black to evacuate US embassy personnel from the country

The US had bigger fish to fry propping up their self installed dictator Diem in Viet Nam so they could sell B52s and F8s and Bell Huey's other military equipment worth hundreds of billions because that is what freedom is all about for America; making huge profits for the Mil complex by destroying countries that sort of annoy you

You are so naive it is not worth saying anything more to you

USA USA USA

[cheapdate]

73. Right back at you, buddy.

You're almost a caricature. Are you even real? Or are you just a bot programmed to follow any and every thread of history to the one conclusion that all of human history and existence is just an elaborate construction evolved for the purpose of selling B52s?

You're boring.

[braddy]

29. When a soldier is stationed out of his country during peacetime with his wife and kids, and the

world comes under threat and they are facing duty deployment and possible war, they automatically send the family home, it is not "cowardice".

Whether Korea, West Germany, Canada, when things heat up, they send the wife and kids home, wouldn't you?

[Monk06]

34. It's cowardice when you send your military and their families to another country on the pretext that

you are defending them and then high tail it out of Dodge the minute things go a bit sideways

Fort Churchill was not even close enough to being a nuclear target to warrent the immediate evacualion
of a bunch of Texas school children at a moment's notice

The whole spectacle of the Cuban Missile crisis was nothing but posturing even to me at the time and I was only twelve years old

Just agit prop theater by both sides in a game of brinkmanship

Churchill in 1962 was not Korea and West Germany was not in danger of invasion by the Soviets The USSR could barely feed their own people at the time Same with China

The Soviet world used the cold war to control their own people with fear and intimidation in the 50s and early 60s

The West played the same game Duck and cover. wipe the nuclear ash off your car after the bombs fall and everything will be fine

Meanwhile Lockheed, Rayethon General Dynamics et al took over your country

[braddy]

37. You need to speak more clearly, who were these people, and why were they transferred, and to where?

What country were they from, why were they in your school? Have you ever been in the military?

What is it that you are complaining about, soldiers sending their families home, being called up to duty, being shifted in location due to a dramatic change in circumstances, what?

[Monk06]

39. I grew up in the military I was in Fort Churchill during the missile crisis and the Kennedy

assassination

The kids were 10 to 12 sons and daughters of Strategic Air Command officers and enlisted radar ops and supply personnel

The were all grouped together in class The Canadian kids were grouped in the middle of the class and the Inuit kids were all by themselves on the other side of the room

During those two crises the Canadian kids were subjected to relentless cold war bullshit hysteria while the Inuit kids looked on with smiles and jokes

It was an eye opener when the teacher came into class and told the American kids that they may be evacuated in 24 hrs

Of course we Canucks were not going to be part of the flight to safety

The crisis came and went and my family was transferred to Ottawa as part of a routine rotation As far as I remember the American kids stayed on until their parents were posted elsewhere

What impressed me about the American kids was that in spite of being in military families they were not the least bit interested in relating to Canadian or Inuit kids and could not care less about the country they were temporarily living in

The most incurious adults and children I have ever met Convinced of their God given superiority

Except a couple of SAC officers that were scouters in our Scout troop They were good guys

Don't know that that helps you understand the context of my remarks but at the top of it all is my sincere belief that anyone who worships their country is an intellectual slave

[braddy]

41. You have carried all this since childhood?

I still don't know what your actual complaint is about the American children that you are still raging about in your old age. Were they sent home? How do Todd Palin's Inuits fit in, and why would they not be interested in the same concerns as other Canadians in regards to nuclear war?

I still don't get what all this 53 years of hatred is about, I don't even get what this has to do with your feelings about Poland and Romania and them belonging to Putin?

[Monk06]

43. Todd Palin's Inuits ? Churchill is in the eastern Arctic I'm not carrying anything You asked

me if I was in the Military and what it had to do with NATO and Poland

I have been aware of what NATO is since I was 12 because I grew up in a military family

My father was an MP was assigned to the Canadian embassy in Ottawa during the mid sixties so we
were brought up on cold war politics

I give you a serious critical discussion of post war US history and how it relates to NATO and my present attitude towards that Cold War relic and you deflect again by accusing my of being consumed by hatred

I mean Todd Palin's Inuit? Are you just being lazy or contemptuous

The closest relatives to the Inuit in Alaska are the Inupiaq and they are almost a thousand miles apart and don't even speak the same language

You American folks really are not the least bit curious about foreign countries and how non Americans think are you

[braddy]

44. Since you describe Inuits as people different entirely from other Canadians in regards to the

nuclear threat, I thought that getting into that all of the Palins except Sarah being Yup'ik (sorry about the Inuit mention) made as much sense as you bringing up Canadians who are Inuit.

The point was that you make no sense. And what does all your lifelong anger and bitterness have to do with protecting Europe from Russia?

I don't know how this hatred ever developed in you against your American schoolmates, and you won't explain it.

What do you have against Poland and Romania, and why do you support Russia over them?

[Monk06]

47. They fact that I remember the horrible things the US did after Kennedy's death Throughout the

Viet Nam war the bombing of Cambodia the invasions of Nicaragua, Panama and Granada of all places
does not fill me with affection for your government

However, that does not make me an obsessive or a hater carrying a lifetime of resentment on my shoulders

I am just not prepared to view the conflict in Eastern Europe through duplicitous lenses of NATO propaganda or Russian progaganda or Polish and Ukrainian Nationalist progaganda for that matter

My point is there are no innocents in this conflict and if it goes hot everyone will be to blame

I just don't want my country to be part of it. Unfortunately, we are tied to a corrupt NATO military strategic alliance and we a have sacrificed our reputation as fair brokers and peace keepers because of that

Canada invented the UN peace keeping force and brokered the Suez Canal peace due to the efforts of Lester Pearson

[braddy]

49. I remember more than you, and was there more than you, and you seem obsessed

with hating America and Canada rather than paying attention to the topic of the thread, the NATO nations of Poland and Romania and them being threatened by Putin.

You seem to have zero involvement with the Cold war or NATO, perhaps that is why you keep ignoring the thread topic and make silly suggestions of how the former slaves of the Russians should and can defend themselves from Putin's threats by forming some alliance of the weak, and thinking that they could and want to.

[Monk06]

50. To remember more that me implies you have experienced more than me An interesting epidemiological

problem but I'm not sure what evidence or argument could support it

I have no involvement in NATO? Do you mean I am not a member of the military attached to NATO

Maybe you mean I have little know edge of NATO history?

Well as I said I was aware of Prime Minister Lester Pearson's successful negotiations to end the Suez Crisis from and early age and Canada has been part of NATO from it's inception

That does not mean that I approve of NATO in it's present form, or it's policies especially it's policy of expansion into the Slavic Caucasus

You are devolving into petty accusations at this point regarding my emotions and comprehension of this thread and the issues that arise out of it

Why would you assume at the end of it all that an alliance of former Warsaw Pact countries would be weak?
Rather condescending don't you think given that the Ukrainians and Poles chased the Russian all the way back to the gates of Moscow in the middle ages

I to think the Poles and Ukrainians, Estonians, Romanians et al would form perfectly viable non aligned Federation of some sort but the Russians and Nato powers don't want that to happen

[braddy]

52. Your fantasy that former slave states of Russian want to form an alliance of themselves

and could, and that it would be militarily effective, shows that you don't know the subject.

[Jesus Malverde]

51. You guys are fun to read....nt

[braddy]

53. LOL, I bet, it's weird sometimes to be reminded that other people can see this stuff.

How does it look so far?

[Monk06]

55. Ain't we tho lol

[whathehell]

87. Pssst

Ever hear of "Canadian Overshadowed Syndrome" ?

Some have it bad.

[whathehell]

86. A bigot and a troll

who hates everything "America" ...Just ignore him.

[yourpaljoey]

67. I recall that day quite well. I appreciate the telling of that.

[whathehell]

80. As do I,..and I remember

no "cowardice" or "charade '.

Since when is protecting one's children from possible attack an mac of "cowardice"?

[whathehell]

79. What "cowardice" of what "charade"? I was in 7th grade

when our President was assassinated....WTF are you talking about?

[whathehell]

81. So attempting to protect 11 year olds from possible harm is "cowardice?

What a sick, twisted ndividual you are.

[Lodestar]

48. And in this developing missile crisis, it seems the U.S. has preempted

any Cuban involvement by opening relations, perhaps ending the embargo (in future) and...... this?

The 'New Cuban Missile Crisis' Mystery Deepens
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/01/08/New-Cuban-Missile-Crisis-Could-Shuffle-GOP-s-Presidential-Cards
https://pjmedia.com/homeland-security/2016/01/21/the-new-cuban-missile-crisis-mystery-deepens/

[Duckhunter935]

84. Except these are not offensive missiles

Do some basic research

[Odin2005]

72. I doubt any Poles consider the US protecting them from Russia "American aggression".

[Codeine]

4. Go west young man.

Better believe it.

[tammywammy]

11. +1

[grasswire]

26. Geez, my family members are coming home from Romania tomorrow.

Humanitarian work in the villages there.

[tirebiter]

32. FDR started the Manhattan Project and Carter tried to invade Angola

when they went Marxist. Ultimately the special forces sent in were defeated by the Cuban Army sent to back up the Portuguese Marxist military government. In 1962 Fidel Castro intended to start a first strike atomic attack on the US but was held back by Kruschev. Nikita would not allow Cuban army personnel near the missiles This info is not to condemn FDR or Carter. They just had situations that needed to be dealt with like every other President with legitimate concerns. The October Missile Crisis was dealt with nobly. Iran-Contra was the work of crooks.

[braddy]

88. Whose Special forces were defeated in Angola?

[Lodestar]

33. The Cuban Missile Crisis was caused by the U.S.first placing Jupiter missiles

in Turkey and Italy. It was basically a post-WWII response by the U.S. to contain any future attempts by the USSR to spread communism. The USSR saw this as provocation and a threat to their security.
It's happening again....deja vu.

I repeat...the U.S. had placed Jupiter missiles in Turkey and Italy. Although it was kept from the public,
the deal that ended the Cuban Crisis was based on the mutual removal of those U.S. Jupiter
missiles in exchange for the removal of Soviet missiles from Cuba. This is the piece of our
history which still has not become well known.
So it seems the U.S. is provoking the Russians (then the USSR) with missiles near or on their
borders once again. Brilliant.....NOT. Of course this time the U.S. is attempting to pre-empt any Cuban involvement by reopening relations with that country and removing sanctions.

The practical effect of this Kennedy-Khrushchev Pact was that it effectively strengthened Castro's position in Cuba, guaranteeing that the U.S. would not invade Cuba. It is possible that Khrushchev only placed the missiles in Cuba to get Kennedy to remove the missiles from Italy and Turkey and that the Soviets had no intention of resorting to nuclear war if they were out-gunned by the U.S.[98] Because the withdrawal of the Jupiter missiles from NATO bases in Southern Italy and Turkey was not made public at the time, Khrushchev appeared to have lost the conflict and become weakened. The perception was that Kennedy had won the contest between the superpowers and Khrushchev had been humiliated. This is not entirely the case as both Kennedy and Khrushchev took every step to avoid full conflict despite the pressures of their governments. Khrushchev held power for another two years.[93]:102–105

The compromise embarrassed Khrushchev and the Soviet Union because the withdrawal of U.S. missiles from Italy and Turkey was a secret deal between Kennedy and Khrushchev. Khrushchev went to Kennedy thinking that the crisis was getting out of hand. The Soviets were seen as retreating from circumstances that they had started. Khrushchev's fall from power two years later was in part because of the Politburo embarrassment at both Khrushchev's eventual concessions to the U.S. and his ineptitude in precipitating the crisis in the first place. According to Dobrynin, the top Soviet leadership took the Cuban outcome as "a blow to its prestige bordering on humiliation."[99]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

[Alkene]

57. So where'd that peace dividend end up?

You know, now that the Cold War is over.

[TomVilmer]

66. Don't know - but you got it!

US military expenditure continued to decline in 2015. Since its most recent peak in 2010, US military expenditure has decreased by 21%, due to the withdrawal of most of its troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, and the impact of the 2011 Budget Control Act. Despite the downward trend in US spending over the past five years, the USA’s share of world military expenditure is still at 36%, nine times more than Russia - says SIPRI, Stockholm International Peace Research Institute.

[randr]

71. As long as the players like Putin and soon to be Trump have pawns

the game is on; and missiles and nukes are still the pawns of choice.
I predict that if Trump is elected we will see a major move by Putin into Eastern Europe. It will be his opening offer in the new world order and the Cold War will be rebranded as the New Deal II.

[bemildred]

70. Military bases are military targets.

Which is why I don't like to be anywhere near them.