New Physical Standards for Marine Recruits Overwhelmingly Weed Out Women

[Sgent]

Source: Yahoo News

In the wake of December's federally-mandated directive that opened all combat jobs to women, the United States Marine Corps established a new set of physical standards designed to weed out anyone who isn't physically up to par for such a position.

The Marines, which voiced the loudest objections to Defense Secretary Ash Carter's decision, put into place a new plan designed to be more inclusive.

But instead of leveling the playing field, the new standards have generated some shockingly disparate results: Of the recruits who took the test, 86% of the women failed compared to 3% of men.

...

When recruits fail the test, they're benched into Marine jobs that require less physical effort not on the front lines.



Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/physical-standards-marine-recruits-overwhelmingly-211710817.html?nhp=1

[jtuck004]

1. "they're benched..not on the front lines. " So they might as well piss on their career.

They will never make it to the top.

Designed to be just this.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

2. Only 3% of the men failed?

I thought the physical standards would weed out much more than that. Aren't the marines supposed to be the best of the best?

[hack89]

3. Pretty low standards if 97% of the men can pass. nt

[Sgent]

5. This is at the end of basic training

when my brother finished and I went to his graduation everyone was in near perfect shape -- well beyond the minimums needed to graduate.

[JVS]

38. Recruits are not randomly selected

It would be foolish to sign up if you aren't already fit.

[zenabby]

46. I'm guessing...

that if there is a flexibility test, most men might fail...are the tests only testing in areas where men are stronger? Is it really testing what is required on the field? Is it possible to require complimentary skills? I don't know, but just seems so traditionally male in way of thinking about strength.

[GummyBearz]

56. Lifting the 30 lbs ammunition can doesn't require flexibility

If they needed yoga instructors in the marines I'm sure they would find a way to get them in. It seems like they need people who can run 3 miles in 24min (I can do this and I suck at running), lift a 30 lbs ammunition bucket repeatedly, and probably pick up a 200 lbs wounded soldier and carry him to get patched up. It kinda makes sense. My job description has very specific required skills, so does theirs

[TipTok]

54. This is just bare bones minimum...

Look at the differences between the current standards for the Army test for men and women.

Huge gaps in pushups and the run....

[giftedgirl77]

4. The only standards posted are just for the PT test out of basic.

If that's what they're referring to they are listed as:

To pass the basic training tests, recruits must complete six pull-ups, run three miles in under 24:51 minutes and perform 60 lifts of a 30-pound ammunition can.

Plus a tactical portion.

As a recently retired female Soldier I will say I have no problem with this. I am 38 & permanently disabled & can still do all the physical stuff listed above. That's barely an 8 minute mile.

[whatthehey]

9. Hmm 60 x 30 shouldn't fail very fit females

depending on exactly what lift in what time I suppose. I'd have to say that could be a relevant test though. I would imagine loading ammunition into vehicles for example is pretty essential for a combat soldier.

[giftedgirl77]

11. Exactly, I firmly believe they should be required

to do the exact same tasks with the same tools & scores if they're going into a combat role.

For support jobs if they want a relaxed standard that's fine considering the duties aren't as demanding.

[scscholar]

31. But you're intentionally excluding women

That's the entire point of this article.

[giftedgirl77]

33. If one cannot perform at the same capacity as their battles

in a job that is life or death as a prerequisite then they should be excluded. If a female can't run an 8 min mile, do 6 pull ups or lift an ammo can repeatedly how in the hell is she going to pull herself over a wall, out of a rolled over vehicle or carry her wounded battle out of harms way?

[GummyBearz]

57. Thank you

Thank you for your perspective and thank you for your service

[One_Life_To_Give]

40. If they have to take a beach, the bullets won't care what gender one is

It ain't fair but it's not the job of the enemy to fight fair. While I hate to see women held back and hope it is truly necessary. Setting it too lenient will result only in an excess of women coming home in body bags should it be necessary to employ the Marines for what they are intended.

[LeftyMom]

12. Pull up tests exclude women.

Even most very fit women can't do them, it's a matter of physiological differences.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0

[whatthehey]

13. Did not know that. So is that movement necessary in a soldier?

Having never been one I dunno but I suppose it could be. Pulling oneself up over obstacles or barriers is likely to come up in urban settings where ersatz barricades or even war-damaged infrastructure could easily be placed in your way. Likely? Not a clue, just musing based on a few news reports from house to house raids in Iraq really. It's no service to waive that test if a person needs to be able to do what that physiological difference provides though is it?

[LeftyMom]

17. It's a weird movement. Not really many things IRL that require a similar motion.

Climbing a tree maybe? But even then in the real world you use your legs.

Going over barriers would generally require an overhand motion rather than an underhand one, and again you'd use your legs.

There really aren't a lot of non-contrived situations where your own weight is underneath you unsupported.

[anigbrowl]

29. I strongly disagree with you about this

Not about women in combat or the physio differences, just about 'not many things IRL that require' it.

I like to climb and I'm fairly small and nimble so I make a good spider. I've often wished burglary weren't illegal because I'd have been so good at it; over the years I've 'broken into' friends' houses on many occasions when they've locked themselves out. If there's an open window and it's not too far off the ground I'm a much better option than spending $200 with a locksmith But my climbing skills have been useful in more normal contexts like erecting scaffolding or working on roofing as well.

Now it's not that I'm super expert on climbing or military matters, but I am quite physically active and have a sensible aversion to incurring any injuries, because I don't want the discomfort or the expense of medical treatment. So while I am willing to shimmy up a drainpipe and then hang onto the windowsill with one arm while prying open your unlocked window with the other, I'm not willing to do any moves that I'm not totally sure or where I would be in danger if I were to slip or lose my grip.

I avoid leaving my weight unsupported and am always going to use my legs, not least because they're a lot stronger than my arms. But if you can't pull yourself up from that situation, then you screwed, and not in the fun way. Even when I go up a ladder, it's with the awareness that I might fall off and have to pull myself back on. I think it's very dangerous to fall into the trap of saying that because something is difficult or dangerous there is not much need for it anyway. We minimize the need for risky activities because of the difficulty and danger (otherwise houses would have ladders instead of stairs) but our choice to do this doesn't make the danger any less pressing when it's encountered, and needing to pull yourself up to greater safety doesn't strike me as at all unusual.

[jmowreader]

24. The Army doesn't seem to think so

The Army has push-ups, not pull-ups, on its PT test. Both genders do them.

Seriously guys, the most logical physical qualification test I took in the Army is the one you must do to graduate from signals intelligence analysis training: You must lift two five-gallon jerry cans full of water, one in each hand, and carry them 100 yards without dropping either one. This is relevant because MI soldiers in the field are required to lift and carry heavy things.

[Bonx]

23. I watched my 45 year old wife do eight recently.

[LeftyMom]

26. I can do them. Women fitter than I am can't. It's weight distribution and length of extremities.

[Xithras]

27. Bad science there.

I go to the gym 5 days a week. 5 days a week, I see women doing pullups, chinups and every other exercise a man can do. It requires dedication, and a willingness to consume a high protein diet and consistently engage in resistance exercises to promote testosterone production and muscle growth. Consuming vitamin C, zinc and magnesium, having regular sex, avoiding alcohol and eating more seed based fats also help to boost testosterone production and muscle growth. Women who are willing to do those things do just fine on the pullup bar.

There is nothing gender specific about pullups, it's simply an exercise that requires muscle mass and a lean body. Evolution has made it a bit tougher for women to build muscle mass, but it's entirely doable WITHOUT injuring yourself or doing drugs. My wife can do about 15 of them, and she's a 39 year old mother of three!

[giftedgirl77]

34. Bullshit....

6 pull-ups isn't a deal breaker & I know plenty of women that can knock out a hell of a lot more than 6.

[MillennialDem]

59. Pull ups are harder for larger people (all bodyweight exercises are). Not sure about how much

harder it is for women (usually smaller, but usually weaker upper body) vs men.

A 140 pound man is going to have a lot easier time doing pull ups than a 200 pound man, but the larger of the two will usually be able to carry/lift more overall.

[giftedgirl77]

60. Yeah I know & anybody that claims a woman can't do

6 pull ups has never seriously trained for any endurance sports.

[MillennialDem]

61. Of course, it just takes training and possibly weight loss. I could do 3 at 200 pounds. I can

almost eek one out, but not quite at 210.

[giftedgirl77]

62. Pretty much, I'm 145, 38 years old with arthritis in my elbows

& shoulders & can still do about 10.

[whatthehey]

6. The only real question

Is if the tests are relevant to the duties tested for. In other words if it fails people who would do poorly, and passes people who would do well, in that function. Given these pass/fails I'd suspect the tests focus on upper body strength. If that's a quintessential factor in what the Marines do in combat duty (I have no clue, although if I had to guess, once you can carry X pounds at Y speed for Z distance based on battlefield norms, I doubt it's THE most important thing) then the test is ok. If not, it's not. Gender equality is a fine goal, but it should not override all other goals in scenarios which are, quite literally, life and death.

[Yo_Mama]

21. Marine combat platoons carry and use heavy weights.

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/10/134421473/weight-of-war-soldiers-heavy-gear-packs-on-pain

Some degree of strength is needed. The thirty pounds comes from loaded ammo cans.

I think that most women who train could easily get to six pull-ups. I believe the old standard was ten.

[PersonNumber503602]

39. The argument that I've seen against that is that weapons and ammo shouldn't be designed with only

men in mind, and that they should design them to take into account women. Now i can see the logical errors in that line of thinking, but it is something that I suspect you'll see brought up. I haven't read through this thread all the way yet, so maybe it already has been. If not, you can search the topic here on DU and find that argument being made.

[Ilsa]

7. Here's the list:

To pass the basic training tests, recruits must complete six pull-ups, run three miles in under 24:51 minutes and perform 60 lifts of a 30-pound ammunition can.

Finally, recruits must also complete a series of activities that mimic those of combat, including belly crawls and grenade throws. 


I've done the run before. Three 8:15 miles shouldn't be a problem. I've always had a problem with pullups, though. I don't know how I'd fare with lifting 30 lbs sixty times. I'm guessing that I'd wear out, but it depends if they have a specific lift protocol.

I'm not sure how this is supposed to make the marines more gender inclusive.

[yeoman6987]

8. An 8 minute mile (approx with 3 miles in 23 minutes)is not difficult at all. No excuses in failing.

Take a stop watch and go out and run everyday eventually you will hit the easy time if you don't the first time.

[mwrguy]

10. This will not stand

President Clinton (45) will fix it.

[Taitertots]

15. What will she do? Make women have lower standards?

I'm 30+ out of shape and I could easily do those tasks. It's just biology. If anything this just means they need to make the women train harder.

[LeftyMom]

19. It's the pull ups. You can't train women into being able to do them, mostly.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/?_r=0

I can do them just fine but I have short extremities relative to my (generally small) frame. Women in better shape than me but with lankier builds can't do one even one, no matter how much they train for the test.

Taller men with long extremities tend to have a less severe version of the same problem.

[Yo_Mama]

22. Odd, I know I'm old, but several of my gym teachers made us do them.

And we did. Yes I am female and so were my friends.

I would have had NO problem meeting that particular standard at eighteen.

[LeftyMom]

28. They made us do them for fitness testing. I could do as many as the boys.

Most of the girls could do at most one really iffy one, including a lot of girls who were competitive athletes.

My only athletic pursuit in high school was dragging boxes of evidence around at debate tournaments without scuffing my pumps.

But I have a small build and comparatively short extremities, which is the common thread in most outlier women who can do them well.

It's a bad measurement: most fit women can't do it well and it doesn't measure a functional, real-world movement.

[Yo_Mama]

30. And more refutation from a more knowledgeable source

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caitlin-constantine/womens-difficulty-with-pu_b_4569911.html

If you don't train for it, you can't do it. But most women can train for it. I think they need to revise their training.

[TipTok]

55. Uh huh...

[GummyBearz]

58. Good form and all

I used to be good at pull ups when I was in my 20s, and I don't think I ever did more than 15 at a time

[jmowreader]

20. Tell the Marines to fix their female PT program?

They really need to do that: the Marine Physical Fitness Test has different events for men and women.

Men:
Pull-ups (maximum score is 20)
Crunches
Three Mile Run

Women:
Flexed Arm Hang (maximum score is 70 seconds - you start in the same position you'd be in if you'd just pulled yourself up in a pull-up, and the time ends when your arms go all the way straight or you fall off the bar)
Crunches
Three Mile Run

Yes, women are failing the PT test that measures pull-ups - BECAUSE THEY DON'T DO THEM NOW! By comparison, almost all male Marines can knock out six pull-ups easily.

Oh...the Ammo Can Lift? That's part of the Combat Fitness Test:
1. 1/2-mile run in boots and utility pants
2. Ammo can lift: pick up the can in both hands with the handle facing away from you. Bring it to chest height. When the time starts, begin lifting the can straight over your head and lowering it to chest level as many times as you can in two minutes.
3. Maneuver Under Fire Drill:

[yurbud]

43. I got tired watching that.

[jmowreader]

45. It's a little like the Canadian Army PT test

The military does some things because they always have. The PT test that sees how fast you can run two or three miles, even though you will never do that in combat, is a good example. The only advantage the current test has is you need no equipment (or equipment the unit has anyway, like pull-up bars) to conduct it. Adding a test like "climb a ladder to a second floor window and crawl through the window" would fuck US Army Garrison Pusan, Korea, where there are no two-story buildings. "March six miles with a 30-pound pack" would cost units like Defense Finance and Accounting Center, which issues no field gear, lots of money buying packs and helmets.

I like this new USMC test...it would be nice if they had the courage to get rid of the other one.

[LanternWaste]

14. Sergeant Oktyabrskaya was unable to perform any push-ups at all.

Sergeant Mariya Oktyabrskaya (tank driver/commander, tank ace, 15 tracked kills between Oct 1943 and Jan 1944) was unable to perform any push-ups at all. I'm guessing a lot of her company were happy she wasn't benched into a job that required less effort not on the front lines.

(Utopia in Power by Mikhail Heller)

[Skittles]

36. I am almost 60 and can do multiple pushups on my toes

wtf was wrong with her?

[Ash_F]

47. The Soviets were starving and fighting for their lives.

Probably most soldiers, male or female, were not in gym shape.

[gladium et scutum]

37. Not unusual for the Sovie Army of the WWII era

about 25% of Soviet tank crews had a women on the crew. Soviet Army women repaired tanks, commanded tanks, commanded tank companies and tank battalions. The Soviet Army employed women as snipers. Soviet infantry units often had women field medics, Soviet artillery crews often had women crew members. The one think the Soviet Army did not do during WWII was issue a women a PPSH 41 and assign her to an infantry unit.

[treestar]

44. Yes, I think the "standards" are probably set with men in mind

and that different standards for women do not have to be considered "lower" except by sexists for whom any ability women excelled in must be less valuable in this context. In short the military should prove the standards match the job to be done and truly measure whether these women could do the combat tasks. Combat does not involve chin ups.

[Android3.14]

16. Darn those genes

I'm unsurprised. I sure hope the Marines resist the pressure to lower their physical standards for combat troops, especially shock troops.

There are other branches of the military where people less physically capable can find niches in combat roles.

[Yo_Mama]

18. These don't seem like high standards - most physically fit young women should be able to meet them

To pass the basic training tests, recruits must complete six pull-ups, run three miles in under 24:51 minutes and perform 60 lifts of a 30-pound ammunition can.

Finally, recruits must also complete a series of activities that mimic those of combat, including belly crawls and grenade throws.

They've probably dropped the standards too low if almost all the males are passing. Running a mile in eight minutes is just not that hard. Six pull-ups? Combat requires a certain degree of physical strength. You have to run around carrying heavy weapons.

[NotHardly]

25. What are the standards and what is new, would be two good questions to ask ...

I see lots of comments but no links to something(s) that would provide what is old and what is new about the standards.

One might also find interesting the following...
[link:http://|
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/weight-of-war-gear-that-protects-troops-also-injures-them/ ][link:http://|
Military studies acknowledge that combat soldiers are carrying too much weight — often more than 100 pounds. These loads have contributed to soaring numbers of injuries, and higher costs in disability payments.

or 'The Modern Warrior's Combat Load' (PDF)
thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf

[AngryAmish]

32. Supplement women Marines with testosterone at about double the average level for toung men

That will help them build the muscle needed to pass the test. Have them start taking Labour two months before basic.

[GOLGO 13]

41. Hahahaha. No.

We need God's perfect killing machines now more than ever.

[Oneironaut]

42. Not sure why this matters. What are they going to do, lower the standards?

You need a certain amount of strength to be a soldier. I don't think lowering the standards would be a good idea at all.

[crim son]

50. I agree.

Denying basic differences between the sexes is absurd.

[Ash_F]

48. I bet the pull-ups test caught a lot of women off guard.

Once word gets around, female recruits will start training months before enlisting and we will see higher success rates.

[sofa king]

51. That's the answer right there.

Upper body strength is one of the key differences between men and women, controlled in part by levels of estrogen and testosterone (though I won't pretend to know that for sure).

But once the word is out, that fail rate is going to drop from 86% to 15% in a few short years, as female Marines perfect their diet and training regimens.

They'll be fine because women kick ass.

[Ash_F]

53. Men tend to have broader shoulders which is probably the main advantage.

But I think anyone can get to 6 pull ups as long as they have a few months to train. I don't think this recent batch of recruits had that opportunity.

[One_Life_To_Give]

49. Are they trying to pass or is it a don't care if I pass or fail?

Do these numbers include people who have no interest in taking a "Combat Position" or making a lifetime career out of it? The more I read this it seems that it includes people who probably don't care much if they pass the Combat portion as long as they are good enough for the job/specialty that they joined the Marines to do.

[Duckhunter935]

52. What has changed? So just what is new?