Rights groups decry abduction and torture in eastern Ukraine

[uawchild]

Source: The Irish Times

The Ukrainian security services and Moscow-backed separatists in the east of the country are guilty of illegal detention, secret imprisonment and torture of civilians, according to two major international rights groups.

Ukraine’s pro-western authorities have repeatedly denied such practices, but in May a United Nations panel cut short a visit to the country, saying it had been denied access to places of suspected secret detention and torture
.
The UN team’s suspicions appear to be confirmed in a report that Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch released on Thursday, which depicts a hidden, dirty war raging in and around separatist-held areas of eastern Ukraine.

Both government and separatist forces “have held civilians in prolonged, arbitrary detention, without any contact with the outside world, including with their lawyers or families”, the report reads.

Read more: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/rights-groups-decry-abduction-and-torture-in-eastern-ukraine-1.2729799

---

"The report alleges that Ukraine’s security service, known as the SBU, is operating secret and illegal detention facilities in several locations in eastern Ukraine, near a conflict zone where almost 10,000 people have died in more than two years of fighting."

Again, that's Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch saying this.

It's refreshing to see an even handed appraisal of the situation in eastern Ukraine, but will any other news source carry this story? I'll keep looking... nope, no major media so far.

[DetlefK]

1. Your posts are weird.

You always reflexively side with Russia. It's hard to tell whether you are an actual person or one of those russian trolls.

You express that you are happy about an even-handed look at the situation, yet you focus on the wrong-doings of one side while ignoring the wrong-doings of the other side?
Where is your outrage about the torture committed by the separatists?



And Human Rights Watch posted these news 10 hours ago. That's a bit early to imply that there is some media cover-up.

[uawchild]

2. You didn't even read the OP did you?

For you to say this:

"You express that you are happy about an even-handed look at the situation, yet you focus on the wrong-doings of one side while ignoring the wrong-doings of the other side? Where is your outrage about the torture committed by the separatists?"

When MY OP says this:

"The Ukrainian security services and Moscow-backed separatists in the east of the country are guilty of illegal detention, secret imprisonment and torture of civilians, according to two major international rights groups."

AND this:

"Both government and separatist forces “have held civilians in prolonged, arbitrary detention, without any contact with the outside world, including with their lawyers or families”, the report reads."

IS SIMPLY ABSURD. Good lord.

I PRAISED those humans rights groups for being EVEN HANDED in their criticism of BOTH SIDE, good grief.

READ the article, it criticizes both sides. Was it the added paragraph, the 6th in the article, in the comment section that set you off? GOOD LORD. IT'S ALL IN A SINGLE POST. We are only allowed to quote 4 paragraphs in the article section of LBN.

But fine, let me quote more of the OP for you:

"One interviewee, referred to as “Vadim” (39), said he was detained by Ukrainian forces for more than six weeks and beaten and tortured while being questioned about alleged links to the separatists.
When he was released and returned home to separatist-controlled Donetsk, he was immediately seized by militants who held him incommunicado for more than two months and beat him on suspicion of being an SBU agent."

I can't quote the entire OP article over again here, so why don't YOU read it and quote any sections you desire and readers can judge how even handed you would be being?

[DetlefK]

3. re

- You quote the article and your comment on the article focuses on one side of the issue, thus providing additional emphasis to one side of the issue in pragmatics while treating both sides equally on syntax.
- Lie-by-omission is a standard-procedure of propagandists and can be found e.g. on Russia Today in regular manner.
- AFAIR you have a habit of defending Russia in arguments.
- By implying that there is some media cover-up, despite this story being less than 12 hours old, you are creating a controversy where there is none. If one were to suspect malice, one might come to the conclusion that this were to portray yourself/your cause as a victim to provoke sympathy and grant yourself more credence.



As I said: weird.

[uawchild]

4. Looks at calendar....

Last edited Thu Jul 21, 2016, 05:29 PM - Edit history (1)

I had to check the calendar, NOPE, it's NOT the 1950's... Had to be sure in light of your last post. lol

Honestl, I should have stopped replying to you at the first whiff of you McCarthyism, when you said this about me:

"It's hard to tell whether you are an actual person or one of those russian trolls."

All because I called the OP article about human rights abuse in eastern Ukraine even handed?

Well, that was my mistake, oh well.

[DetlefK]

7. No. This is Putin's Russia.

Reports of paid russian trolls are coming up over and over again at least since 2012 and including russian newspapers. And there was another one just this month.

[uawchild]

10. Oh, wait, I remember you now

You were the poster that didn't know that the neo-nazi Azov Battalion was part of the Ukrainian National Guard. Ah, yes. OK then, nice chatting with you. I am done. Cheers.

[DetlefK]

14. And you are the guy who ran away when I showed that Russia has no business lecturing on morals.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027999291

You make apologies for Stalin in post 66.

And you somehow lost interest in the conversation when I brought up 4 reasons why Russia is by no means innocent in post 106.
- ethnic cleansing of Tatars in Crimea
- discrimination of native Caucasians in mainland-Russia
- legalized discrimination against homosexuals
- ability to destroy any NGO without hearing or trial



I'll eagerly await how the russian press reports that Ukraine and ukrainian separatists are both torturing. You wanna take a guess which part of this story they will highlight?

[uawchild]

15. Sure ok uh huh

You won those discussions just like you prevailed in this thread too, hmmm?

lol. Ok lol

[DetlefK]

17. I have won nothing, because we didn't have an argument.

You make one-sided posts that AFAIR consistently show Russia in a positive light. When challenged, you deflect.

Honestly, I don't know whether you are just one of those guys here on DU who have become so frustrated with the Republicans that they reflexively adopt an anti-US stance.
I also don't know whether you are one of those russian trolls we keep reading about since 2012. Your linguistic tools match those of a guy with an agenda and yet you insist that you have no agenda.

I am confused and curious. Because your posts are weird.

[uawchild]

18. More McCartyism?

Yep. It's all you had to offer in this thread.

Yet more babbling about agendas and Russian trolls

Good lord

[DetlefK]

19. It's not a conspiracy-theory if Russians are reporting on paid trolls of the russian government.

http://observer.com/2012/02/vladimir-putins-army-of-blog-trolls/
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/propaganda-aus-russland-putins-trolle-1.1997470

And many, many more, including reports in the russian Nowaja Gaseta. You are hereby invited to inform yourself on this subject.

[uawchild]

20. goal posts moving?

Lol yep.

Nice way to dodge the accusations you were throwing around about me, hmmm?
Lol

[DetlefK]

21. Let's recap:

- Contrary to your repeated denials, russian trolls aren't fiction. They exist.
- You use the same linguistic forms of expression as someone with a hidden agenda, while claiming to have no agenda.
- You consistently try to paint Russia in a positive light.

Make of that what you will.

[uawchild]

22. Lets recap your McCarthyism:

This story STILL hasn't been picked up by any major US media, has it? NO.

The question is WHY isn't it being given such exposure? Our media doesn't want the whole truth out?

But why do I bother to keep pointing out the context of the OP -- that both sides are violating civil rights in eastern Ukraine?

YOU certainly don't want to discuss the subject matter in the OP article, you seem desperate to avoid doing so.

Honestly, all you have bought to this thread has been consistent McCarthyism, as you once again demonstrated in your post here.

Lets quote some of your comments about me:

"You always reflexively side with Russia."

"It's hard to tell whether you are an actual person or one of those russian trolls."

"Lie-by-omission is a standard-procedure of propagandists and can be found e.g. on Russia Today in regular manner."

"You make apologies for Stalin"

"I also don't know whether you are one of those russian trolls we keep reading about since 2012. Your linguistic tools match those of a guy with an agenda and yet you insist that you have no agenda."

"You use the same linguistic forms of expression as someone with a hidden agenda, while claiming to have no agenda."

"You consistently try to paint Russia in a positive light."

OMF Looking at all of YOUR BILGE in one place is simply mind blowing.

And WHAT does any of that have to do with human rights abuses by BOTH sides in eastern Ukraine?
I have bothered to reply to you just to elicit more of these McCarthyisms from you, allowing you to expose your self and your, dare I use the word, "agenda" -- which honestly seems to be some brand of Russophobia.

You have REAPTEDLY said "you try to paint Russia in a positive light". First, what would THAT have to do with the even handed OP article on human rights abuses in eastern Ukraine. Second, you seem up set that I am could find anything positive to say about Russia -- that's almost textbook Russophobia.

But let me call you out, this last time, on your BIGGEST LIE, "you make apologies for Stalin". WOAH.

That's a whooper of a lie.

QUOTE me making apologies for Stalin, you can't. Don't give evasive links, just CUT AND PASTE my apologies for STALIN right here in your next post.

You can't do THAT because you are simply lying here. Go ahead, prove me wrong, post my APOLOGIES for STALIN.

Want to make a bet its going to be about some lame poll that tries to claim Russians still love stalin? I asked to see THAT ACTUAL POLL, because I bet the Russian comments were along the lines of "Stalin was a monster bur he saved us from a worst monster, Hitler". For god's sake even Russia Today says no one would want to go back and live under Stalin.

But go ahead now, post what you claim are MY apologies I MADE about Stalin. I DARE you. Good grief.

[DetlefK]

23. Neither has it been picked up by Russia Today. Is russian media part of the western conspiracy?

For the n-th time: My issue is that you pretend to have no agenda while giving emphasis to one side. You report both, but you give emphasis to one side.
Many on DU have an agenda, me included. You could at least be so honest to admit it.

I have never expressed interest or lack of interest in discussing the article quoted in your OP. My issue has been, from the beginning, the way you frame the article with linguistic tricks.

And you have once again, in this thread, demonstrated your consistent defence of Russia by denying the existence of paid russian trolls despite them being public knowledge since 2012.

[uawchild]

24. STILL moving the goal posts?

"And you have once again, in this thread, demonstrated your consistent defence of Russia by denying the existence of paid russian trolls despite them being public knowledge since 2012."

Going back to dodging your previous allegations about ME? Seems that way, avoidance is all you have left.

lol I just posted all the BILGE where you called me a russian troll. lol

Good lord, that was the post you are replying to. Nothing gets thru your McCarthyism. Nothing. lol

[uawchild]

26. APPARENTLY NOT

Seems a major independent Russian paper HAS picked up the story, The Moscow Times:

Human Rights Groups Report Detention, Torture of Civilians in Ukraine

Both Russian-backed separatists and Ukrainian authorities have illegally detained and tortured civilians in the country’s war-torn east, human rights groups reported Thursday.

Charities Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued a joint report revealing that both sides had executed “enforced disappearances.” Detainees were “seized off the streets,” denied medical attention, beaten and abused and “cut off from family and lawyers.”

Ukrainian security services (SBU) allegedly operated an unofficial detention compound in Kharkiv, where as many as 16 people may remain detained without any official records. Local separatist in Donetsk and Luhansk operate “without any checks and balances,” routinely “depriving” detainees “of their rights,” and “leaving them helpless,” the report said.

The 56-page report details 18 different cases, in which almost all detainees discussed being offered in “prisoner exchanges.” The groups expressed “serious concern” that such civilians are being used as “currency” between the two sides.

“In almost all the cases we investigated, captors told victims that they were being offered for prisoner exchanges. These stories gives us strong grounds to believe that both sides could be using civilians as “fodder” for potential exchanges. Such practices could constitute hostage taking, a war crime,” said Tanya Lokshina, a senior researcher for Europe and Central Asia at Human Rights Watch.
https://themoscowtimes.com/news/human-rights-groups-report-detention-torture-of-civilians-in-ukraine-54671

THAT's from an independent paper in Russia. So, once again you are wrong.

Please post one article on this from a major US paper, is any of our media covering the story yet? It does not seem so.

[DetlefK]

29. good enough?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-torture.html

And still nothing on Russia Today...

[uawchild]

31. Where's your "proof" I made apologiesFOR STALIN?

C'mon show me your "proof". You don't get to slink away from that.

I posted the Moscow Times link too but you seemed to just have ignored that too

You simply have ZERO credibility.
Cut and paste your "proof" that I made SPOLOGIES FOR STALIN

DO IT NOW. of course, you simply can't because you are lying.

Good bye and good riddance to you.

[uawchild]

27. You forgot to post your "proof" that I made apologies for Stalin

Let's not let that BIG LIE of yours slip by.

CUT AND PASTE the quotes of me making apologies for Stalin, as YOU have accused ME of.

You can't because you are simply lying about that.

PUT UP or SHUT UP.

Will you apologize for such a blatant lie? No, you will slink off and post distractions.

Your Russophobia knows no bounds, apparently.

[DetlefK]

30. Please allow me to quote you:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027999291#post66

Obviously 20,000,000 million civilian deaths

Are skewering there perspective some.

So it is a matter of Stalin was a monster but he saved us from a worse monster, HITLER.

Good lord that RT article you linked says as much!

They do have a point, somewhat. Stalin did hold it all together in the end, even though his purges weakened the Red army before the war.


Stalin killed scores of fellow politicians, he installed a regime of denunciation and terror against his own people, he set up a system of death-camps ("Gulags&quot to systematically kill domestic opponents, he invaded Ukraine and orchestrated the famine that led to millions of deaths there ("Holodomor&quot ...

Counter-example: Remember how Hitler got the german industry roaring again after the Great Depression, how he lifted the german spirit again after Germany getting crushed by the unrealistically and unfairly hard reparation-demands of the Treaty of Versailles, how he installed social programs to support families and mothers, how his government was a major supporter of the "Autobahn"-project, how his scientists made ground-breaking progress in rocket-engineering, how his personality kept the Third Reich together even in the face of an unwinnable war...
If I were to post that the people worshipping Hitler do have a point because of all these arguments, would you accuse me of making apologies for Hitler?

Why do we have to weigh Stalin and Hitler against each other? He was a monster and he was a monster. But it's important to clear up who was the bigger monster so we can determine whom it's okay to worship.



-----------------------------------

- "You always reflexively side with Russia." ; "You consistently try to paint Russia in a positive light." ; "You make apologies for Stalin"

- "Lie-by-omission is a standard-procedure of propagandists and can be found e.g. on Russia Today in regular manner." ; "Your linguistic tools match those of a guy with an agenda and yet you insist that you have no agenda." ; "You use the same linguistic forms of expression as someone with a hidden agenda, while claiming to have no agenda."

- "It's hard to tell whether you are an actual person or one of those russian trolls." ; "I also don't know whether you are one of those russian trolls we keep reading about since 2012.



1. Your posts speak for your views on Russia.

2. The language of your posts reveal that you do have a partisan view of some sort.
For the (n+1)-th time: In the OP you post both sides of the topic but you emphasize only one side of the topic: The side that you agree with.
I would have no problem with that, except that at the same time you keep trying to portray yourself as neutral on the issue.
The difference between you and me is that while we both have agendas, you keep denying that you have one.

3. The pattern of your posts matches the pattern a troll would have. And to counter my speculation, you ridicule the idea of trolls, even though there are reports from 2012-to-present that the russian government uses paid trolls to influence internet-forums in their favour.






If you do not want to be mistaken for a troll, don't use the same language as a propagandist.

[uawchild]

32. Lol so you had no proof

Lol

Just as I thought. Spin away

I didn' see ANY apogogy for Sralin in any of your stream of bilge

Thanks for demonstrating classic svoidabce and yet more McCarthyisn

That's all you offered for your last. Six or so posts here. Lol

You were asked to simply cut and paste your "proof" that I made apologies for Stalin. And all you did was try to spin me discussing a poll.

And you had to even bury THAT WEEK BS of yours in a mile long post to hide your lack of proof.

From now on my only reply to you will be to demand to see your "proof" that I made apologies for STALIN.

Keep lying about me. It exposes your true self.

[DetlefK]

34. As you don't comment on the content of my posts, this is my last post in this thread.

I attack your language and you deflect.

I bring up the topic of trolls and you deny their existence despite proof.

I quote you and you claim that I didn't quote you:
- You mentioned how "20,000,000 million civilian deaths" "skew the perspective" when it comes to Stalin.
- How Stalin was a monster but how that has to be seen in comparison to another monster.
- And then, at the end, you bring up a supposedly redeeming quality of Stalin.
Yes, that actually counts as making apologies for Stalin.



See you next time.

[uawchild]

35. You just even distorted your OWN quotes

Lol

You have been exposed.

I never made APOLOGIES FOR STALIN

YOU are even reduced to mangling your own "proof" in your last post. Lol

You CANNOT just quote me making apologies for STALIN because that never happened

POST A QUOTE OF ME making apologies for STALIN.

Better yet stop lying and just slink off, you have embarrassed yourself enough by continuing to lie about me.

[JennyHot]

28. good point raised

good one

[uawchild]

9. No major media yet has picked up this story yet

So far only our state run Radio Free Europe mentions it, with their own "viewpoint" of course.

But you are right, what's 12 hours in a news cycle these days.

Let's see if our major media actually does report on this sometime soon.

[newthinking]

5. This has been going on from the start.

I think that funding makes HR groups avoid focusing too much attention on reporting adverse facts in the midst of war propaganda campaigns. Maybe they get caught up in "end justifies the means", that one group is being said to be "on our side" and thus this is just temporary and they will change. But I think we know that when we allow these things to be hidden from view they just get worse.

Good they are finally bringing more attention to it. Eventually, once the air clears, it will become obvious that the current regime in Ukraine is far more backwards and aggressive than we have wanted them to appear.

This is in no way a reflection on the Ukrainian people. The parties in power were never supported by a majority (the last election was won through fear, lack of choice, and disenfranchising opposing politics and politicians) and in the current environment advocating for change can get one jail time or worse.

[newthinking]

6. A Confusing and Misleading Human Rights Report by UN Observers in Ukraine

Last week, the United Nations Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) released another in a long line of reports purporting to provide an overview of the human rights situation in Ukraine. This latest report is titled “Accountability for killings in Ukraine from January 2014 to May 2016”.

The report is 20 pages long with 31 additional pages of appendix examining “Cases of violations or abuses of the right to life in Ukraine from January 2014 to May 2016”. A press release by the UN body summarizes the content of the report.

The OHCHR report is another outlandish collection of selected facts making a strong inference that a large part of the “abuses to the right to life” it examines are the fault of the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics and their self-defense forces.

As with past reports, the OHCHR makes an equivalency between, on the one hand, the governing regime in Kyiv which is bound by all of the international conventions on human rights which previous Ukrainian government signed onto and, on the other hand, the people’s republics and armed forces of Donetsk and Lugansk which are not so bound. The Donetsk and Lugansk republics cannot sign on to international human rights conventions because they are shunned and unrecognized by most international bodies… including the OHCHR!

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/07/21/a-confusing-and-misleading-human-rights-report-by-un-observers-in-ukraine/

[PachobelsCannon]

11. Whenever a country goes to war against its own citizens its going to be nasty.

It is telling that most of the victims are in the east and the Kiev pro Nazi battalions seem to get a free pass in the US media.

[uawchild]

12. Gratz on your first post!

Last edited Thu Jul 21, 2016, 09:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Welcome to DU.

Gee you posted here in this thread 3 minutes after joining DU. Wowzers.

Again, welcome.

[PachobelsCannon]

16. This issue is close to me. I have family in Poland who lived through the Holocaust.

What does "Wowzers" have to do with that?

[gopiscrap]

13. welcome

I like your name. I love classical music

[Socal31]

25. If you haven't heard the story of the VICE news reporter being openly kidnapped and held...

It is surreal.

[bemildred]

33. Civil wars always get extra nasty. nt