Hot Air Balloon Carrying 16 People Crashes in Texas; Likely No Survivors

[MowCowWhoHow III]

Source: NBC

Federal officials said a hot air balloon carrying at least 16 people caught on fire and crashed in Central Texas on Saturday.

Caldwell County Sheriff’s Office said there doesn't appear to be any survivors.

"The balloon was occupied and it does not appear at this time that there were any survivors of the crash," Caldwell County Sheriff Daniel Law said in a statement. "Investigators are determining the number and the identities of victims at this time."

Lynn Lunsford with the Federal Aviation Administration said in a statement that the accident happened about 8:40 a.m. Saturday near Lockhart, Texas, when the hot air balloon crashed into a pasture.

Read more: http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/national-international/Hot-air-balloon-crashes-Texas--388742122.html

---

Texas hot air balloon crashes with 16 on board

A hot air balloon with 16 people on board has crashed in the US state of Texas, local reports say.

The balloon came down near Lockhart, south of the city of Austin, after catching fire. It is not known whether there are any injuries or fatalities.

A Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) statement said the balloon came down in a field at about 07:40 (12:40 GMT).

FAA investigators are on their way. The National Transportation Safety Board will eventually take over the inquiry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36933150

[ananda]

1. Officials say there are no survivors.

That was on breaking news.

[LittleGirl]

2. 16 on board?

That's unusual isn't it? I mean that most of the hot air balloons I've seen only hold a handful including the pilot.

[citood]

3. Seems like alot of people for a balloon basket

[Major Nikon]

4. The ones that carry passengers for hire sometimes have much larger capacities

Some will handle even more than 16.

[LittleGirl]

5. I didn't think any of them

held that many. The only balloons I've seen barely hold 3 including the pilot. I hope it's not too serious. ugh.

[Major Nikon]

6. Most balloons you see don't routinely carry passengers for hire

http://www.cameronballoons.co.uk/products/passenger-flying/z-type

[LittleGirl]

8. a family friend

had a balloon business for years and his only held about 3 people. Just my experience. That link shows a HUGE basket. wow. Thanks.

[jtuck004]

9. More people, more profit. Bigger, better, faster.

And I would bet there isn't as much regulation as there should be.

Then again, it's Texas. Where deep is for oil wells, not thought. That's for suckers.

[MicaelS]

11. 16 people are dead and you make nasty comments?

You can take your Texas bashing and put it with the rest of the garbage.

[jtuck004]

12. There is a reason they built it and flew it there. The regulations let them.

That could not happen in about half the states.

What is nasty is that Texas let them get away with it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

13. That's just stupid.

There are balloons that carry people all over the place. Where I live, you see them pretty much every day, and I'm nowhere near Texas.

You're just using this tragedy to shit-talk Texas, which is ghoulish.

[jtuck004]

15. Ghoulish is all those people dead that didn't need to be.

The state putting out new textbooks that seek the lowest common denominator. They elected Rick Perry, who helped them party in the idea that intelligence and regulation are for those other people.

There are two and four person balloons all over the place here. But when you move into taking other people's children and families along for your ride to disaster, they put a trust in you that may or may not be warranted.

That's why we have commercial aviation regulations, and why this had to happen in one of the few states where it could.


Oh yeah - I'm from there, so I can have any god damn opinion about the place I want. I earned it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

16. Nonsense without data or context

There are large capacity balloon excursions in plenty of places. I'm glad you aren't responsible for the investigation, as it would already be over.

[jtuck004]

19. Not over, but I have no illusions that when they start pulling paper they will find that 16 people

didn't need to die.

You have your opinion from where ever. I have mine from living there. Now I have yours, and others.

Thank you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

21. I was born and raised there, thanks.

Can you please comment on the other accidents of similar size that happened in other places not called Texas?

[uhnope]

62. Texas-bashing is a subset of America-bashing, wishing pain on Americans

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1017&pid=284648

[former9thward]

39. Hot air balloons are governed by FEDERAL regulations not state.

So much for your knee jerk state bashing.

https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/balloons/balloons_regs/

[trixie]

61. Not so unusual for large baskets

From the Wall Street Journal:

Large sightseeing balloons such as the one that went down in Texas on Saturday can carry 20 or more passengers per flight. But so many fatalities are unusual in accidents, partly because many balloons carry fewer people.

Seems like regulatory problems.

[PersonNumber503602]

64. These Texans in Australia...

[mahatmakanejeeves]

23. Is not the operation of balloons regulated on a Federal level?

FAA Regulations & Policies Regarding Balloons

Please put snarky reply in the space provided here ---> <---.

[Major Nikon]

24. That's just not correct

The FAA regulates balloons as well as fixed wing and helicopter operations at the federal level. Commercial operations for any of these things are regulated more stringently than for private operations.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

44. I wonder if there is any state regulations for amusement rides.

(Not to get involved in the rest of this thread)

Can a state even regulate?

[Major Nikon]

45. The FAA regulates aviation

States are extremely limited on what they can regulate in regards to aviation. I have a commercial pilot certificate issued from the FAA. The state of Texas or any other has virtually nothing to do with what I can or can't do with it.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

49. I know you are a pilot. So am I.

I'm just curious if there is any extra layers of state regulation on amusement type rides. Can a state even regulate? I would guess no.

It's a general curiosity. Not really about this case.

My partner's dad was a commercial pilot. He had a charter business and flight school/fbo and sold Cessnas.

He was no fan of balloons or helicopters. I was really surprised when registered his lack of enthusiasm when he found out my partner and his sister took a helicopter tour of the Grand Canyon.

It's not like he was personally afraid of helicopters. He took one in trade once and taught himself to fly it. He got the manual out and was flying it around the airport. His helicopter instructor buddy freaked out and told him not to go too high until they were able to do autorotation training. Lol.

[Major Nikon]

50. Very little

If you are doing something criminal like flying drugs, flying drunk, operation of an aircraft without a federal pilot certificate, etc., then some state laws are going to apply. States can regulate how and when you can take land or take off from public roads. States can fine you if you aren't using approved fuels. Beyond those things, there really isn't much the state regulates.

[TexasTowelie]

57. To the best of my knowledge, Texas does not provide further oversight on balloon rides

since it is regulated by the NTSB. However, as someone who used to work with the insurance department I can assure you that the department does have regulations regarding the operation of other amusement rides such as those operating at fairgrounds.

[KatyaR]

26. Nope.

Balloons are federally regulated, just like airplanes. Pilots must be licensed just like airplane pilots and must maintain training to keep their license.

[jtuck004]

31. Yup. I wonder if the rules allow for commercial travel, 16 people, on a balloon?

But that's the pilot. You also have the licensing of ground operations, the actual business, etc.

It implies a certain amount of judgement and responsibility. Yet it's not difficult to find one of these crashed every year. Relative to how few are actually flown (in comparison to planes). That's not a good safety record for commercial travel. 16 people - you have to wonder about who thought this up.

But nothing about the requirements of a vehicle. Just because you have a pilot's license does not qualify you in a vehicle. You still have to qualify on the plane, and it has to be a safe vehicle for commercial travel. I can find no federal requirement for that, nor for limiting any stupid idea about how many kids and adults you can strap to the bottom of a balloon to test it.

We shall see...


**********************************
Balloon Pilot's License
...

Subpart E -- Commercial Pilots

1. The age requirement for a commercial pilot certificate is 18 years.
2. Read, speak and understand the English language.
3. No medical certificate required. Same as paragraph 3 above.
4. The applicant must pass a more advanced written test on the subject matter listed in paragraph 4 above, additional operating procedures relating to commercial operations, and those duties required of a flight instructor.
5. Advanced training must be received from an authorized instructor including those items listed in paragraph 5 above plus emergency recovery from a terminal velocity descent.
6. The applicant for a commercial certificate must have at least 35 hours of flight time as a pilot, of which 20 hours must be in balloons, 6 under the supervision of an instructor, 2 solo flights, 2 flights of at least one duration, and one flight to 5000 feet above the take-off point.
7. The holder of a commercial pilot's certificate may operate a balloon for hire and may give flight instruction.

http://www.balloonsovercharlotte.com/htm/pilotreq.htm

[Major Nikon]

43. Balloons used for commercial operations have the same inspection requirements as other aircraft

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

53. That is incorrect. The Federal Aviation Administration regulates ballooning

like any other form of aviation, and state law can't pre-empt federal regulations. The regulations governing hot-air ballooning are entirely federal and are therefore the same in all states. Balloon pilots have to have FAA-issued lighter than air licenses and the certification and operation of hot-air balloons is governed by Federal Aviation Regulations parts 91 and 43. http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v03%20tech%20admin/chapter%2012/03_012_002.htm

[jtuck004]

55. State law cannot pre-empt. They can ignore, let people operate, get their folks killed

by inaction, negligence.

I looked through those regs, and I didn't read where they told them to string wires all around the area, the better to blow them up with.

So while you are correct, the people are dead. And all they had to do was buy a ticket. No security, no background, and take-offs and landing in a field when it isn't being used by cows.

All those official sounding numbers and it is run like the tilt-a-whirl.

[Statistical]

67. Why would there be security and background checks for balloon rides?

Even if you believe their should be a TSA checkpoint before boarding a hot air balloon that would once again be the jurisdiction of the federal govt (not Texas).

[jtuck004]

68. Well, there are 16 dead bodies on the ground. You sure no one on that flight was suicidal?

Had nothing to do with it? There's a 5 year old kid with no parents this morning because of this. You gonna tell 'em we are doing enough?

Take a moment and look though the regs that concern these. If it weren't for the skilled pilots, there would be a lot more dead folks out there.

And there is this:

"Warning about potential high-fatality accidents, safety investigators recommended two years ago that the FAA impose greater oversight on commercial hot air balloon operators, government documents show. The FAA rejected those recommendations, and the NTSB classified the FAA's response to the two balloon safety recommendations as "open-unacceptable," which means the safety board was not satisfied with the FAA's response."
http://amarillo.com/news/2016-07-30/hot-air-balloon-carrying-least-16-people-crashes-texas

The Federal Gov only establishes minimums, and it appears the FAA didn't think those were enough. And the state can damn well legally require more - such as having a landing zone that doesn't have high-voltage electric lines in the air around all its borders.

But first the state has to provide people who don't do stupid things in the first place. Like treating lighter-than-air craft as if they were carnival rides. Like flying airships full of innocent people through hazardous space full of easily recognizable deadly objects until they all die.

They need to create a safe space. That's why we build airports and don't fly planes out of pastures where we have to dodge cows and power lines.

These answers about "The Federal Government is in charge" sound like it will be little comfort to the newly orphaned child.

[Paladin]

18. Your Texas-bashing regarding this tragic incident is sickening.

Really low-class and indecent of you. You ought to be ashamed.

[jtuck004]

20. I'll save my anger for the people who caused it. I doubt any other drama helps,

but ymmv.

[Paladin]

46. You've already provided plenty of anger and drama here. All of it misdirected. (nt)

[bluedigger]

22. Just what are you going to regulate with a hot air balloon?

The pilots are subject to whatever training and experience requirements the FAA requires to carry passengers for hire, but it's an inherently risky endeavor. You can't put much in the way of safety redundancy on a lighter than air craft.

[jtuck004]

27. Good response. If that is final analysis, do we make it only available to people 21 and

older who sign a waiver about the risks?

I wonder if there were any children in there? And if anyone thought about the wisdom of dragging them up a few thousand feet to test the balloon? They certainly can't give informed consent. But their parents can give it up.

Since it is an "inherently risky endeavor." maybe we need different regs.

We do lose 1 or 2 balloons a year, so putting 16 people on board one of these - given how few are actually launched in comparison to say, airplanes - is really rolling the dice.

[Major Nikon]

32. There are different regulations for balloons

Walking out your front door is an "inherently risky endeavor". Hot air balloons are one of the safest modes of transportation on a per trip basis. The NTSB lists less than 80 fatalities in the last 34 years.

[bluedigger]

34. Maybe I should have chosen a better term.

I meant to imply that when things do (rarely) go bad, they often end catastrophically. The difference between "accident rate" and "odds of surviving an accident", perhaps?

[bluedigger]

33. I think limiting capacity is probably the direction to focus on.

Maybe only put half a dozen eggs in one basket, instead of 16 or more.

[bluedigger]

47. I think the final analysis will be pilot error, as usual.

They went right into the power line on landing, it appears. I suppose there could have been an equipment failure, but there won't be much left to check.

[jtuck004]

52. Yeah, and that is a problem. I still can't figure out, though it seems suggested, that this

was the normal landing zone for these craft, or at least nearby.

Look at the power lines.

Forgetting San Diego, you don't lift and drop flying craft with people, perhaps children on board, in between power lines. Stay in a motel near the Dallas airports, you can watch planes taking off and landing, a big loop, and nearly nothing between you and your second or third floor window. You can see vast clear areas for the planes, who fly at the mercy of the wind, to take off and land.


The comment I liked was "This isn't like airplanes, where they have your name. People just walk up and buy a ticket".

Sounds more like it is regulated by the local county fair commission.

And that's not the pilot's fault.

[Peregrine Took]

28. My thoughts exactly. Pretty sure the investigators will find something amiss. n/t

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

29. Ignorant, huh? Just like all those other Texans, huh?

Balloons are federally regulated. Since the FAA was quoted in the article, that should have been your first damn clue.

[jtuck004]

35. Respectfully, FAA is quoted on anything in the skies, including meteors. They just reported a crash.

Beyond federal regulation is state and local. Then again, you have to have an atmosphere of wanting to learn, of looking for solutions, not fostering ignorance...

For those of us who in years gone by have enjoyed watching the Texas State Board of Education wrestle with the question of what to put in science textbooks used by its students that address, among other things, the pesky questions of climate change and evolution, I am happy to alert readers to the possibility of a new addition to that august group. To describe her at this time may seem premature, since in order for her to join that Board she will have to win a run off election in early May as well as the general election in November. Nonetheless, since many of her ideas remind us of the halcyon days of that Board when it was chaired by Don McLeroy, it seems appropriate to remind Texas voters of what they have to look forward to, should she join that body. Don McLeroy is, of course, fondly remembered by Board observers.
...
In addition to being something of a scientist, Ms. Bruner is also an historian. In 2014 Ms. Bruner wrote of the Civil War that “Historians waited until all of the people who were alive during the Civil War and the Restoration (sic) were dead of old age. THEN HISTORIANS WROTE THE HISTORY BOOKS TO TELL THE STORY THE WAY THEY WANTED IT TOLD.” There is, of course, a bit of poetic license in that allegation since many history books were written long before the last civil war survivor died some time in the 1950s.

Ms. Bruner has also formed opinions about Islam that sound remarkably similar to another scholar who has contemplated the religion, Donald Trump. Ms. Bruner has written that: “Islam is not a religion. Islam is an inhumane totalitarian political ideology with radical religious rules and laws and barbaric punishments for breaking the religious rules.” She has also written that the reason that President Obama favors rights for gays is because of the years he spent as a male prostitute living in New York City using his earnings to support his drug habit.

Ms. Bruner is a retired teacher. As she explained when addressing the Texas State Board of Education, she taught kindergarten in the Texas public schools for 35 years. That may very well explain why Texas has produced such luminaries as Ted Cruz and Texas governor, Gregg Abbott. If she becomes a member of the Board, all eyes will be on new editions of science textbooks in Texas. For good reason.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christopher-brauchli/texas-and-textbooks_b_9543454.html

Texas Textbooks What happened, what it means, and what we can do about it

Religious Right leaders in Texas have been waging war against science and history for the past few decades. A primary target and battleground has been the state’s public schools, in particular the statewide approval process for textbooks. People For the American Way Foundation first started working with Texans to resist Religious Right takeovers of textbooks back in the 1980s.

The Religious Right has invested so heavily in Texas textbooks because of the national implications. School districts in Texas have to buy books from a state-approved list, and Texas is such an enormous market that textbook publishers will generally do whatever they can to get on that list. Textbooks written and edited to meet Texas standards end up being used all over the country. So Religious Right leaders in Texas can doom millions of American students to stunted, scientifically dubious science books and ideologically slanted history and social studies books. Advances in printing technology make it easier to prevent that from happening now, but it will take vigilance to keep publishers from following the path of least resistance.

The war heated up in recent years after far-right groups won a working majority on the elected state board of education and Gov. Rick Perry appointed the ringleader of the far-right faction, dentist Don McLeroy, as chair of the board in 2007. Since then, the Religious Right faction focused on standards for the approval and purchase of science textbooks for the next decade. McLeroy and his allies stripped any mention of the age of the universe from the science standards (those millions and billions of years are annoying to young-earth creationists who insist the universe is only 6,000 years old). In addition, the new standards will essentially require the teaching of evolution denialism and climate change denialism.

The most recent battle, over the standards for new social studies textbooks, culminated in May with the adoption of social studies standards that give the far-right faction and its Religious Right advisors far too many victories in their efforts to replace history with ideology and turn public school classrooms into Heritage Foundation seminars.
...

http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/texas-textbooks-what-happened-what-it-means-and-what-we-can-do-about-it

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

36. Textbooks? Hot air balloons?

Really? You have a problem staying on topic?

[jtuck004]

38. Not at all. Still talking hot air. n/t

[snooper2]

70. you meant to say writing hot air

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. Didn't know there was a causal relationship between the politics of textbooks

And the safety of hot air balloons.

Oh, wait. It's clearly there, in the International Journal of Bullshit, vol. 1.

[uncle ray]

40. more weight is easier for the pilot to control.

it's easier to land a big basket full of people if it gets windy.

[jtuck004]

41. Yeah, I would think so - more ballast against the wind. And they probably limit

lifting into heavy winds, I suspect.

Great for lifting logs out of forests. Flying 4 or 5 families around town, don't think so.

[snooper2]

69. fail again LOL- you never let us down though!

[90-percent]

7. Curious

Sorry to snark so early about a terrible tragedy, but has the Orange Nazi blamed this on Muslims or not their best Mexicans yet?

-90% Jimmy

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. It's already been blamed on Texas up thread

For its notoriously lax hot air balloon regulations, don't you know.

[Sand Rat Expat]

17. Kicking people when they're down is super classy. NT

[Sophiegirl]

10. How horrific

Those poor people.

[truthisfreedom]

25. Awful. Seems very unusual!

I can't think of another.

[anamandujano]

30. More fright than fun

I went up once. The wall of the basket was lower than my center of gravity. There is no feeling of movement because you're moving with the air. That drained the fun out of it for me. There have been all kinds of accidents with them, you only need search.

[Major Nikon]

51. I searched

There have been less than 50 accidents and 80 fatalities in the last 34 years.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx

[groundloop]

59. Doesn't it suck when facts get in the way of preconceived ideas

[anamandujano]

60. To me that is a lot for something that looks so mild and harmless.

[unitedwethrive]

37. So sad

[retrowire]

48. Hooooly shit. Talk about a nightmare scenario....

I'm so sorry to those who have lost loved ones here.

[rjsquirrel]

54. Sheriff Law

We must be in Texas.

I grew up very near where that balloon crashed!

[milestogo]

56. This is really sad.

I wouldn't go up in one of those things under any circumstances.

[whistler162]

58. When a baloon decides to come down

it comes down. Wonder if it hit the power lines.

[Liberal_in_LA]

63. Tragic

[Sunlei]

65. why are the commercial flight 'baskets' so flammable? people didn't have a chance to survive a spark

[whistler162]

71. The propane tank used to heat the air.

[Statistical]

66. The texas bashing in the thread is disgusting and misplaced (like most bigotry) ...

The FAA has exclusive jurisdiction over the operation of aircraft. I mean it is stupid but at least logical to blame Obama (as head of executive branch of which the FAA is part of) for the crash. To blame Texas makes about as much sense as blaming Texas for the Iraq invasion.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

72. FAA Inspector Raised Earlier Balloon Concerns

Pay-per-view. In print: "FAA Inspector Raised Earlier Balloon Concerns," page A3, Wednesday, August 3, 2016.

FAA Inspector Raised Concerns About Hot-Air Balloons Years Before Crash

Internal report submitted in 2012 or 2013 urged improved training, tighter certification requirements, closer oversight

By Andy Pasztor
[e-mail]

Updated Aug. 2, 2016 5:31 p.m. ET

A year or more before independent crash experts publicly urged more-stringent safety rules for sightseeing balloons in 2014, a report by a Federal Aviation Administration safety inspector raised similar red flags and called for identical changes.
....

Accident investigators with the National Transportation Safety Board, the independent agency that issued strongly worded recommendations in 2014, have determined the pilot was likely attempting to land when part of his balloon dragged along an electrical power line. This likely severed the gondola--the basket under the balloon carrying passengers--which plummeted to the ground and burst into intense flames, NTSB member Robert Sumwalt told reporters Monday.
....

It isn't clear whether stepped-up FAA oversight would have made a difference in last weekend's tragedy. But the internal report, prepared by Wayne Phillips, a safety inspector who still works in the agency's Detroit district office overseeing flight standards, said there was a dramatic need for improved training, more-demanding certification requirements and focused, hands-on oversight by agency inspectors.

His undated 18-page report, submitted to high-ranking FAA officials in 2012 or 2013 according to a person familiar with the report, argued that an entire industry segment--potentially including several hundred operators offering scenic hot-air balloon tours nationwide--"has been overlooked but is deserving of FAA attention and oversight."