Police: Hug Triggers Officer's Gun, Kills Woman

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-ABC

A woman celebrating the weekend before her 25th birthday was fatally shot Sunday when she hugged an off-duty police officer while dancing at a party, causing the officer's service weapon to fire, according to police and her mother.

Adaisha Miller would have turned 25 on Monday, according to her mother, Yolanda McNair.

The shooting happened at an outdoor social gathering about 12:30 a.m., said police Sgt. Eren Stephens. It happened on the city's west side.

According to Stephens, the woman "embraced the officer from behind, causing the holstered weapon to accidently discharge." The bullet punctured Miller's lung and hit her heart, and she died at a hospital.

FULL story at link.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-hug-triggers-officers-gun-kills-woman-16737471#.T_oxCJFgzmc

[pnwmom]

1. Are holstered weapons supposed to be locked? This is a serious question.

I have no idea.

[obamanut2012]

16. Generally no

The cops I know carry theirs ready to fire. It's also how I carry mine. Pistols don't accidentally discharge, so the sidearm won;t fire unless the trigger is pulled. It is completely safe to carry it this way. I still don't get how she shot herself since the gun was holstered. Poor woman.

[Country Tom]

31. Agree

Something must have gone tragically wrong such as cocked and not locked, mechanical malfunction, or slip of the safety or cross bolt mechanism during the hug. It is also possilble that it was planned and intended.

[Shadowflash]

53. Yup.

Obviously COMPLETELY safe.

[obamanut2012]

58. It is completely safe

Guns do not accidentally discharge. That is a Hollywood invention. Or an "excuse" someone makes when they shoot someone. People make guns discharge, they don't make themselves discharge.

[Sirveri]

185. That depends on the gun. Plenty of guns had accidental discharge problems.

They were almost always due to shock impacts however. Japanese sidearms (specifically the Type 94) were notorious in this regard, and when solidly impacted would often accidentally discharge into the service members leg. The funny thing is that the Type 94 was considered a step up from their previous sidearm. Though I'd agree with you on modern sidearms being pretty safe in this regards.

I never worried about my Beretta 92F accidentally discharging, especially with the safety on. The Glock 17 on the other hand, I'm not quite sure I trust that as easily, but that's because I didn't take the entire thing apart to see how exactly it works. Probably a 50% chance this LEO was carrying a Glock of some sorts. I carry mine condition 3 (no round in the chamber) simply because I don't consider the 'trigger lock' to be a real safety, The 92F put a piece of steel in front of the firing pin when the safety was on, if memory serves me correctly.

Also begs the question why this guy was carrying a condition 1 weapon around at this event.

[Demit]

54. How SHE shot herself? How can you even use that phrasing?

[obamanut2012]

56. With the info we currently have, she discharged the weapon somehow

SHE shot herself, the person with the weapon didn't.

I personally think the whole thing sounds fishy and weird and bizarre, but as of right now, the info we have is that the young woman somehow discharged the weapon and shot herself. So, it's pretty easy to use that phrasing when that is what the facts currently reflect.

[pacalo]

148. The part that doesn't add up to me is that his gun was holstered in his waistband

when the weapon discharged, the bullet piercing her lung & heart.

http://news.yahoo.com/detroit-woman-dead-hugging-off-duty-cop-discharging-155421250--abc-news-topstories.html

Godbee said that the officer had been concealing his department-issued .40 caliber Smith and Wesson semiautomatic hand gun in a holster in his waistband when Miller placed her hands on his waist. Godbee indicated that Miller had seemingly touched the gun in some way, causing it to fire. There is no safety switch on the weapon, he said.

"I don't think I'm giving anything away by saying this but for the sake of transparency, it is possible for the trigger to be manipulated with that type of holster," Godbee said. "Typically the barrel is facing down, but the preliminary investigation indicates that there was some manipulation along the officer's waistline that he did not control and subsequently the weapon discharged."

[TheWraith]

176. Add to that the fact that police usually use hollow point or soft point bullets.

Besides doing more damage to an unarmored target, half the reason for police using hollow point or soft point rounds is that they're less likely to ricochet and cause risk to others. Hitting a hard surface like a concrete/stone/asphalt patio or driveway should make the bullet fragment, losing most of its energy, rather than ricocheting.

[4th law of robotics]

76. How the gun jumped out of the holster and shot her

all on its own.

/saying she did it is just going off what the article presents. Causing something doesn't mean it was intentional or deserved.

[Boxcar Willie]

192. Do you live in Somalia?

Last edited Tue Jul 10, 2012, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

or some other place where you have to carry your weapon ready to fire?
or are you George Zimmerman wannabe

[PavePusher]

194. Do you live in the USA?

Or are you simply trolling and making baseless insinuations for your personal amusment?

[Boxcar Willie]

197. Yes

n/t

[TheWraith]

33. Most police weapons are double-action-only, with no safety switch.

In other words they act like revolvers: a long, hard pull of the trigger is needed to set them off, but there's no external switch to lock them. All Glock models, most Smith and Wesson, most Ruger, etcetera are like this. They do it that way because of the possibility that police may have to draw their weapons and use them right away--they don't want officers getting hung up by a safety switch in a life or death situation, and the long hard trigger pull is to insure it doesn't go off too easily.

That said, I find this story extremely questionable. With most shoulder holsters, the trigger isn't even remotely accessible while the gun is in the holster. And modern firearms do not go off for any reason except pulling the trigger. On top of that, the sheer odds that she would accidentally pull an exposed trigger, and that an accidental shot would kill her so quickly that she couldn't get medical attention to save her life? Amazingly unlikely, like hitting-the-lottery type odds against it. If I were the police, I would look VERY, VERY carefully at whether this officer may have had any previous romantic relationship with this woman, or any other reason to want to hurt her.

[pnwmom]

43. I'm glad to hear that it isn't as easy as it sounded. I hope they do a thorough investigation. n/t

[TheWraith]

177. I do too.

I see two scenarios more likely than the "accidental discharge" theory. One, somebody was a little drunk and showing off their weapon, resulting in a negligent discharge which could have been prevented by basic safety. Two, somebody chose to pull the trigger and try to cover it up as an "accident." Either one happens far more frequently than the odds on a gun accidentally going off in the holster and ricocheting into a person.

[Old Codger]

47. I think if you check

You may find that the majority of officers carry Glocks which do not have a mechanical safety, if there is a round chambered all it takes is a pull of the trigger, no such thing as cocked and locked with a Glock.

[obamanut2012]

59. I agree

The whole thing sounds mighty fishy to me.

[greiner3]

65. "the long hard trigger pull is to insure it doesn't go off too easily."

I'm sure that no cop in the world, much less in the US has filed the firing pin down so as to allow them a lot less time and effort to fire their gun. Overweight people have a tendency to develop type 2 diabetes which can lead to all sorts of maladies, including such things as loss of sight, arthritis and others. you wouldn't want a cop to have pain when he/she pulled the trigger would you?

Jus' saying.

[Lurks Often]

69. You just proved you have no clue what you are talking about

"I'm sure that no cop in the world, much less in the US has filed the firing pin down so as to allow them"

filing the firing pin down will not result in a lighter trigger pull, but a gun that will not fire at all since the firing pin will no longer be long enough to hit the primer and set off the cartridge.

As for the incident itself, this seems to be a one in a million freak accident.

[oldhippie]

77. Just wow!

What stinking ignorance.

Jus' saying.

[snooper2]

108. You should do just a LITTLE more basic research before trying to type a post to fill a meme

you want to propagate...

Just saying!

[AtheistCrusader]

117. Gee, you sound like a gunsmith.

Perhaps a second career, your expertedness?

[sarisataka]

121. You could be right

cops love explaining to IA and in court why they made unauthorized modifications to their issued weapon.



BTW the firing pin has absolutely nothing to do with the trigger pull

[Posteritatis]

134. Oh hey, dumbest post I've seen on DU in hours. (nt)

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. I....

..never mind.

[Remmah2]

67. We'd expect nothing less.

[TheCowsCameHome]

112. Can't begin to compete with the *cough*

gungeon's analyst/experts *cough* on the details of this shooting.

[Meiko]

3. Very odd

Last edited Mon Jul 9, 2012, 12:31 PM - Edit history (1)

that a holstered weapon would discharge like that. Knowing the type of weapon involved would be helpful. If I had to guess I would say it was a Glock.

I stand corrected, it was a Smith and Wesson.

[safeinOhio]

6. 40 cal S&W n/t

[TheWraith]

37. .40 Smith and Wesson is the round the weapon fired.

Not the brand/model of the gun. It's like saying someone drives a V8. That's the engine, not the vehicle.

[safeinOhio]

55. Both.

http://www.google.com/images?client=safari&rls=en&q=smith+%26+wesson+.40+cal.+pistol+picture&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group

[Meiko]

100. Yea I saw that

I corrected my post, Thanks

[Peregrine]

8. Glocks have a trigger safety

It has to be depressed for the Glock to fire.

[obamanut2012]

18. My 9,, doesn, too

But I can keep it "off." I believe you can with Glocks, too.

[TheWraith]

36. I think you meant to say "does too."

Although if you can "turn off" the trigger safety on a Glock, that's news to me.

[Peregrine]

46. Maybe tape it down

But I don't know what that gets you.

[obamanut2012]

57. I did -- I was half asleep when I wote it!

And, I meant the slide safety. Ugh.

[Meiko]

101. I know

I have owned several. I also know they have been involved in numerous accidental discharge accidents due to people not understanding how their guns operate. After looking at the article I see it says the gun was a .40 cal Smith and Wesson semi automatic pistol. It still doesn't explain how the gun discharged. Very strange

[Old Codger]

214. that is true

But it does nothing to stop the trigger from being pulled and firing, the only way to be safe really with a Glock is no round in chamber

[bluedigger]

4. So many questions...

Sounds like a freak accident...

[AnotherMcIntosh]

5. Strange story. So, a round was in the chamber, the safety was off, and somehow a "hug" caused

the weapon to fire?

Then, on top of that, the bullet punctured her lung and hit her heart?

How many know of any kind of firearm that can be discharged by somehow hugging it or its owner? Any kind at all?

[MicaelS]

13. Several points

(1) Any duty weapon carried by LEO is ALWAYS going to have a round in the chamber. That stuff of racking the slide then shooting can get you killed. That is Hollywood bullshit.

(2) Revolvers do not have safeties. Never have.

(3) Many semi-automatics do not have a conventional thumb safety that must first be deactivated to fire the weapon.

(4) Some like Glocks, which is a one of the most popular law enforcement guns in the world, have JUST a trigger safety. Where the safety is on the trigger, and that must be depressed before you fully pull the trigger. They are essentially just a like a revolver in semi-automatic form.

(5) Others have a grip safety where you must fully and firmly grip the gun in order to pull the trigger.

(6) Other guns have some combination of thumb safety, #4 and #5.

(7) If the gun was Glock and was being carried in a poor quality holster, the hug could have compressed the holster onto the trigger and caused the gun to fire. Glocks have a habit of this.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

15. Instead of going through each point, cf #2 - "Revolvers do not have safeties. Never have." with:

?w=450

By the way, we don't even know that the cop was carrying a revolver.

[ManiacJoe]

20. Interesting. Third-party, after-market parts, but cool.

Bummer that it does not work with the newer revolvers.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. Point taken. In contrast, the hammer on a common S&W acts as a safety in that it must be cocked

in order for the revolver to be fired.

[awoke_in_2003]

50. Your "common s&w"...

Must be a single action. Not very many people carry these. The majority of modern revolvers are double action.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

68. Nope.

What, for example, is the trigger pull on an out-of-the box S&W 625 JM when used in a double-action mode?

Not everyone will agree that a revolver's hammer in the down position acts as a safety because so many people have said that revolvers do not have safeties, but whether you cock the hammer with your thumb or cock the hammer by pulling back on the trigger, the hammer must be cocked before it will be fired. In contrast to an automatic such as an XD45 loaded with a round in the chamber and ready to fire with a relatively lighter trigger pull, a double-action revolver is not ready to fire until the hammer is pulled back. It's not going to go off by someone "hugging" it or its owner.

[Clames]

89. Takes more than pulling the trigger to fire an XD.

Trigger safety, grip safety, and the internal firing pin block.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

98. Plus, maybe, a hug?

[awoke_in_2003]

106. You said cock the hammer...

Cocking has always been the act of pulling the hammer back to a locked position before firing the weapon. When you pull the hammer back you are using single action. You do not cock the hammer with the trigger. Now in double action, pulling the trigger, which will be heavier in DA, the hammer does indeed go back. But it is not locked in the cocked position. It goes back the swings forward to the firing position. There is no way to pull the trigger to cock position in standard revolvers.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

114. Nope. If your statement is not universally believed, do you have a link to support it?

In case it is not obvious, your statement, "Cocking has always been the act of pulling the hammer back to a locked position before firing the weapon," is not universally believed because I don't agree.

When a person squeezes the trigger of a double-action revolver, that action cocks the hammer. You can't legitimally deny it. It's a fact.

[awoke_in_2003]

175. "is not universally believed because I don't agree"...

That's your problem

[MicaelS]

25. That is NOT the safety, it is the cylinder release latch...

Push down on the lever, then swing out the cylinder to eject the used cartridges and reload.

[ManiacJoe]

27. It is actually a safety.

See the URL for the manufacturer's name.

Its existance surprised me, too.

[Major Nikon]

29. It's a Murabito aftermarket safety for older S&W revolvers.

http://www.tarnhelm.com/murabito.html

[TheWraith]

38. That's an aftermarket modification, not standard equipment.

Basically almost no revolvers have actual safety switches built in to them. The design predates the whole idea of an "off switch" for handguns.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

45. Yes, in response to the statement ""Revolvers do not have safeties. Never have.", the photo

shows a revolver with a safety lever which is the result of an aftermakert modificiation.

The safety device, as noted by the Murabito web site, "has been installed in over 60,000 revolvers."

Actually, I was having a little fun with MicaelS because he relies upon superlatives and I anticipated that he would not be familiar with it. He took the bait and insisted that it was not a safety lever. (Hey, this is just a web site on the Internet.)

If I really wanted to, I suppose that I could have pointed out that no one has the expertise to know whether &quot 1) Any duty weapon carried by LEO is ALWAYS going to have a round in the chamber." No one is capable of knowing that.

[MicaelS]

73. Since it appears you want to be pendantic...

No CURRENT PRODUCTION Revolver have Thumb Safeties. How's that?

And since you're talking AFTERMARKET, there's the Magna Trigger Conversion for S & W and Ruger Security Six Revolvers ONLY. These have been around since the late 70s / early 80s.

And no, unless you have x-ray vision you don't KNOW for a fact that there is a round in the chamber of semi-auto being carried as duty weapons. But I'm willing to bet that you won't be able to find many, if any MODERN law enforcement agencies that teach the practice of carry a duty weapon with an empty chamber. Not unless their duty weapon is a single action revolver.

There is such a thing as Common Sense, and I was using that. YMMV.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

74. "pendantic". Is that your new word for the day?

[MicaelS]

75. Yes.. I looked it up in the dictionary and found your picture. n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

79. Actually,

when you hold yourself out as a know-it-all, as you did earlier in this string, you'll find that it doesn't work unless you really know what you are talking about.

You claim, for example,
&quot 1) Any duty weapon carried by LEO is ALWAYS going to have a round in the chamber." You don't know that. Your use of capital letters for "ALWAYS" doesn't make it true nor show that you are more knowledgeable.

&quot 2) Revolvers do not have safeties. Never have." Actually, some do.

[Deep13]

71. That's a cylinder release, not a safety, fyi.

And many autos do not have them either.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

72. No. See #29.

[Deep13]

120. That's a Taurus, not a SW.

I tried to check your link, but my school blocks gun-related websites.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

122. A google search produced the photo that I used. Since thousands of such safeties have been added to

S&Ws, a further google search would have undoubtedly produced a photo with a S&W with such a safety.

It's good to hear that your school blocks gun-related websites. Shouldn't you be researching and writing about economics, history, or whatever?

[Deep13]

140. I'm not in class right now.

I'm in the University apartments using their cable-modem service. My home University, U. of Akron does not block such sites. I'm taking language classes here at Yarmouk U. in Jordan so there is not much to research or write about. Adruuss alOra arAbeea fee jameeAt yarmook. Since guns are illegal here and Muslim countries generally do not recognize extensive free speech rights, it figures they would block it.

[Kyad06]

7. sounds fishy

how would it shot upward if it was in a holster ?

[IndyJones]

9. It doesn't make sense, does it?

[obamanut2012]

19. No

[AlecBGreen]

10. ricochet?

gun in holster is aimed at ground, goes off, bullet strikes pavement/concrete/etc and comes right back up?



very odd story. RIP young lady

[DallasNE]

12. Very, Very Fishy

A bullet was chambered and the safety was off? Is that standard procedure. Also, how does the trigger get pulled if the weapon is in a holster. Now the gun could be concealed and in a shoulder holster and that would impact angle and, perhaps, make this possible but the barrel still has to jut outward at a sharp angle. Frankly, I have my doubts, given what we know from this article.

[Crabby Appleton]

17. Many shoulder holsters the barrel points straight back

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. That's assuming the idiot had the right holster for the gun.

Note the trigger is covered. If he had a big gun in a small holster the trigger would be exposed.

If so, this guy was guilty of reckless endangerment before the gun even went off.

[rocktivity]

99. It was a inside waistband holder covered by his shirt

according to the officer's lawyer.

Which means the gun was pointing DOWNWARD.


rocktivity

[tru]

118. Crabby, that photo looks like an accident waiting to happen.

What, some designer decided shooting a person behind the gun carrier is preferable to shooting his or her foot?

[PavePusher]

164. Pretty difficult to do that actually.

The trigger is completely covered. There is a heavy leather strap that either covers the hammer, or sits between the cocked hammer and firing pin (if it is a hammer-fired gun), and it holds the pistol securely in place. We use them a lot in the military and, while it can be a bit disconcerting, if there was a serious safety hazard record, I can guarantee they'd be prohibited.

That said, I prefer a vertical holster myself for a number of technical reasons.

[Beartracks]

34. Shoulder holster?? n/t

[freshwest]

206. It would have to be, wouldn't it? Angle from hip would hit her lower, not in the heart.

I was surprised at where you got shot, my first thought was, 'How did it reach up to the lungs and heart?'

I'm still not sure why she hugged him from behind. Maybe she knew him and was just being affectionate.

This is such a sad story.

[unblock]

11. the mother seems to question it as well:

"whether they want to call it freak accident or mistake in judgment..."

my guess is that they left out an important detail or two.

(1) hug from behind
(2) ...?
(3) bullet flies from gun into victim

my suspicion is that (2) the officer freaked at being accosted from behind and "instinct took over".

[TheWraith]

39. I don't think that's possible without intent.

Freaking out long enough that a trained police officer decides to blindly fire a bullet at whoever happens to be behind them? No way. Either this was one-in-ten-million type shitty odds, or it was deliberate.

[unblock]

41. lots of unanswered questions; could he have been trying to prevent access to his gun?

and in the process, accidentally shoved her fingers into the trigger?

and also twisted the angle of the gun to point toward her heart?

in any event, it sounds like the safety was off, which seems like a mistake in that situation.

[TheWraith]

42. Almost all police weapons don't have a safety switch.

It's because police agencies don't want their people tripped up by a safety if they have to draw in a life-or-death situation.

Even so, I think that this story sounds suspiciously like bullshit.

[HALO141]

103. Actually...

Most departments mandate a Glock type fire control system because it reduces the statistical probability of an accidental discharge. Accidental discharges result in law suits and cost departments (and the cities) money. Glock was very successful marketing it's handgun by demonstrating a significant reduction in AD's among the departments that had adopted it. The AD's were a result of officers manipulating the controls (safety levers/de-cocking levers) with their booger hooks on the bang switch.

How do we know they had their fingers on the trigger? Because (with a very few notable exceptions) all modern pistols have a mechanical block in the slide that prevents the firing pin or striker from moving forward enough to contact the primer. Pressing the trigger first moves the pin block out of the way then releases the hammer or striker. Without the trigger pressed to the rear, the weapon will not discharge even if the hammer or striker is released due to a malfunction. The odds of two devices in the same weapon malfunctioning at the same time are astronomical.

All that being said... There are trigger modifications the people have made to their Glocks, ostensibly to improve accuracy, that result in a fire control system that is much more prone to failure. I know of one individual who made such changes to his Glock, against all knowledgeable advise, who ended up poking a hole through his own leg.

However
It's being reported that the weapon in this case was a S&W. While S&W has produced several models of pistols their most recent is the M&P which is currently enjoying a high degree of popularity. It is striker-fired, like a Glock, and its fire control mechanism is very much like that of a Glock. The M&P trigger (like that of the Glock) is designed in such a way that the mechanism CAN NOT move to the rear without something roughly the size of a finger pushing it. IOW, the trigger cannot be moved as a result of the pistol being struck or dropped.

All this just adds to the irregularities in the story as it's being reported. As others have observed, IWB holsters hold the pistol with the muzzle pointed down. When striking a hard surface, such as a concrete floor, bullets typically fragment and the spawl will travel out, not back along the original trajectory. Even if we are to assume that the muzzle was (somehow) pointed to the rear, I'm at a lost to even speculate how a "hug" could have brought the victim's chest in line with it. What is she, three and a half feet tall?

The only thing I'm at all sure of is that what little information we do have is not reliable.

[Blandocyte]

14. Sounds like a classic case of premature ejaculation gone Freudian n/t

[veganlush]

21. guns are mainly

for cowards to carry. This was another senseless death

[Fredjust]

22. Agree...

the cop needs to be executed for murder!!!

[Remmah2]

66. Guess that's why cops carry them.

nt

[PavePusher]

85. Have some more coffee.

[slackmaster]

95. People have to protect themselves from drunken hypoglycemic diabetic fat smoker freeper zombies

[safeinOhio]

23. More info.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120708/NEWS01/120708029/Woman-hugs-off-duty-Detroit-police-officer-151-dies-after-his-gun-goes-off?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

The weapon, a department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer’s waistband and was covered by his shirt, Goldpaugh said.

[obamanut2012]

60. So, a gun in an inside-waistband holster was discharged

And hot upwards and back and shot the woman in the chest... and didn't shoot the guy in the balls, stomach, leg? Surrrrrre.

On edit: this is the type of holster I often use when I go running. There is no way this happened as reported. Impossible.

[oldhippie]

78. Agree. I routinely carry a Glock in an IWB holster ....

There is NO WAY the weapon discharged into her chest from a hug from behind without someone pulling it out and pulling the trigger. Can't happen. Something is amiss here.

[PavePusher]

87. Possible scenario:

This occured at a party, man dancing with wife.... if he's doing something where he's bent over, the gun could shift to a horizontal or upwards position. Every in-waist-band holster I know covers the trigger, but if it was slipping out a bit (most IWB holsters have crap for retention), easy to poke a finger or thumb into the trigger area if someone was reaching/holding his waist from behind.

This is the only thing I could come up with, but if there's one possibility, there may be others.

More info here: http://www.freep.com/article/20120709/NEWS01/207090367/Detroit-officer-s-gun-kills-woman-incident-under-investigation?odyssey=nav

[rocktivity]

105. That's a whole lot of "iffing" going on

IF the officer didn't notice that his gun had shifted, IF the trigger had become exposed, IF the victim "poked" rather than "hugged," and IF the dance they were doing was the bunny hop!


rocktivity

[PavePusher]

109. IIRC, the term for the action is "freaking".

Google for examples.

Like I said, just a hypothetical.

[PavePusher]

160. See updates at #123 and 153.

My theory just got significantly more possible/likely.

[ManiacJoe]

24. Lots of weirdness here for this to be an accident.

For this story to work out:
- The holster needs to be a horizontal shoulder holster.
- There would have to be no external hammer on the gun or no safety strap on the holster.
- The holster would have be so worn out that the trigger was now exposed.

At the moment this story has a lot of holes in it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. Another question: Why did he have a live round in the chamber?

Was he expecting an Indian raid?

[ManiacJoe]

51. A round in the chamber would be the normal and correct carry method for pistols.

If there is no round in the chamber, the pistol must be cycled before it can be shot. This requires two free hands and extra time.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

52. Anyone who knows actual tactics knows the old "quick draw" scenario is a myth

The first thing you do is grab some cover. There's plenty of time to pull the slide and click off the safety.

Leaving a round in the chamber in a friendly crowd situation is stupid. If trouble were coming there would be plenty of warning from the guest reaction.

[oldhippie]

81. More ignorance of reality n/t

n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

124. Want "reality"?

Attend her funeral.

[Clames]

125. Are you?

Since you are so concerned with "reality" here.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

133. I would if it were in area.

I'd like to sit in on the inquiry too. The transcripts should be made public.

[ManiacJoe]

83. You are the one suggesting "quick draw".

Your post suggests you are lacking on the side of handgun training, Hollywood movies not withstanding.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

113. Actually, the training I had was as a union security guard in the 70s

We were trained in gun safety by an ex-drill sergeant and had to be certified to be bonded.

I did NOT suggest "quick draw" at ALL. Quite the opposite. I said the first thing you do is seek cover.

The suggestion that he have a concealed gun probably nobody knew he was wearing in an UN-chambered state since he was in a friendly environment has been met with the kind of hostility, derision and piling on one would expect from the Right.

[Clames]

127. You suggestion deserved the reaction...

...because it is out-of-date and thoughtless with respect to the dynamics that modern LEO's and military personnel are trained to handle. Do yourself a huge favor and Google some videos showing LEO's responding to suddenly being shot at. They are looking for cover as they are backing away but they are simultaneously drawing and returning fire. Glocks and similarly designed handguns are popular in part because designed with LEO/Military input where such a situation is considered. Far outside the scope of training you received as a union security guard 40 years ago.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

132. We rail about the militarization of the police

The militarization of the budget and the militarization of thought.

Yet when someone suggests an off duty cop at a birthday party....

Oh, never mind,...this whole thing is getting me disgusted.....

[Clames]

143. None of that has anything to do with this subject...

...so yes you should quit that line of thinking here. Off-duty cop in his own house doing something that he's been doing his entire career. Nothing to do with militarization of the police at all.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

162. Sure it does

The fact that we have required cops to pack a gun at all times never gives them a break from the constant impression that they are in a war zone.

It wasn't that long ago when it wasn't like that.

Even in the movie (Yes, I'm going to use a movie reference so I expect to be mocked AGAIN) "Beverly Hills Cop" they ask, "Do you always take your gun on vacation?" and he said in Detroit cops are required to carry a hand gun at all times. (Which was NOT the norm)

Does that NEED to be true all over America? Can't we even SUGGEST the IDEA that it's okay for an off duty cop to go to a party without a gun or are we that far gone?

The militarization issue IS related.

Hell, I'm old enough to remember when cops did 30 years and never pulled their guns once and were proud of it.

[rl6214]

195. Paul Blart, is that you?

"Actually, the training I had was as a union security guard in the 70s"

[Spitfire of ATJ]

196. Do I really have to keep defending the union HERE of all places?

It not the same as a "mall cop".

[rl6214]

212. Who said anything about union?

Only you did.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

213. Yup.

And you are the one who thinks of a security guard as a joke when it's actually taken very seriously in some parts of the country.

Put it to you this way, suppose the New York and Chicago diamond mercantiles are transferring by the case...

Yeah,....let's have some real idiots do that for us....

[MicaelS]

88. FBI stats state that most gunfights take place

At a distance of 21 feet. That's the size of a decent living room or the length of a large car. Not much distance fore cover at that range.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

126. Oh yeah?

Cops routinely use their car for cover.

[sarisataka]

130. Are you familiar with the Tueller drill?

Gun vs knife at 21 feet, gun looses. Add that if a round is not chambered, you give the attacker more time/distance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

[Spitfire of ATJ]

135. Oh, I see.

It was a birthday party so there HAD to be a knife to cut the cake.

How could I have missed that?

[sarisataka]

142. Has there never been a violent fight at a party?

What concerns me more, and I assume he was not the only officer present, was there any drinking by those who were armed?

It also sounds like he might have had a bargain basement holster. A modern gun in a quality holster is not going to 'go off by itself' even with a round in the chamber.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

150. Thank you!

Finally! A reply that doesn't attack!

[PavePusher]

157. None of the previous replys were attacks.

Each one was a statement of facts and information.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

163. A few were.

Go though them again.

[sarisataka]

159. De nada

I try and keep it civil, maybe sarcastic

[ManiacJoe]

145. Not cover, but concealment.

Handgun bullets will go through a modern car quite easily.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

151. Don't cop cars have panels in the doors?

Designed to stop a bullet?

[PavePusher]

158. Usually not.

They are very expensive and heavy.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

165. Maybe the CHP has them as we see a LOT of police persuits on TV

and the cops routinely use their doors as shields.

[PavePusher]

167. They aren't being used as "shields" but as camoflauge.

See #156.

If you want to use a car a "cover", i.e. a bullet shield, you point the front bumper at the danger and move behind the rear bumper and below window level. This puts the most mass between you and the nastiness.

[sarisataka]

168. Better than nothing

And remember the cops will have body armor on. By crouching down they are increasing the odds that any hit will be in an armored spot. Combine that with some ballistic protection from the door and they are in a fairly good situation.

[PavePusher]

156. A car is NOT "cover".

A car is, at best, "concealment".

Tactically, there is an enormous difference.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

169. Considering I've seen what an Uzi can do to concrete block

a building made from them isn't "cover" either. Much less a stucco / wood frame / drywall structure.

A low garden wall made of rocks could be.

Then there's this.

[Clames]

96. Such ignorance.

You are very wrong. One of the to reasons Glocks are standard for more than 60% of LEO's is because it's faster to get the gun into the fight. And when stress and adrenaline are at a max it makes quite a bit of difference.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

128. And as we all know, it's a war zone out there.

It just LOOKS like a neighborhood.

[Clames]

131. Far closer than any mall-cop/security guard will get for certain.

Just a whole different level of training and conditioning to consider these days.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

137. "conditioning"?

Do you really want to go there?

I worked places like the old Fisher Body Plant in Kalamazoo before it closed. That's where I met some the best friends I ever had. UAW workers. I also worked Union Pump in Battle Creek. Union places required Union security and Union security was a little better than a "mall cop". We prided ourselves on our professionalism. We were not only trained in gun safety but in fire prevention and first aid. We were trained in safety regulations unique to each place by both management and by the union stewards.

When I came to California I found the Union didn't even exist here. They pay dirt and they have yahoos show up for interviews who say things like, "When can I get my gun so I can shoot people?"

[Clames]

144. Yes...

...and thank you for completely missing the point but you did illustrate that your training and what is current for a LEO are vastly different in scope and concept. LEO's are trained in Basic Life Support and some receive more advanced training in first aid.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

152. I'm NOT putting up my training to a cop

But I WILL defend the Union and the professionalism and training of it's membership.

ESPECIALLY since it has now been folded into the Union for Cops and Firefighters.

We weren't just "Mall Cops" and I find that term degrading and insulting.

[img][/img]

http://www.spfpa.org/

[HALO141]

110. ORLY?

Please tell us when and with whom you have trained. How did you come by your knowledge of "actual tactics?"

The only entity I am aware of that embraces the doctrine of carrying a pistol with an empty chamber is the Israel. That doctrine came about when the Israeli State was very young and the majority of the weapons they possessed were old, cheap and poorly maintained. The doctrine has persisted simply because no one has seen fit to re-examine it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

129. I talk off duty cop at a 25 year old woman's birthday party and you talk war

See the difference?

[HALO141]

138. On the contrary,

I'm talking about every reputable training organization that trains shooters, be they military, law enforcement or civilians.



The difference is that I know what I'm talking about but you are only making assumptions based on bias and bad information.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

141. The gun went off as a result of a hug.

Why don't you ask those places you mentioned if that's normal?

Or would you rather continue to belittle me?

[oldhippie]

147. That's the story they're trying to sell ...

I don't buy it. More likely a cop fucked up and they are all covering up for each other.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

170. Something about this story stinks.

I bet the Gun Nuts are REALLY tearing into this story to discredit the notion that the gun just "went off".

Hell, they're probably thinking Liberal sites are saying, "See? We told guns are no good and they can go off all by themselves!"

That's how they see us. As a bunch of wimps afraid of guns.

[TheWraith]

172. Handguns DON'T "just go off."

A modern firearm has about a dozen different mechanisms to make it safe against discharging except when a human pulls the trigger. Hence when something like this happens, the obvious assumption is that the people involved are bullshitting. It's like someone saying that their cars brakes failed just as they were pulling out of the bar parking lot at 3 AM, i.e. incredibly suspicious. Which is more likely: a freak series of coincidences where several different mechanical safeties failed in just the right way to kill someone, or that a human either behaved recklessly or maliciously?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

178. Handguns DON'T "just go off."

No kidding. I don't need to be convinced.

I was saying what the Right Wing Gun Nuts THINK we believe.

It never even OCCURS to them that someone like me could go deer hunting with a bunch of UAW workers.

They think we're all a bunch of wimps,....until, that is, that it fits their narrative that we are a bunch of Union Thugs. Then suddenly we have mob connections.

They're VERY schizophrenic.

[TheWraith]

180. Sorry if I was overly harsh.

I just get really tired of people who get "educated" on the real world by Hollywood: guns go off at the drop of a hat, police officers charge in with guns drawn when most cops spend their entire careers never drawing their weapon in anger, etcetera. I guess I took your post wrong. My apologies.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

181. There's a lot of people out there

who never get out there and work with cops so they only know what they see on TV.

I did a short stint as a tow truck driver too and got the really messy freeway calls from time to time. To me, that's when cops are at their finest, when they're out there calming a whole family pinned in their crushed car when every member of that family down to the 5 year old girl has multiple injuries including broken bones. I did a LOT of "hold this" during that time if you know what I mean waiting on paramedics.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

179. Reading your post again

Makes me wonder if she dumped the guy.

[HALO141]

182. Of course that's not normal.

For the reasons already outlined by many, including myself.

You made statements indicating that carrying a holstered pistol with a round chambered is inherently unsafe and that no one who knew what they were doing would choose to do so. I simply challenged you to support those statements with some background - Background we both know you don't

It's too easy to let your emotions run amok in the midst of a tragedy but unbridled emotion makes for bad decisions and bad policy.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

184. Background we both know you don't

Don't what?

What the hell is wrong with an off duty cop having his "required by policy" firearm as safe as possible for a birthday party?

Some people have a point that newer guns automatically load the chamber when you insert the clip so it's not an option.

Are they supposed to have it at the beach?

[HALO141]

188. "What the hell is wrong with..."

Carrying a pistol in the condition you suggest does not make the gun "safe." It makes the gun useless.

Having a round chambered is not unsafe. That discharge could not have happened the way we're being told it did so rather than trying to shift the paradigm based on untruths, why don't we push to find out what REALLY happened? Something obviously went wrong but that "something" was NOT the fact that a round was chambered.

Furthermore... There's nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. If you think carrying a pistol with a round chambered is unsafe and are not open to any information to the contrary then that's up to you. For future reference, though, this forum is really not the place to start implying you have knowledge or experience you don't really have. There are a lot of folks here who really do know the difference and they'll call you on the BS in a heart beat.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

189. I give up.

I find that "knowledge or experience you don't really have." line insulting.

[HALO141]

190. OK, then. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

191. BTW: thanks for making my point for me.

[HALO141]

199. Pretty sure I didn't do that... Whatever it was. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

200. Sure you did. In two ways.

[HALO141]

201. Then clarify.

And I'll be happy to point out where you're wrong again.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

202. You just did it again on one of the points.

[HALO141]

203. If you will not be specific

and just want to play semantic games then you evidently have no more points left to try to make.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

204. There it is again.

The condescending attitude was one of the points.

I don't know how many times I mentioned that I worked for a Union but that didn't matter. The entire profession was mocked as was I. The second point was addressed by you further up when you said it would have made the gun "useless".

One word: Exactly.

[HALO141]

205. OK.

I have responded to you with the same level of respect you showed me.

You continually asserted that carrying a handgun with a round chambered is, at the very least, ill-considered. You said, "Anyone who knows actual tactics knows the old "quick draw" scenario is a myth." That statement is just dripping with arm chair condescension and sounds very much like it was made by someone who's never held a firearm in their life. When I asked you how and when you obtained such information you completely side-stepped the question. You then maintain that, "The gun went off as a result of a hug." By your own admission this information is questionable at best but, still, you maintain that as supporting evidence for the "empty chamber" doctrine?

As to your "quick draw" reference - Drawing a handgun from concealment is NEVER a quick draw proposition. By way of example, I'll say that while I am not a Grand Master level shooter by any means, I am quite a bit better than the average bear. The best draw from concealment I can recall making in competition (or training for competition) is in the neighborhood of 1.5 seconds, maybe just a little under. In the brutal reality of deadly force encounters, 1.5 seconds is a loooooong time. The majority of violent encounters happen at close range, in low light and involve multiple assailants. The expectation that, even if one is able to access the handgun in time, one will always have one's other hand available to cycle the slide and chamber a round is unreasonable in the extreme. Someone else has already mentioned the Tueller Drill. That is all the demonstration this point needs.

Furthermore, the idea that the weapon's state of readiness should change from one minute to the next, depending on one's surroundings, is absurd, impractical and invites disaster. Guns do not "just go off." Guns go of when they're being handled and for whatever reason, SOMEONE was handling this one improperly. Changing a weapon's state of readiness requires unnecessary handling and raises to a very high order the probability that, should you need it, it will be (as I said) useless. Your retort, "EXACTLY!" would seem to indicate a callous disregard for that individual's safety.

You also contend that, since this incident took place at a party, that should have been considered a "safe" location and the individual in question was acting unreasonably in that he was armed at all. From now to the end of our days, none of us get to know if, when or to what degree we may be threatened. None of us are going to get a phone call or email telling us that we are going to be attacked by a mugger/murderer/rapist in the parking garage, on the way to our car tomorrow. While the level of acuity may vary, it's a risk we all live with. How we choose to acknowledge that risk is, largely, a personal decision. For many who carry a concealed weapon being armed is a lifestyle.

Working for a union doesn't impress me. For that matter, working for ANY organization doesn't necessarily impress me. I don't say that to be condescending, it's simply a fact. The most egregious, dangerous and overtly threatening losses of self control I've ever seen were committed by active duty law enforcement. Unions have their share of idiots just like every other organization. Management doesn't always make policies to benefit their members. For many years patrol officers all over the country were prohibited from carrying rifles in their vehicles because the various departments' leadership were afraid of being perceived as being too frightening by the general public. These policies were largely discontinued after the North Hollywood shootout. Likewise, military training and policies often leave much to be desired. The Pentagon, which seems to subscribe to some of the same theories you do, believes that it can determine which areas are hot and which are "safe." Ft. Hood comes to mind most immediately but there are also "green" zones in conflict areas where soldiers are not permitted to be armed. Regardless of the Pentagon's assertions to the contrary, these areas are not "safe." Consider, also, the security watch on board the U.S.S. Cole who were issued rifles but not allowed to load them. The obvious lesson to be learned, here, is that we just don't get to know when and where we are safe or not.

Finally, I'm not sure what "profession" you're referring to unless it's that of private security. I wasn't a party to that part of the conversation so you'll have to take it up with someone else.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

207. Would it kill you to read what I wrote?

It's obvious you had the time considering you spent so much in writing this thing. What I find funny is you quote me saying "the "quick draw" scenario is a myth." which you describe as "dripping with arm chair condescension and sounds very much like it was made by someone who's never held a firearm in their life." and then you proceed to say "Drawing a handgun from concealment is NEVER a quick draw proposition" backing up EXACTLY what I said by calling it a "myth".

So where is your problem? Did you only read every other word?

[HALO141]

208. I did read it.

I believed you were trying to draw some sort of parallel with movie depictions of old west gunfights. Now you seem to be saying that, since it's not the speediest proposition in the first place there's no point in even trying. If that's the case then I disagree.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

209. Wrong. What I was saying is this idiot might have been the type

to believe in the whole "quick draw" thing and had his rig set up with that in mind. Including having the safety off.

Hell, I'm even wondering if he modified the gun to have a hair trigger at this point.

[HALO141]

210. At the moment we don't have any information to that effect.

Still, the most reasonable explanation would seem to be that someone was just acting stupid and it all ended badly.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

211. The article said the gun went off from being hugged from behind.

But you are right. For all we know we could be dealing with a blue wall of silence if it was all cops and their families present.

[obamanut2012]

61. That is totally normal

For both LEOs and civilians. Having to rack the slide could cost someone their life.

Some pistols automatically do that when you load the mag -- you don't need to rack the slide to chamber a round.

[ManiacJoe]

149. Those pistols that do that may need some springs replaced.

That is not the spec-ed behavior.

[PavePusher]

90. See #87. n/t

[caseymoz]

26. Picture here doesn't make sense.

It couldn't have happened the way they said. Or maybe it could. Let's just say, it's not immediately self-apparent without something else happening.

[Historic NY]

30. Strange unless it was some POS holster & the gun fell to the floor...

discharging. If a gun went off in his waistband he'd be going to the hospital. there more tha meets the eye here. Who dances with a gun anyway?

[TheWraith]

40. Modern firearms cannot go off by being dropped.

Federal law since 1968 has mandated "drop tests" for all new firearms. If a gun can go off from being dropped, it's not legal for sale in the US except for antiques and antique reproductions that no police officer would be carrying.

Dancing with a gun is the least strange part of this--police officers are armed at pretty much all times, since they're never REALLY "off duty".

[obamanut2012]

62. Dropping a gun doesn't make it go off

Hollywood myth.

As we were taught: there is no such thing as an accidental discharge.

[PavePusher]

92. See #87.

And no, it wouldn't at all mean "he'd be going to the hospital". Look at how in IWB holster sits, then envision bending over at the waist.

[haele]

32. Was it in a "shoulder holster?"

If he was a tall guy and she reached up from behind/to the holster side to hug him around the chest, she could have hit the trigger by mistake and the bullet hit her in the chest.
Sad story all around.

On edit - they say he was wearing it in his waistband. He must have not safety strapped it, and it dropped to the ground when she came up to him and made friendly "grabbing/hugging" motions.

Haele

[obamanut2012]

63. No -- inside-waistband holster

Impossible, huh?

[Clames]

35. Detroit Police are issue the S&W M&P40 in .40S&W.

These are striker fired pistols like Glocks, Springfield XD's, and others. Internal safety system is very similar to a Glock using a partially cocked striker where the full trigger squeeze is required to disengage the safety, fully cock the striker, then engage the sear in order to fire. Technically a DAO system. It would be extremely difficult to have a N.D. if the pistol was properly holstered but not impossible. Without knowing how tall the victim and police officer was it is not inconceivable that in the process of hugging the officer around the waste she could have pushed the handgun in such a way that it would have rotated on the belt clip, engaged the trigger in some way, and fired in which case the pistol would have been pointing at her chest when it went off.

[tawadi]

44. THAT is a weird story. eom

[crim son]

64. So, the off-duty officer brought his gun to a party.

This may be very common, but it shouldn't be.

[oldhippie]

80. In our local department, officers are required ......

.... to carry a sidearm when off duty and out in the public. Most carry two, a duty weapon and a backup.

It is very common. For a number of good reasons.

[Clames]

86. He was hosting the party at his house.

So that would mean he didn't bring a gun as much as it was already there.


Have to read articles, not just skim over them.

[rocktivity]

93. The officer was the HOST of the party

According to this Detroit Free Press story:

John Goldpaugh, a lawyer for the Detroit Police Officers Association...who spent several hours with the officer after the shooting, said the veteran beat patrolman was hosting a party at his home and was dancing with his wife when Miller came up behind him and tugged at his waist."And the gun went off," Goldpaugh said. "It's a fluke accidental shooting."

The officer did not know the woman, who attended the party with other guests, Goldpaugh said.

rocktivity

[TheWraith]

107. Actually, in most cases it's required.

Most police departments, particularly bigger ones, expect their officers to be armed any time that they're potentially available to respond to a call.

[Ian David]

70. If this is accurate, then I think I can imagine how it must have happened.

She came from behind him, thinking she would hug him, pick him up off the ground, and gleefully spin him around.

Unfortunately, when she lifted him, she was lifting him by the trigger of his gun.

Or the trigger caught on her belt or purse.

As she lifted him up, he bent forward at the waist, which aimed the gun backward at her lungs-- and blamo.

This would make the most sense if the cop was smaller than the woman.

[ManiacJoe]

84. The physics of what you suggest do not work.

(Or I am not correctly picturing what you are describing.)

Assuming the IWB holster was correct for the gun, the trigger was covered so she could not touch it.

Regardless of how far forward he bends, the gun in an IWB holster is not going to point any further up than her thigh.

[PavePusher]

94. See #87. n/t

[Aerows]

82. This story is fishy

I hope there is a deeper investigation because there needs to be one, imho.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

91. Upside down holster?

A hug from behind caused the gun to fire, shooting a bullet UP into the woman's lung.

Something's fishy here.

[rocktivity]

97. According to the Detroit Free Press

The weapon, a department-issued, 40-caliber Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol, was in a holster worn inside the officer's waistband and was covered by his shirt... link

Well, here's what an inside waistband holster looks like:

[center][/center]

How the trigger got pulled, even accidentally, I can't figure out. But if the bullet entered the victim above her waistline while the gun was pointing downward, it must have done quite a ricochet!


rocktivity

[PavePusher]

111. Many IWB holsters are leather and not particularly tight.

Get the gun in a horizontal position, or upside down and they can start sliding out.

Add a hasty grab to the waist and a trigger-safety semi-auto pistol, and I can see this as a possibility, if low probability.

[oldhippie]

139. My leather IWB holsters are all tight ...

I have Galco, Kramer, and Milt Sparks leather IWB holsters for my Glocks and Wilson Combat CQB. All are broken in but very tight. I can put the handgun in any one of them and shake it as hard as I can upside down and they don't fall out. It is (in my view) impossible to expose the trigger if the holster was designed for the gun with anything but a purposeful effort to remove the handgun from the holster. A hug of any type just isn't going to do it.

[PavePusher]

153. See #123. I'm gussing a cheap Uncle Mike's neoprene-ish piece'o'junk.

For the record, I have two of those, but I almost never use them. Mostly they are scuff-protection for storage.

[sarisataka]

161. I have 2 Uncle Mikes IWB

I have no problems but I always use the models that include retention straps. I know the phase concealment is the retention but I will trade the 1/8th extra second to draw for the more secure hold.

[Tejas]

102. Too late for a gunpowder residue test.

Flags should have gone up immediately when investigators arrived.

[Tejas]

104. .....on everyone present.

[LanternWaste]

115. we often poke fun at the stupidity of the American public... until it encroaches on our sacred cows.

After reading this thread, it would seem we often poke fun at the stupidity of the American public... until it encroaches on our sacred cows (in this case, firearms), or denies a direct and criminal responsibility of people in authority (in this case, cops) we advertise hate for.

[sarisataka]

123. A bit more info

Godbee said the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material, which would have allowed the trigger to be activated. He said there's no evidence the officer fired the gun, and he believes the gun discharged after Miller hugged the officer from behind during a party at the officer's home.

"There was some manipulation along the officer's waistline (that) he did not control," Godbee told reporters.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2012/07/08/20120708police-hug-triggers-officers-gun-kills-woman.html#ixzz209qSPFCF

IMO more likely the holster allowed the gun to slip up, exposing the trigger.
She still would have to about been kneeling behind him.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

136. This is useless without pictures

A youtube re-enactment might be useful, to show how someone is shot in the lung from a holstered gun while hugging.

Maybe with a soundtrack by the cop: No, I'm NOT glad to see you, that IS a gun in my pocket!

[Historic NY]

146. Like I said a POS holster...most likely a deer skin or a one size fits all....

A cheap holster will get you killed or ruin your weapon....they haven't quite designed a holster to fit some of the bodies carrying guns. Very cheap leather will conform but it also thins and stretches defeating the purpose...half the crap out there now is leathertastic...sweat, dirt and bodily oils and gun oil eat away at them. There is a difference between a gun that sits in a holster and one thats fastened into a holster.

http://www.taguagunleather.com/new/inside-the-waist-holsters-p27

http://www.nrastore.com/nrastore/ProductDetail.aspx?c=2817&p=SA+324&ct=e

[CreekDog]

154. Jeez, if everybody owns a gun, even people who do things safely --will we be any safer?

no we will be less safe.

this is the argument i've been making all the time.

gun accidents, gun carrying and responding to violence in society (a society which is safer than in years past) by becoming increasingly armed is making some people feel safer, putting pressure on those of us who choose not to carry arms to in fact, arm ourselves --and all for what?

the myth that for most of us, being armed every moment makes us safer --for most of us it does not.

people will disagree with me, but my argument is pretty simple.

there is a moment you imagine where being armed makes you safer, and perhaps it does, in that hypothetical moment.

but by being armed all the time, and by being in a society where everyone else is reacting by arming themselves, that for that hypothetical moment where you might be saver, you are less safe the rest of the time.

YMMV

[PavePusher]

155. Who's advocating that everyone own a gun?

Even the dreaded NRA doesn't do that.

Put the Strawman down.

[CreekDog]

166. I didn't say that? Apparently while chiding me over accuracy, you didn't even read what i said

meh.

[valerief]

171. It doesn't pay to hug gun people--or even be around them. Scary! nt

[PavePusher]

173. Ri-i-i-i-i-ght.....

Because (if the circumstances thus far have been accurately reported) this happens all the time.... right?

[valerief]

174. Yep. Guns kill people all the time! nt

[HALO141]

183. Not like that, yhey don't. nt

[JusticeForAll]

186. Guns don't kill people, hugs do. n/t

[boppers]

187. So don't hug gun owners.

Even better, stay a safe distance away from them, because they are apparently not responsible for their weapons.

"Honest, the sword/firearm/grenade just went off, it was a freak accident!"

Whatever.

I hope the cop does 20 years for his homicide.

[Crabby Appleton]

193. Update from Free Press

Adaisha Miller was on her knees while dancing behind an off-duty Detroit police officer early Sunday when his holstered gun fired, striking her in the chest, a police official familiar with the investigation told the Free Press today.

The official said that explains how Miller was shot in the chest while dancing behind Officer Isaac Parrish during a fish fry early Sunday at his home on Archdale.

The official said the angle of the gunshot is possible because Miller was not standing and described it as some type of "exotic dance" where Miller, 24, was tugging at Parrish’s waist.

http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/120710037/Police-officer-gun-holstered-Adaisha-Miller?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE