Breivik Report Forces Norway Police Chief to Quit

[Hissyspit]

Source: Reuters

Breivik report forces Norway police chief to quit

Aug 16, 2012 5:18pm EDT

OSLO (Reuters) - Norway's police chief resigned on Thursday, days after an independent commission found that police could have prevented all or part of a bombing and shooting spree by far-right militant Anders Behring Breivik that killed 77 people.

The bombing of central Oslo and shooting spree at the ruling Labour party's youth camp shook the tiny nation of 5 million people, raising questions about the prevalence of far-right views in Norway and the efficiency of the security services.

Police Chief Oeystein Maeland, who became the head of the police directorate weeks before Breivik's attack on July 22, 2011, has been criticized for his failure to face up to police shortcomings in the aftermath of Norway's worst peacetime violence.

Maeland, a long-time Labour Party politician and the best man at Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg's wedding, quit after losing the confidence of Justice Minister Grete Faremo and other politicians, he told news agency NTB.

Read more: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE87F1AG20120816

[Diclotican]

1. Hissyspit

Hissyspit

Many more heads should roll for this case.. The 22 july report was rather damaging for so many, and others, also in the government should be forced, or leave voluntary before this case is finished... But the report is rather kandid - honest, brutal honest in many cases, to the reasons why the police and other systems was not in place to prevent Breivik for doing the worst attac in peacetime Norway since WW2...

But I suspect our Parliament doesn't want to make Stoltenberg leave - as it is just a year to general elections in Norway - But I suspect we will have a different prime minister in Norway when that election is over... Stoltenberg have been prime minister for almost 8 year now - it is time for some new ideas I suspect...

Diclotican

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

10. "Hindsight is 20-20"

That's a common phrase in the U.S., don't know if it translates to anything in Norway. Basically, it's easy to point to past events and identify shortcomings that allowed a bad result. It's not so easy to anticipate bad results and fix existing systems to prevent those results.

Does the 22 July report suggest changes in the relationship between Law Enforcement and the general populace? In the U.S, the reaction (besides starting two wars) was to establish the Department of Homeland Security and Transportation Security Agency, and enacted the so-called Patriot Act. This strengthened government powers to intrude into private lives with less dependence on courts and warrants. It reduced the effect of our fourth and fifth amendments to the bill of rights. Is this the sort of thing that's desired by people in Norway?

The firing of the chief seems like good theater, and maybe it'll be followed by a more general purge of government officials, as you suggest. But has the firing improved anything?

It may, as you say, be time for new ideas. We have another saying in the U.S.: "be careful what you wish for, you might get it"

[Diclotican]

12. JustABozoOnThisBus

JustABozoOnThisBus

I doubt it will end up in something like the Patriot Act, who is rushed true the Parliament on a foggy night where no one is allowed to read it, and just push it true as a security measure against something... Our Parliament is working on ice glacier method sometimes - and maybe it sometimes is for the best, not to rush things true.. And I doubt that the Norwegian law enforcement Will be militarized in the same way as the US, where the law enforcement the last couple of decades, specially after 9/11 2001 got into a more militarized mode than ever before.... But I think the police, and other law enforcement (It is just Police who can arrest and the Corth who can prosecute on the basis of what police and other authorities believe is correct) Will be given some new powers - in the form of new tools, to try to safeguard the population at large.. The Police, and most people in Norway have a good working environment, the police officers have a great deal of trust from the population, and the police often use more "soft power" than "hard power" to enforce law... I suspect that many american police officers would have had serious problems working in Norway, as police often use a more soft way to interact with suspects, than the US who more or less beat the crap out of them, before they might discover that they got the wrong guy...

It is more than 30 points of suggestions from the 22 commission, to the Parliament and to the current government, to decide what to do - mostly it goes on things like secure government facilities, like our "regjeringskontorer" and also to make the police more robust - and more educated to what is needed when things like this happend...

And I suspect, that the government of Norway already have the tools ready, to try to keep an eye on some, who might be a problem, as it is.. But we have some strict counterbalance to it also - so it is not that easy anymore for our PST (Politiets Sikkerhets Tjenerste) to spy on people, without it going true the court to be decided if needed... And our Parliament have also a "overseeing" role to keep PST honest - and not to misuse their legal powers.. In the early 1990s, it was discovered that the forerunner to PST, Overvåkningspolitiet had indeed misused their powers, to spy on many civilians - many who was innocent of any crimes, but whose political stand was enough to get them in the cross air of our Overvåkningspolitiet.. When the Lund commission had being doing their job - the old surveillance Police, aka our "secret police" was more or less dismantled, and many retired or was given other task a long way from anything with the secret police.. And a new, modern, and far less dangerous Secret Police was build, to make sure that the best from the old secret police was coming along, but that a lot of the old guard got canned - or given Chance to retire with pensions.. Most did that, retired with decent pentions... The reasons the old "cold war" secret Police was disbanded was because it more or less was not under the control of Parliament.. And as the cold war ended could make up new enemies on their own... It was prudent to not let them do that - and it was also at time where the new openness about this things, was giving many who unfairly had been in the cross air, a possibility to tell "their" side of the story too...

And at a interesting side note.. One of my best friends in grade school, his father was rather high up in the secret police before the 1990s.

I suspect the police chief is not the only one who might have to find other jobs when the dust is settled.. As I also pointed out, we have general elections up next year (2013) and I somehow doubt that our current Premier Stolenberg will have the tittle of Prime Minister when elections is over... But then again, someone had to take responsibility for the report, who was rather devastating on many levels.. It is a thick book, more than 480 pages long - and many is to blame for the failures who was many true when this horrible thing happened... But for a reason i doubt that a brutal, and bloody head rolling is the way to go, as we still need police who is capable of doing what need to be doing, to learn from the horrible mistakes - and repair what trust is broken between police and the population at large. I think it is far more important when all this is said, to do what need to be doing, make the resources available to let the different systems "talk together".. And to educate the police better, so it can respond better, and faster if this ever happened again (somehow I doubt it will).. But the danger of terrorism, that be from extreme groups or single persons who want to do harm IS something law enforcement have to take more serious than before, as knowledge about methods is known by the use of internet..

The "secret police" in Norway is not many, it is not like in the US where thousands and thousands are working to "protect" US against enemies - I suspect it might be 5000 police officers in all in PST - Maybe more, maybe less - and they have to work rather hard to protect Norway, against enemies outside and inside.. And Norway, have not the same resources as the US, to have a army of agents ready to go, when needed... But It is a possibility that the Police can get help from the army, specially the royal guards, who is capable of doing a lot to help the civilian police if needed.. As Garden did when 22 july happened - it took 10 minutes from the uniform they usually use, to they was in camouflage uniform, with live weapons.. Specially a couple of weeks ago - I think 4 weeks ago, when some in the US Embassy "forgot" to pick up an "dummy bomb" who was in a car.. The whole area around the car - included most of the Ambassadey was evacuated - and the royal guard was in uniform - and with rather he wy weapons in less than 15 minutes - they even was digging holes in the royal garden - to have firing places if anyone was attacking the royal palace... By the way, our king and queen was not in the building when it happened - they was out of country then... It was a mess, as most of down-town Oslo was at a standstill for 5 hours in all... But we take it serious, one year after 22 july.. And I also think reps from the US Embassy was given a stern lecture about this stupid thing, behind closed doors..

I'm not sure if Norway have something like your fifth amendments, or anything like your Bill of Rights - Your Bill of Rights and your amendments to your constitution is rather unique in the world.. But I believe we have common sense when it come to the need to invade private liefs - and the right of the individuals, to be protected against the government...

Diclotican

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

13. Thanks

Thank you for that detailed and informative post.

[Diclotican]

14. JustABozoOnThisBus

JustABozoOnThisBus

I try to the best, to explain it - But I am sure others, with more knowledge about this hings, and a better grasp on english grammar, could tell you better how things work in Norway, when it come to police and other law enforcements legal standing in the future..

Diclotican

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. Would that many of the previous WH admin's flunkies

had had the sense of honor to resign after they lost our confidence following Katrina et al.

[barbtries]

4. or following 911

rice for instance. instead she was promoted to sec of state. sickening.

[Blue_Tires]

16. I don't think Virginia Tech publicly fired anyone after the massacre

But 8-16 months after the shootings, a untold number of people from that chain of responsibility left to seek "other opportunities"

[SoCalMusicLover]

3. Norway Has It's Priorities Screwed Up

I find it extremely disturbing that Norway has no trouble Banning Snoop Dog from visiting their country ever again, because he was caught with a little weed. Yet they can't sentence this evil person to death or even life in prison. They even allow him to make a mockery of the families and the court system. Pathetic.

[Diclotican]

6. SoCalMusicLover

SoCalMusicLover

Snoop Dog, or whatever he call himself this days, was not cough One time with some weed.. he have been here quite a few times, and all times been arrested for the use of weed, he, and his helpers know well that it is ILLEGAL to import Weed into Norway.. He play the game - he pay the price - and he was not banned for visiting Norway forever - he got Prohibition for TWO years - after that he is okay to come again.. So stop try to make a case where it is non... I know, I live in Norway...

And by the way, Snoop Dog doesn't "Sing" that good - he smote to MUCH weed to be a good singer.. If he had sobered up he might had been able to be a decent singer... But he hard core people here in Norway like him. I have a friend who love the fellow... I'm not that found of him - even though he do have some melodies and texts that is at least not bad.... Not good, but not bad either..

We doesn't have "Life" in prison as the US do.. But we can keep some one who are deemed to be a danger to himself - or to the community at large in prison, or in a hospital for as long as he is deemed to be a danger either to the community, or to himself.. And Breivik would NEVER get out of the prison as a free man.. In fact he will be put on the dock the next week, to get sentence for the crimes he did - and he will most possible get 21 year behind bars.. After the 21 year, he will, more than possible be kept in a prison, for the next 10 year - and then after renew, be kept in a prison for the next 5, and 5 and 5 and 5 years.. As long he is in life... He is the infamous poisoned fruit - no government or Parliament would ever be able to pardon him from the prison he will live in for the rest of his life..

And it is also important that we here can point to our constitution, state clearly that NO Citizen can be given a stricter prison cell, than is in the books at the time of the crime.. When Breivik blow up our government offices, and murdered over 80 people, the strictest prison time was 21 year behind bars - and then be kept under protective arrest as long as it is needed... And we also doesn't have the death penalty - it is something we get rid off, already mid 1800s - I think the last time a person was executed in the criminal system (before WW2) was a man who was hanged at galgeberg (then outside Oslo, now a part of the City) for stealing horses - and a lot of other criminal actions.. And as the constitution clearly point out, you can not be punished to a strictest penalty, that the strictest law can give you - he can be given 21 year - and then at least 10 year in protective custody.. In a mental institution or in prison. And it is more than possible Than he will never get out, as a free man in life.. To give him freedom, would have been deiced on a government level - and I doubt any government will risk been thrown out of power, because of him.... So he WIL rot in the prison for as long as he live. Most of our Parliament, and our current government have told openly, that the posibility of him given a pardon - or be free after, lets say 30 year is less than zero...

It is maybe "pathetic" in the US sense - but it works rather well in Norway - and it in NORWAY he did his crimes - not in the US.. So you better butt off - and respect the law in Norway even when you are in disagreement of them... Americans tend to be rather "sour" when anyone dear to try to "disrespect" the idea of executing people as you have being doing since at least 1976 - many who in hindsight was innocent - or should have given a lesser sentence.. And to be honest I'm not sure what is most pathetic, to execute people you know is innocent - or to keep a man in a prison cell for the rest of his life.. It is not easy to have a debate, when you not even have the slightest knowledge about the legal laws in the country...

And as the mocking you called for - he was many times, when he wanted to talk out of order - clearly put into place by the presiding judge - who rather unserminoelly told him when to talk, and when to shut up and be quiet... And most og the presiding was also shown on national TV.. 10 long weeks where the whole case was shown, and most got to know how this horrible act could be posible...

And by the way - the legal system in Norway, is based upon what to this point have been natural in Norway. Our legal system is based not on mass-murderers as in the US it looks.. Our legal system is based upon the fact that most murderers do one, or maybe two kills before the police arrest them - not over 80 as Breivik did.. I suspect the legal wrangling in our Parliament, about making laws stricter and more time in prison to be long, hard and intersting..

Diclotican

[malokvale77]

7. Strickly my opinion...

I think Norway's system is far better then ours. With all our life sentences and death penalties we still seem to have mass murders on a regular bases. Our system does not really deter crime. It's set up to line the pockets of lawyers, judges, politicians, the state and lately private prisons.

[Diclotican]

11. malokvale77

malokvale77

The System in Norway, is meant to be able to put people who have doing crimes, back into society, after they have doing their time in a prison.. Not to keep them there for the rest of the life, whiteout any possibility to be free..

And don't let me start on your death penalty system, who is a scam.... Pure and simple a scam... Any civilized nations, have given up the idea of death penalty.. Even Russia, who in many ayes still are nr 1 enemy in the US (And some even believe USSR to be well and kicking, even after 20 year of not being anything than dust) have not the death penalty on the books anymore. In theory you can get the penalty - but your penalty is then commuted to life by the president of Russia itself - and you are put in a prison like "Dolfin" in Russia, where you are kept under so rigid a system that you would never be able to ever do anything stupid.. And the russian prison system is harder than anything in the world - americans is amateurs in the ayes of the russians - who keep a strict line in most of its prisons... And in the strictest prisons, you tend to do as the guards demand you do - or else...
On the other side, the prisons in Russia is often very old, many pre-revolutionary, and specially after the end of the cold war, many prisons have not exactly kept up with the times - so they are often overcrowded and idlenesses like tuberculosis is a fact they have to work to get under control. Mostly because the prisoners tend to get out sometimes down the road - and tuberculosis IS still a danger to the society at large...

The US prison system is not the best system in the world.. Specially after the US closed down mental hospitals - and then just trow the inmates there into the streets - without medication and no one to keep an eye on them, many ended up in the System, and is kept under "solitary confinement" for years at a time.. I would say it is far more human, to put people who have serious mental problems in a mental hospital, where they can get help, and maybe even get well - than to put them in "solitary confinement" for a year, or up to a decade behind walls.. You don't get better closed up in a prison cell for 23 of the 24 hour a day...

Diclotican

[malokvale77]

15. My Grandparents were from Norway

I have always wanted to visit, but unfortunately will never be able to afford it.

My grandparents were farmers, and though quite poor, they were the kindest, most generous souls I've ever known. I believe this was attributable to their Norwegian culture. I hope the horrific act of one madman doesn't push Norway to abandon that culture. To me, that would be a far greater tragedy and a win for hate.

[Diclotican]

17. malokvale77

malokvale77

Well, you can always win in the lottery I guess .. many do try to visit Norway on their old ages - I once had the pleasure of talking to some old ladies who was to visit their "ancestors" somewhere, and they rather nice woman - to a degree as they both was die hard republicans This was when GWB was president - and the kindest I could say to the two woman was that it was just 6 mounts to he had to leave the office - and then I was very polite to them both...

To be rich, or to be poor, you can still be kind, and have generous souls if you doesn't so much, or have the opposite problem - to much.. My grandparents was not wealthy either, but they alleyways cared for us, anyway, so I guess it is a strait in Norwegians - as one americans, whose father had been in Norway many years ago once told me.. Norwegians can be difficult to know - but when you really got to know them - you also have a friend for life... And I think it is a possibility of truth about it...

I doubt Breivik could turn Norway from our rather friendly culture, or that people tend to be less generous and kind even after what he did - if anything shows - I suspect he to have failed miserable with his actions, who turned people into maybe care more for everyone than the opposite.. I'm not sure how much you followed it when it happened a year ago - but instead of anger, of hate, many choose the opposite - and we had a few rather famous "rose-tog" where people was coming together - to show Breivik, and others who might hate our community, that most of us, would not accept what Breivik did.. I was in one of them - and it was rather touching and see how we all was standing together, regardless of "class" or jobs - and was just Norwegians..

Diclotican

[malokvale77]

18. I try to stay true my Norwegian heritage, but...

I do sometimes go off when the right wing bigots start flapping their jaws.

I have been following this story. My heart hurts for the loss and all who bear it. I'm quite sure your nation will overcome in typical Norwegian fashion.

Thanks for the wonderful conversation.

[Diclotican]

19. malokvale77

malokvale77

You can stand true to your heritage - and go off when the extreme right start flapping... It is Your rights as a human to put it bluntly when you is provoked.. We do it here in Norway... Most people I know, do it at least.. And I also.. I'm kind of known for my ability to say things as they are - even if it sometimes bite the ones I tell it to...

It was a horrible act when it happened - and the recoil from this experience will be with us for a long time. And I guess a lot of books, from different perspectives will be written before let this thing goes away.. After all, 77 youngsters, in some cases just kids was killed by the actions of a madman who believed he could turn Norway around, and be a kind of "king-president for life".. Instead he got arrested - and is now awaiting sentencing, who will put him in a prison cell for the rest of his natural life.

After all, we still write books about WW2, even after 70 year... So I suspect it will be written a few books before we will get this behind us.. But our values and our willingness to have an open society, and a government who is open to the public is also very important.. And it is not easy to both have the security necessary in public buildings - specially government offices and places - and the rule that everyone, can and shall be able to talk to our leaders in a free fashion.. I understand the necessarily of making our government more secure - but I hope it doesn't make it difficult to contact our government - because of the security systems who engulf them.

We will prevail this too - as we have doing it with most things over the years.. Cool headed and calm we will rebuild most of things that is ruined - and even though much of the damages who was being made, specially from the families who have lost their children's, or family members it will be a long way to mend the pain they experience now.. But it will be mended - and hopefully they will be given some comfort, from the fact that the one who did it, will NEVER be able to be a free man again.. And that Norway still will be a open, democratic society, even though I suspect it might have an impact on our Psyche for a long time.. But at least, our government have woken up to the reality, that terrorism are not just something that other nations long away from Norway experience.. And not everyone who is terrorism, are from the middle east - sometimes the biggest treat comes from within too..

It was nice to have this conversation - it is allmoust a pleasure to "talk" to pepole here on DU, you are for the most part a kind gang of pepole who made everyone welcome. Some is outright ass **** but for the most part, nice persons who is kind and nice.

Diclotican

[dawn frenzy adams]

8. Who needs Snoop Dog?

Who needs Snoop Dog when Norway has these two Norwegian comics.
Check out their tune.

[Diclotican]

9. dawn frenzy adams

dawn frenzy adams

To be honest It is my first experience with this two clowns.. So I suspect they are not exactly on the top 10 list over most known music in Norway... To me, it looks like two persons, who is trying to make a you tube hit of sorts....

But in a way - it is not worse than what Snoopy Doog is "singing" on stage - At least I suspect them to be sober, something that Snooby Doog are NOT...

Diclotican

[tanyev]

5. Quite a contrast to the team who allowed 9/11 to happen and used it to justify two wars

and campaigned on it for four more years.