Parking lot skeleton may be King Richard III
Source: CBS
(LiveScience) A human skeleton with a cleaved skull discovered beneath a parking lot in England may belong to King Richard III, researchers announced today (Sept. 12), though they have a long way to go in analyzing the bones to determine the identity.
The researchers note they are not saying they have found King Richard III's remains, but that they are moving into the next phase of their search, from the field to the laboratory.
"[W]e are clearly very excited, but the University now must subject the findings to rigorous analysis. DNA analysis will take up to 12 weeks," Richard Taylor, the director of corporate affairs at the University of Leicester, told reporters this morning, as recorded in a tweet.
The remains were hidden within the choir of a medieval church known as Greyfriars, where the English monarch was thought to be buried. Though the location of this church had been lost, historical records suggested Richard III was buried there upon his death in battle in 1485.
Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-205_162-57511163/parking-lot-skeleton-may-be-king-richard-iii/
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)Berlum
(7,044 posts)Chipper Chat
(9,686 posts)Recently I went to Walgreens and a car was parked taking up the last 2 spaces next to the store. BUT.....hee hee, there was enough room between the car and a dumpster. I carefully squeezed in with my pickup parking about 4 inches from the drivers side of the car. When I came out of the store SHE was sitting in the car WAITING for me. I totally ignored her and acted like I was talking on ny cellphone, got in my truck, and drove away. She was yelling at me trying to get my attention but I totally ignored her. I loved it.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)"You are a pig parker". Larry David
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)calimary
(81,441 posts)Almost lost my lunch I started laughing so hard!
tk2kewl
(18,133 posts)Siwsan
(26,289 posts)Especially Tudor history. Real Tudor history, not that nonsense on Showtime.
If it is Richard III, I hope they do a facial reconstruction from the skull.
And, he is not the only infamous historical character, in the UK, buried beneath a parking lot. John Knox, the founder of religious reform in Scotland is buried under parking space #23, outside of St. Giles Cathedral, in Edinburgh. I've been to the spot. Very odd.
Lars77
(3,032 posts)In one evening i went from being a lowly Irish duke to become King of Ireland, got bumped off the throne, killed my sister, got back on and conquered the Isle of man.
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)I made it a goal to visit all of the Royal Tudor burial sites, and I did. A most amazing family.
I used to know all of the Kings and Queens, in order, going back pre-Norman conquest. Now a lot of the names have fallen into those little holes I suspect are forming in my brain. Seems a logical explanation.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)other than that whole Henry VIII thing with the wives, lol. Bad me.
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)My family has been traced back to a royal house in Wales, but princes were a dime a dozen, at the time we identified.
British royalty was incredibly cut throat. I think the Tudors are the most interesting Royal family. I was trying to think which of his children produced enough offspring to continue a family line. Probably his daughter, Mary, who became Queen of France, was widowed, and then eloped with her brother's (Henry VIII) best friend.
They can't write fiction better than the truth behind the Tudors. I tried watching the Showtime series, but found it so totally fictionalized, it was unbearable. As was the acting.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,356 posts)who married James IV of Scotland, and thus left descendants such as James VI and I, and the Hanoverian kings, and thus the present royal family.
It does look as if Mary left enough descendants that some would have been ancestors of people living today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Brandon,_1st_Duke_of_Suffolk#Wives_and_issue
Brigid
(17,621 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Hayabusa
(2,135 posts)so I've been playing the hell out of the demo that I DLed at the local library.
Berlum
(7,044 posts)Aristus
(66,446 posts)They may all be copies of an original. But I wonder if that gesture was authentic, and if so, was it a nervous tic or something?
spiderpig
(10,419 posts)(You'd have to be familiar with Mamet's "House of Games"
1monster
(11,012 posts)and defeated by Henry Tudor, ergo, I guess that makes it a bit of Tudor history...
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)Ok, maybe they haven't actually proven he Richard III killed them, but you will never convince me he didn't have a hand it it.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)were such lovely people...check out how many possible heirs to the throne they offed--as a matter of policy and known history--compared to how many Richard III allegedly did. No contest.
Just another example of history being written by the winners.
Matilda
(6,384 posts)The familiar image of Richard III is the creation of Tudor historians, and most particularly, Shakespeare. His play about Richard is good theatre, but it's not history. But it would hardly have profited Shakespeare to portray Richard in an heroic light with Elizabeth Tudor on the throne.
It is notable that all the Plantagenet heirs were alive and well during Richard's lifetime, but they all meet grisly ends under the first two Tudor kings. Not one of them was left, and it's quite likely that the two princes were among those disposed of by Henry VII.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)In order to end the War of the Roses.
Matilda
(6,384 posts)daughter of Richard's elder brother, Edward IV, in order to legitimise his own claim to the throne, which was from a younger son of a bastard son of Edward III. In other words, no legitimate claim at all.
Elizabeth's brothers were the two "princes in the tower".
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)A truly amazing woman. But, they were all creatures of their time. It could be my atavistic DNA talking, but taken in context, it is hard for me to judge them too harshly. Also, keep in mind that the Tudor reign lasted from 1485 until 1603. Far more years that Richard III even lived.
And, let's be honest, but it's hard to beat that family story, from Jasper and Owen, straight through to Elizabeth.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Richard had a reputation for leading a killing charge that ended most of the battles he fought with him winning by the force of that cavalry charge. Richard was doing such a charge when he was killed. The above cite by soldiers who had defected earlier to Henry's VII's side, but I have read sources he was stabbed in the back by one of his own men as the charge was about to succeed.
The general view as to that battle, was Richard was on his way to winning the battle when he died. The Battle ended with his death.
As to the killing of his nephews, that is open to debate. The main reason is that the princes died in SECRET. If you are ruling a Kingdom, and someone else has a claim to that throne. you eliminate that threat. Richard III had found out that his older brother, Edward IV, the father of the princes, had promised to marry a woman and then had sex with her BEFORE he married the princes mother. That act was enough to make that earlier woman the true wife of Edward IV, and that made Edward subsequent marriage to the princes mother void and both children illegitimate. This was the justification for Richard III taking the throne as King instead of Regent. Now, that may have been the law, but it was not uncommon at that time to ignore the law when it was politically convenient, thus just because the princes were illegitimate did not mean they could not make a claim for the throne (i.e. the Common Law Marriage never took place, and they were legitimate children of Edward VI and thus the rightful kings of England). Thus the princes were still claimants for the throne. Richard III and Henry VII would have killed them for that reason alone.
On the other hand, you do NOT want a pretender appearing to be that threat, thus the death must be clear, not covered up. Given that we are talking about young pre-teens, simple murder would NOT suffice, the people will grow to hate you. Thus both Richard III and Henry VII had good reasons to kill the princes, they also had good reasons to make sure the death did NOT end up turning people against them. A natural death, that could be confirmed by doctors, followed by a State Funeral, where everyone can see the bodies is ideal. Thus you make sure everyone can see what the prince died of and kill any conspiracy theories. A story of illness, leading to a rapid death could be arranged, followed by a State Funeral so everyone cans see that the princes died a nature death. IF Richard III or Henry VII was involved in the deaths of the princes I would have expected something like that. The princes were threats, not by themselves, but could be used by others to justify a revolt. Thus most historians who have looked into the situation have a problem with EITHER RICHARD III or HENRY VII killing the princes.
The chief suspect is believed to be Lord Buckingham. The theory goes during his rebellion of 1483, Buckingham had the princes killed so he could later tell Henry VII he had done so and be rewarded for it. The problem was Buckingham fell into the hands of Richard III, who properly executed Buckingham for his revolt. Richard III, seems to have accepted that the Princes were dead in the last two years of his rule, they did NOT come up as he look to designate a heir (Which indicated they were dead). Henry VII seems to have looked for the princes after at least one revolt against Henry VII by a pretender saying he was one of the princes, indicating Henry VII did NOT know of they were dead. The princes were ALIVE before Buckingham's rebellion in 1483 AND would have fallen into the hands of Buckingham during his revolt against Richard III. Thus he had the opportunity. He had reasons to kill the princes (To appease Henry Tudor later Henry VII). Henry VII's later attempt to blame Richard is consistent with Henry VII NOT really knowing what happened to the Princes. Richard's various effort to designate an heir after the death of his wife and son seems to indicate he knew the princes were dead. Richard's refusal to tell the people the princes were dead implies he did NOT have a plan on how to handle their deaths (Thus supports a killing by a third party). Both Richard III and Henry VII would have paraded the princes if they were alive, AND if they had died would have paraded the body and blame the other for causing their deaths.
Thus it looks like both Henry VII and Richard III are innocent of the crime, but the Duke of Buckingham is a top contender for the claim. The Duke had been close to Richard III before his revolt and then tried to get support from Henry VII during the revolt. Thus the Duke can be viewed as having worked for both men (And mostly for himself). Killing the princes would be an easy way to show either claimant that he still had the princes, even if he was defeated, for no one could produce them. The THREAT that the Duke of Buckingham still had the Princes is all the Duke needed, the actual living princes unimportant. Thus the Duke killed the Princes, but then the Duke was not only defeated by Richard III, he was CAPTURED by Richard III. As long as the Duke was free, the threat that the Duke had the princes was all the Duke needed, but once captured Richard III could DEMAND that the Duke return the princes, and when the Duke couldn't, it was clear the Duke had killed the Princes and without any other reason to keep his alive Richard III had the Duke of Buckingham executed. This explains Richard III's subsequent action NOT to name the princes as his heirs (For Richard III knew they were dead) AND Henry VII's subsequent actions when he looked for the Princes.
For more on Buckingham's rebellion of 1483:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckingham%27s_rebellion#Buckingham.27s_revolt
I am sorry, the death of the Princes done by the Duke of Buckingham is the best explanation of what happened to the Princes. Henry VII's claim to the throne was weak, and Richard III being dead, blaming Richard III was the best way Henry VII could address why he was King instead of the Princes.
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)along with her encouragement of the arts, literature, and exploration.
Given the era and precedent (her sister, Bloody Mary) I think Elizabeth was a marvel. But like I said, all things have to be taken in context. It was no more or no less a brutal period of history where the victor, as usual, took the spoils.
bedazzled
(1,769 posts)like 9/11, i always ask myself who profited most. i don't think it was richard myself. it's a very fascinating time, though. i was telling my husband about edward's wife elizabeth woodville, and her family, the other day. it's a prime example of "be nice to the people you meet on the way up, because you'll meet them again on the way down."
Matilda
(6,384 posts)Why Richard chose to give him the benefit of the doubt is a mystery, but if anything, it proves that he was generous to a fault.
There is also a theory that Richard had the boys sent to Burgundy, and placed them in the care of his sister Margaret, and that the Pretender, Perkin Warbeck, who landed in England during the reign of Henry VII and attempted to seize the throne, was quite possibly Prince Richard, the younger brother. He certainly bore an extraordinary resemblance to King Edward IV. The elder prince, Edward, had a degenerative bone disease that would have killed him before he reached full adulthood, and he probably didn't survive for many years after he was declared illegitimate and deposed.
It's also a fact that all other leading claimants to the throne were alive and well during Richard's short reign, but all met their ends at the hands of Henry VII and Henry VIII on the flimsiest excuses - prime cases of judicial murder.
Brigid
(17,621 posts)They didn't rebury Knox elsewhere -- maybe somewhere nearby -- when they discovered him buried under a parking space?
Siwsan
(26,289 posts)He was kind of a crumudgeon. Probably best to leave him be.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I love reading up on European history, especially England. One of my ancestors was in H8's court, and married Mary Boleyn (Anne's sister).
BuddhaGirl
(3,609 posts)by Alison Weir who is a wonderful historian...much of what is known of Mary is a misconception. I'm really enjoying it!
http://www.amazon.com/Mary-Boleyn-The-Mistress-Kings/dp/0345521331/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347550125&sr=8-1&keywords=mary+boleyn
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)I'll look up that book.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)I loved her book about Henry VIII and all the wives. I was hoping she'd do one on Mary Boleyn. Her research is incredible. Anne Boleyn was always my favorite character during the Tudor period and I got fascinated with her whole family (particularly her brother and sister).
BuddhaGirl
(3,609 posts)even though she was Anne Boleyn's sister...Weir is quite thorough though, as usual.
I've enjoyed her other books too - really enjoyed "Innocent Traitor" which was about Lady Jane Grey.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)was he discovered later?
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)King Richard III was killed at Bosworth in 1485 and his body taken to a Franciscan Friary in the city.
Over time, the exact location of the grave has been lost.
>
Richard Buckley, of the University of Leicester archaeology service, said: "The big question for us is determining the whereabouts of the church on the site and also where in the church the body was buried.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-19361350
So - first they need to locate the church by excavation to identify its foundations etc for confirmation then figure where to look for a possible burial.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)One thing I don't understand is how they can test the remains for Richard's DNA. How would they have any samples of his DNA? Probably there is a simple answer, but I always wondered about that.
It's so fascinating to think about what this place looked like 500 years ago.
Says he was the last King to die in battle. I wish our leaders today had to actually lead the troops they send to send to war as they had to back then. I think considering the number of chickenhawks we have here, we would have a lot fewer wars.
Anyhow, thanks for the link. I really appreciate it.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)They find common genetic markers and then link them back to an ancestor. That's how they know such an enormous percent of the population of Europe and Asia is descended from Genghis Khan.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)I think it may be from one of Richard's sisters. Guy named Michael Ibsen.
Whatever - see picture of the descendent in this link which refers to University of Leicester Press Office : http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-09/uol-kri091212.php
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)They found floor tiles and other stuff (I can't remember what) and are now hunting down the exact perimeter of the church. According to the OP they found a skeleton that could be Richard III.
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Medieval-dig-confirms-site-old-church/story-16837924-detail/story.html
I love this kind of stuff. Ever since I read they were starting to work on the car park I've been looking around now and then for more news. Usually, nothing so exciting as what they've found so far happens anywhere near this fast. Just in the space of a few days they not only could confirm they found the church but now they've found a skeleton that could be Richard III.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)It just so happens that this summer I started watching the BBC series entitled "Monarchy"-- all about the British monarchy from the beginning (Ethelburt). Probably the best documentary I've ever seen and I watch a LOT of documentaries.
Richard III's entry to the throne was dubious, to say the least. It's interesting that there is apparently a fairly large faction in England that claims his reputation has been maligned and that there is no proof that he had his nephews murdered. ('Course who else would have benefited from their demise? And he IS the one who had them taken to the Tower.)
fedsron2us
(2,863 posts)but then so equally would have Henry VII who would have found their rival claim to the throne even more inconvenient. In fact if you run a quick check through all the potential Yorkist claimants to the throne who survived into the Tudor era you will find that nearly all met untimely deaths at the hand of the new dynasty including the Earl of Warwick and his sister Margaret
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Pole,_8th_Countess_of_Salisbury
The House of York and particularly Richard III was popular in the north of England which never liked the Tudor dynasty and rose against it on more than one occasion in the 16th Century. If this is Richards body (and that has not yet been proved) then the fitting place for his burial would be in the City of York whose citizens liked him and mourned his death as follows
King Richard, late mercifully reigning over us, was through great treason . . . piteously slain and murdered, to the great heaviness of this city,
http://www.historyofyork.org.uk/themes/medieval/king-richard-iii-and-york
It would also be a timely reminder to London that is not and never has been all of England as it so fondly imagines.
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)with a name like Siwsan.
formercia
(18,479 posts)More at 11.
myrna minx
(22,772 posts)Lars77
(3,032 posts)Siwsan
(26,289 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)The best TV series EVER!
Smilo
(1,944 posts).... and how the defeated Henry Tudor escaped with his life, all is revealed in this, the first chapter of a history never before told: the history of... the Black Adder!
Prince Edmund: I shall be known from now on, as the Black Vegetable.
Baldrick: My lord, wouldn't something like the Black Adder sound better?
[Edmund has just cut off the head of King Richard III]
Prince Edmund: [lifting visor of severed head] Oh my God, it's Uncle Richard!
surrealAmerican
(11,363 posts)... although I wonder just how long Richard III has been parked there.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)Bossy Monkey
(15,863 posts)Bossy Monkey
(15,863 posts)MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)pink-o
(4,056 posts)He Shudda asked for an Aston Martin.
Retrograde
(10,152 posts)Or was moonlighting parking cars.
One would think it sort of difficult to misplace a king, but that seems to have happened quite a bit. At least they didn't go in for the French practice of burying a piece here, a piece there, like Richard I (popular king like that you want to share: parts of him are in the Rouen cathedral, with a full-sized tomb no less.)
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)FourScore
(9,704 posts)DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Riftaxe
(2,693 posts)Here is the actual CCTV footage from a nearby convenience store....
"
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)yurbud
(39,405 posts)to turn into a skeleton?
benld74
(9,909 posts)sakabatou
(42,170 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Carolina_Blue
(4 posts)The Tudor chroniclers and Shakespeare himself had every reason to blacken the name of Richard III. After all Henry VII claim to the English throne was dubious at best. To endear themselves to their new lord and master it's not surprising that they were eager to do whatever it took to besmirch and belittle Richard to curry favor with the new King. As to who killed the Princes, many had reason to wish them gone besides Richard (and I'm not saying he didn't do it) but he did love his brother Edward IV and served loyally all his life to his family. We'll probably never know who killed the Princes in the Tower, Richard had reason and so did many others.
As for the Tudor's, thankfully they gave us Elizabeth I or the English world may have had a distinctly Spanish flair. As for her predecessor's Henry VII and VIII the were both failures as King's and the cause of many innocents deaths. Elizabeth was the only Tudor to have had the love and admiration of the English people. The VII and VIII were despised by the commoners. Plus they killed off a magnificent dynasty in the Plantaganet's who provided some of the most admired and powerful Monarch's in English history.
If only Edward IV had the common sense to avoid Elizabeth Woodville and her grasping family. English history would have been very different. If these bones prove to be Richard's I hope he is placed in a proper burial site that will burnish his history and make historians really do further investigations that will bring the truth to light. Richard is often called the last Warrior King of England and to me that says a lot.
Loyaulte me lie
bedazzled
(1,769 posts)he was very loyal to his brother, but because of his brother's poor choice in spouses, the
woodvilles were put into a position of power they were not fit to use. they made many
enemies, most of whom would have profited from making richard look bad. i don't know whether
he killed the princes, but it seems to me that others had more of a motive to profit from it.
fascinating man and fascinating time.
pink-o
(4,056 posts)The common belief is that Shakespeare demonized Richard III to curry favor with Elizabeth, so he's portrayed as being an ugly "hunchback". But if these bones are his, then that part is true...
The skeleton was an adult male, who appeared fit and strong, but with spinal abnormalities that pointed to the fact that he had severe scoliosis, a form of spinal curvature.
This would have made his right shoulder appear higher than his left, and in less enlightened times would almost certainly have been cause for him being nicknamed a "hunchback".
And the other cool part of the article: The scientists are gonna compare the skeleton's DNA to an actual Plantagenet's descendant. Here:
DNA tests are expected to take 12 weeks. The team will compare samples from the skeletal remains with the DNA of a direct descendant of the king's sister, Michael Ibsen, 55, a Canadian furniture maker who lives in London.
Link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9540207/Richard-III-skeleton-reveals-hunchback-king.html
Lars77
(3,032 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Even so, the scoliosis seen in the skeleton would've made the man's right shoulder appear visibly higher than the left one. "This is consistent with contemporary accounts of Richard's appearance," according to the university statement.
Matilda
(6,384 posts)and although it caused Richard's right shoulder to be higher than his left, it's not the same as a hunchback, where the back is completely curved over with a hump on it - the medical term for that is "kyphosis", and it's a different condition.
The hunchback was a theatrical device of Shakespeare, who got his information from the writings of Sir Thomas More, whose informant was his mentor, Bishop John Morton of Ely - an implacable enemy of Richard III. Morton also swore that Richard was in his mother's womb for two years, so that's how reliable he was.
yellowcanine
(35,701 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)that it was a designated Handicap space. The English Crown now owes parking fines in the amount of 7 Billion Pounds Sterling.