Visitors sue National Park Service over policy prohibiting cash payments
Source: The Hill
03/23/24 2:15 PM ET
Three visitors sued the National Park Service (NPS) over their policy of prohibiting cash payments at various locations around the country. Elizabeth Dasburg from Georgia, Esther van der Werf of California and Toby Stover of New York filed a lawsuit in early March, alleging the park services cashless policy is violating the federal law.
The trio said they were not able to use cash when visiting monuments, national parks and other locations in the U.S. Since U.S. currency is legal tender for all public charges, NPSs policy of refusing it at some locations is infringing on federal law, the lawsuit filed on March 6 alleges.
NPSs violation cannot be overlooked, the suit argues, although the plaintiffs are not asking the court to prohibit NPS from accepting credit cards, debit cards, or digital payment methods (such as ApplePay) should visitors to NPS sites prefer to use them. The plaintiffs cash payments were rejected in Georgia, Arizona and New York.
Van der Werf was allegedly barred entry at three different locations in Arizona run by the federal agency. Stover was not able to tour New Yorks Roosevelt-Vanderbilt National Historic Site after attempting to use $10 in cash for the tour. NPS does not accept cash payments at 29 locations, according to the lawsuit.
Read more: https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4551758-visitors-sue-national-park-service-over-policy-prohibiting-cash-payments/
bucolic_frolic
(43,258 posts)I bought a stamp for a package many years ago. I think it was 32 cents. Postal clerk, a little Asian guy in broken English says to me, "Cash, check, or credit card?" He was always joking.
THis is no joke. Imagine traveling all that way and expense and can't go in no way to pay.
jimfields33
(15,933 posts)Many locations where the workers are is off the main drag in a little box. Could easily be robbed. I think they should be exempt from accepting cash in these situations.
Lithos
(26,404 posts)For instance, they can set up kiosks or booths at specific locations and issue tickets that can be used in lieu of cash at the actual site.
RubyRose
(142 posts)7/11s and such that have time locks so cash cant ben quickly taken.
Or treat it almost like a "Lottery". The ticket is your admission - but there is a separate machine doing the transaction. Give a small handling fee to the business involved.
I do agree that it's impractical and unsafe to ask the Park staff to handle money in all cases, but this is a solved problem.
L-
quaint
(2,578 posts)In Hyde Park, New York 3 National Historic Sites are managed together as the Roosevelt-Vanderbilt National Historic Site.
I take your point but disagree with the no-cash policy.
Warpy
(111,329 posts)While that was my first thought, then I had a deeper think when I considered some o the national partks I've visited, especially out west.
The crew is tiny, relally really tiny. There is usually one person at the office, processing the credit cards of people coming in to visit or to camp for a while. One person. Usually an elderly woman who travels around doing seasonal work.
Like it or not, taking cash rhese days increases risk. Nobody's going to care about checks or credit card recepits, but if there is a large amount of cash (recepits plus enough to make change) on site, it's going to become attractive to thieves. This is likely why they stopped accepting cash.
Now I sympathize with some oeople who doin't like or trust banks and keep their funds in ElBanco de Cuervo (the local alternative) and want to pay cash for everything or the paranoids out there who don't want to be traced. The alternative for them is to call ahead and find out what the fee will be, stop at a bank or convenience store before they get there, and buy a money order to cover the cost. Problem solved.
These whiners don't want to do that. They want to put a little old lady at risk so they can have their own way.
What they'll do is get the smaller parks closed down while the larger parks ge more expensive so there can be a security guard there.
So while some suits might seem like a good idea on the surface, look and think about why they're duifferent and why that lawsuit might just be a rotten idea.
Taking cash used to be an acceptable risk before the war on drugs really got going. End that idiocy, defund the gangs, watch street crime drop, and we might be able to use cash again.
IronLionZion
(45,514 posts)For people like me who enjoy America's national parks, I recommend getting the annual pass and not having to worry about any fees anywhere ever again.
Sure I understand not everyone uses the banking system. But we don't want armed robbery of ranger stations by meth heads either.
COVID accelerated the switch to cashless. Lots more people were visiting national parks as an alternative to indoor activities.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)I do have the senior pass, but I do want to be able to pay cash ("Legal tender for all debts public and private" for whatever.
IronLionZion
(45,514 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)Rather assaults, threats to rangers, and increased search and rescue operations. None of those should warrant refusing to accept our country's legal tender.
DBoon
(22,395 posts)Meth heads also use stolen credit card numbers.
An annual pass will get you in the park, but it will not pay for sundries or other expenses besides park entrance.
Ferryboat
(923 posts)Vail owns the local ski area and went cashless. No risk of robbery. Just making life more irritating.
Vail operates under USFS, Dept of Agriculture.
Blues Heron
(5,939 posts)I think they should look at low tech solutions like strongboxes, bullet proof glass, etc.
Red Mountain
(1,737 posts)Cash should be fine but I think it would also be fine for the price to be much higher to cover the higher costs.
Not taking cash is probably cheaper so more money can be spent where it is needed.
Blues Heron
(5,939 posts)why is the government printing all this money if they wont take it? Who is the dangerous money for?
Red Mountain
(1,737 posts)I use Square. I'd guess the government wouldn't need it to do the same thing. Readers are cheap.
The cash is for whoever wants it. Obviously, some are still very attached.
Not going away anytime soon.
The Wizard
(12,547 posts)to counter employee theft.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)and not punish those of us who prefer NOT to use credit or debit cards.
we can do it
(12,190 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)I've never felt in danger of being robbed any time I've been to one.
FakeNoose
(32,722 posts)For example, visitors entering the park could purchase a $50 gift/debit card (or whatever amount) and buy it with cash or credit card. Then they can use that card to purchase anything inside the park and it's a "cashless" purchase. If the card runs out of funds, return to the entrance and put more value on the card using cash or a credit card. When it's time to leave they can turn in the card and get cash back for any value that might be remaining. This would solve most of the problems the parks are having with cash purchases.
erronis
(15,328 posts)pstokely
(10,530 posts)but how do you spend a few cents left on a debt card?
Attilatheblond
(2,197 posts)we can do it
(12,190 posts)You can purchase ahead of time and avoid all this drama.
FakeNoose
(32,722 posts)Once visitors gain entrance to the national parks, they can purchase food and other retail items while there. The issue with cash purchases means that park employees (as well as the visitors) have been subject to thefts and there aren't enough security people to hold down the crime rate.
By using closed-system debit cards it would dampen the petty crimes by quite a bit. Even if thieves made off with someone's debit card, they could only use it inside the parks, and it's hardly worth the trouble.
niyad
(113,527 posts)debit card in some suitable amount at a supermarket or some such place prior to heading to these venues.
Wonder Why
(3,233 posts)niyad
(113,527 posts)keopeli
(3,524 posts)An alternate method of using a 'cash card' system is a good idea.
There are ways of dealing with the modern 'risk' of accepting cash without prohibiting cash. No one should be forced to pay a third-party to avoid accepting cash. You are paying for the service, even if it's not a cash fee that is collected. And, you have to give your personal info to use a third-party. We need cash in our society and the government, who issues all cash, should be beholden to accepting their own money as a legal form of payment.
MichMan
(11,960 posts)Why not?
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)But even I, a strong promoter of cash, know that's a truly stupid idea.
Perhaps you could fill out your tax form, and if you owe money, go to your nearest IRS office and offer cash. They really ought to accept it. That would be an interesting experiment.
marybourg
(12,634 posts)Cash is not one of them.
keopeli
(3,524 posts)I realize checks are old school, but they are considered a cash payment. Checks are not at all like credit/debit cards. If you don't have a bank, you use a money order. Does the NPS accept checks/money orders? I doubt it.
MichMan
(11,960 posts)If government agencies were required to accept cash? Do you think that is why the plaintiffs sued them? For not taking their check?
keopeli
(3,524 posts)A person can do that all day, but it's not a real argument. Yes, the IRS takes cash in the form of checks. I have no idea if the NPS takes a check. But, as I said, the NPS should accept cash payments in some form, not just credit/debit cards. A "cash card" system would be a good solution, as another poster mentioned. It's not right to only accept credit/debit cards, which requires a citizen to go through a third-party and is dependent on credit history and worthiness among other restrictions. To address your question, if the NPS offered some type of cash payment (like a 'cash card' from a machine on premises, for instance), I do not think the plaintiffs would have sued. That has nothing to do with whether they accept a check.
That's all for now. Thank you for the discussion!
IbogaProject
(2,828 posts)Here is an article by an Economist who is writing a book about the benefits of using cash, who had to go twice to successfully pay his balance in cash.
https://fortune.com/2023/04/10/paying-taxes-with-cash-economist/
marybourg
(12,634 posts)Choosing to enter a National Park is not paying a debt. I think this has already been adjudicated once, but Im not about to research it.
keopeli
(3,524 posts)niyad
(113,527 posts)registet the thing. And in small amounts, there is no need to.
keopeli
(3,524 posts)obamanut2012
(26,111 posts)PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)I will never go back there.
"Good for all debts public and private" strikes me as requiring businesses to take my cash.
I pay all of my day-to-day purchases/expenses in cash. I find it's a much better way to manage my money. I've found that those who pay for everything with credit or debit card tend to spend all of their money and then some, get and remain in debt.
I get a set sum of money from my ATM every Monday, and divide it up into various envelopes: Clothing, Cats, Entertainment, Miscellaneous, and Health and Well Being. The remainder goes into my wallet to pay for groceries and day-to-day expenses. If I need new clothes, I see how much I have in the clothing envelope. When I need to get stuff for my cats, the same. The Miscellaneous envelope will pay for unexpected shortfalls in the other categories.
Here's the thing. With this system I find it easy to stay within my budget/limited income. I'm even saving money, which is nice.
Someone needs to sue a company that won't take cash. I do normally have a credit card with me, but I should go in to one of those places and say I have cash, and only cash with me.
Oh, at that restaurant the friend I was with gave her credit card, which is how she prefers to pay for things, and I gave her the cash for my purchase.
I am not saying people shouldn't use credit cards. I am saying cash is legal tender for all debts, public and private, and I cannot comprehend how any business can refuse to accept it.
And spare me the "dangerous neighborhood" crap. The restaurant I went to was in a very secure area of our city, surrounded by other restaurants that had no problem accepting cash.
Jedi Guy
(3,246 posts)There is no federal statute saying they're required to do so, and the "legal tender for all debts public and private" doesn't carry the force of law. Any business is free to decide their own policy with regard to cash payments.
For many businesses, it's more advantageous to refuse cash. There's no currency for thieves (or employees with sticky fingers) to steal, less likelihood of the till being over or short, no need to even have a cash box or lock box, no need to make an employee or manager deposit the money at the end of the day, etc.
The move to a cashless society was already underway, albeit very gradually. The pandemic accelerated that since currency has repeatedly been shown to be absolutely filthy and can be a vector for disease. The federal government would benefit since they'd no longer have to run the mints, as well.
Within twenty years, we'll be a cashless society and those who use cash will be an extremely tiny minority, if cash is still available at all. Can't happen fast enough, as far as I'm concerned. I hate carrying cash and avoid it if at all possible.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,881 posts)I vastly prefer paying cash for things. It helps me budget.
I've noticed for years now that those who exclusively use credit or debit cards, invariably spend more. Example: You want to buy a pack of gum, only have credit or debit card, no cash, and there's a $5.00 minimum to use a card. So you buy a bunch of other stuff. If you had even five dollars cash in your wallet you could just pay for the gum.
Oh, and can you give me specific example of people who have gotten any kind of a disease from the "filthy" cash?
NoRethugFriends
(2,325 posts)Are you credit cards and get 2% back on everything except 3% supermarket and 5% gas. For any reason I couldn't I would use a debit card if somebody didn't want cash.
I've saved {made} a lot of money over the years using credit cards.
Not to mention getting credit cards that have bonuses for signing up and then saving on motel rooms and airplane flights.
My experience does not fit all, but neither does yours.
Jedi Guy
(3,246 posts)With respect, it sounds a little bit like a self-discipline problem that you're extrapolating from yourself to others.
To your example, if there's a $5 minimum for card purchases and all I want is a pack of gum that's $1.50, I don't buy the gum. I'll go to another store where there isn't a $5 minimum. Or, if my car needs gas, I'll buy gas and add the gum. I was going to buy the gas eventually anyway, so I'm not overspending. Simple solutions for a very simple problem.
And no, I can't point you to a specific example of a specific person who got sick and it was confirmed beyond a doubt that the vector for the disease was cash. Which is, of course, why you asked for a specific example: to set up a scenario I can't possibly prove. People get sick all the time and unless contact tracing and such is carried out, it can't be proven where they picked up the pathogen.
However, studies have shown that paper currency routinely carries pathogens such as E. coli, among others, while coins are more hospitable to other pathogens. Here's just one, from the National Library of Medicine.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24571076/
niyad
(113,527 posts)When I was in the casinos, there was a state wide incidence of "pink eye", spread by the dirty money in the casinos. Everyone who handled paper money took precautions, used LOTS of alcohol/so-called "wet wipes", after every transaction. It was a bloody nightmare.
we can do it
(12,190 posts)DBoon
(22,395 posts)My card was flagged for fraudulent transactions twice in 4 months.
I now use cash for all transactions under $20 and with all service stations.
If National Parks aren't secure against robberies, they certainly aren't secure against card skimmers.
I would hate to be camping at a National Park, find out my card has been locked for fraudulent purchases, and unable to use cash for purchases.
Elessar Zappa
(14,033 posts)So can government agencies. And youre going to see it more and more as society becomes more cashless. Case in point, I was at a college basketball game and the concession stand was only accepting cards. I was surprised by that.
pstokely
(10,530 posts)does anyplace that's gone cashless have a credit card surchage?
chouchou
(641 posts)Elessar Zappa
(14,033 posts)Crime overall is at record lows actually.
chouchou
(641 posts)..I would wonder why they started to instigate the new policy of zero cash. Have there been robberies?
If there was, I suspect they would not want the public to know (out of fear)
or, perhaps someone (high up) is just being paranoid.
Think. Again.
(8,359 posts)...that so many businesses, and even governmental services such a the NPS, are so easily willing to forego the sanctity that our National currency should be awarded.
woodsprite
(11,923 posts)Im surprised they were never sued.
Prairie_Seagull
(3,335 posts)and to make lines quicker then. they IMO can just figure out the mechanics of how to take cash quicker. If this is truly a safety thing then, it poses the problem of omitting a segment of the population that for whatever reason don' have cards. I believe if the federal government can do this what is to stop others from taking up this practice.
If the people can take the risk of carrying cash. The feds should take the risk accepting it.
The slippery slope argument can in some cases be full of shit but in this case to me it seems more real.
Good morning to all.
IronLionZion
(45,514 posts)my 2 closest national parks to DC both take cash.
LisaM
(27,827 posts)I have plenty of alternatives (though I really recoil at the idea of Google Pay and don't use that). But with cash, I can kind of track how much I spend at an event like a baseball game or concert. It's also very useful for tipping.
I have been at places where the credit card system went down and then it's really a pain. That must happen at the parks from time to time. What do they do then, close the park?
IronLionZion
(45,514 posts)and most of the parks allow third parties to sell passes at local businesses and chamber of commerce type offices. Those can take cash if they want. I expect this lawsuit is going nowhere.
On the flip side, there are some local restaurants that have been cash only since the 1970s and will never change. They don't want to deal with credit card fees apparently.
Here's a useful site for getting passes and tickets ahead of time if you like https://www.recreation.gov/ I have the America The Beautiful interagency annual pass and recommend it.
Prairie_Seagull
(3,335 posts)We went out to a nice lunch yesterday. 300 bucks or so. When it came time to check out. I brought the cash to do so. The very good waitress brought the bill in that little pleather thingy they put the bill in and I put in it the cash and a nice tip. She grabbed it and walked away. Got about 10 feet away and opened it noticing it had cash in it. She came to a full stop did some quick math and was in the process of turning around and decided not to. Accepted it and we went on our merry way.
This is going to become an issue, I believe. My answer is to use more cash and in my own way try to make the point when confronted. What will it do? Probably not much except to make me feel like I am doing SOMETHING.
I have cash stashed in my car and in my home and have plenty of plastic just in case.
This push to all plastic is wrong headed in my view. Where does it lead? Is that progress? and for whom? Multi-national corporations. A percentage is charged to use plastic. Will this cost be passed to the consumer. I know it is sometimes. You know the card companies want this money. I'd prefer it if they don't get it
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)and have workers deposit any cash in a safe to which they have no access.
Post signs that explain all this where everyone can see.
Safe is emptied periodically by an armed guard.
Result: no incentive to rob.
Problem solved.
ripcord
(5,499 posts)One of the big problems is what to do with the cash at parks that are nowhere near cities, it must cost a lot to have an armored car make a run to Death Valley to make their collections. And there is a greater chance of crime at out of the way parks many of which have their entrance areas a good distance from the park headquarters.
twodogsbarking
(9,795 posts)Mosby
(16,342 posts)Taking cash requires staff, usually management to maintain cash on hand (the tills), somewhere to put it (a safe) and regular deposits to a "nearby" bank.
Management needs to create, implement, and audit cash control policies, where the funds are recorded multiple times a day, bank runs including change orders are made several times a week, and the deposits are verified by a management employee who is authorized to access the bank account.
When employees make these bank runs, they have to be checked in, their vehicle needs to be insured and the employee needs to return to the site with the change order and update the tills and safe balance.
underpants
(182,868 posts)Ive handled a couple bank accounts at different organizations. Theres a cost associated with everything and it takes time. As far as the vehicles, the NPS has a lot of vehicles. The Feeds buy a certain amount (many) vehicles from the major US car manufacturers every year. Many years ago I read that NPS has a vehicle per every 4 employees.
Wonder Why
(3,233 posts)Mosby
(16,342 posts)The exact opposite is true, restaurants are one of the main proponents of cashless sales models.
This article discusses both sides.
https://www.delish.com/food/a27457960/cashless-restaurant-trend-is-dying/
Restaurants also have to consider the distraction and the down-a-person reality of having to send an employee to the bank to get change, or to deposit money several times a day. Or they may have to pay for deposit bag pick-ups, which is one more expense to consider as restaurants try to cut back on labor costs.
They go on to mention robberies, which don't happen in cashless establishments, which makes for a safer environment for the employees and customers.
Wonder Why
(3,233 posts)or give a 3-4% discount for cash. I'm not talking big chains because I do not eat at them locally or on the road. I'm talking about owners having a single restaurant.
And almost all of them started in the last year. Only one AFAIK has always been cash only.
Mosby
(16,342 posts)Probably due to some lawsuits. I was part of one. The range now is 1.5 to 2.5 percent.
There is another, somewhat common reason why a small business prefers cash, and that's because the money is not reported to the state revenue department like cc transactions are. Not only can the money be kept off the books so to speak, but the tax collected by the merchant can also go unreported. This is what drives the 2.5 TRILLION dollar underground economy. No payroll tax, no social security tax, no Medicare tax, and maybe no sales taxed paid. I have been in banks making deposits where a truck pulls up with a company name of the door and the owner withdraws 5-10 thousand dollars. That's his payroll. I've been in small convenience stores with double registers (old school of course, x/z reads only) where they run cc transactions on one and cash transactions on the other. I have hired contractors who give me a cc price and a cash price.
Personally I would be wary of a restaurant that only takes cash. It's shady AF.
DC77
(106 posts)I can find no precedent where this issue was decided in the context of a federal agencies such as the National Park Service and U.S. Dept. of the Interior. I dont want to pay PACER to download the Complaint, which may have additional info. If it gets to briefing, I would like to see any cited cases and compare the facts to this one.
The rationale for the refusal is logical per this article
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/experience/national-parks/2024/03/20/national-park-service-lawsuit-cashless-entry/73041024007/:
The number of formal banks with relationships with the Treasury Department, where we could actually take cash, has really dried up especially in more rural or remote areas, he said.
That combined with the closure of many brick and mortar banks force park staff to take that cash even farther to deposit, costing both time and money. Death Valley spent roughly $40,000 a year on processing and transporting cash, according to the park.
For a private business (not the issue but this is the legal code cited by plaintiffs), it may refuse to accept cash per the Federal Reserve:
Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.
Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," states: "United States coins and currency [including Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal Reserve Banks and national banks] are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues." This statute means that all U.S. money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor.
BumRushDaShow
(129,376 posts)that mentioned that one of the plaintiffs is using an attorney from RFK Jr,'s loon organization.
They claim they want "no monetary damages", just a "declarative" about the policy.
IcyPeas
(21,901 posts)One truck was selling fresh donuts. I went to get one donut and saw their sign saying they didn't accept cash. I decided not to get the donut.
And I do understand cash is dirty and they don't want to be handling cash. And they are not going to pay a person solely to handle cash in a food truck. I get it.
Next time, I'll probably just get the damn donut with a credit card.
🍩 🍩 🍩
Any place that puts up barriers to doing business will not get my business. And I'm not really much of a cash person, I just don't like our society's increased imposition of rules, rules, rules, every damn place you go. Same with the "download our app" crowd. And I won't use a credit card if you charge me a fee. I will, however, promise to never use a check in a retail business.
XanaDUer2
(10,725 posts)Download its menu. Are you fucking kidding me? Covid? They cough up a regular menu when we threatened to leave
WiVoter
(909 posts)And I think a big part of this is tracking/data mining. It's my business if I buy a Coke or a Pepsi, etc.
Prairie_Seagull
(3,335 posts)onenote
(42,747 posts)Even the buskers have readers so that instead of throwing a couple of paper bills in a hat, you tap the reader.
Hekate
(90,773 posts)we can do it
(12,190 posts)And sorry, it makes zero sense not looking at websites for remote parks first, since they could be closed or have timed entry or other restrictions.
XanaDUer2
(10,725 posts)Id wasn't too pay in cash too. The fuck
DirtySausage
(8 posts)But I feel our national parks and state parks for that matter should be 100% free for all Americans. One shouldn't have to pay to enjoy that beauty.
rockfordfile
(8,704 posts)They should take cash.