U.S. Army considering removing portraits of Confederate Generals Lee and 'Stonewall' Jackson from sc

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Daily Mail

U.S. Army considering removing portraits of Confederate Generals Lee and 'Stonewall' Jackson from school for army generals

• Portraits of famous Confederate generals could soon be removed from the U.S. Army War College in Pennsylvania
  
• The college is debating about how appropriate it is to honor men who fought against the United States
  
• The outcome could spark change for portraits in other military installations and government buildings
  

By Daily Mail Reporter
PUBLISHED: 14:08 EST, 18 December 2013 | UPDATED: 15:07 EST, 18 December 2013

Portraits of famous Confederate generals Robert Lee and Thomas ‘Stonewall’ Jackson could soon be removed from the walls of the U.S. Army War College in Pennsylvania, where senior military leaders go to study.

An inventory of the paintings and photographs at the college has prompted a debate about how appropriate it is for the college to honor men who fought against the United States and in favor of slavery.

‘I do know at least one person has questioned why we would honor individuals who were enemies of the United States Army,’ college spokeswoman Carol Kerr said.

Portraits of famous Confederate generals Robert Lee, pictured, and Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson could soon be removed from the walls of the U.S. Army War College in Pennsylvania, where senior military leaders go to study

She confirmed to the Washington Post that one faculty member had taken down the portraits of Lee and Jackson as part of the inventory process and placed them on the ground.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525984/U-S-Army-considering-removing-portraits-Confederate-Generals-Lee-Stonewall-Jackson-Army-War-College.html#ixzz2nrOvClEj

[winstars]

1. Oh boy, this should get stupid pretty fast... nt

[Tom Ripley]

2. Not only seditious, but looking at losers also dampens enthusiasm

[Journeyman]

3. How about renaming Ft. Bragg, Ft. Hood, Ft. Benning, Ft. Gordon, and maybe dozens more? . . .

There are an incredible number of military bases named after Confederate officers. Let's start with the real, solid honors, then work our way down to the piddly photos.

[GP6971]

7. 9 Army installations

named after confederate generals; Forts A.P. Hill, Benning, Bragg, Gordon, Hood, Lee, Polk, Rucker and Pickett

[doc03]

12. How about changing Fort Gordon to Fort William Tecumseh Sherman and

Fort Jackson to Fort Ulysses S. Grant.

[jmowreader]

85. No. Rename Fort Bragg to Fort William Tecumseh Sherman.

The city Fort Bragg lies on the outskirts of, Fayettenam, NC, was the location of the Confederacy's largest arms plant, the Fayetteville Arsenal. It is also the city Sherman destroyed the worst during his March to the Sea.

Helpful hint: if you have a son named Sherman and you are thinking of moving to Fayetteville, enroll him in karate class NOW.

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

77. And...

Fort Jackson, Fort Polk, Fort Lee, Fort A.P. Hill, etc...

[Kingofalldems]

91. Yep.

[yurbud]

97. I didn't know those were named after confederates--that sucks.

[geek tragedy]

4. Why not have Rommel and Santa Ana up there as well? nt

[yurbud]

98. if it was great generals of world history or great generals we have faced, that would be ok

but not just confederate mixed in with American ones.

[PatrynXX]

5. I'd probably be against this

if we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. can understand renaming a school thats named after someone in the KKK but these are still americans. Suppose Hitler will be struck out of the history books next

[Thor_MN]

31. It's not removong them from history, it's removing them from an honor.

They wanted to not be part of the US so badly that they fought a war for it. They had to be forced to remain US Citizens.

Keep them in the history books, but on par with other enemies of the United States.

[Bandit]

50. Benedict Arnold was an American, should we honor him as well?

Treason is Treason and the Confederacy was guilty of Treason..

[Kaleva]

63. I don't think any member of the Confederate Army was ever charged with treason.

Benedict Arnold would have been tried and hanged if he had been captured but off the top of my head, I can't think of a single Confederate who had served in the military forces and was ever tried for such a crime. The President of the CSA, Jefferson Davis, was accused of treason but wasn't tried and was released from prison two years after being captured.

[warrant46]

96. It was part of Grant's surrender bargain

They had to give up their military rifles and battle flags and go home.

Most of the military rifles were already outdated and useless compared to what was coming from Colt, Remington and Winchester.

[LanternWaste]

80. It's not denying history... it's simply denying glorification to those who fought against America

It's not denying history... it's simply denying glorification to those who fought against America. Unless you have some insight that the confederate generals, their strategies and tactics, and their consequences will indeed be removed from history books

[lostincalifornia]

6. They should not do it. They are part of the history of the of the country. This is not the same

Not the same Thing as hanging the confederate flag in public buildings, that stood for slavery period, and has no business being hung in a public building, because it would implicitly express support for that.

Portraits of generals do not demonstrate the same thing, it is a historical perspective

[WatermelonRat]

53. Benedict Arnold is far more deserving of honor than these Confederates

[GP6971]

70. Same thing for

Aaron Burr? I would guess not. But to many, still a traitor because of the duel with Hamilton.

[WatermelonRat]

74. No, it was the whole "trying to carve his own private country out of the Louisiana Purchase" thing

that made Burr a traitor.

[bobclark86]

8. Because after the war...

we considered them Americans again. It was when we realized if we want to have the southern half of the country as part of the nation, rather than a subservient cluster producing cotton, we needed to bring our nation together.

Oh, and Lee and Jackson did more with less than any military commander since. Statistically, they should have gotten spanked at Bull Run. And Bull Run (the second time). And Fredericksburg. And Chancellorsville. And Petersburg. They were outnumbered and outgunned at every turn. Robert E. Lee is the reason the rebellion lasted so long. He made two really big mistakes, though:

1) He didn't listen to Longstreet and stick to a defensive campaign. The technology of the time made frontal assaults on entrenched positions suicide. Napoleonic tactics based on smoothbore muskets and unrifled artillery -- when the majority of men killed in combat died from stab wounds from bayonets, not bullets or artillery shells -- should have went out the window in the Crimean War 10 years earlier. Instead, they lasted another 50 and got tens of millions of people killed around the world.

2) He picked the wrong side.

Military leaders need to learn from these men. It's why some Abrams and Bradleys in the Gulf War had pictures of Erwin Rommel, the Nazi "Desert Fox" in their crew compartments.

BTW, should we rename Fort Lee, Fort Hood, et. al?

[skepticscott]

11. Well, that was why

The US didn't prosecute them all for treason, but that doesn't mean that what they did wasn't treason.

Were they excellent military commanders? Sure. They were still traitors, and time hasn't changed that.

[atreides1]

25. Not all

On May 29, 1865, President Andrew Johnson issued a Proclamation of Amnesty and Pardon to persons who had participated in the rebellion against the United States. There were fourteen excepted classes, though, and members of those classes had to make special application to the President. Lee sent an application to Grant and wrote to President Johnson on June 13, 1865:

Being excluded from the provisions of amnesty & pardon contained in the proclamation of the 29th Ulto; I hereby apply for the benefits, & full restoration of all rights & privileges extended to those included in its terms. I graduated at the Mil. Academy at West Point in June 1829. Resigned from the U.S. Army April '61. Was a General in the Confederate Army, & included in the surrender of the Army of N. Virginia 9 April '65.[91]

On October 2, 1865, the same day that Lee was inaugurated as president of Washington College in Lexington, Virginia, he signed his Amnesty Oath, thereby complying fully with the provision of Johnson's proclamation. Lee was not pardoned, nor was his citizenship restored. The fact that he had submitted an amnesty oath at all was soon lost to history.

Apparently Secretary of State William H. Seward had given Lee's application to a friend as a souvenir, and the State Department had pigeonholed the oath. More than a hundred years later, in 1970, an archivist at the National Archives discovered Lee's Amnesty Oath among State Department records (reported in Prologue, Winter 1970). For 110 years Lee remained without a country, as the Confederacy had dissolved and Lee's United States application and oath were lost and disregarded.
President Johnson's second amnesty pardon



President Andrew Johnson, in a proclamation dated December 25, 1868 (15 Stat. 711), gave an unconditional pardon to those who "directly or indirectly" rebelled against the United States.

... unconditionally, and without reservation, to all and every person who directly or indirectly participated in the late insurrection or rebellion, a full pardon and amnesty for the offense of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws which have been made in pursuance thereof.

Lee, with this full amnesty pardon by President Johnson, could not be held liable for treason or insurrection against the United States. Lee was posthumously officially reinstated as a United States citizen by President Gerald Ford in 1975.

[skepticscott]

9. Well, what they did constituted black letter treason

So why the United States should honor them has always been a mystery. I'm sure this will send the drooling neo-confederates and their handlers into orbit, though.

[KatyMan]

26. Agree with this.

Imagine a black student going to Robert E. Lee High School? You know going in you're going to be beat down.

[skepticscott]

29. Not as badly as you would be

at Nathan Bedford Forrest High School. Where Fort Pillow Day would probably be a holiday.

[progressoid]

39. Like being a Native American going to Custer High School.

Yes, there are such schools.

[skepticscott]

45. Custer was kind of a dickhead anyway

And not a particularly great military leader. If he hadn't been one the most famous losers in history, most people wouldn't even know his name.

But if I were a Native American going to Custer High School, I'd probably be thinking every day "Yeah…kicked his sorry white ass"

[progressoid]

52. That's about all they have.

Since then, the Native Americans in that area have been royally screwed.

I was there a couple years ago and saw a young man with a t-shirt with this on it:

[NobodyHere]

60. Should we rename Washington DC?

After all should black people be living in a city named after a slave holder?

[NoGOPZone]

78. We should

I can't see the point in honoring Columbus

[kwassa]

66. Robert E. Lee High School in Fairfax County, VA. Student profile:

In the 2012-2013 school year, Lee High School's student body was 32.77% Hispanic, 23.80% White, 26.61% Asian, 14.10% Black, and 3.21% other. [1]

I took evening classes at J.E.B. Stuart High School, also in Fairfax.

Fairfax has some of the best public schools in the country, including the very best, Thomas Jefferson.

[Xithras]

75. Because we're a nation of laws, and they were pardoned and cleared of their crimes.

On December 25, 1868 (three and a half years after their surrender) President Andrew Johnson provided an unconditional pardon to all members of the Confederate armed forces, which included Lee and Jackson.

Robert E Lee was a US military general until he joined the Confederates. Johnson's proclamation not only cleared Lee and other Confederate leaders of their crimes, but restored the rights and privileges they would have otherwise held. Any questions about the applicability of those pardons to Lee specifically were set aside by President Ford in 1975, when he issued another proclamation clarifying Lee's citizenship.

Legally speaking, Lee committed no crimes against the United States. While he can be accused of treason, he was never arrested, tried, or convicted of any crime. Johnson's amnesty ensured that any legal sanctions against Lee and his ilk were lifted, restoring their previous honors.

I personally believe that Lee should have been tried for treason, but the politics and realities of that day conspired to keep him a free man. One of the cornerstones of American culture and jurisprudence is that we don't punish people for crimes they weren't convicted of committing. In the cast of the Confederate generals, it means that we continue to offer military honors to their leaders.

[1000words]

10. Lee and Jackson were very capable leaders and tacticians

Whats the harm if they are included at an institution where "senior military leaders go to study?"

[skepticscott]

13. No harm in studying their campaigns

and their tactics. But this is about not honoring them with portraits on the wall.

[1000words]

15. You can still respect your enemy

[skepticscott]

18. "Respect" and "honor" are not the same

And most of our enemies were not committing treason against the United States, they were simply fighting for the nation they lived in.

[1000words]

20. Fair enough

At some point, though, both sides are going to have to finally stop fighting the war.

[skepticscott]

23. To the extent it is still being fought

the battle is largely being waged in the deep south, where Confederate battle flags still adorn pickup trucks and government buildings, and where slavery and segregation are still yearned for.

[Major Hogwash]

73. And that's the problem in a nutshell.

If they weren't revered by so many white men in the South, and always referred to as "patriots of the South" it wouldn't be that big of a deal since it is part of our history.
But, it is time to move on to a new chapter in our history.

[Orsino]

94. This.

All the modern talk of secession and military coups make the honoring of these generals more than merely questionable.

Lee at least played a valuable role in healing the nation after war, but his portrait should forever have an asterisk next to it, as should Jackson's.

[LanternWaste]

81. As soon as Confederate Battle flags are removed from government offices, I imagine it will be...

"both sides are going to have to finally stop fighting the war..."

As soon as Confederate Battle flags are removed from government offices and state flags, I imagine it will be...

[KatyMan]

27. So was Rommel. And Sepp

Dietrich. should we honor them? What about Zhukov and the rest of the Red Army leaders who led the scorched earth policy on the eastern front? They won didn't they?

[1000words]

32. If the criteria is military excellence, yes. Alas, this is a political statement.

Wouldn't be the first time the two have butted heads.

I'd include Giap too, btw.

[KatyMan]

34. So should they be honored with portraits?

the point isn't studying their tactics but honoring them with portraits. Putting up a painting of someone in the Army War College suggests approval of their actions, not just studying their tactics.

[1000words]

36. My perspective mirrors that of the Zulu

Those who were able to defeat them in battle were revered. They figured they had much to learn from them.

[KatyMan]

37. Revere Nazis. Ok n/t

[1000words]

38. If oversimplication is the goal ... we have reached the end game.

By the way, Rommel paid with his life for his role in plotting Hitler's assassination.

[KatyMan]

40. it wasn't an oversimplification.

You said the Zulu revered those who defeated them in battle. The implication was that people like Rommel, who defeated the Allies in battle many times, should be revered.
Sure he paid with his life. But if the war was going better, I'll bet he would've gone with the flow, as he'd mostly done up until 1944.

Besides, this is about Lee and Forrest. Should these men be honored at all by the US or the US gov't? I think not. Traitors to the core, as was said, I believe, down thread.

[1000words]

43. It's likely Gen. Colin Powell's portrait hangs at the institution

Now, his performance at the UN suggests a less than "honorable" man, considering his role was facilitating crimes against humanity. And don't you think his proven involvement in the My Lai massacre muddies the water a bit, as well? Yet, he is revered.

Yes, oversimplification.

[KatyMan]

46. so take it down.

maybe we as a society need to grow up and stop honoring killers.

[1000words]

48. Alas ... we agree!

A pleasure, KatyMan.

[KatyMan]

49. same to you 1KW...

have a great holiday!

[1000words]

51. And you, as well.

P.S. I like what you did there with my handle!

[LanternWaste]

82. Your position was taken to a valid and logical conclusion.

Your position was taken to a valid and logical conclusion-- completely different from oversimplifying a thing... two wholly separate concepts, you see.

[CBGLuthier]

14. Well.. A traitor is a traitor.

Shame they turned out bad but throw the fuckers away as a lesson to those future traitors that they too shall not be cherished.

[former9thward]

16. This is no different than Stalin airbrushing Trotsky out of photos.

The U.S. should be above this anti-history revisionism.

[Sognefjord]

19. Great point! There is a whole book about this.

The Vanishing Commissar. Some people did this with the picture of the White House room where people were supervising the attack on Bin laden. The women got airbrushed out of the picture.

[skepticscott]

22. Oh please. No one is talking about erasing all record

of these men, and rewriting history to look like they never even existed. We're talking about taking their pictures off the wall in one facility. This is no more "anti-history revisionism" than renaming Stalingrad or Leningrad.

[former9thward]

28. If the logic is that they should be banned because they are traitors ...

Then the next step will be to take their pictures and names out of history books. No one is talking about it now but these things always start out small then expand rapidly. Stalingrad and Leningrad simply reverted to their original pre-Soviet names.

[skepticscott]

47. As noted, remembering them and honoring them are not at all the same

and there is no legitimate reason that not doing one will inevitably lead to not doing to the other. And if you think in this day and age of mass media that anyone could manage to erase these people from history, you're fooling yourself. The Civil War is too extensively recorded to even imagine such a thing.

[CFLDem]

76. +1

[LanternWaste]

83. Removing a portrait from a government building is precisely the same thing as historical revisionism

Removing a portrait from a government building is precisely the same thing as historical revisionism? Wow.

That's gotta be one of the most stinging indictments of public education yet... regardless of whether it was truly satirical, or merely petulance.

[former9thward]

84. Everything has a starting point.

Take your dismissive attitude to someone who cares.

[DeSwiss]

93. Oww.

- That's gonna leave a mark!

[yurbud]

17. Do they have a portrait of Timothy McVeigh too?

[Steviehh]

21. Confederate generals

I support studying the best generals for battle technique. Hate them or love them, Lee and Stonewall Jackson were battle geniuses. I hope that Alexander the Great is studied as well. Geniuses should be studied.

Elevating them to cultural icons is the real sin.

[eShirl]

24. either take them down or add Benedict Arnold

[Historic NY]

44. There are 2 monuments to ------.

one at West Point - a metal plaque say "Major General"
one at Saratoga - the boot memorial

[livingwagenow]

30. They were America hating traitors, nothing more. knr nt

[Nye Bevan]

33. I hope there are no portraits of George Washington in Buckingham Palace (nt)

[KatyMan]

35. Funnily

in the square outside the National Gallery building in Trafalgar Square in London there is a statue of Ol'George. I always thought that was weird when I saw it. A quote I read said "Washington apparently said, 'I will never set foot in London again!' so dirt was brought from Virginia and that's what he's standing on."

[Historic NY]

41. Abe Lincoln hangs out around Parliament...

[packman]

42. Bit torn on this

I agree 100% about some Civil War generals being overly worshipped by people who should know better, but I would hope that our future military be exposed to the tactics of Jackson and Lee. I remember my first trip south through Rockville, Maryland where a bronze statue of a Confederate soldier stood in the town square. I felt it was an "in your face" statement that this is the South so the hell with you.
However, there is no denying that Lee (regardless of his misplaced loyality) and several Confederate officers fought battles that deserve study and consideration in future fields of conflict.

[tblue37]

54. Maybe they could establish a separate area or room for the portraits. nt

[tabasco]

55. Yeah, and call it the "Traitorous Fucks Who Resorted To War To Destroy The Country Room."

Good idea

[tblue37]

56. Precisely. nt

[geek tragedy]

72. Separate but equal, the way modern Confederates prefer nt

[tabasco]

88. Quite incorrect.

Please continue.

[kwassa]

67. I've been to Rockville many times and have never seen the statue.

I live about ten miles north of there. The irony is that Montgomery County is one of the most progressive counties in the country right now. Downtown Rockville has been entirely rebuilt, too.

It was a slave state, a divided one, that ended up on the Union side in the fight.

Not quite like Monument Avenue in Richmond.

[packman]

68. It was in 1964

I do believe they removed it sometime in the 70's.

[kwassa]

71. It was moved for urban renewal.

It is apparently still around, though not in a place of prominence.

Rockville is the county seat, and has been completely reconstructed over the past 30 years.

[packman]

86. Bothered me

thinking that early onset Alzheimer clouded my memories, so I looked it up and found on Wikipedia:

During the American Civil War, General George B. McClellan stayed at the Beall Dawson house in 1862. In addition, General J.E.B. Stuart and an army of 8,000 Confederate cavalrymen marched through and occupied Rockville on June 28, 1863 while on their way to Gettysburg and stayed at the Prettyman house. Jubal Anderson Early had also crossed through Maryland on his way to and from his attack on Washington. A monument to the Confederate soldier is hidden behind the old courthouse building [8][9] The monument was dedicated on June 3, 1913 at a cost of $3,600.
''
Undoubtedly, as Rockville became more populous and started to become more cosmopolitan during the 60's thru the 90's, the city became more aware of the message the monument spoke to and "rededicated" it to a less prominent location than the town square I passed through in 1964.

[kwassa]

87. Rockville Pike was the main highway between DC and Frederick.

Anyone marching to or from Washington to Pennsylvania would pass on this road. It passed through Rockville on it's way to Frederick, MD. Both Confederate and Union soldiers used the road, including my great-grandfather who was with the First Maine Cavalry.

This one road has many names. It starts as Wisconsin Avenue in DC, becomes Rockville Pike until Rockville, then Hungerford Drive in Rockville, and then Frederick Road after that, until it reaches Frederick. About 50 miles or so.

The Beall Dawson house is about 4 blocks west of the new Rockville Town Center.

[Kingofalldems]

92. I remember that statue growing up there. Right in the middle of town.

I am pretty sure it can be seen in the movie 'Lilith', filmed in Rockville.

[Supersedeas]

57. Why now--for years they hang in honor--now they are placed on the ground?

they represent American military history...they represent leaders of men from the south who fought and died as part of American history....but now they are relegated to the ground after hanging on the halls of a military college for decades??

strange timing huh?

[1000words]

65. That is why I referred to the decision as a "political statement."

[Orsino]

95. So is Galileo's exoneration by the Church.

That we have begun to question the honor of those long revered as heroes indicates evolution on our part.

[LiberalFighter]

58. Really? All this time they were given spots at the school? Wow!!

[Ash_F]

59. Military leadership hates Black people so much

that they would venerate those who fought to destroy their country. That this is being debated shows that times are changing, however slowly and behind.

[Kaleva]

61. By law, veterans of the Confederate military are considered US veterans.

[Supersedeas]

62. Do we dishonor the grave sites of the fallen too?

[Kaleva]

64. The grave of Confederate vets are treated the same as any US veteran's grave.

[GP6971]

69. So true. n/t

[4bucksagallon]

79. Just like the Confederate flag.............

There really is only one flag the Rebels embraced and that is the white flag of surrender.

[Pterodactyl]

89. I'd say remove them. They were treasonous enemies of the US Army.

[jsr]

90. Give them to The Citadel