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Newsjock

(11,733 posts)
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:31 PM Jan 2014

Pelosi: Snowden should 'come back and face the music'

Source: San Francisco Chronicle

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi says fugitive Edward Snowden — the intelligence analyst who blew the whistle on National Security Agency data-gathering of millions of Americans’ phone records and other surveillance — should not be granted clemency, but should “come back and face the music for what he did.”

Pelosi, D-San Francisco, who serves on the House Intelligence Committee, was asked about Snowden during a meeting Monday with The Chronicle’s editorial board.

... “I’m not at a place where I think he should be coming back with clemency,” Pelosi said. “I think he should come back and face the music for what he did … (but) the music shouldn’t be the death penalty or life in prison.”

... “If he is a patriot — as he supposedly is — he will come home” and use the opportunity to make his case to the public, Pelosi said.

Read more: http://blog.sfgate.com/nov05election/2014/01/06/house-democratic-leader-nancy-pelosi-says-edward-snowden-should-come-back-and-face-the-music-for-leaks/

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Pelosi: Snowden should 'come back and face the music' (Original Post) Newsjock Jan 2014 OP
"Impeachment is off the table." OnyxCollie Jan 2014 #1
Exactly billhicks76 Jan 2014 #27
I'm glad you got that in at #1. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #30
I'll second that. QuestForSense Jan 2014 #33
Bingo... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #35
all criminals should be released and no charges laid on any crimes Whisp Jan 2014 #89
I would prefer Bush got the death penalty. olddad56 Jan 2014 #94
I am usually anti death penalty, but I make exceptions. Whisp Jan 2014 #95
No, but she can kindly shut her trap. Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2014 #134
You're right. It's just crim son Jan 2014 #136
Winning in 2014 is off the table too. Ash_F Jan 2014 #38
The DC DEMS removed their masks some time ago. And, yep, they're just as bad as we suspected. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #43
Touche, OnyxCollie! Carolina Jan 2014 #79
Facing the music is "hard work" especially when they're playing "Ride of the Valkyries." Uncle Joe Jan 2014 #91
Right--Pelosi has no creditbility any more. nt raccoon Jan 2014 #142
A lot of people should have faced the music, but you took that off the table Autumn Jan 2014 #2
Exactly. Indi Guy Jan 2014 #3
And the people that lied christx30 Jan 2014 #4
She won't talk about that warrant46 Jan 2014 #10
Of course we are! christx30 Jan 2014 #15
Of course not... awoke_in_2003 Jan 2014 #36
Pelosi and her DLC pals are triangulating to "the Center," wherever the f/ck that is... blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #44
It's where President Obama is Freddie Stubbs Jan 2014 #75
When are we going to get rid of this trashy DINO? Th1onein Jan 2014 #5
Put her out to pasture with DiFi, too. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #45
Absolutely. Th1onein Jan 2014 #63
After his work is done in Ca. Senator Brown has a nice ring to it. olddad56 Jan 2014 #96
When did defending President Obama's positions make a person a "trashy DINO?" Freddie Stubbs Jan 2014 #76
I have yet to see Obama gush over the awesomeness of the NSA. Ash_F Jan 2014 #88
But it won't be public blackspade Jan 2014 #6
The Police State cometh. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #46
And if Pelosi is a patriot, she'll compose some music for the NSA. n/t winter is coming Jan 2014 #7
he should face the music, just like bush did, right nancy? frylock Jan 2014 #8
Yeah jollyreaper2112 Jan 2014 #9
Pelosi blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #47
my dad jollyreaper2112 Jan 2014 #70
Should have his teeth kicked in??? FrodosPet Jan 2014 #74
here's some history for you, bub jollyreaper2112 Jan 2014 #77
Guilty until proven innocent rpannier Jan 2014 #11
The Police State cometh. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #48
Right... Kelvin Mace Jan 2014 #12
When does the NSA get to face the music? L0oniX Jan 2014 #13
The NSA blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #49
She certainly has a selective idea of who should face what music. BlueToTheBone Jan 2014 #14
I don't see what she gets out of making such a horrible statement! KoKo Jan 2014 #19
She is a democrat BlueToTheBone Jan 2014 #24
Pelosi is DINO, and blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #50
she is a very wealthy democrat. She is also past her expriration date as a congressperson olddad56 Jan 2014 #97
he can be plenty public in Russia cvoogt Jan 2014 #16
He is on their radar for sure, bet they would never give him a position to "reveal" as he Thinkingabout Jan 2014 #26
Yes, start with Star-Spangled Banner then give medal of freedom on point Jan 2014 #17
Is there a Constitutional Scholar in the house??? blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #51
You mean the White House? The scholar would be the one ordering the drone strikes. 24601 Jan 2014 #121
Snowden is a fucking traitor. jakefrep Jan 2014 #122
Who Exactly is Pelosi Playing to with THIS Statement? KoKo Jan 2014 #18
Pelosi was never with "us." blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #52
When she demands that the criminals who slaughtered hundreds of thousands "face the music..." last1standing Jan 2014 #20
Exactly. fuck you, Pelosi kath Jan 2014 #21
Agreed... KansDem Jan 2014 #61
I won't alter my highly favorable opinion of Speaker Pelosi because of her stance on one person. ProgressSaves Jan 2014 #22
Depends on your perspective. davidthegnome Jan 2014 #25
Welcome to my Ignore List, "Progress." blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #53
Fallacy: Her stance is on ALL People Demeter Jan 2014 #58
She's pissed because Snowden revealed what a piss poor job Congress did of rhett o rick Jan 2014 #23
The "System" includes its protectors, like Nancy. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #54
Nancy is protecting the corrupt NSA. It was Congress's job to provide checks rhett o rick Jan 2014 #71
They didn't fail, they were complicit hugo_from_TN Jan 2014 #133
While there may be a some among the wealthy ruling elite that sympathize with the 99% rhett o rick Jan 2014 #135
She's the consumate politician with great instincts bucolic_frolic Jan 2014 #28
Yes, I agree. It's all about how they can sustain their power .. not about the people they serve. YOHABLO Jan 2014 #29
Well bucolic_frolic Jan 2014 #60
how about Snowden gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the members of the Bush Crime Family..... olddad56 Jan 2014 #31
2nd that. Bush crime family and cronies in jail for life. Pelosi better watch out, she is complicit on point Jan 2014 #32
Good luck getting Snowden the Peace Prize! struggle4progress Jan 2014 #123
Music ? As in Motor Head at max volume in a super max prison with the lights on 24/7 Monk06 Jan 2014 #34
let's hope not. truthisfreedom Jan 2014 #40
I hear they've got 30,000 Drones for that. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #55
Off the table Aerows Jan 2014 #37
Hope he has the dirt on what GWB really knew on 9/10/2001. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #56
that would be the best if he could expose the bush crime family for 911. olddad56 Jan 2014 #69
Dear Nancy Phlem Jan 2014 #39
But of course! What about torture, war crimes, coverups? idwiyo Jan 2014 #41
Big words from Ms. "Impeachment Is Off The Table" Pelosi. blkmusclmachine Jan 2014 #42
After you, Nancy Demeter Jan 2014 #57
Nancy Pelosi (D-Fascist) woo me with science Jan 2014 #59
lol. how can I take you seriously on anything. Whisp Jan 2014 #90
And yet here you are again, taking me seriously. woo me with science Jan 2014 #126
Hey, Nancy! What band is appearing at GitMo this weekend? KansDem Jan 2014 #62
he has the opportunity to make his case from russia. madrchsod Jan 2014 #64
War Criminal reddread Jan 2014 #65
leadership deficit RedstDem Jan 2014 #66
We have the best politicians money can buy! nolabels Jan 2014 #67
I think for what they cost, we should be able to buy better ones... olddad56 Jan 2014 #86
I think every member of the appropriate oversight committee.. sendero Jan 2014 #68
First the JP Morgan Rottens gussmith Jan 2014 #72
... Solly Mack Jan 2014 #73
I particularly love the argument that if a wasn't tried Snowden shouldn't be Progressive dog Jan 2014 #78
You do get that Nancy Pelosi ... GeorgeGist Jan 2014 #81
You obviously don't get thay Nancy Pelosi is Progressive dog Jan 2014 #105
NSA placation is a real political winner, am I right? Ash_F Jan 2014 #83
So supporting Snowden and attacking elected Democrats Progressive dog Jan 2014 #101
No, taking ridiculously unpopular positions will. Ash_F Jan 2014 #102
I think you are wrong about that, Progressive dog Jan 2014 #107
The crimes committed against the people of Iraq by the Bush Administration ronnie624 Jan 2014 #84
Grow up, countries fight wars and Progressive dog Jan 2014 #100
"not one has ever tried an elected leader for the brutality during war" Ash_F Jan 2014 #108
It may be funny but it is true and there is Progressive dog Jan 2014 #110
That last post wasn't for you. Ash_F Jan 2014 #112
Aggressive war is a violation of international law. ronnie624 Jan 2014 #116
All wars are aggressive. Name one that wasn't. LOL nt Progressive dog Jan 2014 #124
War of aggression: ronnie624 Jan 2014 #125
Snowden is still an accused criminal and Pelosi is correct Progressive dog Jan 2014 #127
But she and most other US political leaders are still hypocrites, ronnie624 Jan 2014 #128
I'm glad you are so perfect that you know who is or is not a mass murderer Progressive dog Jan 2014 #129
Mass murderers are people who kill en mass, ronnie624 Jan 2014 #130
That's why they've all been indicted for mass murder, Progressive dog Jan 2014 #132
Links to Opinions on Legality of War Against Iraq ronnie624 Jan 2014 #137
Where are the indictments, where are the indictments Progressive dog Jan 2014 #138
... said the monkey who dances for the 1% organ grinders 1000words Jan 2014 #80
How Nancy Pelosi Saved the NSA Surveillance Program jsr Jan 2014 #82
Ignore the Chronicle's bogus framing. The only whistle Snowball blew was his own. ucrdem Jan 2014 #85
Yep, a hit job by hardcore Republicans like Warren and Sanders. Ash_F Jan 2014 #87
Pelosi's been a Democrat longer than both of them put together. ucrdem Jan 2014 #99
Bottom line is that Pelosi is out of line with a majority of Democrats Ash_F Jan 2014 #103
Rand Paul has been riding herd on this thing since the day it broke ucrdem Jan 2014 #109
2010 wasn't pretty. 2012 should have been better. Ash_F Jan 2014 #111
Not to be snarky but you're catching on. ucrdem Jan 2014 #113
That's right. That's why Dems need to toughen up and speak out. Ash_F Jan 2014 #115
Theoretically but if that were possible it wouldn't be much of a hit would it? ucrdem Jan 2014 #117
I am sorry but I can't accept your 'can't change the system' attitude Ash_F Jan 2014 #118
Where did I say that? In fact the system HAS changed, substantially, ucrdem Jan 2014 #119
All I hear is excuses Ash_F Jan 2014 #120
Yup tazkcmo Jan 2014 #92
LOL, does she even realize how phony this sounds? closeupready Jan 2014 #93
She's a simple windsock nilesobek Jan 2014 #98
Maybe if she didn't take impeachment off the table.. TriplD Jan 2014 #104
Bernie Sanders has pretty much said the same thing... DonViejo Jan 2014 #106
this music? DCBob Jan 2014 #114
Pelosi should stop lip-synching to the music. n/t Orsino Jan 2014 #131
She's good at that warrant46 Jan 2014 #139
She needs to go, woo me with science Jan 2014 #140
When will the politicans Wernothelpless Jan 2014 #141
 

DisgustipatedinCA

(12,530 posts)
30. I'm glad you got that in at #1.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:10 AM
Jan 2014

That's right where it needs to be. I hope you dropped the mic and walked off the stage.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
89. all criminals should be released and no charges laid on any crimes
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:05 PM
Jan 2014

since Bush wasn't impeached.

--------> <-----------

Yes, I would love for the Chimperor to be behind bars, but let us not get kindergarten about this.

 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
95. I am usually anti death penalty, but I make exceptions.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:57 PM
Jan 2014

What would make things right in my mind is Bush having to serve time in a prison of the Abu Graib type for the rest of his miserable life.

crim son

(27,464 posts)
136. You're right. It's just
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 08:46 PM
Jan 2014

irritating as hell to have to listen to Pelosi on this particular issue.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
38. Winning in 2014 is off the table too.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 02:32 AM
Jan 2014

Dem leadership is so out of touch with both the majority of the Democratic party and the majority of Americans. It is laughable.

Carolina

(6,960 posts)
79. Touche, OnyxCollie!
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 03:19 PM
Jan 2014

The big criminals are off limits but the whistle blowers... not so fast.

I have had it with rich, sellout DINOS. Nancy needs to STFU

Autumn

(45,120 posts)
2. A lot of people should have faced the music, but you took that off the table
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:37 PM
Jan 2014

So your moral lecture means nothing to me other than hollow words.

Indi Guy

(3,992 posts)
3. Exactly.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:43 PM
Jan 2014

Let's see you hold the NSA's feet to the fire first -- and then deal with the person who had the courage to go public with the misdeeds.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
4. And the people that lied
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 10:46 PM
Jan 2014

to get us into a war with Iraq that cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of lives.

warrant46

(2,205 posts)
10. She won't talk about that
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:19 PM
Jan 2014

In fact they are about to continue the War In the Afghan cesspool well beyond 2014

christx30

(6,241 posts)
15. Of course we are!
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:33 PM
Jan 2014

Can't let those war profiteers go hungry now, can we? What about their children, starving on their private beaches?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
88. I have yet to see Obama gush over the awesomeness of the NSA.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:49 PM
Jan 2014

Seems like he is getting dragged along for the ride rather than being a enthusiastic architect.

blackspade

(10,056 posts)
6. But it won't be public
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:02 PM
Jan 2014

He will be tried in secret and then disappear and therein lies the problem with Pelosi's statement.
Now, if he were to testify before Congress in open, public, sessions, I could see her 'face the music' push making sense.

At this point? There would be no way I would come back if I were him. After what happened to Chelsea Manning, I wouldn't trust the US judicial system/government without something ironclad, public, and in writing.

jollyreaper2112

(1,941 posts)
9. Yeah
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:07 PM
Jan 2014

And I feel anyone who says something so stupid should have his teeth kicked in. As the other poster said, this is the same fucker who took impeachment off the table. She's just as guilty as Bush to my way of thinking.

jollyreaper2112

(1,941 posts)
70. my dad
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:27 AM
Jan 2014

My dad is a total right wing rushbot. And when he was making fun of Pelosi for saying "we have to pass it to see what's in it," I couldn't muster a defense. I didn't even want to. That's the kind of stupid shit we expect from a Palin or a Bush. I'll give him that much, it was a profoundly stupid thing to say.

FrodosPet

(5,169 posts)
74. Should have his teeth kicked in???
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 02:18 PM
Jan 2014


So the people advocating political violence are correct? People who disagree with us should have their teeth kicked in?

Sad.

jollyreaper2112

(1,941 posts)
77. here's some history for you, bub
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 02:29 PM
Jan 2014

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
Address to Latin American diplomats at the White House (13 March 1962) [4]
--JFK

We've tried playing by the rules and it's a sucker's game.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
14. She certainly has a selective idea of who should face what music.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:32 PM
Jan 2014

I will never forgive her. When she was at the California state convention in 2007 she agreed that Bush was a war criminal and then she "took impeachment off the table" and now she wants Snowden to "face the music"? It should be roaring in her ears.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
19. I don't see what she gets out of making such a horrible statement!
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:43 PM
Jan 2014

Surely she has Democratic Funders......or....????

She should never have said such a thing.........if she is a Democrat..that is.

BlueToTheBone

(3,747 posts)
24. She is a democrat
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:16 AM
Jan 2014

and she is very powerful, but sometimes, I don't really understand who her true masters are.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
16. he can be plenty public in Russia
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:39 PM
Jan 2014

Just because he is in Russia doesn't mean he's off the radar entirely. He has done some videos for example. It's like Stalin saying "don't worry, I won't send you to Siberia, honest!" Yeah right.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
26. He is on their radar for sure, bet they would never give him a position to "reveal" as he
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:24 AM
Jan 2014

Had in the US. Oh yea, he is on their radar along with other "friends".

on point

(2,506 posts)
17. Yes, start with Star-Spangled Banner then give medal of freedom
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:39 PM
Jan 2014

Oh yes Obama needs to grant him a full complete pardon and start lacking up NSA officials who violated constitution

24601

(3,962 posts)
121. You mean the White House? The scholar would be the one ordering the drone strikes.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:32 PM
Jan 2014

As Gallagher said, ""Well, what is the limit?"

jakefrep

(3,982 posts)
122. Snowden is a fucking traitor.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 09:56 PM
Jan 2014

Throw his punk coward criminal ass in jail and throw away the key already/

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
18. Who Exactly is Pelosi Playing to with THIS Statement?
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:42 PM
Jan 2014

How could she even think of saying such a thing?

Is she leaving her Dem Party Behind for something ELSE.

last1standing

(11,709 posts)
20. When she demands that the criminals who slaughtered hundreds of thousands "face the music..."
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:47 PM
Jan 2014

Then I'll give these comments a little more respect. Pelosi had the power to see the bush murderers tried and did nothing. She has lost all credibility in this situation.

kath

(10,565 posts)
21. Exactly. fuck you, Pelosi
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:53 PM
Jan 2014

And I haven't seen her pushing for prosecution of all the criminal banksters either.

On edit -- oh yeah, and the NSA too.

 

ProgressSaves

(123 posts)
22. I won't alter my highly favorable opinion of Speaker Pelosi because of her stance on one person.
Mon Jan 6, 2014, 11:55 PM
Jan 2014

His fate isn't all that important to the everyday lives of the American electorate.

davidthegnome

(2,983 posts)
25. Depends on your perspective.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:18 AM
Jan 2014

If Snowden does return to the US to "face the music", do you honestly think he'll have anything resembling a fair trial? Do you think he'll be treated fairly or even humanely when in custody? I don't. I expect that Snowden would be locked up quietly somewhere, in all likelihood tortured - and possibly executed.

What happens to Snowden, I believe, IS important to the American electorate, primarily because we can no longer (if we ever could) reasonably expect such a man to be treated fairly or justly. Personally, I hope that our American authorities never get their hands on him. Someone has to do something about this NSA gone wild - and as congress either can't or won't, it's going to be largely up to individuals of the American electorate to do so.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
58. Fallacy: Her stance is on ALL People
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:11 AM
Jan 2014

We all aren't that important...not our rights, our liberties, our Constitution...to Nancy Pelosi.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
23. She's pissed because Snowden revealed what a piss poor job Congress did of
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:05 AM
Jan 2014

keeping check on the NSA. The system is rotten.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
71. Nancy is protecting the corrupt NSA. It was Congress's job to provide checks
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jan 2014

on them and they failed miserably. Now they want a scapegoat. Nancy is part of the wealthy ruling elite.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
135. While there may be a some among the wealthy ruling elite that sympathize with the 99%
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 05:12 PM
Jan 2014

but they are few and far between. They believe their wealth means they are successful and destine to decide what's best for us.

bucolic_frolic

(43,257 posts)
28. She's the consumate politician with great instincts
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:41 AM
Jan 2014

and she is not about to go out on that limb with Mr. Snowden

Now, it is an open invitation for him to return, and if the public's political
winds blow in his favor, and if the uproar is sufficient to influence Congress,
she's not going to go against that, I suspect.

So this is a lesson on how one survives in the political realm for decades.

Never go with anything controversial, don't go places the polls don't lead you.

 

YOHABLO

(7,358 posts)
29. Yes, I agree. It's all about how they can sustain their power .. not about the people they serve.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:09 AM
Jan 2014

We don't want Fascism Nancy .. you are there to uphold the Constitution .. Hello 4th amendment girl .. what's up with that?


Snowden needs to stay right where he is .. they want to fry his ass too badly .. for him to ever get a fair trail. Look what they've done to Chelsea Manning? I feel so sorry for her ... they came down on her way to hard .. they treated her like a dog.

bucolic_frolic

(43,257 posts)
60. Well
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:56 AM
Jan 2014

It's first and foremost about how they maintain their power, and
secondarily about their principles and the people they serve.

Because, if they fall from power, they can't do either of the other two!

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
31. how about Snowden gets the Nobel Peace Prize and the members of the Bush Crime Family.....
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:16 AM
Jan 2014

"Face the Music".

on point

(2,506 posts)
32. 2nd that. Bush crime family and cronies in jail for life. Pelosi better watch out, she is complicit
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:23 AM
Jan 2014

in Bush crimes for failure to stop see to it he was prosecuted

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
34. Music ? As in Motor Head at max volume in a super max prison with the lights on 24/7
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 01:45 AM
Jan 2014

If he ever sets foot on US soil he'll go down the super max memory hole never to be seen or heard from again.
 

Whisp

(24,096 posts)
90. lol. how can I take you seriously on anything.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:08 PM
Jan 2014

seriously.

you obviously don't even know what a fascist is but it just sounds uncool enough for Pelosi as it does for the President. I guess.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
126. And yet here you are again, taking me seriously.
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:04 AM
Jan 2014

You certainly spend a lot of time claiming giddiness from my posts.

People will say we're in love.

Of course it's important that the word, "fascism" be mocked in *any* context, as though it could not possibly happen here. Just like it's important to mock the implementation, in the United States of America, of a mass surveillance state aimed at citizens; militarization of our police forces; criminalization of investigative journalism; persecution of whistleblowers and journalists; assaults on the Constitution; and subversion of our democratic government for corporate power and profit at the expense of the people....

...All these things must be painted by both corporate Republicans and the corporate-bankrolled Third Way as mere politics as usual.

By the way, I was just teasing above. I understand that if you hadn't come to deride the word, "fascism," another of the full-timers would have stepped in and handled that for you.

Happy Banking. Happy Third Way.

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
64. he has the opportunity to make his case from russia.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:43 AM
Jan 2014

i`m sure the putin would allow him to publicly make his case to the united state and the world.

there`s no reason for him to come home especially when he renounces his us citizenship.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
67. We have the best politicians money can buy!
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:50 AM
Jan 2014

Remember if the sky is falling, it only hurts if you are below it

olddad56

(5,732 posts)
86. I think for what they cost, we should be able to buy better ones...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:09 PM
Jan 2014

maybe we cancel elections in favor of just putting the candidates up for bid on Ebay.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
68. I think every member of the appropriate oversight committee..
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:54 AM
Jan 2014

... (and I'm pretty sure that would include Pelosi) should be impeached for failing in their basic duty to oversee rogue operations.

 

gussmith

(280 posts)
72. First the JP Morgan Rottens
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 12:36 PM
Jan 2014

Why should Snowden come back to face the music when the powers that be exempt the banksters, politicians and the rest of the greedy?

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
78. I particularly love the argument that if a wasn't tried Snowden shouldn't be
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 02:50 PM
Jan 2014

That is an argument to have no laws enforced. It is an argument for anarchy. It is an argument that asks government to stop being government.
You do get that Nancy Pelosi, as a responsible government official is only doing what responsible government officials should do by calling for Snowden to be treated the same as any other thief. He is not a US patriot, he is an accused felon who has fled to escape prosecution.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
105. You obviously don't get thay Nancy Pelosi is
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jan 2014

not a law enforcement officer. You do get that the United States has never prosecuted a President for war crimes.


Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
83. NSA placation is a real political winner, am I right?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:11 PM
Jan 2014

America doesn't need Democrats to destroy themselves with extremely unpopular positions right now. This is a pivotal point in our history and we do not need another 20 year Reagan era.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
101. So supporting Snowden and attacking elected Democrats
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:13 PM
Jan 2014

somehow destroys Democrats in your opinion.
That doesn't make sense on any level.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
107. I think you are wrong about that,
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:27 PM
Jan 2014

it is only a major issue with Libe4rtarians and anarchists, groups that never have and never will vote for Democrats.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
84. The crimes committed against the people of Iraq by the Bush Administration
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:31 PM
Jan 2014

are far more serious than mere theft, as are the offenses against our democracy by the NSA. The double standard in Nancy Pelosi's position is very hypocritical, rendering it bereft of any moral legitimacy.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
100. Grow up, countries fight wars and
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:05 PM
Jan 2014

not one has ever tried an elected leader for the brutality during war. There is no double standard. In a representative democracy if you don't like your leaders, you vote them out, you don't get to arrest and prosecute them because you disagree with what they did or how they did it.
Snowden is an accused criminal. He stole and made his theft public.
You may not like it, but it's one hell of a lot better than any other system of government that humans have invented.




Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
112. That last post wasn't for you.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:37 PM
Jan 2014

I think people are starting to tune you out but that one was worth highlighting

You are welcome.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
116. Aggressive war is a violation of international law.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:05 PM
Jan 2014

Your attempt to excuse it, is rambling and incoherent. The fact that you consider the US political power structure a "representative democracy", in no way, excuses crimes against humanity. Attempting to rationalize them away while condemning a far lesser crime, is the very definition of a double standard.

And the invasion of Iraq was not something that 'just happened'. It was an act of naked aggression against another country, that was clearly predicated on lies and conspiracy by the US government, and its sole purpose was to advance the self-serving interests of the US political power structure, at a tremendous cost to the Iraqi people.

You see the world the way you do, because it suits your emotional interests to do so, not because you have thought about the issues logically.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
125. War of aggression:
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 10:57 AM
Jan 2014
A war of aggression, sometimes also war of conquest, is a military conflict waged without the justification of self-defense, usually for territorial gain and subjugation. The phrase is distinctly modern and diametrically opposed to the prior legal international standard of "might makes right", under the medieval and pre-historic beliefs of right of conquest. Since the Korean War of the early 1950s, waging such a war of aggression is a crime under the customary international law. Possibly the first trial for waging aggressive war is that of Conradin von Hohenstaufen in 1268.[1]

Wars without international legality (e.g. not out of self-defense nor sanctioned by the United Nations Security Council) can be considered wars of aggression; however, this alone usually does not constitute the definition of a war of aggression; certain wars may be unlawful but not aggressive (a war to settle a boundary dispute where the initiator has a reasonable claim, and limited aims, is one example).

The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which followed World War II, called the waging of aggressive war "essentially an evil thing...to initiate a war of aggression...is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."[2] Article 39 of the United Nations Charter provides that the UN Security Council shall determine the existence of any act of aggression and "shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 41 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_aggression

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
128. But she and most other US political leaders are still hypocrites,
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 11:43 AM
Jan 2014

because they want a 'thief' to 'come back and face the music', while allowing mass murderers to escape justice.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
129. I'm glad you are so perfect that you know who is or is not a mass murderer
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:35 PM
Jan 2014

and that these politicians allowed them to go free. As I pointed out previously, Congress is not a law enforcement agency and they have exactly the same right to express an opinion as other Americans.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
130. Mass murderers are people who kill en mass,
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 12:49 PM
Jan 2014

like George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld. They were allowed to go free by Nancy Pelosi and other political leaders, when they decided that the administration's crimes did not merit investigation.

One does not have to be perfect to see such things correctly. Simple logic is an excellent guide in such matters.

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
132. That's why they've all been indicted for mass murder,
Wed Jan 8, 2014, 04:21 PM
Jan 2014

right? Or are you saying your "simple logic" was missed by the entire USA's justice establishment and almost all of the world's?

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
137. Links to Opinions on Legality of War Against Iraq
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 01:57 AM
Jan 2014
http://www.robincmiller.com/ir-legal.htm

You realize you're defending the Bush Administration's illegal invasion of Iraq, on a progressive board, don't you?

Progressive dog

(6,917 posts)
138. Where are the indictments, where are the indictments
Thu Jan 9, 2014, 09:24 AM
Jan 2014

No I am not defending the invasion of Iraq.
I realize the reality of charging an elected President with mass murder because the invasion of Iraq was arguably illegal. I realize the idiocy of thinking that because some crimes go unpunished, every criminal should be released.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
85. Ignore the Chronicle's bogus framing. The only whistle Snowball blew was his own.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 04:33 PM
Jan 2014

Talented guy. Anyway NSA-gate is a purely partisan food fight, and has been from it's earliest inception. Personally I don't believe Greenwald's "I got an email from Snowball" story because he originally claimed last summer that his "editors" had summoned him to NY to give him and Poitras their instructions, and he'd had no idea who Snowden was and had nothing to do with persuading him.

Once the tale took off with a little help from our media friends the story changed into the cornball epiphany GG was shopping around last month. Anyway Pelosi is no fool and the fact that she's even discussing "clemency" is a credit to her self-control. To put it simply NSA-gate is a hit job just like Fast and Furious-gate, AP-gate, IRS-gate, ACA-gate and every other Benghazi to come down the pike.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
87. Yep, a hit job by hardcore Republicans like Warren and Sanders.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jan 2014

Out to get honorable Democrats like Clapper and Alexander!

ps - and the 10/11 Reagan/Bush FISA court judges!

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
99. Pelosi's been a Democrat longer than both of them put together.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:03 PM
Jan 2014

I have a high regard for both but Warren was a Republican for most of her life and sometimes I think she forgets which side she's on, or maybe her staff does. And Sanders is in a league of his own.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
103. Bottom line is that Pelosi is out of line with a majority of Democrats
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jan 2014

and a majority of Americans on this issue. But not a majority of Republicans!

Doesn't sound like a winner to me.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
109. Rand Paul has been riding herd on this thing since the day it broke
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:28 PM
Jan 2014

as have his fourth-force devotees. I think your perception of how this is playing among the electorate might be wrong. Way wrong.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
111. 2010 wasn't pretty. 2012 should have been better.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:35 PM
Jan 2014

It would have been worse if the Republicans hadn't turned the crazy up to 11.

A Democratic submission to the right is not the way go. Outliers like Rand are just barking because there is a Dem president right now. Right wingers love the NSA and the NSA with its enabling court is stacked with right wingers.

I think your opinion on how undamaging this is going to be in 2014 is wrong. Just look at this forum. Everywhere I go in public people are making jokes about NSA spying. Not the good kind. The bitter kind.

Do you think this improves Democratic chances in 2014? The country wants to go left, not right.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
113. Not to be snarky but you're catching on.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:52 PM
Jan 2014

I didn't say it wouldn't hurt us in 2014. It's obviously meant to, just like Benghazi and the others were thoughtfully designed to inflict the most damage. That's the Bushler playbook and it was also Nixon's: make Dems defend an unpopular war, program, or policy and presto, another GOP liability becomes ours.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
115. That's right. That's why Dems need to toughen up and speak out.
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jan 2014

And make Republicans own it. Point out every day that the FISA court is Bush/Reagan judges. That the Patriot act was under Bush. Demand that it be repealed and the NSA defunded.

This would be popular with both Democratic voters and Americans in general. What we don't need is for Democrats to feel betrayed again as in Vietnam and for pubs to just get swept in.

So Pelosi should switch gears 180 degrees.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
117. Theoretically but if that were possible it wouldn't be much of a hit would it?
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:08 PM
Jan 2014

The problem is that we're stuck with the laws we've got and also with a bizarre Congress that makes changing them impossible. To the extent that Obama was able to act with the Dem majorities he had, he did. That where all those compliance reports "leaked" by WaPol and the Guardian came from. I have some in my journal if you'd like to review them.

The other part if it is that the NSA is largely engaged in cyberwarfare with China and Russia and as I understand it that's a viable mission but not one that responsible politicians like Obama and Pelosi are going to shoot their mouths off about. So we're stuck in yet another unwinnable position, like trying to get gun control legislation past this idiot Congress.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
118. I am sorry but I can't accept your 'can't change the system' attitude
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:11 PM
Jan 2014

It has been a losing strategy for Democrats in the past and will continue to be a loser in the future.

ucrdem

(15,512 posts)
119. Where did I say that? In fact the system HAS changed, substantially,
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 08:24 PM
Jan 2014

and would have changed a lot more were it not for these constant scandal bots which some of us fall hard for every single time.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
92. Yup
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 06:48 PM
Jan 2014

Nothing to see here. Trust the NSA and Pelosi because they really, really, REALLY care about us proles.

TriplD

(176 posts)
104. Maybe if she didn't take impeachment off the table..
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:20 PM
Jan 2014

...there would have been no need for a Snowden?

A proper investigation into the crimes of BushCo would have exposed this crap.

Shame on you Nancy!

DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
106. Bernie Sanders has pretty much said the same thing...
Tue Jan 7, 2014, 07:21 PM
Jan 2014
SANDERS: Well, I think what you have to look at is -- I think there is no question that he committed a crime, obviously. He violated his oath and he leaked information.

On the other hand, what you have to weigh that against is the fact that he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing.

So, I think you got to weigh the two. My own belief is that I think, I would hope that the United States government could kind of negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency. I think it wouldn't be a good idea or fair to him to have to spend his entire remaining life abroad, not being able to come back to his country.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No.

BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
140. She needs to go,
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 05:51 PM
Jan 2014

as does every other Third Way predator in Congress.

We have taught these thieves and liars that they can promise to represent us and then betray us repeatedly without consequence. It's past time for a sweeping message otherwise.





Wernothelpless

(410 posts)
141. When will the politicans
Fri Jan 10, 2014, 06:03 PM
Jan 2014

keep their mouths out of The NSA and The Bankers crotches ... you're an embarrassment, Nancy ...

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