Ukraine prepares armed response as city seized by pro-Russia forces

[cosmicone]

Source: Reuters

Armed separatists took control of a city in eastern Ukraine on Saturday and Kiev prepared troops to tackle what it called an "act of aggression by Russia", pushing the conflict between the neighbors into a dangerous new phase.

Pro-Russian activists carrying automatic weapons seized government buildings in Slaviansk, a town about 150 km (90 miles) from the Russian border, and set up barricades on the outskirts of the city.

In Kramatorsk, some 80 km (50 miles) to the north, gunmen seized the police station after a shootout with police, a Reuters witness said.

Government buildings in several other towns in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions were attacked in what Washington said were moves reminiscent of the events that preceded Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean peninsula.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/13/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA3A1B520140413

---

Ukraine would be stupid to attack .... the chess board has been set up for it to lose Eastern parts with or without military intervention. This is what Putin set up in Georgia and as soon as Sakashvili attacked, Russians defended with brutal force and annihilated Georgian army resulting in takeover of two provinces.

The CIA and the West would have succeeded in annexing the Western parts full of neonazis and fascists with zero economic potential. Bravo!

[pscot]

1. Back when Yugoslavia started coming apart

I remember thinking, of the Yugoslavs, "They won't go there. No one is that crazy". But they did. The 1st gulf war surprised me too. Nothing surprises me any more. Killing is in our blood. Thinking is ancillary. It's just a bonus feature.

[Duckhunter935]

2. Have to do something

If they use force, Russia might invade. If they al;allow this to go on Russia might invade. They are screwed either way.

[amandabeech]

3. These actions may very well lead to some sort of war, be it civil, guerrilla or an all-out

battle between Ukraine and Russia.

Anyone who anticipates such a war with any degree of glee is certainly in need of a heart and head transplant.

[Crowman1979]

4. I'm just hoping the Russian people will come to their senses and start a coup in Moscow.

[mazzarro]

5. Why would they do that when there was none when Iraq was invaded? -- n/t

[7962]

6. We should have had a coup when Iraq was invaded?

[mazzarro]

10. Pose that question to the poster to whom I responded to -- n/t

[7962]

14. I, like the President, see no comparison to the two. Since you brought it up, I asked you.

Regardless of how stupid invading Iraq was, it was never going to be annexed or occupied forever. Russia has done both with Crimea, and they arent finished yet. And dont think it stops with Ukraine either.

[mazzarro]

15. Whether you choose to be blind to the comparison or not, that is your choice

However, I say it is hypocrisy if you think that when a norm is broken you can keep others from doing the similar thing by ascribing your action some kind of special status. Unfortunately when a norm is broken, it is more likely that the next act that emulates it will push it further than the last.

[fujiyama]

33. Ummm....we killed many more people in Iraq

than the Russians have in Ukraine and their history is much more muddled and different. While I understand the President's political need on a world's stage to try to distance the Iraq invasion with that of Ukraine's, let's not fool ourselves that what we did was any less morally reprehensible than what the Russians are doing.

Bush royally fucked any moral authority (whatever little we had in the first place) by invading Iraq.

[7962]

36. I think we had a good bit of it before, but as you put it, Bush royally fucked it.

Most of the world fully understood Afghanistan and we had the support even from some not-so-friendly nations. Iraq wasted and ruined all of that.
I love seeing more and more of Cheney's associates distance themselves from him as they realize what a mess and mistake it was.

[karynnj]

25. You forget that a year and a half later, about half the country supported Bush

When the Iraq invasion started, bush had the approval of over 60% of the country -- that was true throughout 2003. We did not need a coup -- we had an election coming up. Remember a Democrat in early 2003 did call for Regime change at home - quickly explaining he meant through the scheduled election.

However even 7 months later, too many people were still unready to "abandon" the "leader" they rallied around after 911.

[ballyhoo]

28. Indeed. Good point.

[uhnope]

8. +1. If only Russians could take back their country, put Putin in prison

[JVS]

13. That is not going to happen. The collapse of the USSR was very bad for their standard of living.

The average Russian isn't going to stand by and let everything be thrown into chaos again.

[former9thward]

18. Their standard of living was why the USSR collapsed.

Putin is popular and there is little opposition to his Eastern European actions.

[JVS]

24. Their standard of living didn't cause their collapse.

Their collapse was triggered by a coup, which in turn was motivated by dissatisfaction with Gorbachev's reforms and their deleterious effect on economic and political stability.

If anything Russians back then thought their standard of living would improve by following the West. That proved incorrect, and it will be very unlikely that they are willing to risk tossing everything back into disorder now that they've finally reached a semblance of stability.

[ballyhoo]

29. Yes. That is very true. But, to many,

there must be a score to settle--even if that score means nothing to the real participants. It is the bystanders that must be pacified.

[happyslug]

46. You do NOT do a coup against a "Hero"...

That is a paraphrase of a German Conspirator in killing Hitler, after Hitler took Poland and later France. The same with Putin, even if someone wanted to overthrow him that is impossible right now for he has won the Crimea.

The largest opposition party to Putin, the Communists, are supporting Putin in this fight. Now, it the West we get a lot of reports of the non-communist opposition to Putin, but Putin leaves them alone for they are unimportant. They do not have the unity, organisation or leadership to take over his government (on the other hand the Communist party has all three).

Thus if you are hoping for a Coup against Putin, you better watch what you want. In the case of Serbia after the last War with Serbia, Slobodan Milošević was replaced not by someone to his left, but by someone who said he had NOT done enough to keep Kosovo in Serbia and to keep Yugoslavia together. In simple terms, Slobodan Milošević had NOT been aggressive enough with Kosovo or the other former parts of Yugoslavia.

The same thing with Putin, the Communists see their fellow Communists being attacked in the Ukraine, even through the Communists are in control of neither country. Thus the Communists are even more likely to invade the Ukraine then is Putin.

[Crowman1979]

47. He's only a hero to anyone making a lot of money (aka 1%).

Along with his idiotic teabagger-like following. Let's not forget the huge wage-gap in Russia as well.

[happyslug]

48. The Communists Party of Russia voted with him, that shows you how popular his actions are in Russia

When the Russian Duma was given the option of voting, almost everyone voted to support Putin. That is the level of support he had right now in Russia. Yes a few thousand showed up to protest his actions, but to get a few thousands in the most populated City in Europe (and that is Moscow) is not that hard a a protest to produce.

Sorry, right now no one will even try to overthrow Putin, he could call elections and win. Thus no coup.

[red dog 1]

7. K&R...Thanks for posting

Obama is sending Biden to Kiev
(Most likely to show support for Kerry).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014778926

[uhnope]

9. my god. Can Putin be stopped before he starts all out war?

[happyslug]

49. Here is a Republican who served under Reagan who maintain Putin is the one trying to avoid a war:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/14/washington-is-humanitys-worst-enemy/

[uhnope]

50. yeah, I noticed 2 weeks ago Counterpunch is embarrassingly pro-Kremlin

this article fits right in

[LarryNM]

11. I guess the armed "Activists" in Eastern Ukraine

are not "democratic freedom fighters" like those in Kiev a month or so ago.

[joshcryer]

12. Yes, fascist Putin is following Dugin's roadmap to the tee.

The question is whether or not the facists "defense forces" in fact enjoy popular support.

It is unlikely.

[cosmicone]

19. Neonazi fascists vs Russians

It will be interesting to see who chickens out fast.

Neonazi Western Ukraine cannot afford a protracted war under the current economic situation.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Sovereignty, schmoverignty.

"Ukraine would be stupid to attack .... the chess board has been set up for it to lose Eastern parts with or without military intervention. This is what Putin set up in Georgia and as soon as Sakashvili attacked, Russians defended with brutal force and annihilated Georgian army resulting in takeover of two provinces. "


Putin: All your Ukraine belongs to us.

[NutmegYankee]

17. Ukraine has every right to attack.

Every Country has the right to put down insurrections within their territory. If they had acted faster and engaged the armed men in Crimea the moment they showed up, they might still control it. As long as these men wear uniforms without a flag on them, they are not soldiers under the Geneva Convention. The Ukraine is justified in calling them terrorists and eliminating them if captured.

As for Russia, I think Putin intends to take the East anyhow. At this point, the Ukraine should just go all in and force Russia to sweep the entire country. I think the refusal to pay for the natural gas is part of that plan. All the lines run through the west of the country. If Russia wants to export, it has to control the west too.

[cosmicone]

20. Ukraine knows it cannot win

No one is going to come to their aid.

Their best bet is to restore Yanukovytch, go back to the three party deal with Russia and EU, hold new elections and kick the CIA out. Ukraine will be dismembered and weakened if it joined NATO.

Heck, we threw a hissy fit just because Cuba hosted some missiles and Cuba doesn't even have contiguous borders with the US.

Putin has a duty to protect Russia from American incursion -- he is doing it splendidly.

What would we do if the Russians installed an illegitimate government in Mexico and placed bases there?

[EX500rider]

21. "Putin has a duty to protect Russia from American incursion -- he is doing it splendidly"

HAHAHAHAHA.... OMG.....

Yes valiant peace loving Putie-poo is "protecting Russia" from US incursion....by secretly invading and annexing parts of other countries.
All those US troops taking over government buildings in eastern Ukraine....wait..

[amandabeech]

22. Why does Russia not have big bases in the Caribbean?

Because it is a US lake, and their valuable capital assets would be attacked and demolished when they are most needed.

Why is the US not interested in bases on the Black Sea?

It is a Turkish and Russian lake with one tiny outlet.

The US Navy has done some dumb things, but they're not going to base valuable capital assets where they would be attacked and demolished when they are most needed.

If you have creditable non-Russian sources saying that the US wanted the antiquated Crimean bases, then post them.

Anything else is Russian propaganda designed to elicit hysteria from the average Russian citizen.

[NutmegYankee]

23. Sounds like you miss the cold war.

As for winning, why live in slavery to Russia?

[7962]

32. And you actually think Putin will stop with Ukraine? And this is about the US? Thats funny. nt

[Adrahil]

43. LOL!!! Restore Yanukovych!!! LOL!!!!

I can't believe I just read that!

The dude SACKED the country, sold it to Putin, and you want them to restore him to power! That's hilarious!

[JVS]

26. The Ukrainian "government" disagrees with you. They think Yanukovich is a war criminal for...

trying to put down an insurrection.

[NutmegYankee]

27. Unarmed peaceful protest is NOT an insurrection.

The men who used armed force to take over several buildings on the other hand...

He was declared a war criminal for because PROTESTORS died. Imagine if Bush had ordered police to shoot us while we protested back in 2003.

[dipsydoodle]

30. Do you refer to Kiev ?

Protesters Still Hang Out Around Kiev 'Maidan,' Hanging On to Weapons Too.

KIEV, Ukraine— Anton Larionov spent four months protesting on Kiev's main square as part of the uprising that toppled Ukraine's former president. More than a month later he's still squatting nearby with an arsenal of weapons, ready to spring into action, he says, if conditions in the country don't improve.

The 25-year-old keeps wooden clubs and a metal police baton near his bed in a convention center that protesters occupied in January. He claims to have sniper rifles and grenades, too, though he won't say where they are.

Mr. Larionov is part of the so-called "samooborona," the self-described self-defense militias that clashed with police during the uprising.

Many of the militia members have disbanded and gone home. But enough remain on or near the main Independence Square, or Maidan, to worry Ukrainian legislators. Last week they passed a resolution ordering the disarmament of "illegal armed groups."

Authorities need to act so that "there are no organized criminal groups, so there are no guns among the civilian population," said Vitaly Yarema, first deputy prime minister in the government that came to power after President Viktor Yanukovych's ouster.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304640104579487480605158494?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702304640104579487480605158494.html

[NutmegYankee]

31. Yes I do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_November_2013_attack_on_protesters#30_November_attack_on_protesters

Follow the history. It started peaceful and became violent over time. What's going on in the East has never been peaceful.

[JVS]

34. And people throwing firebombs are NOT unarmed peaceful protesters.

[NutmegYankee]

35. Ah, so when the anarchists show up at a peaceful rally the police can just shoot anybody?

[JVS]

37. Are you saying that the violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government was a false flag?

If so, setting up a provisional government seems to be taking the ruse rather far, wouldn't you say?

[NutmegYankee]

38. Now there is no way a reasonable person would have read it like that.

[JVS]

39. You are the one who deflected from the point of Yanukovich putting down an insurrection by...

positing a hypothetical. Where were you going with that and why?

[NutmegYankee]

40. LOL

What insurrection? What RT headline are you going to post next?

[JVS]

41. Where have I ever posted a RT article?

[Adrahil]

44. The "overthrow" wasn't actually violent.

The actual collapse of the Yanukovych government happened after he fled the country when members of his own ruling coalition were helping draw up a bill to impeach him. He saw the hand-writing on the wall and skedaddled.

[JVS]

51. Bullshit. One does not capture 67 policemen through non-violence

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014733285

I don't know why you try to claim a violent overthrow was non-violent when the record is all here.

[pfrish]

42. This is what Putin set up in Georgia???

Please, look at the facts, first recall Georgia:

FIRST:
In 2006 Sakashvili ordered artillery attack on peaceful city of Tskhinvali:

Refresh your memory here:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/mccains-georgia-obsession/
McCain's Georgia Obsession

... The same adviser who has been on the Georgian payroll, Scheunemann, is also the adviser who coined the phrase ”rogue state rollback” that McCain was peddling in his first bid for the White House ...

http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/19/stories/2008081955691300.htm:

"...In a counter-offensive on August 9-10, the Russian military routed the U.S.-trained Georgian Army and destroyed its military infrastructure..."

Then withdraw from Georgia (using the Roki Tunnel, which Sakashvili 'forgot' to close or blow up . The just confiscated US supplied weapons ...


It did not work as October surprise' http://cognitivedissonanceblog.com/2008/11/10/the-october-surprise-that-failed/> failed OC </a>
BUT - when you first do not succeed, try again

SECOND act:
Look at Crimea: International status of Crimea was undefined, since dissolution of Soviet Union was not done by a vote of Duma (SU parliament)
but by unilateral declaration of independence.
There is nothing wrong with revolutionary declaration of independence. Our own great country started that way.
However, we did not created later problems by claiming Quebec as part of the newly formed US.

The only 'international conference' - and treaty - which is relevant is the one negotiated by EU and Janukovitch in Friday 21 February http://goo.gl/5bFhrY


photo: http://goo.gl/8P8HtB
Vitali Klitschko, leader of Ukraine's Udar opposition party, shakes hands with President Viktor Yanukovych after the signing of the agreement in Kiev, Ukraine. Photograph: Thomas Trutschel/Photothek via Getty Images

This treaty was broken soon after an intercepted phone call, in which someone with voice which 'looked like' that of Victoria Nuland was heard,
putting together new Ukraine government (Before election date agreed on in the treaty) and advising US ambassador to 'fak EU'.

Gorbachev, hardly a Russian empire builder, supports Putin on this. Didn't you read it in mainstream press?

http://rt.com/news/mistake-fixed-crimea-gorbachev-422/

http://news.yahoo.com/gorbachev-crimean-referendum-happy-event-093713215.html

And here is McCain (the friend of Georgian and Ukraine.an people) again:
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

photo 1: http://goo.gl/VRdhh0 McCain and leader of Svoboda party
photo 2: and leader himself (Putin tricked him to make a Sieg Hail gesture


So, what is it: Is McCain going to run for president again??
To save our image, and to show that we are STRONG


US really should stay away from this. Some do not understand it,
others (McCain &comp) want to find something for 2016, anything which
would allow them to say 'US look week' under Democrats.

Look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UkraineNativeLanguagesCensus2001detailed-en.png

To stick their finger (like Nuland) into issue which is not their,
which is happening on the other end of the world,
a family quarrel of former (cold war) enemy, that does not make
US look strong. It makes us look stupid, nasty and
intruding, meddlesome, meddling, ...

Unfortunately, Obama let himself to be pushed into the defense. Attempting to out-bully the bully
is not a winning strategy.

May be : Warren for president?

[gopiscrap]

45. Welcome to DU

[dipsydoodle]

52. Georgia isn't a good example of anything.

From 1st March this year :

With Russian troops poised to sever Crimea from Ukraine, tough-talking conservatives are claiming they were right about the threat from Vladimir Putin all along. The Wall Street Journal interviewed former Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, who offered the West his lessons learned from losing the 2008 clash with the Russians. Meanwhile to the delight of the right-wing blogosphere, Sarah Palin boasted "I told ya so" about her October 2008 prediction that Ukraine would be next.

Of course, there's only one small problem with the crowing from conservatives now enjoying some schadenfreude at President Obama's expense. As we now know, Saakashvili himself bears much of the responsibility for starting the war with Russia.

>

Sadly for Palin, In the fall of 2009, a report commissioned by the Council of the European Union instead found that Georgia "started unjustified war." While the EU analysis placed blame on both Tbilisi and Moscow for what transpired, it rejected the Georgian government's explanation that the attack was defensive. As the BBC reported (below):

>

As Wikileaks revealed in December 2010, the U.S. position was made worse by the fact that the Bush administration--and its allies like John McCain--gullibly believed everything Saakashvili told them. The leaked cables from Tblisi, the New York Times explained, "display some of the perils of a close relationship":

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/01/1281384/-Sarah-Palin-Wall-Street-Journal-rewrite-history-of-Russia-Georgia-war#

In the same way in which the US believed everything Saakashvili told them , without seeking alternative sources , the same is now happening with respect to Kiev - without alternative sources. Jen Psaki confirmed that in answer to a question from a reporter during a news conference.