Supreme Court Allows Prayers at Town Meetings

[SecularMotion]

Source: NY Times

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Monday ruled that a town in upstate New York may begin its public meetings with a prayer from a “chaplain of the month.”

Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, writing for the majority in the 5-to-4 decision, said “ceremonial prayer is but a recognition that, since this nation was founded and until the present day, many Americans deem that their own existence must be understood by precepts far beyond that authority of government to alter or define.”

In dissent, Justice Elena Kagan said the town’s practices could not be reconciled “with the First Amendment’s promise that every citizen, irrespective of her religion, owns an equal share of her government.”

Town officials said that members of all faiths, and atheists, were welcome to give the opening prayer. In practice, the federal appeals court in New York said, almost all of the chaplains were Christian.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/nyregion/supreme-court-allows-prayers-at-town-meetings.html?hp&_r=0

[IronGate]

1. The Obama Admin. also supports this.

[msanthrope]

4. Care to cite that? nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. U.S. backs government prayer:

The Obama administration, entering a major new test case on government-religion ties, has urged the Supreme Court to allow prayers at the beginning of government meetings, even if most if not all of the recitals are from one religion, such as Christianity. But, in a a newly filed brief, it has also asked the Court not to allow citizens to join in such sessions with their own private prayers.

The Court in May agreed to decide, at its next Term, the case of Town of Greece v. Galloway (docket 12-696), involving the prayer practices at meetings of a town council in the upstate New York community of just under 100,000 people. The federal government is not directly involved in the case, but chose to enter it to offer its views, as it has in a number of other cases involving prayers in government settings.

The new brief at one level is a defense of the long-standing practice in Congress of opening daily sessions with prayers, but on a broader level it provides a full defense of religious-oriented prayers at government meetings — provided they do not seek to recruit believers or criticize a given faith. But it contended that it does not matter, constitutionally, that those attending hear only, or mostly, the expressions of religious belief of one sect or denomination.

“Neither federal courts nor legislative bodies,” the brief argued, “are well suited to police the content of such prayers, and this Court has consistently disapproved of government interference in dictating the substance of prayers.” Thus, it argued that the Second Circuit Court was wrong in delving into the specifics of pre-meeting prayers at the Greece Town Council and in concluding that the identity of the prayer-givers and the religious references they made amounted to an endorsement of the Christian faith and thus crossed the line constitutionally.

more: http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/08/u-s-backs-government-prayer/

[Shoulders of Giants]

9. If that's true, then the Obama administration is wrong.

I support principals, not politicians.


I don't know if what you are saying is true or not. However, both Obama appointees voted against this decision.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

30. It is true.

I don't know where the doubt comes from, someone has already posted proof.



Obama Administration, GOP Agree On Opening Prayers Case

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/08/09/210498961/obama-administration-gop-agree-on-opening-prayers-case

The friend-of-the-court brief filed by Donald Verrilli is worth a read (we've embedded it below.) In it, the Obama administration says the practice of praying before a meeting goes back to "the first session of the Continental Congress in 1774." What's more, one of the first order of business for the U.S. House and Senate is to select a chaplain.
The Supreme Court, the government argues, has also decided that prayer before a government meeting doesn't violate the First Amendment's Establishment Clause so long as it doesn't "endorse" religion.

[Shoulders of Giants]

31. Then Obama is wrong then.

[totodeinhere]

33. I think the point is that before we come down too hard on the SCOTUS over this decision

in fairness we need to recognize that the Obama Administration is also on board with this. So it's not just the right wingers.

[Shoulders of Giants]

36. No we didn't.

The Supreme Court is Wrong, and Obama is wrong. its thats simple.

[24601]

63. The Constitution was never amended to outlaw such things. And it was clearly believed permissible

when the Constitution was adopted. The first amendment was meant to prohibit establishing a state faith, like the Church of England from which the US had just separated.

If we were going to empower a small group of people to chart social change, I can't think of a less qualified, less diverse group than nine lawyers from only elite schools? SCOTUS needs to stick to what's constitutional or not and avoid the role of guiding society through change.

This means that the court doesn't do some of the tings I want - but also inhibits it from not doing things I don't want. Better when wants are addressed by elected branches of government.

[Shoulders of Giants]

66. Owning slaves and beating your wife was legal then as well.

The death penalty was the punishment for homosexuality in several locations back then as well. I'd rather not live according to the "founding fathers". Despite this, I still believe the 5 conservative justices decided wrong. The 1st amendment prohibits the "establishment of religion" The 14th amendment makes the Bill of Rights applicable to the states.

In my opinion, starting an official meeting with a prayer, even if our country has done this since the beginning, is the "establishment of religion," especially if its a denominational prayer, and is therefore unconstitutional. Just because something has been done since the founding of the country does not mean its constitutional. Sodomy laws are unconstitutional, but were around until about a decade ago for example.

[RKP5637]

76. Agree! The passage of time does not make all things right! We must maintain the

separation of government and religion at all times all levels. Religion "is" another form of politics and government. For some, the bible is their constitution, bill of rights and book of laws.

[24601]

78. No doubt about it - slavery was constitutional. And it took the bloodiest war in our history and

amending the constitution to ban it.

The constitution makes no mention of wife-beating and per the 10th Amendment, when the states outlawed forms of assault, it was clearly in their jurisdiction.

But it defies language as well as logic to hold that acknowledgement, even recognition equals establishment.

It's "settled law" and we move on.

"At the beginning of each session, the marshal of the Court (Court Crier) announces: "The Honorable, the Chief Justice and the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States. Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! All persons having business before the Honorable, the Supreme Court of the United States, are admonished to draw near and give their attention, for the Court is now sitting. God save the United States and this Honorable Court."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oyez

[riderinthestorm]

58. Its only a little prayer!!111!!! (cough Rick Warren cough) nt

[randys1]

2. Lets imprison the SC Justices who are criminals, i.e. Alito, Roberts and Thomas

and hear the case again, see if the new makeup of the SC will make the obvious right decision

[Nye Bevan]

13. Except that Roberts saved Obamacare.

So we should let him out of prison to vote on any new Obamacare case that comes up. Imprisoning judges for making the "wrong" decision on cases is an admirably progressive concept.

[randys1]

50. No I want to imprison him for lying under oath

[Nye Bevan]

60. Do you mean during their confirmation hearings?

If so, is your theory that justices' views should not be allowed to evolve over time? That they are forever locked into whatever they said during their confirmation hearings, upon pain of impeachment?

[randys1]

74. LOL oh man you should do stand up

Roberts was groomed from law school on, he had one job and one job only, lie thru his teeth in his confirmation hearings about respecting precedent then overturn EVERYTHING

[Gothmog]

54. You left off Scalia

Scalia may well be senile but he also had dirty hands

[heaven05]

3. what bullshit kennedy is spewing

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 11:52 AM - Edit history (1)

this country was founded by hateful hypocrites who practiced genocide on the 'first' americans and held people in bondage against their will using their interpretation of the christian god as their guide. what utter nonsense and lies by a 'supreme'. Disgusting!!!!! Some people out here know the truth. Thank goodness.

[hedgehog]

5. I wouldn't say "using the christian god as their guide"

more like, "using their interpretation of the christian guide as their excuse"

[heaven05]

10. yes, agreed, I stand corrected

thank you yet I presume you meant "using their interpretation of the christian god as their excuse"?

[hedgehog]

39. ! Yes, one should never post while talking to someone else at the time!

[heaven05]

77. yeah true, I'm guilty sometimes

[LittleGirl]

6. WTH?

Come on. This is b.s.

[yallerdawg]

7. Here in the South...

anytime 2 or more gather, it's prayer time.

You can't start council meetings or school boards without a prayer. You can't eat without a prayer. You can't play sports without a prayer (and that includes teams that haven't got a prayer!).

The most intrusive censorship is at the dinner table, where it is forbidden to talk about religion and politics. This gives these Republican evangelicals a free pass to act and vote the way they do, without any criticism from the more enlightened.

So it goes on generationally.

[CANDO]

14. When blessings are offered at the dinner table...

I remain respectfully quiet but do not fold my hands, close my eyes, or bow my head. In the town of Greece, NY some people need to attend these meetings and demand a prayer of Islam or Wiccan or whatever just to try and strike some balance. And if the Xstians object, call them on their bullshit and possibly challenge them in a lawsuit.

[indivisibleman]

20. Exactly!

This should be done ASAP.

[rurallib]

29. they really need about three atheists in a row

appealing to use their reason and intellect and quit thinking some magic man is going to save them.

[hedgehog]

40. Works for me!

[Nye Bevan]

42. That's a good way to handle it,

as opposed to yelling and screaming at the people praying to shut up.

[AAO]

61. I also wait patiently until then end, when they say "amen".

Right then I fake cough "fuck you" under my breath.

[bigwillq]

67. This is what I do.

If others want to pray or sing or dance, fine by me. I can choose not to participate.
Quite frankly, I really don't have an issue with people praying, even in public, even though I don't believe in any kind of organized religion. I respect others beliefs. I do wish, though, that some would respect mine.

[HockeyMom]

19. I sit and stare straight ahead

Whether 50 years ago in Catholic school, town/school board meetings, or sitting down to dinner with my daughter's very religious MIL. When we must go to family weddings or funerals, my husband and I sit in the back and don't participate in any of the rituals, including Communion. We just don't believe so why should we pretend we do? Being respectful doesn't mean joining in.

Bottom line is that you cannot force prayers on anyone. It would be worthless praying for what?

[dbackjon]

11. But both parties are the same

Another example of why anyone that doesn't think having a Democratic Senate and Pres. isn"t important has no business being on this website

[Gothmog]

55. We are one vote away on the SCOTUS from losing Roe v Wade

Due to Nader's stupidity and arrogance, we have Citizens United and the gutting of the Voting Rights Act

[Fumesucker]

68. As noted upthread, the Obama administration supports this particular decision

On this issue there's really not that much difference between the parties.

[alp227]

12. How to turn conservatives against this decision:

Dearborn, Michigan begins city council meetings with "ALLAHU AKBAR"

[yallerdawg]

15. And, sadly, all the vets dive under their chairs.

No religion is best.

[weissmam]

16. then let next chaplin be Islamic and then a Budhist monk

[SoapBox]

22. +1000000

Share and share alike.

[totodeinhere]

49. The House of Representatives and the Senate have both used Muslims as guest

chaplains before.

[Cryptoad]

17. Funny

Jesus said you should not pray in public,,,,,,,,,

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. Yep Jesus said better to pray in your closet than in public!

[Agony]

53. Yep, bunch of freaking hypocrites, literally...

idiots can't read and follow their own tome-o-bullshit or at least don't take their own crap seriously.

[mpcamb]

18. People who want it have freedom of religion. The rest of us just want

freedom from it-

I don't want anyone shoving their version of it at me.

And I double down on that for public venues.

[mac56]

21. "Atheists were welcome to give the opening prayer."

And vegetarians are welcome to plan the annual pork roast.

[indivisibleman]

24. In the spirit of this ruling

An atheist should be allowed to step forward and give an atheistic statement such as, "We are all gathered here to do the business of government. Let us now begin."

[AAO]

62. That one is priceless.

[onenote]

65. An Arizona state legislator who is an atheist opened a session as follows:

“Most prayers in this room begin with a request to bow your heads. I would like to ask that you not bow your heads. I would like to ask that you take a moment to look around the room at all of the men and women here, in this moment, sharing together this extraordinary experience of being alive and of dedicating ourselves to working toward improving the lives of the people in our state.

This is a room in which there are many challenging debates, many moments of tension, of ideological division, of frustration,” Mendez said. “But this is also a room where, as my secular humanist tradition stresses, by the very fact of being human, we have much more in common than we have differences. We share the same spectrum of potential for care, for compassion, for fear, for joy, for love

[Fumesucker]

69. This one is not too bad, although it's the Agnostic's Prayer not the athiests..

"Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to ensure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen."

[indivisibleman]

23. The only place this would make sense would be in a theocracy.

The purpose of prayer is to appeal to a higher power. If the people are not in agreement on this purpose it becomes an exercise in hypocrisy.

[sakabatou]

25. I'm sure that someone will come up with a Satanist prayer to say at these meetings

[Swede Atlanta]

26. I find it hard to reconcile that it is okay....

to open government meetings with prayers (that are usually Christian) but we severely limit religion at school events including graduation.

I didn't graduate with my high school class because I was overseas as an exchange student but we always had a Baccalaureate Service one day and Graduation the next.

I lived in a small town in the intermountain west. Everyone took it for granted.

Either we are a secular nation with separation of church and state or we aren't. You can't have it both ways Supremes.

[factsarenotfair]

27. Mark Twain's War Prayer? St. Francis' Peace Prayer?

War Prayer
"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle – be Thou near them! With them, in spirit, we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it – for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.



The Peace Prayer

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, the truth;
Where there is doubt, the faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled, as to console;
To be understood, as to understand;
To be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen.

[Mondavi]

32. Message delivered by prayer to "Divine, Lord, Master"?

[Mondavi]

28. Government validates a sky god?

since this nation was founded and until the present day, many Americans deem that their own existence must be understood by precepts far beyond that authority of government to alter or define.”

"Many Americans"?

There is no universal truth of a sky god and the government should not be involved in establishing one.

[Marshall III]

34. The ruling was supported by the practice of inviting representatives of all beliefs to lead the

prayer, and bases it's findings on the historic proactice of opening public meetings with prayer.

Given that the rulling cites historic precedent, rather than adherence to dogma, and requires that no religion be chosen over any other strengthens the ruling.

[Dawson Leery]

43. Am I allowed to sit down with my arms crossed during the prayer then?

[Marshall III]

46. Absolutely.

Or uncrossed. Let your imagination take you......

[happyslug]

47. Read the Majority opinion, they support your right NOT to participate.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-696_4f57.pdf

The issue for the court was how "coercive" such a prayer was, the Majority found it not to be "coercive" and thus constitutional.

[Mondavi]

70. So then it's not "prayer"? What is it?

We've had most of the "historic practices" to do with prayer and religious rulings overturned, fortunately. Including swearing an oath on Bibles in courtrooms. This takes us backwards.

This also resurrected the idea of the majority being able to inflict their beliefs on the few.
We've had cases like this based on a majority of the people in a town being "Christian" given
permission to flaunt their religious beliefs on public property.

[Marshall III]

72. No one has said that this is not prayer.

No religion is favored and no one is coerced into participating. No problem.

[malthaussen]

35. "God damn it, we forgot the silent prayer!"

Eisenhower at a cabinet meeting.

-- Mal

[Niceguy1]

37. even in progressive California

Meetings are started with a prayer, a different person every time, not all Christians, either.

[Dawson Leery]

38. Was this matter not settled in 1962?

What we have here are activist conservative judges.



I would remind Mr. Kennedy that the Christian God was invoked in the defense of genocide and slavery.

[happyslug]

48. No, in 1962 the issue was prays among people who COULD NOT walk out

Prays in School were ruled unconstitutional on the grounds that Children HAD to attend Public Schools, and as such could NOT avoid participating in prays that they may object to.

In Marsh vs Nebraska (cited in the opinion) the court ruled that when a State Legislature has a prayer at the opening of a session, that does NOT involve forcing people to participate in something they object to. It was a mere ceremonial act with no Coercive trait that has been done since BEFORE the adoption of the Bill of Rights, and continued AFTER the Adoption of the Bill of Rights.

The Majority ruled this pray was like opening prays by a Court (including the US Supreme Court), Congress or any State Legislatures, not like in a Public School with mandatory attendance. The Dissent wanted to say that such Local Government Meetings were much more like a Public School with its Mandatory attendance then State Legislatures with they ceremonial openings which often includes a pray.

[former9thward]

73. It was a different issue.

If it was settled why would Congress open its sessions everyday with a prayer? Why would the Supreme Court do the same thing?

[LoisB]

41. Why don't they just overturn everything in the Constitution in one swoop instead

of decimating it bit by bit?

[SeattleVet]

44. You do have to wonder, though, if their prayers ever...

espouse their own advice, from their own religion book, of if this would just confuse them:

Matthew 6:5-6

“And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you."

[happyslug]

45. Here is the actual opinion

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/13pdf/12-696_4f57.pdf

JUSTICE KENNEDY delivered the opinion of the Court, except as to Part II–B.*

KENNEDY, J., delivered the opinion of the Court, except as to Part II– B.

ROBERTS, C. J., and ALITO, J., joined the opinion in full, and

SCALIA and THOMAS, JJ., joined except as to Part II–B

ALITO Filed a Concurring opinion joined by SCALIA

THOMAS filed a concurring opinion, joined as to Part II of Thomas's opinion by SCALIA

BREYER wrote a dissenting opinion

KAGAN worte a dissenting opinion, joined by GINSBURG, BREYER AND SOTOMAYOR

The legal dispute is how "coercive" is such a prayer? The Majority says it is NOT for there is NO MANDATE for one to participate or even attend (unlike a prayer in a Public School or at a Public School Graduation). The Dissent says that the mere fact that people who may object to such a pray have to hear it if they have any dealings with the City Council makes it "coercive"for and thus a violation of the Establishment clause.

Notice even the Dissent was willing to accept the right of Legislature and the Court itself to hold prays as it begins its day for such a prayer is NOT "coercive" to any member of either a legislature or the Court (Through the Dissent does point out a pray before the start of a trial would still be "coercive&quot . Thus the real dispute is where to draw the line, the Majority says you have to show ACTUAL harm not just a claim of a harm, the Dissent say the Possibility of such a harm is enough.

[Scootaloo]

52. Well then I guess I'm going to have to show up to more town meetings with my drum and fringe

[1000words]

56. That's what I'm talking about!

Keep in mind too, there is no law stating you are required to keep quiet when others are praying.

[DeSwiss]

57. K&R

[blkmusclmachine]

59. In his Prayer Breakfast speech, BHO said "religion is under attack," "spreading Christianity is a

good use of foreign policy," and, as I read it, gave a big ol' nod of approval to the concept of "weaponizing Christianity."

Here is his speech:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/02/06/remarks-president-national-prayer-breakfast

[Mondavi]

71. Using Christianity as a means of conquest is nothing new

for US which has a long history of it.

But sad to hear that Obama said this and feel he has too much and wrongly used his beliefs politically.

[JoePhilly]

75. Thanks for the link ... but its shame you misquoted it so thoroughly.

I think people should skip your assessment and read the actual speech instead.

[Xipe Totec]

64. Dear Lord, deliver us from these imbeciles. Amen nt