The only indignation I see here is yours. There was none on my part, perhaps you are speaking to some side in this issue - I have none. I will attempt to answer your volley of questions, very loaded ones, and will attempt to set the record straight between us on every one of them:
"IMF austerity is good if the right company gets paid?"
Where did I say that? Austerity hurts people and benefits the 1%. It is a massive theft of the Commons. There is no 'right company,' IMO.
"If Ukrainians suffer to pay Gazprom that's OK. It's a Russian company. No one gets a free ride."
Where did I say they should suffer or that it's OK? What guarantee is there that they will suffer from either Gazprom or the IMF, if both sides come to agreement to make it work, is it my business to tell the people of Ukraine that they have done the wrong thing to get gas?
Whatever your opinion of how these two entities function, those with the resources will be paid, that's how transactions are done.
If I don't pay my rent or utilities, no matter what ideological defense I want to present, what do you think the outcome will be for me? Or for an entire country? And did I say any of this was fair?
Ukraine will make a deal with whoever they think is best, with the IMF or the Russians, I don't care. The money will be paid, by taxes, sales, or whatever.
I hope it works out for the people there, but they are being robbed by the oligarchs, and they have been for a long time. This is a problem in the Americas, and every place as their governments collapse, and I see outside forces working in them. But this thread is about paying for gas, and I'm not going to conflate the two issues, all I want is for them to get it.
I did not want to see the government collapse, i don't know your take on that, and that is not what this post is. Elections would have been better.
"If the same Ukrainians had to suffer to pay Shell or another big Western oil/gas company that would be bad, right?"
That is such a mouthful that I can't make out where you are coming from there. Are you implying I want them to pay Shell or Gaszprom?
Does it matter who they pay so long as they get what they need? Isn't that the issue, not the brand of fuel they get? Where do you want them to get the fuel from if not some oil company from any country?
I believe all nations need to get off the fossil fuel train ASAP and suggsted it would be good for Ukraine to invest in that as soon as they can to end being destabilized and prevent suffering.
And for the record, I am in favor of nationalizing the essentials, things that people will suffer and die without, water, power and healthcare. If a government wants to contract it out, fine, so long as the universal coverage remains, and people are not harmed by the profit motive. There are great things the private sector can do, but I don't agree that essentials should be denied for the bottom line and that profits are more important than the environment or people. Some don't agree.
"How dare a Western company bring up the issue of free riders?"
Do you think I speak for a Western company? Did you read a Western company used that term? Please don't ascribe their words to me. I never said there were any 'free riders' as it's a personal judgement that I don't make and I'm certainly not in Ukraine and in fear of losing everything, not that I really own anoything of worth. But there is no such thing as a free ride, is there?
"These are poor people who will suffer from austerity, not 'free riders'"
Once again, I didn't call the people of Ukraine 'free riders.' I said there is no such thing as a free ride, and have found this to be true. not personal and where you find an attack is beyond me and I think you are reacting to some other person or another characterization that I did not make here. What have you seen in my posting on this that leads you to think that?
"Indignation can be so situational."
Where, I ask, is my indignation? It is not helpful, nor is shame.
I am not in any way truly affected by the situation in Ukraine, although I have extended family and friends in or from that part of the world. I have enjoyed the DU writings of those who have been there.
Three people in my family have family in Kiev and Moscow, but they have moved here, are happy and are not political. Only those in Moscow have political views . I respect them.
I do not have a dog in this fight. I respect all sides. I cannot tell what you think from your post to me, other than you are outraged at me for some reason. Indignant, over your perception of what I said, and which in no way meets what you wrote to me.
In some threads I have gotten tired of hysteria, but never attacked any of the players involved. Even those who claimed that Obama was going to nuke Russia, so I posted facts and tried to make a logical argument to them that there would not be theromonuclear war coming. I don't have a lack of sympathy, but have been looking for the truth and how the world really works.
I have found Dipsey's threads informative from the UK POV and others have their own. Some anti-Russian posters seem unfair until they reveal their connection and passions. Some of the pro-Russian, as this crisis as unfortunately been narrowed down here at DU as either or, make grave accusations at people who are doing their best IRL and at DU, and want the truth.
No, not TheTruth© as defined by Alex Jones, etc. Been there, done that and perhaps my lack of support for that world view is what is really galls some here at DU, but I can't tell. I don't know what your barrage of a post to me means, really, I don't.
Pampango, I've always respected your well thought out posts, and referred people to them. But I never recieved a reply from you at all, until I get this one, and have no idea why you took this tack.
Things are paid for in this world, by blood, submission, work or changing things. Often it is a miserable process. Some Ukrainians want to get with Russia. Some don't want to be. I'll bet a lot of them just want this to all back to what they had before. Some want the status quo, but it appeared to be as unbearable as it is now. It's a nightmare.
Making arrangements to get the oil and gas to the people who need it, in order to protect their safety, economy and health, is essential. They are no different than anyone else in the world. They need it.
There will be no magic solution. And it will be paid for in some way, nothing in life is free. By blood or brotherhood and I'm hoping it will be the latter.
I thought I was agreeing with you, and I hope you understand me here, but if you want to rail at me, I doubt anything I have to say will suffice. And that took a lot of my time trying to make sense of where you were coming from.
Peace Out.
= new reply since forum marked as read
- I'm sure these economic intervention policies are bound to work sooner or later. If only by chance.
