Hong Kongers defy Beijing, cast votes in ‘illegal’ referendum

[IDemo]

Source: Taipei Times

Hong Kongers cast ballots in an unofficial referendum on democratic reform yesterday, as booths opened across the territory in a poll that has enraged Beijing and drawn nearly 650,000 votes since it opened online.

Tensions are growing in the former British colony over the future of its electoral system, with residents making increasingly vocal calls to be able to choose who can run for the post of chief executive.

Hong Kong’s leader is currently selected by a 1,200-strong pro-Beijing committee. China has promised direct elections to select the next chief executive in 2017, but has ruled out allowing voters to choose which candidates can stand.

Beijing and Hong Kong officials have dismissed the poll as illegal, but participation since voting began online on Friday has beaten all expectations — despite a major cyberattack that the organizers have blamed on Beijing.

Read more: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2014/06/23/2003593452

[MADem]

1. Hong Kong is INDEPENDENT--as independent as BEIJING will allow them to be.

They can kiss their asses goodbye. There will be arrests, people will melt away into the distance, the nails that stick up WILL get hammered down.

It's all an illusion, that "democracy" stuff. They may let it ride for awhile, but not for too long.

1200 people choose HK's leadership...and none of 'em live in HK.

[BeyondGeography]

2. I give the people there credit

for reminding Beijing regularly that they remain very attached to the notion of one country, two systems. The first genuinely free elections were to be in 2017 per the handover agreement. I don't rule out a major confrontation over that, one that forces Beijing to come clean on its intentions.

[MADem]

3. Sort of like the mosquito reminding the elephant that it has a stinger.

The fact of the matter is, the elephant pretty much doesn't care.

This little game of an "independent" Hong Kong is only useful as a 'plausible deniability' outpost for Beijing...if they need to do business that goes outside their area, they take it to HK.

I don't think Beijing will get all confrontational; but I wouldn't be surprised if troublemakers end up in jail for other reasons.

[Uncle Joe]

6. One thing about mosquitoes

they can do far more damage than their size might otherwise indicate.

http://www.vox.com/2014/4/28/5661480/mosquitos-kill-more-humans-than-any-other-animal-including-humans

[Exultant Democracy]

7. awesome post

[MADem]

10. They "can," but we can kill them pretty efficiently, too, when we want to...

We don't always WANT to do it, but we can.

If we put our might behind eradicating mosquito borne illnesses, instead of some of the other dumb shit we back, we could bring that number way, WAY down.

It's simply a question of WILL. We, quite frankly, don't have it.

[Uncle Joe]

11. That's true, MADem we can easily kill a mosquito (s) and perhaps one day we will eradicate malaria

but just as mosquitoes transmit this killer disease, so can humans spread ideas or ideals and so while wiping out Malaria is much more difficult than killing some mosquitoes the same holds true for eliminating the desire for democracy.

First it was Tiananmen Sq. now it's Hong Kong, even if the Chinese government cracks down on the people desiring to vote for their own and kills some "mosquitoes" I don't believe that will be the end of it.

[MADem]

12. Well, I am not going to propose any mosquito-like "final solution" for people with 'shitty ideas.'

I always maintain that the solution to speech is more speech.

Of course, in Hong Kong, good luck with that. 1200 people make the decision on who rules that little oddball enclave, and we don't even know who they are. Any speech that they don't like can be harshly dealt with if they've a mind.

Here's the sad bottom line--if Beijing wants HK to be a certain way, that's how it's gonna be, and they'll use bread and circuses, or carrots, or STICKS if that's what it takes. Or they may use illusions, that look good, that make people believe they direct events, but are meaningless.

The only way that "the Chinese people" are going to change the way they are ruled is if they find the elements of democracy, in particular, the "individualism" bit, attractive to the point that they're willing to risk life and limb to forsake thousands of years of cultural history, tear down a central leadership, and construct a new paradigm.

Just because I say this, like some uncivil types upthread aver, that doesn't mean I'm "pleased" about it. I'm just not stupid. I don't think the Chinese leadership are, either. I realize that Teddy Roosevelt was an absolute piker compared to the leadership in Beijing when it comes to speaking softly and carrying a tire iron. Those guys don't play.

TienAnMen was a looooooong time ago. It's hard to build movements when you have to reach across generations. If the Chinese just have to worry about upstarts every quarter century or so, they can--as they often do--excercise that formidable ability to plan and that legendary patience they possess to extinguish any of that pesky democracy business cropping up four times a century, here and there.

[christx30]

8. Interesting post.

Not support for people that are expressing a desire for independence from an oppressive government, but a dire warning that all who oppose the regime will be put down. Guess you think Taiwan should return to China and abandon any pesky thoughts of freedom and independence, huh? And Tibet just needs to accept Chinese rule and genocide, right? And those treasonous people Tiananmen Square
got what they deserved, right?

[MADem]

9. Interesting post. INDEED.

That was a real TRIFECTA you pulled out of your what-ever:

***Snide accusation that an absence of cheerleading "implies" support for a totalitarian regime.

***Completely halfassed and unsupported suggestion that I support the annexation of Taiwan by "Red" Chna (psst--wrong again, Sherlock!).

***Icing on the cake? "You must hate TIBET, too!!!!"

Nice work. Thou shalt CHEERLEAD... or risk the WRATH of Christx30, who knows what people THINK!!!!

You really should be ashamed of yourself--your post is nothing but dirty little smears and false accusations--and I don't know you from a hole in the wall, but based on the way you interact with people here, I sure as hell don't care to.

You might want to crawl down off the cross and stop playing "the only martyr who UNDERSTANDS..."

It gets lame and OLD, and you just come off sounding like a miserable scold. It's also UNCIVIL as hell, making unsubstantiated accusations against people in that fashion.

Do pardon me for seeing what the facts on the ground are--you go on ahead, keep on cheerleading, scolding everyone who isn't wearing rose-colored glasses for that which you deem is insufficent enthusiasm, and playing the Happy-Glad game, while those of us who understand the reality (and the absolute determined might) of Beijing take a more realistic approach to world events.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

4. Many in Hong Kong seems to be picking up a nationalist streak

Something I have noticed is the HK Chinese speaking to each other in English a lot more and openly expressing disdain not just for the Chinese government but the mainland and ordinary mainlanders in general.

[Uncle Joe]

5. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, IDemo.