UPDATED ~ Kerry: Ukraine rebels likely downed passenger jet

[DonViejo]

Last edited Sun Jul 20, 2014, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: ASSOCIATED PRESS

SUNDAY, JUL 20, 2014 09:15 AM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — The United States is putting the likely blame for the downed Malaysian passenger plane on Ukraine separatists who had Russian military help.

Secretary of State John Kerry is citing a mix of U.S. intelligence and social media reports as evidence that he says “obviously points a very clear finger at the separatists.”

Kerry says there’s been a major flow of arms and weapons crossing the Russian border over the past month to help the Ukrainian rebels who are fighting to break away in the east from the central government.

Kerry says separatists have shot down about 12 aircraft over the last month, and bragged about Thursday’s attack on the Malaysian plane until they realized it was a commercial jet. Kerry appeared on five talk shows Sunday.

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Read more: http://www.salon.com/2014/07/20/kerry_ukraine_rebels_likely_downed_passenger_jet/

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SUNDAY, JUL 20, 2014 09:15 AM EDT

Kerry defends Israel’s right to defend itself

WASHINGTON (AP) — Secretary of State John Kerry says Israel “has every right in the world to defend itself” from attacks by Hamas militants in Gaza, but the U.S. is working diligently to get an immediate cease-fire in place.

Kerry says Israel long has endured rocket attack by Hamas, and no nation “would sit there while rockets are bombarding it.”

Kerry also cites tunnels constructed by Hamas in what he says is “an obvious effort” to try to kidnap Israelis.

Kerry tells NBC’s “Meet the Press” that it’s “unacceptable by any standard anywhere in the world” and that Israel must protect its citizens. Kerry also says he believes that President Barack Obama will want him to return to the Mideast shortly to see if a cease-fire can be put in place.

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http://www.salon.com/2014/07/20/kerry_defends_israels_right_to_defend_itself/

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UPDATE:

Kerry On Plane: Evidence 'Points Very Clear Finger At The Separatists'

By CAITLIN MACNEAL Published JULY 20, 2014, 10:00 AM EDT

Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday said that evidence gathered on activity in Ukraine before, during and after the Malaysian plane was shot down over eastern Ukraine points to pro-Russian separatists.

"It obviously points very clear finger at the separatists," Kerry said on CNN's "State of the Union" about evidence collected thus far about the plane. Kerry said that "we know for certain" that separatists were trained by Russians to use missiles, and that they had a system on Monday. And "within hours" of when the plane was shot down, a missile system passed through two towns near the crash site.

He stopped short of blaming Russia, however. When host Candy Crowley asked if Russia and Vladimir Putin were "culpable" in shooting down the plane, Kerry said that "people can make their own judgements about what they read here."

He did say that this is a "wake up call" for Europe to join in U.S. sanctions against Russia. Separatists have also been interfering with evidence, Kerry said. He told CNN they have removed parts of the plane and have been piling bodies in an unceremonious way.

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/kerry-plane-evidence-points-to-separatists

[geek tragedy]

1. Kerry is obviously right on Ukraine.

He needs to give it a rest on Israel-Palestine--he and Obama aren't respected by either side, so let someone else deal with it.

[cosmicone]

2. This will be a battle of ouija boards.

There is never going to be any absolute proof.

If the rebels did it, they had nothing to gain and everything to lose from this. The focus should then be on why the air taffic controllers in Kiev sent the plane directly where other planes were shot down. Ukraine is the ONLY beneficiary of the aftermath.

It is like how detectives ask, "who benefits from this murder?"

[daleo]

3. I think it was a straight up error, most likely by the rebels

But it could be either side, given the fog of war. A Siberian Airlines plane was shot down in 2001 in this general area, so there is precedent for error on the Ukrainian government side, too.

I don't think there is an advantage to either side, when something like this happens, so nobody has a reason to do it deliberately. But once it happens, all sides will adjust their propaganda accordingly, to gain whatever advantage they can, and minimize what harms they can.

I don't see a widespread war coming from it, or even more widespread sanctions against Russia. The powers that be on both sides will make some noise, but ultimately there is too much at stake to escalate over a civilian plane shoot down. Europe needs Russian energy and no sane person will risk war between nuclear powers.

[BlueEye]

5. Unfortunately, even nations with significant experience operating these weapons systems...

can make terrible mistakes. The United States Navy did as much in 1988 when we shot Iran Air Flight 655 over the Persian Gulf. As you noted, Ukraine has had accidental shootdowns too.

At the same time, I think the evidence generally points to Putin's rebels right now. Every single shootdown of a military aircraft leading up to this point in the conflict has been of a Ukrainian aircraft by the rebels. The rebels themselves don't have aircraft. The Russians obviously do, but the Ukraine won't shoot them down because it would be an unwanted escalation. Plus, I don't think the Russian Air Force has been making incursions into Ukraine.

[cosmicone]

6. it is possible that the air taffic contol

in Kiev sent the plane in harm's way knowing that if shot down, would end rebels' use of the SAM systems.

[IronGate]

4. Give it a rest.

The world community isn't believing your brand of bullshit, they know who shot it down, it was the fascist pro Russian terrorists.

[cosmicone]

7. only the US and the puppet government in Ukraine

are pointing fingers.

Everyone else (sanely) is waiting for more evidence even Netherlands and Malaysia.

The rebels had nothing to gain and everything to lose by shooting down the plane. The only side that benefits is the puppet in Ukraine - it has now put an end to the rebels' use of missiles and Russian aid, put Russia on the defensive and stands to get billions in aid. Follow the money - or continue to beat chest to the rhythm of "Putin bad... Putin bad"

[TwilightGardener]

9. You keep asking "who benefits", but actually no one does, this was an unplanned

fuck-up by Putin and his merry loons. Now Putin's destabilizing low-simmer of a war is in jeopardy as the world turns against him and his efforts in Ukraine.

[cosmicone]

10. your post proves it doesn't benefit Putin

and it directly benefits the Ukrainian puppet.

That is why Kiev ATC diverted the plane's route 200 miles to fly over the rebel territory. Quite sneaky.

[TwilightGardener]

12. Yes, the Ukrainian ATC actions were deliberate, to kill a planeload of innocents, but

Putin's vodka-soaked loons just made a mistake. I'm sorry, that's a conspiracy theory totally divorced from reason or sanity. You can't seem to accept that the Shirtless Wonder just really blew it here.

[IronGate]

13. And yet you said in another thread that you were waiting for the investigation to conclude,

seems that's not the truth.

[cosmicone]

15. The jury is in on who benefits from the crash.

The jury is out on who shot the plane down and why.

[IronGate]

16. More mistruths.

Your agenda here is crystal clear, blame the Ukrainian govt for this terrorist act while defending the pro Russian terrorists who actually shot this plane out of the sky.

[cosmicone]

18. Hypothetically, even if the rebels shot the plane

it was an accident. They may have mistaken it for a Ukrainian supply or military plane. That is not terrorism.

[TwilightGardener]

20. Yes, it was the air traffic controllers who are the real terrorists here.

Not, you know, some guys who still hide their identities with masks and fire shots at OSCE investigators.

[LuvLoogie]

26. Or they just wanted to shoot down a plane, any plane.

Drunken idiots armed by a homophobic narcissist.

[IDemo]

21. The jury is also out on who killed Nicole

Oh wait a minute, no they aren't.

[Billy Budd]

23. They knew the Rebels had weapons ....I think Kiev hoped for a shoot down

KIEV—Ukraine intelligence officials said they knew three days before the downing of Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -11.11% Flight 17 that rebels in the east of the country possessed sophisticated air-defense systems capable of felling a jetliner at altitudes in excess of where the Boeing BA +1.40% 777 was flying.

The disclosure deepens the mystery of why Ukrainian aviation officials failed to entirely close off the airspace in the Donetsk region, where the jet was flying went it was shot down, killing all 298 people on board.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

[cosmicone]

27. Kiev is ultimately to blame... you're correct. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

8. I'm sure the evil, bloodthirsty Ukrainian air traffic controllers are high-fiving each other

over finally sending a plane to its doom...

[cosmicone]

11. You are gradually navigating towards being correct. n/t

[TwilightGardener]

14. Holy shit. You have got to be kidding.

No, maybe you aren't. This must be the newest talking point today. Fascinating to see how the Putin defense evolves by the day, even hour.

[IronGate]

17. Yet, in other threads,

he claims he's waiting for the investigation to conclude.

[TwilightGardener]

19. Yes, of course, because there so far hasn't BEEN a real investigation and Putin made sure

that an impartial, reliable body of evidence will never be presented, because his idiots in Ukraine have deliberately fucked it all up, and they're stealing credit cards, to boot. But yeah, Cosmic One, we'll just wait. In the meantime, of course, the Ukrainian government is to blame somehow. You know, for inviting these "rebels" and Russian Special Forces into Donetsk, along with a functioning Buk system, to use missiles against commercial airliners. That was very irresponsible of them. Plus, their air traffic controllers, usually known as diligent people who dedicate themselves to aviation safety, suddenly turned into psycho killers and sent this plane to Donetsk to get shot down. IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!!!1!!1

[IDemo]

22. I call it the Diode Effect

A diode is an electronic component that permits current to flow in only one direction. Seems to work for internet arguments as well.

[Billy Budd]

24. Kiev acted irresponsibly

Ukraine Knew of Separatists' Air-Defense Capabilities, Say Officials

Claims Raise Questions of Why Ukraine Failed to Close Airspace

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-knew-of-separatists-air-defense-capabilities-say-officials-1405781508

"I can't think of any reason why you would increase a restriction to 32,000 feet when the bad boys have just demonstrated a capability to go all the way," said a European aviation safety veteran. The airspace should have been closed, he said.

[Billy Budd]

25. stop with the Info war

"both the Obama administration and the U.S. press corps should stop this pattern of rushing to judgments. It’s as if they’re obsessed with waging “information warfare” – i.e., justifying hostilities toward some adversarial nation – rather than responsibly informing the American people."

"We saw this phenomenon in 2002-03 as nearly the entire Washington press corps clambered onboard President George W. Bush’s propaganda bandwagon into an aggressive war against Iraq. That pattern almost repeated itself last summer when a similar rush to judgment occurred around a sarin gas attack outside Damascus, Syria, on Aug. 21.
"

[cosmicone]

28. +1,000,000 n/t

[pampango]

29. Let facts determine the policy. The reverse of that is the republican way: Policy determines "facts"