MH17 crash: Did Russia pull the trigger? Ukraine says yes

[IDemo]

Source: CNN

Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Did a Russian fire the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17? That depends on who you ask.

A top Ukrainian official says he has no doubt.

Vitaly Nayda, Ukraine's director of informational security, told CNN the person who shot down the flight was "absolutely" a Russian. "A Russian-trained, well-equipped, well-educated officer ... pushed that button deliberately," he said.

"We taped conversations" between a Russian officer and his office in Moscow, Nayda said. "We know for sure that several minutes before the missile was launched, there was a report" to a Russian officer that the plane was coming, he said.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[geek tragedy]

1. Well of course he has no doubt, he's just a wee bit biased.

Ukraine would do well to not overplay their hand here.

[ColesCountyDem]

2. Agreed.

IF it's true, and Ukraine has the evidence, better to turn that evidence over to a credible (and neutral) third-party and let THEM examine it and announce that conclusion.

[Gore1FL]

3. On the face of it, it looks like the Russians.

IT will be interesting to see how it looks as more facts are uncovered.

[cosmicone]

4. ukraine has been spinning and milking this

like there is no tomorrow.

"Armed thugs stole the bodies and remains" - they simply moved them to refrigerated storage on rail cars.
"masked and hooded bandits managin remains" - simply medical protective gear

They also release fake tapes - one which had a Russian officer who died five years ago.

[Turbineguy]

12. Both sides have been trained by the Soviets.

Masters at dis-information.

[Igel]

5. You have to be really, really careful with translations here.

Really. There's "russkii" and there's "rossiiskii". Both are "Russian." But "russkii" is the ethnicity and "rossiiskii" means "from Russia". You can be a Ukrainian citizen and be russkii, or be rossiiskii and an ethnic Chechen.

Then there's the use of "russkii" to mean "russkoiazychnyi" or "Russian speaking." So a lot of ethnic Ukrainians are monolingual Russian-speakers. Putin considers them all "ethnic Russians" for defense purposes, solely to muddy the waters and increase the amount of shit he can stir. I think of them as "cultural Russians."

The rebels are Russian speaking. Many consider themselves cultural Russians, but their Russian is either Southern Russian or surzhyk. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surzhyk )

Almost all their leaders and most of the rebels are ethnic Russians.

Many of their leaders are from Russia--Russian citizens or born and bred in Russia and only moving to Ukraine later, and usually ethnic Russians.

More than a few of their fighters and even commanders are officers from Russia but not ethnic Russians.

"Officer" has the same problem. The DPR and LPR have their own military IDs. Some of the commanders and leaders were Russian FSB or other officers. Some still are. Then there are officers that are only officers in the eyes of the DPR and LPR. There are Cossack "officers." And Chechen "officers."

"Russian officer" can have far too many meanings. She needs to be precise, because *any* doubt, even beyond a reasonable doubt, will be taken as "you don't have any proof" after the terms of the debate are shifted from "ultimately responsible for the downing of the plane" to "who actually pushed the 'fire' button on the piece of equipment".

[nikto]

6. If it WAS a Russian officer who is responsible...

That man's death will be ordered by Putin.
The man may be dead already.


The whole incident makes Putin weaker, and sets back any goals he may have in Ukraine.
It turns many Euros and Asians against him also.

The incident does nothing to help Putin, and
everything to hurt and embarrass him.

It looks to me like rogue elements, or maybe just undisciplined/overly gung-ho
soldiers going ahead and doing this on their own.
If so, those soldiers are toast.

Anyone who thinks Putin wanted to "bag" an airliner is hopelessly stupid.

Putin obviously had some plan for the missiles (to be used against Ukraine military jets, or
perhaps NATO bombers, if they got involved).

But for shooting down a civilian aircraft?
There is absolutely NO cui bono for such an action on Putin's part.

[zeemike]

8. The only ones I can see that would have a motive for it is Kiev.

Because they want the US aid in wining the war, and propping them up financially.
And if you can blame it on the Russians or the separatist they will get it.
And we are well set up with Putin hate.

[nikto]

9. Exactly!!

It's amazing how many on DU still JUMP when mass-media tells them to.

Have they learned nothing?

[cosmicone]

13. I know. I have been saying the same thing

" follow the benefits"... The only party that benefits from the downing of a civilian plane is the puppet government in Kiev.

Furthermore, Kiev air taffic controllers diverted the plane's route to fly directly over the rebel territiry where SAMs were being used. Was there an ulterior motive to silence the rebels and get Western aid by inflaming passions?

This is why only Ukraine, US and poodles UK and AU were screaming while the rest of the world was waiting for more info.

[reorg]

7. more proof circulating on the internet

[cosmicone]

14. LMAO

[nikto]

10. NEEDED: SMART PEOPLE WHO CAN ADD TO THIS LIST...

The benefits to Putin
of this downed airliner incident:

1.
2.
3.
4.
etc




Please feel free to make the list as long as you want.

[Adrahil]

11. While the Russians beat enormous responsibility, I have seen no evidence of this.

In fact, this has all the hallmarks of ill-trained and ill-discipline rabble getting trigger happy.