US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing

[Billy Budd]

Source: MSN News

WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.


The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.


Read more: http://news.msn.com/world/us-no-link-to-russian-govt-in-plane-downing

[geomon666]

1. I can only imagine if Shrub were still around

Shock and Awe 2 would already be well underway. "Damn the reports!"

[RKP5637]

2. This is clearly going to distress Cheney. He wanted to ride in on one of those

Shock and Awe 2 missiles.

[geomon666]

5. Darth Cheney doesn't have an ounce of the balls Slim Pickens did. n/t

[IronGate]

25. My favorite scene from Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

[awoke_in_2003]

58. I dont think Shrub

would have bombed Russia- he only went after states that couldnt defend themselves

[geomon666]

59. Good point n/t

[Iliyah]

3. MSN? Really and no names. . I call bullshit on this one

[Warren Stupidity]

6. WSJ is running the same story. The intelligence case is weak and there is

no evidence of Russian involvement.


http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-officials-lay-out-case-against-russians-1406063846

[Hell Hath No Fury]

9. Most of the damning intel has come from Ukraine --

To date, US has only spoken about our intel that shows the missile trajectory, the type of missile, and where it came from. There is much work yet still to be done beyond what Ukraine says to see if it can be linked directly to Moscow/Putin. Thank heavens for cool heads.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. Ukraine was also present in the area with SAMs. Not a disinterested party.

But for several days now some people have been claiming that US intelligence had hard evidence against Russia, now it seems they don't.

[cprise]

29. Yes, I hear an MSM CT bubble bursting. n/t

[MattSh]

37. And they have no incentive to lie... err stretch the truth?

The only thing between them and total economic collapse is the future promise of more billions of dollars from the IMF.

[geek tragedy]

11. Um, no that's not what the article says. It says there's no evidence of a direct

Russian link.

Other U.S. officials, including some at the Pentagon, have said with more certainty in recent days that Russia likely provided the missile system used by separatists to shoot down Flight 17. The more restrained presentation by intelligence officials Tuesday reflected the cautious nature of intelligence analysis.

...
The officials said that the U.S. detected a surface-to-air missile launch at the time that the airliner was hit, in roughly the same separatist-controlled area in Eastern Ukraine; that there has been a growing flow of weapons from Russia to separatists over the last month; that Russians have provided training for separatist fighters in southwest Russia on antiaircraft weapons and other arms; and that separatists have downed more than a dozen aircraft during the conflict.

..


The officials also said they had corroborated some of the Ukrainian communications intercepts that Kiev has said show separatists discussing the shootdown, using voiceprint analysis by the National Security Agency and the Central Intelligence Agency. They added that they are still going through their own databases of intercepts to find corroborating evidence, and that doing so could take time.

U.S. officials showed aerial photos of what they said was a training center in southwest Russia where separatists were taught to use air defense systems.

That is not 'weak' intelligence (as always, with the provision that it's true)

[Cha]

36. Guess who jumped all over that headline within minutes?..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=853369

[Warren Stupidity]

38. Yes that was the part of the article citing the prior "leaks".

The ones that claimed that there was more evidence than it seems there now is. The WSJ did a disservice by mixing both together without making it clear they were doing that, but then again this whole thing with unnamed sources providing unsourced "background" is bullshit to begin with. If we have evidence of direct Russian involvement we should put it on the table instead of leaking "stuff".

[Billy Budd]

42. I call Pavlov on this one

Pavlov rang the bellicose bells and they started slobbering at Russia and at Putin...Putin is a nasty piece of work no doubt as is our US political leadership ...our Politicians ain't better morally ethically than Putin ...

[Iamthetruth]

4. Whether they pulled the trigger or not

It does not matter, they supplied, trained and helped cover it up. They are guilty of involvement and I can only hope that Europe has tired of their bullying tactics and collectively stand up to them.

[Billy Budd]

8. Ron Paul weighed in usefully

“That may well be true, but guess what, ISIS has a lot of American weapons…. It doesn’t mean that our American government and Obama deliberately wanted ISIS to get American weapons. So who gets the weapons is a big difference between how they got them and what happened and what the motivations were. So even if it was a Russian weapon — doesn’t mean a lot.”

[geek tragedy]

12. "Ron Paul weighed in usefully"

Oh, and welcome to DU. Be sure to go west at some point, young man.

[Cha]

27. That's got to be the libertarian bullshit statement of the day.

[Billy Budd]

39. yeah sure like Alqaeda

was not created by US Intelligence ...do and smell the coffee ...we created AlQaeda ....that is a matter of record ....Bin Laden was a CIA tactician....I doi not accept your judgement as it is deeply flawed by lack of information and perspective...

[Iamthetruth]

13. That is a bad comparison

I doubt the US directly gave weapons and instructions on our weapons, it's quite clear Russia had to at least train them on this weapon.

[daleo]

16. They got the U.S. weapons from Santa Claus

There is no way the U.S. was involved.

[candelista]

22. No, it was the Easter Bunny.

He's the one dishing out all the M16A4s. Santa teaches them how to use them.

[Cha]

26. Ron Paul is about as "useful" as a fucking bucket full of holes.

[Tarheel_Dem]

33. Aw Jeez. Ron Paul? Really?

[Billy Budd]

40. even a blind squirrel ...

I am no Ron Paul fan... I would not dream of voting for him supporting him etc ...I think the way he views things in general is wrongheaded ...I listen to the dull and ignorant and the biased too because they all have a story ....in this case he sure does have a point ....we can't get up on a moral horse about weaponizing people what are you kidding...

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. Honestly, did you & Ron Paul think a former KGB agent would actually leave his fingerprints?

[Billy Budd]

49. Former CIA chief G H Bush

did he leave hiss finger prints in Panama Iraq etc ...get real.....CIA is much worst than KGB ...what you kidding

[Tarheel_Dem]

50. Well, unlike Russia, you have to go back several adminstrations. Ukraine is happening NOW.

They shot a plane out of the sky with Putin missles, and the world is pissed, despite you & Ron Paul's claims to the contrary.

[Billy Budd]

55. we kill all sort of folks

and the world is pissed . Here is a weak defense " you have to go back several administrations'... no I don't Washington manipulated the Ukraine overthrow...we are number one when it comes to killing innocent people...lets see Iraq Afghanistan Panama The Dominican Republic Vietnam Korea ...... who is "they" it was not the Russians no matter how insulting you get ....

Here is something more recent despite you and the Jingo crowd

Gallup poll, 2013:

Question asked: “Which country do you think is the greatest threat to peace in the world today?”

Replies:

United States 24%
Pakistan 8%
China 6%
Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea, each 5%
India, Iraq, Japan, each 4%
Syria 3%
Russia 2%
Australia, Germany, Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Korea, UK, each 1%
http://williamblum.org/aer/read/130

[Tarheel_Dem]

63. Ukraine is happening NOW. Russia just shot a plane full of people out of the sky.

What don't you get about that? Oh, and welcome back.

[DeSwiss]

17. Does that maxim apply universally?

- Or just to Russia? Don't bother trying to pull an answer from anywhere, it was rhetorical.

It's kids and babies.

[candelista]

23. Even Ron Paul isn't wrong about everything.

It's actually kind of hard to be wrong about everything.

[TygrBright]

32. Yeah, it takes talent and dedication on the level of a Gohmert or a Cruz. n/t

[Billy Budd]

41. Israel is slaughtering Palestinians

We finance supply and protect Israel. We use our veto dozens of time to protect Israel from the consequences of its crimes ... we are responsible for the dead little kids on the beach....get real...you are saying the hell with the fact lets run with my bias on this ...get real

[Billy Budd]

7. Propaganda ministers, all of them:

Propaganda ministers, all of them: Our pathetic, spoon-fed media pushes half-truths, again
You can't separate MH-17 debate from Ukraine debate. Washington wants to, and a compliant media helps — as always

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/22/propaganda_ministers_all_of_them_our_pathetic_spoon_fed_media_pushes_half_truths_again/
........

MH-17 went down Thursday afternoon, local time. It took less than a day for Washington, by way of the military and intelligence officials who customarily spoon-feed the media, to begin the innuendo intended to “corral public opinion” (Zbigniew Brzezinski’s unforgettable phrase) toward a nice, plump case for Russian guilt. A day later we had the conviction by way of “a series of indicators of Russian involvement,” in Times terminology.

And in the course of the next day or so, we had the ad hominem case against Vladimir Putin. As Anastasia Lukina astutely called it, we demand an investigation and Putin damn well better clear the ground for it. In the meantime, we claim certainty that Russia, in the person of Putin, bears “direct responsibility” (Obama’s phrase) by way of Moscow’s straight-line control of the anti-Kiev, “Russian-backed” rebels.

[geek tragedy]

15. Smith may be the worst hack who has a regular column at Salon, and that's saying something.

From April:

The argument has been made several times in this space that President Obama is as a flyweight in the ring with a counterpuncher such as Vladimir Putin. This is no longer a question of argument or a columnist’s point of view. In the past few days we have the spectacle of Obama effectively surrendering to his Russian counterpart on the Ukraine crisis. Confirming this interpretation of Obama’s new position, announced last weekend, Putin appears to have since allowed himself a modest victory dance.

[candelista]

19. I think Putin and Obama made a deal.

The deal was to exchange Crimea for a Western-controlled Ukraine. That's why things have gone so smoothly, with the exception of eastern Ukraine, which is a quicksand. How dumb were they to not consider this?

[geek tragedy]

20. "That's why things have gone so smoothly, with the exception of eastern Ukraine"

"other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln?"

[candelista]

24. This could have escalated into a nuclear war.

Obama and Putin worked things out so it didn't. That's what went smoothly; and it is not insignificant.

[onehandle]

14. Bull.

What Domestic Terrorists Are Teaching Our Children

[DeSwiss]

18. It's amazing to me how everyone's now all concerned over.....

...some people they never knew who died in warfare. When we've been killing people we don't know in warfare for ages and hardly a damned word has been expressed. Not since Vietnam anyways.

- I guess we're finally glad to get that murderer's glare off of us for a minute and put in one someone else for a change.

K&R

It's kids and babies.

[delrem]

21. I've never seen anything so mind boggling.

There's no rationality that could explain it whatsoever.
But I've been boggled by it for several years now.

[DeSwiss]

31. Yes, it does defy logic.

- Which could only mean that if its not random, it's planned.

[delrem]

43. This article in the Asian Times gives an interesting take on the matter.

Orwell alive in Palestine, Ukraine
By John Pilger

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-01-220714.html

The article ends on this note:
"In the 1970s, I met Leni Riefenstahl and asked her about her films that glorified the Nazis. Using revolutionary camera and lighting techniques, she produced a documentary form that mesmerised Germans; it was her Triumph of the Will that reputedly cast Hitler's spell.

I asked her about propaganda in societies that imagined themselves superior. She replied that the "messages" in her films were dependent not on "orders from above" but on a "submissive void" in the German population. "Did that include the liberal, educated bourgeoisie?" I asked. "Everyone," she replied, "and of course the intelligentsia.""

[DeSwiss]

45. Yeah and Goebbels loved Eddie Bernays' book ''Propaganda'' too....

So all this has been laid bare for all to see, for some time now. Written down in a book that dictators and presidents have used to manipulate the public. And no one seemed to notice until recently.

- And they can do this with impunity because they know everyone's lives with their eyes closed.

Almost everyone.....

Read also:
As the Iraqi city of Mosul fell to the jihadists of ISIS, Obama said, "The American people made huge investments and sacrifices in order to give Iraqis the opportunity to chart a better destiny." How "cool" is that lie? How "finely spoken" was Obama's speech at the West Point military academy on May 28. Delivering his "state of the world" address at the graduation ceremony of those who "will take American leadership" across the world, Obama said, "The United States will use military force, unilaterally if necessary, when our core interests demand it. International opinion matters, but America will never ask permission ..."

[delrem]

57. Very informative video!

I can't help but think of the levels of duplicity.
Bernays was an entrepreneur profiting off his family background. Very open about it - not at all ashamed.
But he and his type have to hire people to put their programs into effect and those people have to be very deliberate, knowing, liars -- people willing to create whatever horror required, just to make a few thousand dollars. At the next level the program has to spread out through "pundits" and "journalists" who are either liars as well, or just plain criminally ignorant.

Saying nothing yet about "common folk", the "consumers".

Fast forward to current events, where it's clear to a load of DUers that the same thing is going on (and has been going) with no let up, no pause except maybe to reflect on how to refine the techniques, and who (the DUers) protest. But there's another set of DUers who eagerly go along - be it w.r.t. Libya, Syria, Ukraine, or whatever is the next target, the target of the day (or the hour, or the continent). How can they be that ignorant? Well, I'll leave that question to fester. Then there are Freepers on the Freeper boards, who I'm willing to say that yes, probably 90+% of them *are* savage barbarians without any clue beyond what's fed to them by the neocon machine -- so not guilty of *lying*, per se, or of thinking. The other 10% would be the lying, warmongering political hacks who orchestrate the frenzy on those boards.

[candelista]

28. Isn't this an artifact of the US corporate media?

The mainstream media focus public attention on certain things and ignore others. And the focus of public attention is slanted by the way these things are presented. Sometimes, however, this backfires. The public reaction to the President's plan to attack Syria is an example. That time, the media Kool-Aid didn't go down so easily.

[DeSwiss]

30. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Public attention is one thing. If you're getting your news from the MSM exclusively (which includes much of the Internets now), then of course they're completely brainwashed. DUers are supposedly more politically sophisticated so they know it's slanted news and why. They know it's bullshit and who's chucking for whom. And they know they're being played. Hell, DU was started because we were played in 2001! We KNEW the system was fucked. It's still fucked.

- We talk about here incessantly. Yet like good little Pavlovians, the salivation begins on cue.......

[center][/center]

[ozone_man]

54. Its amazing.

We are the mass murderers of the civilized world.

[DeSwiss]

60. Bringers of Democracy.....

...is catchier!



[center][/center]

[Cha]

34. Misleading AP Headline of the Day: “No Link to Russian Gov’t in Plane Downing”

"So what this really looks like is that some intelligence people were asked to give details about MH17, and carefully parsed their words to be as equivocal as possible. Basically, there’s no real news here at all — except the headline. And the headline is contradicted by the story.

"WASHINGTON (AP) — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for “creating the conditions” that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement."

The plane was likely shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, the intelligence officials said, citing intercepts, satellite photos and social media postings by separatists, some of which have been authenticated by U.S. experts."

But guess who jumped all over that headline within minutes?"

RT America ✔ @RT_America
Follow
BREAKING: US intelligence: No link to Russia in Malaysia plane downing http://on.rt.com/560xhh
11:12 AM - 22 Jul 2014

"Clearly, this is going to be a propaganda bonanza for the Kremlin." And, all those who protect the homophobic, journalist stomping, internet suppressor, asshole putin.. at all costs.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/43630_Misleading_AP_Headline_of_the_Day-_No_Link_to_Russian_Govt_in_Plane_Downing

[IDemo]

51. Absense of evidence != evidence of absense

But that, like the curious dismissal of the legitimacy of circumstantial evidence, makes the Bare-Chested One OK.

[Karmadillo]

35. It makes you think not all of the US government is eager to ratchet things up to a fever pitch.

Or maybe the evidence the Russians released yesterday called our bluff? Some of the damning social media evidence ("damning social media evidence"--what a concept) has already seemed to develop holes and who knows exactly what kind of evidence we have left? It's a strange world these days.

[delrem]

44. The whole game is to ratchet it up!

Once ratcheted up, and it's now getting as tight as it gets, the MIC can do ANYTHING and the population will shout with glee. In fact there'll be disappointment if the choice is to quietly ratchet it down.
"Truth" isn't an issue, and in fact the ratcheting up to the Iraq war proved that nothing even resembling the truth is an issue to the MSM/MIC. The issue is to get the population into a perfect frenzy of hate. You don't believe me, then you might well be a "putinista", that is, identifiable with the Emmanuel Goldstein of the moment, identifiable with the target of the hate. Which isn't pleasant.

Much easier to go along for the ride with the neocons, look forward, not back. Just read DU, if you want a demonstration from "the left".

[Jack Rabbit]

47. It should be no surprise that there is no evidence linking Russia to the downing of the jet

Neither is there any evidence that the Frat Boy or the Big Dick knew prior to invading Iraq that Saddam had no WMDs. That doesn't mean they're not responsible for invading Iraq based on information that was not true.

However, if you are simply asking what Putin knew and when, you're asking the wrong question.

The anti-government rebels in Ukraine got the missile launcher from the Russians. There is no other way they could have obtained it. There is no way Putin doesn't know this nor is there a way that supplying the rebels with this kind of equipment was done without Putin's approval, although it may have been deliberately tacit approval.

I do not believe the rebels knowingly fired at a passenger jet. If they didn't know it before, then they certainly know now that it's not good for public relations. The question is how they could have mistaken a passenger jet for a target of any military value. What kind of training did the Russians give to the rebels who operated that missile launcher? Based on what happened, it doesn't appear to have been adequate training.

That was a Russian missile fired from a Russian missile launcher by Russian-backed rebels in a foreign state. The Russians, therefore, are responsible for making certain that those operating the missile launcher knows how to use it. Knowing how to use the equipment encompasses knowing how to tell the difference between a Ukrainian military cargo plane and a Malaysian passenger jet.

The Russian government, and especially Vladimir Putin, cannot escape responsibility for this tragedy. Which side is right and which side is wrong in the overall conflict has nothing to do with 300 passengers and crew members being dead.

Warning to the Russians: next time these fools whose training you neglected fire one of your missiles from one of your launchers, you better make sure it isn't firing at one of your planes. I doubt the Russians would be so concerned about hiding the facts if the downed plane had been an Aeroflot jet.

[Tarheel_Dem]

48. THIS ^^^^^^^^^^

[The Magistrate]

53. Well Said, My Friend

!!

[delrem]

61. Tell that to the USA w.r.t. ISIS. Thank you. nt

[onecaliberal]

52. Just because Russia did pull the trigger

Doesn't mean they didn't give the rebels the weapons. Without possession of those weapons that plane is never shot down. Give these weapons to crazy people, what could possibly go wrong?!?

[Billy Budd]

56. that is why I do not want the Pentagon to have weapons

they are making everything go wrong ...

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl_DKuo5dLhcEPsr7-PPyff_cBmkyYx-r230u2N7R7ylBiNvfRhQ

[delrem]

62. I think it's a GREAT PLAN to give "moderate Syrian rebels" another $500,000,000,

plus training, bases, and moral support. Nothing could be finer.