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IDemo

(16,926 posts)
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:31 AM Jul 2014

2 Ukrainian jet fighters shot down in rebel-held region

Source: USA Today

Two Ukrainian fighter jets were shot down Wednesday in the eastern regions of the country that are controlled by Russian-backed separatists, according to Ukraine's defense ministry.

Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky said the Sukhoi-25 fighters were downed in an area called Savur Mogila, according to the Associated Press and Reuters.

The spokesman said each jet could have been carrying up to two crew members each.

It was the first reported shootdown of a plane over eastern Ukraine since a Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 298 people went down last Thursday, killing everyone aboard. U.S. officials say the Flight MH 17 was apparently brought down by a surface-to-air missile.

Read more: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/07/23/ukraine-rebels-separatists-fighter-jet-shot-down/13034005/

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davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
1. Well that pretty much confirms the fact that they have the weapons to shoot down planes
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:35 AM
Jul 2014

Anyone denying the fact is just plain lying.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
2. Wasn't any doubt about that given it had happened before
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:51 AM
Jul 2014

and I have no recollection of anyone here denying it. Shoulder missiles are sufficient for that purpose.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
4. These were likely mobile AA batteries.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:03 AM
Jul 2014

There was a video yesterday of them transporting them.

https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/status/491691639447228417

Ukraine got greedy, imho, thinking that since MH17 they had free air space over rebel territory. Not so fast. Rebels are desperate given that they are losing huge swaths of territory. They'll use every last bit of equipment Russia has spared.

Don't expect Buk's to be on the playing field though.

Going on 18 straight hours of watching these latest developments. Wow.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
6. A couple of days ago they announced they had Strela...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:38 AM
Jul 2014

I forget the number. Motorized units, not MANPADs.

They acted like it was a big deal and it was new.

They announced the same thing in June. Can't reach the height of the Antonov that was knocked down, nor commercial flights at cruising altitudes.

Sounds like their "father Putin" took away the dangerous toys and left them with toys that they couldn't use to get into trouble. (That's an allusion to the Horlivka mayor's edict, made under DPR duress, that Russian flags be hung all over town with signs that read, "Russia's our mother, Putin's our father". Россия -- мать, Путин -- отец.)

Igel

(35,191 posts)
7. There's some "halving down."
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:45 AM
Jul 2014

Yesterday it was reported that a column of 20 armored vehicles and 24 trucks with fighters/munitions crossed the border into Luhansk oblast.

Today one "activist" who's usually pretty good about his network of informants and amateur stringers said that was a false report, that no tech or fighters crossed the border from the night of 7/21 to 7/22. The situation down near the Marynivka crossing south of Shakhtarsk and Torez was too fluid to say much about--yesterday the rebels triumphantly claimed to have taken Kozhevnya and some other little farming village down there, thus opening the border, today they said that they were forced out by superior force and lost equipment.

This was the area where one Ukr unit said they'd come under real attack by Russian Grad fire yesterday. They said that today they came under "mock attack"--the Russian forces that had pulled up to 200 m from the Ukr border and faced the Ukr units just sat there yesterday, but today they staged a full frontal advance to within one or two dozen meters of the border and just stopped. I can imagine that triggered some phone calls ... and disrupted the lines facing the rebel forces.

No word on what happened with border crossings early morning 7/23. There was some fighting at the border in Luhansk yesterday and it may have made info collecting tough. Or perhaps silence = no crossing.

If true, and reflects a real change in Russian policy, it would be a big improvement. On the other hand, while people say that supplies crossed the border "every night" that was really shorthand for "just about every night."

 

Billy Budd

(310 posts)
8. I see Alqaeda parallels...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:56 AM
Jul 2014

They funded Al-Qaeda, and now they blame the Muslim religion
Even though Bin Laden, was a CIA tactician
They gave him billions of dollars, and they funded his purpose
Fahrenheit 9/11, that's just scratching' the surface

"Bin Laden"
(feat. Mos Def)

LiberalLovinLug

(14,153 posts)
9. Putin should just cut his losses
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:27 AM
Jul 2014

He got the Crimea. Let the Ukraine keep the rest of their country.

And yeah, there is no doubt that without Putin's support, and especially if he would actually block arms to the rebels and denounce their actions, they would soon dry up.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
10. Why fly so low that ZSU 23 or SA-13 can hit you ?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 03:29 PM
Jul 2014
Missiles launched from manpads don’t reach such altitudes,” Lysenko said. “The planes have been shot down at the height of 5,200 meters. Only more powerful missile launchers are capable of doing that...[The planes] were downed professionally, the terrorists don’t have such experts
http://rt.com/news/175084-ukraine-fighter-jets-downed/

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
13. Because Baghdad Bob aka Lysenko wants the missiles to have come from Russia's territory
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 02:11 AM
Jul 2014

Two Ukrainian Su-25 shot down by missiles launched from Russia

Two Su-25 attack aircraft belonging to the Ukrainian anti-terrorist forces, according to initial reports, were shot down from outside the territory of Ukraine, spokesman of the info center of National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine Andriy Lysenko has said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-ukrainian-su-25-shot-down-by-missiles-launched-from-russia-357590.html

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
12. Someone on DU yesterday said the Buk Missiles reach 72,000 feet
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 10:27 PM
Jul 2014

The reason I asked was to find out if a difference in altitude of 33,000 feet and 35,000 feet would mattered

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
15. Propably not much, even the older SA 11 gets to 46.000 feet according to wiki, but it could make a
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 04:08 AM
Jul 2014

difference for a SU-25 trying to reach it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

The Aviationist says 39.400 feet, I don't know where that number comes from.

The Buk, known as SA-11 or SA-17 depending on the variant, is a self-propelled medium range, medium altitude anti-aircraft system with a maximum range of 13NM and a ceiling of 39,400 feet. It uses a semi-active radar homing guidance system: the missile listens to the signal emitted by the ground radar and reflected from the target and points itself towards it.

http://theaviationist.com/2014/07/20/inside-buk-telar-images/



“Records show that the Ukrainian Air Force plane ascended to the distance of 3-5 km from the Malaysian Boeing,” he said. “The Su-25 can fly at altitudes of up to 10 km. It is armed with P-60 air-to-air missiles that can hit targets at a distance of up to 12 km and reliably within 5 km.”

“This is borne out by the video footage obtained by the Rostov monitoring center. We would like to know why the Ukrainian plane was flying along a civilian route on the same flight path as the Malaysian Boeing,” Kartapolov said.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741655


The manufacturer says the ceiling for the Su25 is 7km, but maybe it is possible to reach higher altitudes.
http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su25k/lth/
 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
14. The Dutch should volunteer for some Wild Weasel sorties
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 02:49 AM
Jul 2014

Make these psychos afraid to turn on their new toy.

jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
16. Just a theory again.. Kyiv denies holding Russia responsible for downing two Su-25 warplanes
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 08:59 PM
Jul 2014

Ukraine has not accused Russia of shooting down Ukrainian military planes in the military operation area in the eastern part of the country but only suggested it as one of the theories of the July 23 incident, Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/kyiv-denies-holding-russia-responsible-for-downing-two-su-25-warplanes-357802.html

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