Russia denies its vehicles destroyed in Ukraine

[bemildred]

Source: AP

MOSCOW (AP) -- A spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry has denied reports that Ukrainian forces have destroyed Russian military vehicles that crossed into Ukraine.

Russian news wires on Friday quoted Gen. Maj. Igor Konashenkov as saying that no Russian military convoy has crossed the border as Ukraine has claimed.

NATO also reported the Russian incursion.

The reported Russian incursion came amid a week of drama over a Russian humanitarian aid mission for people in eastern Ukraine caught in the crossfire of fighting between government troops and pro-Russian separatists.

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_UKRAINE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-08-15-13-25-00

---

Getting very strange.

[TwilightGardener]

1. Russia's been sending shit over the border for months.

Also, artillery shells. And new commanders for the failing campaign. But I'm sure they're telling the truth THIS TIME.

[bemildred]

2. All sides in this dispute are fountains of bullshit.

In this case here, a destroyed military column, we should get pictures and eye witness accounts soon, which is what makes it interesting.

[TwilightGardener]

3. I'm curious as to why there are reports that the convoy aid trucks are mostly empty...

WTF? Deliveries of air?

[bemildred]

4. "Fountains of bullshit".

What's interesting here is eventually somebody will be proven wrong.

[TwilightGardener]

6. BBC and CNN reporters are bullshitting us? They're journalists on site.

[Comrade Grumpy]

7. Maybe I missed something, but all I see is "Kiev says."

Can you link to those on-site reports?

[TwilightGardener]

10. ...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28799627

[another_liberal]

15. So what?

There is no American Constitution in Great Britain. They have no First Amendment to protect freedom of the press. Remember what happened to The Guardian's computer hard drives when the government thought they might contain some of Edward Snowden's NSA files?

The British government wants conflict with Russia, so the BBC had better not rock the boat.

[NickB79]

34. "The British government wants conflict with Russia"

Is that so?

Bull. Shit.

[another_liberal]

36. You had better read some of what the P.M. and his Foreign Minister say about Ukraine . . .

It might change your mind:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=British+warn+Russia

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=British+Threaten+Russia

Some of these suggested articles are peripheral to the topic we are discussing, but most are, "Spot on."

[another_liberal]

13. Exactly . . .

The war-mongers want a war, and they have the money to buy off people who will fabricate news stories.

I have never seen it this bad. Syria was not this bad, and neither was operation "Iraqi Freedom." The Western media is bought and paid for this time. Only a few sources still resist the march to war, notably Amy Goodman's "Democracy Now."

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. I'm sorry. I was referring to the reports that a Russian convoy had been attacked and destroyed.

I still haven't seen anything about that other than "Kiev says."

[JackRiddler]

31. Sadly what's most interesting...

is that (usually) no one notices who was proven wrong and even disproven stories are cited as precedents when the same kind of stuff gets repeated by all sides in the next round. Incubator babies and Huns with Belgian infants on bayonets, forever. Transpose as you will to every other national conflict. It can be Greeks and Turks, or Hindus and Muslims...

[Igel]

11. This is a bit of a mystery.

The Russians have a variety of claims. (It's conceivable they're all true, in part. But typically when a flurry of solutions present themselves it means that the real one's unsaid.)

It was done to provide greater fuel efficiency.

It was done just in case one or more trucks broke down, to ensure that there was room for the cargo to be reloaded on other trucks.

It was done to make all the trucks have about the same mass, so they'd all need refueling at the same time.


Oddly, the trucks I've seen have usually just had canvas tarps on the back to keep cargo from escaping, with nothing holding down the cargo inside. I assume there were some strapping to keep the cargo in place.

However, there's the 24+ hour stopover in Voronezh that really lacks explanation. The crossing at Ivaryne hasn't changed its status for quite for over a week. No real fighting there for a few days. Why the stopover?

And the trucks were at Donetsk for a day or so before reporters got to peek in them.

Was something possibly offloaded? After all the convoy was sent off towards a rebel-held checkpoint and stopped just about the time that the ICRC said a general list of contents wasn't enough. They needed specifics. Then again, I'm a Russia-watcher for a long, long time, and have gotten fairly jaded with the perpetual response of Russia to deny and obfuscate things even past the point where there's all the necessary proof for something beyond a reasonable doubt.

[TwilightGardener]

14. Since there would be so much scrutiny, it's hard to believe they'd be dumb enough

to seriously put military-related supplies into these trucks. But if they were offloaded when it became clear there were going to be a lot of eyes watching, that makes sense. They'd have been better off at least half-filling the trucks with food/water/formula/diapers, etc.--would have given Russia a PR boost among the intended aid recipients (which are the very same people Putin had hoped would join the separatist movement).

[Fred Sanders]

16. Fountains of bullshit are erupting all over the planet.

[cosmicone]

5. Ukraine is stupid to stop humanitarian aid.

It will be a much smaller Ukraine if they continue - run by Svoboda and Right Sektor - and Tsar Poroshenko.

EU has no appetite to fight and the US has toned down the rhetoric - showing no appetite for a fight either.

Everyone knows the humanitarian aid is needed and Ukraine is appearing more and more as a spoiled brat.

[pampango]

8. I believe that Ukraine has said that it welcomes aid.

They seem to have reservations about uninspected aid coming from Russia. I suppose Syria would have reservations about uninspected aid convoys coming from Israel or the US. That does not mean that Syria does not want aid. They just want aid that is really aid. International aid going into Syria is run by the UN and the Red Cross and they have a brutal civil war going on there.

You are right. Ukraine will be much smaller soon, if that is what Putin wants. No other country will go to war with Russia over Ukraine. (The European historical analogies are there.) Of course, if Putin takes part of Ukraine, and it joins Russia as Crimea did, he has created what he allegedly wanted to avoid - NATO right on the border of Russia. (The remnant of Ukraine would have little reason not to join NATO at that point.)

[TwilightGardener]

12. They don't want to stop humanitarian aid. They also don't want Russia resupplying

the separatists under the guise of aid for civilians.

[NutmegYankee]

33. The Ukraine wants to ensure the humanitarian aid is actually foodstuffs and civilian supplies.

I suspect given Russia's reaction to the request that the "flour" comes in little brass containers with 7.62 mm diameter lead stoppers...

[NickB79]

35. Russia is stupid for preventing the Int. Red Cross from overseeing the operation

The aid is being held up because the Russians, for some strange, vague reason, won't let the Red Cross supervise the distribution of the "aid" in the back of these trucks.

I wonder why that is?

[DonViejo]

9. Earlier today, I was listening to one of two NPR stations in my area...

this one broadcasts BBC news, not the usual NPR American based news. The BBC reporter was live and told how he had inspected some of the trucks, (any trucks he wanted to inspect) there were no weapons/ammo, etc., in the trucks, rather, they contained food and water (bottled). The reporter went on to say the Russian and Ukraine governments had agreed to allow the convoy to cross the border and unload the supplies on to Ukraine trucks. The border crossing was suppose to occur later today/tomorrow

[Fred Sanders]

17. The Russian military is fully capable of smuggling arms into its bordering states without all this.

[DonViejo]

19. If you noticed, I didn't make a judgement on the reliability or accuracy of the

information provided in the BBC report.

[bemildred]

18. I see multiple incompatible narratives being pushed by various unreliable narrators.

If I understand the dim gardener up there, he wants me to believe things because CNN or BBC says so. Whereas I always assume they are pushing their respective government's views, as any sensible and observant person must.

[Xolodno]

20. Hired Mercs?

Stelkov recently resigned....and the war may be winding down. Maybe they went in to evac some of the mercenaries and sympathizers.

News media and some here are going to cheer that Putin got a bloody nose. And chased him out of Ukraine preventing him from acquiring the east. I don't believe it was ever his goal to take eastern Ukraine. He could have taken that shortly after he took Crimea.

The real issue is next. You have a humanitarian crisis. Refugee's on Russia's side of the border and they don't trust Kiev. Some Ukrainian troops under Russian control after they crossed the border. Cities that are virtually destroyed and need to rebuilt, and are going to need Russian aid. Add insult to injury, energy prices. All this gives Putin leverage in negotiations for whatever he wants. Which I'm sure includes no joining NATO at the least and Ukraine's recognition of Crimea's annexation at best.

[bemildred]

22. I dunno.

I find the Russian government operatives and ill-paid volunteers stories both plausible. Might be both. That is my working theory.

I concur that Putin would have taken the East at once if he was intending to take it at all. Said so some time back. He did not procrastinate in Crimea. But he is a cautious player, from what I can see, he knows the weakness of his position, so I don't think he considered taking more than Crimea for long. But he poked a stick in there with the NoviRussiya comment.

I think it will be a mess, stay a mess. The departure of the "outside" leadership seems a good thing, and an end to the civil war would be nice, but I don't expect that will happen. I expect guerilla war. In any case we shall see just how much in the way of native resistance to the Kiev government there really is.

And that could be a real pain in the ass for Putin, continued unrest on the border, but on the other hand I don't see him doing any favors to the Kiev govenrment while the relationship remains antagonisitic, and I don't see how Ukraine gets stabilized again without acitve Russian involvement.

So yeah, a mess.

[KoKo]

23. This makes sense. Why would Putin want Ukraine with it's financial problems....

He doesn't need this and Russia has said it would like to see an autonomous Federalized Ukraine. I think it's exactly as you say that he wants Crimea recognized and assurances (written in blood) that NATO will stay out of Ukraine and the remaining former Soviet Union satellite states on Russia's border.

If one gets news from many sources that was his goal. And, Putin didn't start this. Nuland and McCain and the usual Neocon War Hawks started this mess by giving support to overthrow of elected Ukrainian Government. More "Regime Change" by the usual suspects.

[Sunlei]

24. I think the defense alliance saw the“incursion” into Ukraine and Ukr. got most of them.

Russia may as well deliver the 'aid' in the mostly empty white trucks. Just remember there is a very good defense alliance watching every move.

[KoKo]

25. Is this going to be like the reporting of the 40,000 Yazidi's trapped on the Mountain?

How could there be so many MSM news sites (including Bloomberg Business) reporting that armored convoy was destroyed...and then have Russia deny it? Something doesn't add up...

[bemildred]

26. The fog of war, confirmation bias, it's not that unusual. nt

[KoKo]

27. Bloomberg Business News has Video up about the "Parsing of Language"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-15/ukraine-says-it-destroyed-part-of-armed-vehicles-from-russia.html

There's a contortionist report that Ukraine is now saying that it was "Separatists in Russian Military Vehicles...and not Russians in Russian Military Vehicles"


And, the market dived 100 points on language parsing? Wonder who raked in the big bucks on that news and who lost on that trade.

[dipsydoodle]

28. NATO also reported........

They got that from the UK press.

[bemildred]

29. Yep.

And considerable uncertainty as to how much of what, exactly, got blown up. It all seems to go back to that "border crossing" incident.

[bemildred]

30. Donetsk rebel leader appeals for Russian aid

Donetsk (Ukraine) (AFP) - The head of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, said Friday that the inhabitants desperately need Russian humanitarian aid and accused Ukraine of deliberately stalling its arrival.

"At the moment, the Donetsk people's republic has a very bad humanitarian situation and the help that Russia is sending us and we have still not received, we just need it like air," Zakharchenko said at a briefing in Donetsk.

The aid is needed by "the wounded, the sick, the military," said the steely-eyed leader in military khakis who took the post of "prime-minister" last week after the former rebel leader Alexander Borodai quit.

The rebel republic has seen some leadership changes recently, with even the influential commander Igor Strelkov suddenly disappearing from top ranks.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/24731819/

[TwilightGardener]

37. "The aid is needed by the wounded, the sick, the MILITARY..."

Their new leader sounds pretty dumb--did he just admit that this aid is for the rebels? Why would Ukraine allow the "aid" in so that these goons can resupply and keep fighting? Where'd that Strelkov dude go? What kind of circus is Putin running here?

[bemildred]

38. Ukraine crisis: Rebel leader says Russian arms on way

A rebel leader in eastern Ukraine has said a convoy of military hardware is on its way to the region from Russia.

Alexander Zakharchenko, self-proclaimed PM of the Donetsk rebel area, said on Friday 150 vehicles and 1,200 personnel were approaching their border.

Russia has denied claims by Ukraine and Western reporters that military aid to the rebels is crossing over.

Meanwhile a controversial humanitarian aid convoy from Russia is stalled on the Russian side of the border.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28817347

[reorg]

43. False translation

The BBC have corrected their article and (sort of) apologised:

An earlier mistranslation of his words suggested Mr Zakharchenko had said the vehicles were on their way from Russia.

One has to wonder why the BBC put this "mistranslation" right into the headline and in addition to that twice into their article. It's in the first line and in the second line. But Mr Zakharchenko had only stated that the militants had "reserves" of 30 tanks and 120 other military vehicles.

Mr Zakharchenko also didn't say that 1200 Russians (or other foreign nationals) were being brought in over the border, he only mentioned that 1200 of his forces were TRAINED for four months on the territory of the Russian Federation.

Other media outlets such as Deutsche Welle apparently also "mistranslated". Or perhaps these state-financed media outlets just rely on each other's false translations?

Well, the misinformation has now been corrected, here is the BBC article's edit history:

http://newsdiffs.org/article-history/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28817347

Changed BBC article:

Ukraine crisis: Rebel fighters 'trained in Russia'

The new rebel leader in east Ukraine's Donetsk region has said his forces include 1,200 fighters who underwent military training in Russia.

Addressing a meeting, Alexander Zakharchenko said the fighters had trained "four months on the territory of the Russian Federation".

The rebels, he said, had reserves of 150 combat vehicles, including tanks.

An earlier mistranslation of his words suggested Mr Zakharchenko had said the vehicles were on their way from Russia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28817347

[bemildred]

44. I was just pointing out that it wasn't some sort of slip.

I have long since become used to the fact that Western media are prone to exaggeration and mis-translation, if not outright lying, when the interests of Western governments are in play.

I am interested to see if Mr. Zakharchenko is a better commander than the fellows he replaced.

[dipsydoodle]

32. Russia Deploys Mobile Border Guard Teams to Border With Ukraine – FSB

MOSCOW, August 15 (RIA Novosti) – Russia has deployed mobile teams of border guards to the vicinity of the border with Ukraine, but they are to operate strictly on the Russian side, a spokesman for Russia’s FSB Border Guard Service said Friday.

The spokesman said that residents of the border territories are under threat due to increased numbers of Ukrainian servicemen crossing into Russia and frequent cross-border shelling.

“They [border guard groups] are operating solely on the territory of Russia. In this regard, the reports about a group of Russian servicemen crossing the Russian-Ukrainian border are completely untrue,” the spokesman said.

On Thursday, a number of foreign news agencies reported that a convoy of military vehicles with Russian license plates crossed into Ukraine via the Izvarino border checkpoint. Earlier on Friday, the UNN information agency, citing the Anti-Terrorist Center operating under the Security Service of Ukraine, reported that the reports had been confirmed. According to preliminary accounts of the alleged incident, the vehicles were carrying armed servicemen.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140815/192038090/Russia-Deploys-Mobile-Border-Guard-Teams-to-Border-With-Ukraine-.html

[dipsydoodle]

39. US unable to verify claim.

.

[candelista]

40. I can't verify it either.

The WSJ has a recent story on it here:

http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-officials-start-inspection-of-russian-convoy-1408092018

But it's not a confirmation.

Meanwhile, Ukraine officials are "inspecting" the aid trucks, and demanding that only the driver and a Ukraine-picked observer ride in the trucks into Ukraine. Would they be doing that if they had just "destroyed" a Russian military convoy? Unlikely.

[Sunlei]

41. funny what street view shows in russia near ukraines border.

https://www.google.com/maps/@50.749665,37.40715,3a,75y,338.05h,86.35t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sFZJNfK8DN5iQVFjMj_ca7A!2e0

I bet the defense alliance has a LOT better view and a live view.

edit post if you want to see the truck filled with chickens you may have to copy paste the whole link or the location in your google maps

[dipsydoodle]

42. Well it would seem to me

that should be of more interest to your administration given I give somewhat less than a fuck on the subject..

I simply reiterated world news on the subject.

[bemildred]

45. Rebels down Ukrainian warplane as military equipment ‘arrives from Russia’

Last edited Sun Aug 17, 2014, 09:35 AM - Edit history (1)

Pro-Russian separatists shot down a Ukrainian warplane in eastern Ukraine overnight into Sunday, a military spokesman said, amid claims Russian military equipment has been seen coming into the country from across the border.

Meanwhile at least 10 civilians were killed in fighting involving artillery and mortar in the rebel-held city of Donetsk, local authorities said.

The renewed fighting, which followed a claim by rebels that they were receiving fresh stocks of heavy military equipment from Russia and 1,200 fighters, cast a shadow over a high-level international meeting in Berlin involving Russia and Ukraine.

The four-month conflict in Ukraine’s Russian-speaking east has reached a critical phase, with Kiev and Western governments watching nervously to see if Russia will intervene in support of the increasingly besieged rebels - something denied by Moscow.

http://www.france24.com/en/20140817-rebels-shoot-down-ukraine-warplane-military-arrives-russia/

[bemildred]

46. Ukraine says its forces take police station in Luhansk, raise national flag

KIEV, Aug 17 (Reuters) - Ukrainian government forces have taken a police station in Luhansk, a city on the border with Russia which has been under the control of pro-Russian separatists since April, and raised the Ukrainian flag there, a military spokesman said on Sunday.

The spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, also told journalists that fresh Russian military equipment has been seen coming into the country from Russia in the past 24 hours, including three Grad missile system. Russian drones had violated Ukrainian air space on 10 occasions, Lysenko added. (Reporting by Natalia Zinets; Writing By Richard Balmforth; Editing by Christian Lowe)

http://www.trust.org/item/20140817095922-ttvjz/