Ukraine Warns of Europe’s Worst Conflict Since World War II
Source: Bloomberg
Sep 1, 2014 12:30 PM ET
Ukraine said it will take on Russia’s “full-scale invasion” of the Donbas region in a shift away from an offensive against insurgents, a showdown that threatens Europe with its bloodiest conflict in seven decades.
“A great war came to our home, one that Europe hasn’t seen since the time of the Second World War,” Ukrainian Defense Minister Valeriy Geletey said on Facebook. “We must urgently build up defenses against Russia, which is trying to not only consolidate the territories previously occupied by the terrorists, but also to advance to other areas in Ukraine.”
Ukraine and its allies in the U.S. and Europe are accusing Russia of dispatching troops and backing militias to open a new front near the Sea of Azov in southeastern Ukraine last week. Meanwhile, representatives from Russia, Ukraine, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and the separatists met in the Belarusian capital Minsk for the latest international consultations aimed at restoring peace. Russia has repeatedly denied involvement in the unrest.
Regular Russian troops are replacing insurgent forces in Ukraine, with about 1,600 soldiers advancing into the region, according to the government in Kiev. The ruble slid to a record against the dollar for a second day as the intensified conflict raised the likelihood that Russia will face wider European Union sanctions.
Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-31/ukraine-vessels-attacked-as-new-eu-russia-sanctions-loom.html
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Purveyor
(29,876 posts)By Patrick Donahue and Arne Delfs Sep 1, 2014 11:03 AM ET
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said the European Union will press ahead with tougher sanctions against Russia as evidence mounts that President Vladimir Putin is behind “attacks” on Ukraine.
“It’s become ever clearer that, from the beginning, this hasn’t been about a conflict within Ukraine, but a conflict between Russia and Ukraine,” Merkel told German lawmakers today in the lower house of parliament in Berlin.
The remarks underscore the German leader’s growing exasperation with the escalating conflict and her government’s more assertive role in seeking to resolve it as Russian soldiers continue an incursion into Ukrainian territory.
Merkel was among EU leaders over the weekend who said further measures against Russia are necessary, and gave the European Commission a week to deliver proposals for sanctions that may target Russia’s energy and finance industries.
Addressing the risks involved for Europe’s largest economy should measures against Russia harden, Merkel said Germany is prepared for any economic fallout from the actions.
more...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-01/merkel-says-europe-won-t-allow-russia-attack-on-ukraine.html
Igel
(35,356 posts)And in saying she won't allow it, she's ruled out any substantive help to resist the current attack.
By showing that her attitude is all bluff and no action, the "wait and see what they do" pattern is satisfied. "We don't fight and we can get the Crimea. We help with subversion ... no response. We send in small arms and money ... no response. We send in larger arms ... a local response, but we can handle that. We shell across the border ... no response. We violate sovereignty openly ... no response. We send in troops ... no response. We start bombing missions ... no response."
One waits for the next steps. "We take additional territory ... no response. We continue to take territory ... no response." What you find is that the only country calling any shots is Russia and, to the extent possible, Ukraine.
Ukraine, however, keeps playing the same stupid game. "In order to avoid bloodshed, will we let them dig in before we attack. Then we will stop attacking and let them collect their forces. Then we will slow-go numerous actions so that they can take counter measures. Then we will pause, so they can resupply. Then we will complain but let facts on the ground develop as they develop."
Ukraine is trying to make Europe like it. That's fine, but in the end Europe will let Ukraine get squashed and Europe will wring its hands and say, "But, but, we wanted peace! We don't understand! It's wrong! Russia, you're going to pay!" Then a few weeks later, "Um ... let's work out a trade now that all that unpleasantness ... what was it over? Ukrainian milk products? ... is over and done with. Maybe we can meet in Yalta? The last deal there worked out clearly in everybody's favor and ensured liberty and human rights for all involved. Isn't that in Crimea? No? Maybe we can take a trip to the Crimea, see the sights."
Igel
Even if Merkel and Germany said it would not tolerate any land grab from the russians over Ukraine - Germany would put boot on the grounds - mostly because of their own bloody history when it came to Ukraine - And Merkel is rather well in the know about Germany's history when it come to Ukraine - and the most of Eastern Europe - just 80 years ago Germany invaded Poland - and started World War two - a ghost who every german political of format know about - and I am pretty sure Merkel know rather well about how Russians would react - if Germany was to put soldiers on the ground in Ukraine - even if it was to sort out some form of peace between east and west Ukraine...
When someone want to make Europe - or Germany to do more - to "do their share of the job" someone need to remember the close history of Europe - Even if World War two is sometime ago - it is still something on the forefront on many peoples memories - when Germany and military force is named in the same sentence - and Germany is rather keen about their own history - and the unwillingness to force the issue - you could se that in the former Yugoslavia - where Germany was rather reculant to even put soldiers on the ground - and many in Europe was rather unsure if Germany was to "unleash hell" in the former parts of Yugoslavia.. Thankfully it never happened- as the germans was rather clear in their mission - and was not willing to provoke anything from the civilians - who was trying their limits - in fact Germany was after a while seen as a very disciplined force to make sure some form of peace was archived in the areas where Germany had soldiers stationed....
If NATO - and therefore Germany was to put boots on the ground in Ukraine - it would be seen as some provocation - who the russians would really rally about - if you think most of what Putin is talking about is a bluff - and is shown as a form of playing "strongman" then you have not seen anything yet... And even the right sector in Kiev - would understand that putting german soldiers on the ground in Ukraine - would not be the smartest thing to do - mostly because it would be some blow back from the russians - and I suspect that would give Russia all the justification they need - to invade most of Ukraine - maybe even treated Kiev military so to say.... The Russian Army have yet to show the same strength as the old Red Army who was feared in most of the world - but the russian army of today is still capable of making war - and to continue a war in Ukraine for a long time - and it have the time of their side - as NATO have no interest of a long war over Ukraine... In fact I doubt NATO have any interest of going to war over Ukraine at all - even if the political leadership play it hard - as the outgoing secretary general have doing it - he know - and the rest of the EU/NATO know - Ukraine is just not worth a war - and they all hope Putin is bluffing - as they do - and is more inclined to make peace - where some form of peace is solving the issue - maybe even let the eastern part of Ukraine getting to Russia - as a part of solving peace - even if it would not be the end of Putin's plans for Ukraine... NATO and EU have for all its rhetoric no interest in war - they know - or should know the last century far better than others - and the risk of starting a fire is devastating enough.... A fire who we have no clue where could end for the record... Last time someone lit the match - it burned out after a decade of devastating war in Yugoslavia - and it is still very much in the forefront as most of the republics is still very much harmed - and divested by that war...
Diclotican
heaven05
(18,124 posts)into a world war, I think. Call me CT or paranoid, but something is amiss in this whole situation. Can't put my finger on it, but too much "imperialist" interference from both sides and the fascist are obvious in their intent with their 'brown shirt' beatings and killings at the behest of whom? Just a laymen with questions that grow and grow............
Bragi
(7,650 posts)So do NATO bureaucrats. The big players need to rein them in or we'll have a war no-one else wants.
msongs
(67,441 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)wants to get stepped on. Nice victim-blaming.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)While Russia's economy was slow to pick up (first disaster capitalism run), it will be running at 4-7% growth if not for interference. Russia is also building a collation to eventually create more compeditive currency situations. Just created BRICS. The dollar is on very weak ground as we basically get free goods and our trading partners get electronic digits. Good deal, but it relies on a monopoly as the worlds primary currency. That makes it's future tenuous.
Russia also has basically one of (if not the largest) the worlds largest area of untapped and unexplored land. So weaken Russia in hopes of destroying it's capacity to create alternate trade markets and provide rock bottom prices for the multinationals.
In the process solidify economic imperialism.
And of course more military guaranteed power and money for the MIC.
Heady proposition, but they are risking a serious incident to do it.
Unvanguard
(4,588 posts)Bragi
(7,650 posts)In doing everything possible to trigger a global war, the unelected Kiev government appears to lack any grasp of reality.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)In 8 weeks, on October 26, there are – supposed to be – parliamentary elections in Ukraine. What’s that going to look like? Who’s going to vote? In the presidential elections a few months ago, most of east Ukraine did not vote. How many different ways are there to define democracy and still remain credible?
In an interview today on Russian Channel 1, Vladimir Putin commented on the upcoming elections: “All the participants in the electoral race will want to show how cool they are; Everyone will want to show they are strongmen or strongwomen, and as the political struggle sharpens it is hard to expect anyone to seek a peaceful resolution and not a military one.” That would seem to be an accurate prediction.
The EU yesterday (in yet another definition of democracy) picked its new president. They chose Polish PM Donald Tusk, which may seem a bit strange since Tusk doesn’t speak a word of either English or French, and he comes from a nation that is not even in the Eurozone, yet he will now now get to chair meetings that concern the euro. But Tusk is a hawk on Russia, and therefore suspiciously convenient to the inner core of Washington and Brussels’ control apparatus. He’s said more bad and ugly things about Russia and Putin than just about anyone recently, and that’s saying something.
The US and EU have worked for years to see their desire to take over Ukraine come to fruition. They’ve come a long way, but they wanted Crimea and the Donbass region most of all, and those they still don’t have. Still, they’ve so far shown themselves more than willing to assist first in killing thousands of eastern Ukrainians to get what they want, and now they are prepared to start a war over it.
http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article47139.html
bemildred
(90,061 posts)MOSCOW — Russian officials pressed Ukraine on Monday to declare a cease-fire with separatists, but Ukrainians say they are locked in a war not just against the rebels but also against Russia — on behalf of Europe.
“A great war has come, the likes of which Europe has not seen since the Second World War,” Ukrainian Defense Minister Valeriy Heletey said on his Facebook page Monday, adding that Ukraine must keep fighting and “show that Ukrainians are not going to give up.”
Lost territory, trapped soldiers, and increasing reports of Russian tanks and troops operating in eastern Ukraine have changed the course of events in the past few days. Newly emboldened rebel forces are bearing down on strategic targets, such as the port city of Mariupol — which the Ukrainian military maintains it can defend — and the airport in Luhansk, where troops retreated in the face of a rebel onslaught Monday.
Ukraine and Western allies have surmised that the pro-Russian separatists are not acting alone and that Russian forces are providing significant assistance.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-talks-about-statehood-for-eastern-ukraine/2014/09/01/d5c9d570-31a8-11e4-9e92-0899b306bbea_story.html
Bragi
(7,650 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)It is not a pretty picture.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)before judging...
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Both sides ask for the moon and then work it down. But this seems like it pretty much shut down any possibility.
But there is a pattern here. Poroshenko has done this every time. He claims to be interested in peace and resolution and then doesn't even pretend to follow through.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Amazing how the elite will just sell out their own countrymen as fodder.
This is a huge moment. What is Russia supposed to do? Even if he did have troops in Ukraine if he pulls them now they will just continue to accuse him anyway.. this is now a personal thing I think as well.
NATO is building up armies. So he is being forced to really react. How can he have any confidence that the west won't continue the game no matter what he does?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)corridor out for the surrounded troops.
This is how the Rebels have been getting their weapons though. They have done this at least 4 times that I know of. But for heavens sakes play the soldiers as pawns?
hundreds of Ukrainian troops have been trapped for more than a week. Russian officials have accused Kiev of not taking advantage of the separatists’ offer to let the troops out via a humanitarian corridor, in exchange for disarming.
Only the troops fleeing need to disarm, if anyone is confused, not the entire Ukrainian army.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)bemildred
It is scary rhetoric - mostly because it the same rhetoric Hitler used - to describe his war in Russia between 1941-45 - a war for Europe - against the evilness of Russia - a war Hitler had planned all the time back in his Main Kampf - written between 1924/25 - and who was some of a "Bible" for nazism in the 1930s and 1940s - and still are for some - even if most of the neo-nazism properly do not know to much about Main Kampf at is is...
The whole thing is a horrible, scary mess - who I doubt anyone have the full control over anymore - I doubt the political leaders in NATO/EU have control over it - and I doubt Russia have any real control over it longer - it have a lot of dynamic of it own - dynamics who no one really know how to control anymore...
Dicloticna
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Mediocre politicans and loudmouth political hucksters selling fear and violence as a "solution". And I think they will all regret it.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)bemildred
If not everyone are not stepping back a few meters - to let the other side have the same possibility - I'm afraid we all will have to regret the flustering and political loudmouth it seem to be the norm on the public stage this days...
I do hope - the next secretary general of Nato (Who by the way in his young years was dead against NATO - and also was prime minister of Norway for many years - the conservatives won the election last year and he was elected general secretary of NATO that fall) Is able to sit down with its russian counterparts - and sort this mess out somehow... Norway have great diplomatic skills when it came to solving issues with Russia - and somehow I suspect diplomats is needed to sort it out this time - not political blustering about sanctions and power play - what we need now is all the diplomatic skills of the world - to make sure it is not going anymore hotter - it is worse enough as it is with all this blustering and treat of hard sanctions - and the possibility of even war over Ukraine... To many who have never seen a war - is pushing for a war even if a war in Ukraine - with Russia would spill over all of Europe - from all the way down and east to Turkey... I suspect we are on a crossroad now - at this moment of time - where we can choose between war and peace - to either solve the problem in Ukraine - where both sides are not loosing face - or risk a war in Ukraine that would tear that country apart - and destroy any possibility of co-operation between NATO and Russia for a generation... That is what is at stake here...
On the other hand - Putins powerplay when it come to Ukraine is also something to reqonize - he is a person who have great ambitions of making sure Russia is a reqonized state - and not any joke as it was in the 1990s - Russia is a country who was hurt badly by the neo-con ideology of freemarket powers in the 1990s - and it devestated a population who is proud - and who was once part of a great superpower.... Its like if US had dis-integrated into a few smaller states after the end of the cold war - the bruses of that dis-integration would have been felt for many years as the different countries had to pick up where US once was.. And many russians feel they have a lot to revange when it come to how the west (as they see it) have devestated the proud russian soul... The small states in Caucasus was a small stepping stone - to at least show that the russian army was able to do something - if Putin is able to conquer at least the eastern part of Ukraine - with most of its industry intact - withouth to mutch loss - it would make sure Putin would be seen as a great leader - a man who is able to confront the West - and win what was once Russia back to the motherland (so to speak) If Putin is smart - he would stop there - but Im afraid he is not - it is other parts of the old empire who aslo should be part of the new emerging Russia - like the baltic states - who also happend to be a member of NATO - with large russian minorities - who could be used to exuse a lot of things in the future... Neither the politcy the baltic states have had when it come to their russian minorities - have been stellar - something many have pointed out before they was able to be member of the alliance... All tree baltic states have some bones to pick with Russia about how they are been treated - both before World War two - where Russia occupied the tree contries - thanks to the secret treaties between Molotov and Ribentrop - and then when World War was coming to Russia - ended up for a few years in german hands - before ending up in Soviet hands again - and the punishment for the world war was rather swift and brutal for many balts - summary arrested - and put on catle carts to Sibira - or to the north of Russia in the mist of a cold winter.... And most of them was not able to travel back to the baltic before Stalin was dead - even if they was found not gulilty of any crime against Russia...
Diclotican
MattSh
(3,714 posts)Ukraine has yet to back up any of it's "cry wolf" stories with photos or videos.
Bragi
(7,650 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)MattSh
(3,714 posts)Maxim Dondyuk, a freelance photographer who was working in Slovyansk principally for the Russian newsmagazine Russian Reporter, said that he had taken the group photograph there and posted it on his Instagram account.
“It was taken in Slovyansk,” he said in a telephone interview. “Nobody asked my permission to use this photograph.”
Jen Psaki, a State Department spokeswoman, acknowledged that the assertion that the photograph in the American briefing materials had been taken in Russia was incorrect. But she said that the photograph was included in a “draft version” of a briefing packet and that the information has since been corrected. This photograph, she said, was not among those presented by Mr. Kerry in Geneva.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/23/world/europe/scrutiny-over-photos-said-to-tie-russia-units-to-ukraine.html?_r=0
AND
Thanks for joining us, Robert.
ROBERT PARRY, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST AND AUTHOR: Thanks for having me.
WORONCZUK: So, Robert, The New York Times reported that the Ukrainian government had proof that Russian soldiers were behind the takeover of government buildings in Eastern Ukraine. They released these photos to prove that Russia was behind these takeovers despite Russia’s denial of involvement. Now The Times is backpedaling and saying that the photographs they printed were coming under scrutiny. What do you think is the significance of their retraction?
PARRY: Well, it’s always interesting when The New York Times goes with a front page story, a lead piece on Monday citing these photographs as evidence, the sort of slam dunk evidence that Russian troops had gone into Ukraine and were essentially instigating this uprising in these ten cities in Eastern Ukraine. The New York Times presented these photographs but apparently never really checked them out.
The photographs themselves really didn’t prove much. They basically–even if you were to accept them at face value, there are other explanations for why people might be in one place or another beyond the fact that they were sent there by the Kremlin.
But as it turned out, a key photograph that The Times used, one a group photograph which The Times claimed had been taken in Russia, and then these same–some of the same fighters show up in Eastern Ukraine, that was presented as a key piece of evidence that these folks were from Russia and were participating in the Eastern Ukrainian uprising. But it turned out that the photograph was actually taken by a freelance photographer in Eastern Ukraine. So the whole basis of The Times’ story collapses, because these folks were not photographed in Russia, they were photographed in Eastern Ukraine. And that’s what The Times was forced to retract today.
WORONCZUK: Well, you’ve worked at newspapers before, and you’ve see that often they have to run corrections because they don’t always get the story right. Couldn’t some argue that this is just one of those instances?
http://www.4thmedia.org/2014/04/evidence-for-russian-involvement-in-east-ukraine-based-on-corporate-medias-shoddy-journalism/
Any time you see "Ukraine claims" it's most likely a lie.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,198 posts)So said Putin, until he didn't.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)---
For Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite, Moscow is on a war footing: “I think the situation is worsening. Russia is openly and directly involved in, and is at stage of war against Ukraine and it is clear. That means against a country who wants to be closer to Europe, that means Russia is practically in war against Europe.”
For the moment, however, there’s widespread disagreement over how best to respond to Russia. Germany’s Chancellor Angela Merkel believes tougher sanctions must be given time to bite, rather than military action.
“I personally think that for Germany the supply of weapons is not appropriate and my interpretation of why we don’t want to do this goes along with this, by this I mean there is no military solution to this conflict,” said Merkel
But on the other side of the Atlantic, some fear that sanctions will ultimately prove pointless because President Putin enjoys widespread support.
http://www.euronews.com/2014/09/01/europe-under-pressure-to-take-military-action-in-ukraine/
roamer65
(36,747 posts)Let's start another global war.
NOT!
Nihil
(13,508 posts)
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)And just a one-word reminder for everyone concerned about territorial integrity of states: Kosovo.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)than the Kosovars.
Igel
(35,356 posts)Especially the Serbian fascists fighting around Donetsk.
If you can't massacre Muslims, massacre their defenders.
reorg
(3,317 posts)While it is probably true that one Nazi militia after the other are being decimated, it's news to me that they were defenders of Muslims. Or are you suggesting that "massacred" along them were US mercenaries that already had participated in the ethnic cleansing of Croatia and been training the KLA?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)They are boxing Russia into a corner, when Russia has really not done anything we would not do in similar circumstances. The propaganda has been relentless and the communication as bad as I have ever seen it.
If Russia feels like this is about talking them down they will resist, and I really believe they see this as a direct threat.
Also, unlike during the first cold war, nuclear "pre-emptive" strikes are no longer unthinkable.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The European Union could ban gas exports and limit industrial use in emergency measures to protect household energy supplies this winter, a source said, as it braces for a possible halt in Russian gas as a result of the Ukraine crisis.
Russia is Europe’s biggest supplier of oil, coal and natural gas, and its pipelines through Ukraine are the subject of political manoeuvring – not for the first time – as Europe and Moscow clash over Russian military action in Ukraine.
While buyers of oil and coal can find new suppliers relatively quickly, southeast Europe receives most of its gas from Kremlin-controlled Gazprom.
Tankers from Qatar and Algeria bring liquefied natural gas (LNG) to Europe via ports along the Atlantic and Mediterranean, but European buyers often resell those cargoes abroad for higher prices rather than supplying their own domestic market.
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/energy-and-resources/europe-drafts-emergency-energy-plan-with-eye-on-russia-gas-shut-down-1.1914590
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This is madness!
