China's military secrecy justifies surveillance flights - U.S. official

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Reuters

China's military secrecy justifies surveillance flights - U.S. official
By David Brunnstrom
WASHINGTON Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:22am BST


(Reuters) - The United States is justified in carrying out surveillance flights in East Asia, in spite of Chinese objections, given a lack of transparency in China's military buildup, a senior U.S. official said on Friday.

Beijing called last month for the United States to cut back, or even stop, close surveillance by patrol aircraft if it seriously sought to repair damaged bilateral ties.

The request followed an Aug. 19 incident in which Washington said a Chinese jet flew dangerously close to a U.S. navy P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine and reconnaissance plane operating in international waters southeast of the Chinese island of Hainan.

Asked about the Chinese call to scale back such flights, Assistant Secretary of State Daniel Russel, the senior U.S. diplomat for East Asia, pointed to China's big military buildup in recent years and the secrecy surrounding it.


Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/09/13/uk-usa-china-surveillance-idUKKBN0H72L220140913?rpc=401

[merrily]

1. Thank heaven, our own military is an open book.

Thanks, Judi, for continuing to try to bring me an international viewpoint.

[JDPriestly]

10. Actually, our military is an open book compared to that of some other countries.

People from China are free to travel in the US from what I can tell in California. They can observe our military aircraft flying over our country with no problem, photograph what they can see and that is saying a lot. They can take pictures, whenever and pretty much of whatever they see while here. Yet they are secretive about what goes on in their own country?

I don't think that our military is out of place in their surveillance of the Chinese. We have a right to know, the world has a right to know about military build-ups wherever they occur in the world. It isn't hard to know what we are doing. We announce a lot of our build-ups, and others can be easily observed with the technology that other major powers have

The Chinese are out of place in complaining about this. Openness in terms of military preparedness is a good thing. Countries should be encouraged to be open about their military maneuvers. Secrecy is needed with regard to some things such as the development of new technology. But major military exercises and maneuvers should be fairly transparent.

I don't think we or any other major country wants to be surprised by a military attack. A certain amount of transparency promotes peace.

[merrily]

13. We can know anything our military doesn't mind our knowing.

And we don't know what we don't know. That's the beauty of secrecy.

[JDPriestly]

15. And that is as it should be.

The Chinese are just as capable and possibly even more astute at military intelligence as we are. I don't think that our observation of Chinese military movements is a threat to China. More likely Chinese secrecy is a threat to the peace in the world -- and an invitation to more and more surveillance. A threat that is known can be dealt with peacefully in many cases. A threat that is unknown can be incorrectly estimated or measured and be viewed as an even greater threat than it is.

Too much surveillance is a bad thing, but so is too little. It is a matter of the measure. Takes a certain sensitivity to get it right -- to use intelligence to promote peace rather than as a provocative, threatening tool.

The problem with the NSA surveillance of the electronic communications is that it is excessively intrusive, excessively inclusive and just all around excessive. But surveillance and intelligence in the right measure -- that is not excessive -- furthers peace.

[merrily]

17. Maybe it's as it should be; maybe not. But that is a very different thing from saying they are open.

[TwilightGardener]

2. We invited China to naval exercises (RIMPAC?) in Hawaii, and they

sent...a surveillance ship to spy on the other countries' ships in the exercise! So, I don't think we'll be stopping surveillance anytime soon.

[bemildred]

3. More Derpitude from the National Security State.

Our hostile actions are necessary to protect us. Your hostile actions are hostile actions.

[JDPriestly]

12. No country should keep its movements of its military a secret.

We don't keep all of it a secret. California has quite a large population of Chinese immigrants who can observe what goes on. How many are observing our military sites, equipment, etc. would be hard to gauge. We keep certain things secret, but I don't think we could keep major military build-ups secret. I doubt that we would try. As with ISIS, we tend to announce major build-ups. Small troop or equipment movements we can keep secret, but not big ones.

That may not be so true of the Chinese. It may be important for keeping the peace and protecting ourselves that we be aware of what the Chinese are doing. Military intelligence can be a tool for preventing war not just for conducting war.

[bemildred]

18. I'm just asking for a little consistency. Same rules for everybody. nt

[JDPriestly]

19. Most countries probably try to keep tabs one way or another on the military movements

within other countries. Some countries have more capacity to do that than others. If your neighbor puts a sticker on the back of his car that reads, "God made men. Smith & Wesson keeps them equal," you watch him. Trust me. Been there. Done that.

I did not buy a gun, but I kept my eyes open, and when he cut the shrubbery between my house and his, I did not argue because once the shrubbery was gone, I could watch him come and go out and into his house all the better.

Military surveillance and intelligence is legitimate. If somebody has guns, I want to know how he is storing and using them. It is a matter of self-defense even if you don't have guns.

[Diclotican]

4. Judi Lynn

Judi Lynn

What can China do to stop US for snooping into their military secrets - shoot the aircraft down - and risk a war with US I doubt they have any chance to survive ? The PRC have a lot of new shiny toys who need to be integrated into the military and I doubt PRC would be able to stop US doing surveillance flights anytime soon - even if they can complain, and threaten and harass the aircrafts doing the patrols... PRC are after all a challenge in the Pacific, at least some claim it - and i suspect they are not as benevolent as they claim to be.. China have a long history not just as a victim of imperial power - but as an imperial power to others...

Diclotican

[FrodosPet]

8. America's First In Being Worst

Anybody and everybody who does something the U.S. does not like is superior.

For example, China's economic imperialism in Latin America. They are making loans to Venezuela which are paid back with (declining) future oil production, leaving them with less and less to sell at full price for ongoing cash.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-venezuela-oil-exports-insight-idUKKBN0GL1LP20140821

As long as it is not the U.S., it's all good.

[Diclotican]

11. FrodosPet

FrodosPet

I know - PRC is as nasty as the US ever was - and I suspect many of them who turned to China for cheap loans - would live to regret they did it - as PRC is as imperial as the rest of the old states who once was giving this countries their loans... and whose int erst was the one killing their economy... PRC is just somewhat smarter - but they play by the same book as the rest....

Diclotican

[hobbit709]

5. There's a lot of pot and kettle there.

[KG]

6. u.s. foreign policy beyond ridiculous

[dipsydoodle]

7. And vice versa.

[another_liberal]

9. If their military build-up justifies our spying on them . . .

Then the same logic would suggest every foreign power in the World should be given free access to all of our defense establishment.

[JDPriestly]

14. Our military is very powerful, but we are not as secretive as some Americans think.

We can't have an effective defense if we are too open about military matters, but we are not overly secretive. There are many Chinese immigrants in California. They can observe what is going on here with no problem. If planes fly out from California, they can be seen and heard. China should not be so secretive.

[another_liberal]

16. Much of what you suggest is clearly true . . .

Though I do have doubts about what level of openness the curious will find within our military establishment.

The fact remains, nonetheless, that if China tried to engage in the kind of spy flights our military is conducting on the very edge of Chinese territory, it's likely we would respond in a most dramatic fashion.

[hack89]

20. We let Soviet spy planes and ship operate within sight of of land for decades

Because international law said they could. When I was in the navy, every time we had an exercise off the east coast a Soviet spy ship would be there.

[another_liberal]

23. That was the Cold War, correct?

I find it hard to believe such tolerance is still our policy? It would seem so out of character for Imperial Amerika.

[hack89]

24. International law says it is our policy

We let other countries do it so they cannot stop us from doing it. It is not complicated.

[another_liberal]

25. It might be a little more complicated . . .

You were there, right?

[hack89]

26. It is not complicated at all

It is in black and white in international law.

[another_liberal]

27. Of course . . .

There is also how one applies that law, and we would likely be applying it rather confrontationally if pushed as far as we are pushing China.

[hack89]

28. ok nt

[another_liberal]

29. Good night . . .

. . .

[Blue_Tires]

31. I guess you missed the news that China already spies on us? Constantly??

Moreso that perhaps any other country??

Everybody spies on everybody...

[L0oniX]

21. We're doing things in our house that we want kept secret ...so now the NSA is spying on us.

The wife is pissed off too.

[ripcord]

22. It isn't like the flights are entering Chinese territory

they are staying over international waters.

[MisterP]

30. you won't show me what you're DOING; I wanna see what you're DOING

*forces someone to go on hands and knees so they can stand on their back and look over fence*

[Bodhi BloodWave]

32. Couldn't that justification headline easily be turned on its head?

Chinese official: American surveillance flights justifies secrecy of China's military

Personally i don't really care one way or the other since I'm sure both sides are doing it to some degree(tho via different means) but excuses often tends to amuse me, especially when they can be turned on its head like above

[Red Mountain]

33. The Chinese aren't playing with the same set of rules

Surveillance flights outside a country's territorial boundaries are an international norm.

The issue is what those boundaries are and who gets to define them.

The Chinese are claiming far more territory than is recognized by international law.

It's going to be a problem for not just us but Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc.

They're pushing.