Sweden in 3rd day of suspected sub search

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

HELSINKI (AP) — The Swedish military's search for evidence of suspected undersea activity in its waters entered its third day on Sunday amid reports of a suspected Russian intrusion.

The operation was reminiscent of the Cold War, when Sweden's armed forces routinely hunted for Soviet submarines in its waters.

The armed forces said it had launched an intelligence operation involving a few hundred people in the Stockholm archipelago after receiving information "from a credible source."

Officials declined to give more information except to say they were investigating possible "foreign underwater activity" in the archipelago and other nearby coastal waters.

FULL story at link.



Marko Saavala

Swedish Navy minesweeper HMS Kullen patrols in the Stockholm Archipelago, Sweden, Sunday Oct. 19 2014. A Swedish military search for evidence of suspected undersea activity in its waters has entered its third day amid reports of a suspected Russian intrusion. (AP Photo / TT News Agency / Marko Saavala) SWEDEN OUT


Read more: http://www.omaha.com/news/world/sweden-in-rd-day-of-suspected-sub-search/article_15ab8fc1-b54d-590b-a43f-b7b320f99fac.html

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POSTED: SUNDAY, OCTOBER 19, 2014 9:44 AM | UPDATED: 11:00 AM, SUN OCT 19, 2014.

[pangaia]

1. Don't mess with the Swedes... or the Norwegians.

[postulater]

4. The Swedes and the Norwegians don't even mess with each other.

[ColesCountyDem]

5. The Finns aren't too shabby, either. n/t

[postulater]

8. One word - Vikings.

[Adsos Letter]

2. What will they do if they find one? n/t

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

3. It depends...

... if Sweden catches them, the perps will be given a case of ABBA cd's. If Norway catches the perp, they will be fed with lutefisk and returned to their respective border.

PS: With all due respect for the treasured Norwegians and Swedes in my life.

[Diclotican]

9. IthinkThereforeIAM

IthinkThereforeIAM

I think if the crew of a Russian submarine was force-feed Lutefisk for a while - as a punishment for messing around in our waters - Will think twice before doing it again - as Lutefisk is a dish not for the new-beginner in specially dishes.... Norway might even end up been accused of torturing the russian crew - by punishing them in unusual and cruel ways...


On a more serious note - I do hope the russian crew who might be on the submarine who are in swedish water - are not in danger - and the best is, that the russian submarine is on its way back to the russian bases - in Russia - rather than playing hide and sike with the swedish navy - the swedish Navy is maybe not at the same size as the russians - but far better equipped - and very good in what they do....

Diclotican

[DeSwiss]

6. The Elusive Moby Dickslavsky.

The legend continues......

[tularetom]

7. his has been going on for a hundred years

Recently a WWI Russian submarine was discovered beneath the Baltic.

http://www.stockholmnews.com/more.aspx?NID=4027

There is a video with some excellent footage (the commentary is in Swedish)

[Diclotican]

10. tularetom

tularetom

Just from the last 100 year? - Russia and Sweden have been in wars with each other for centuries - ever since Peter the Great of Imperial Russia deiced it needed a base of operations in the baltic sea - Sweden and Russia have had a few bones to pick with each others over the centuries..

Diclotican

[tularetom]

11. I don't think there were any submarines in the Baltic in the time of Peter the Great

But I wasn't there.

[Diclotican]

12. tularetom

tularetom

I doubt it was any submarine fleet in the time of Peter the great - even though even it is rumored that Archimedes build a submergence vessel for over 2000 years ago - to be used in the adriatic sea - Im not sure if it is true - but it is still a rumor... And at the time of World War one - a few states had submarine fleets - imperial Russia - and Germany was a few of them - I doubt Russia was at war with Sweden at the time of World war one - mostly becouse Sweden was nautral - as was Norway back then - and I belive it was a submarine who was used to wage war aginst German interest in the baltic sea - as both sides was involved in a rather brutal war even back then - the eastern front - between Germany and Russia was even harsher and more brutal than the western front between Germany and the western powers... Not to say the western front was not brutal..

As a sidenote - between the wars - specially before Hitler got his army, navy and air force up and running in the mid 1930s - germany and russia -two states who was not accepted into the fold as nations of interest - both was pariahs after world war one - and the breakup of the old order - and both was on the losing end of world war one - worked together - they could make use of modern warfare equipment - even if Germany was forbidden for having a naval force of size - most of her battleship and other he-wy weapons was destroyed - or made into allied hands - and was forbidden to have either submarines or air force and just a 100.000 strong army.. they worked closely with Russia -and germany was able to train and make use of new equipment - who was under the formal use of the russian naval and air force - but who was paid for by germany - and was under informal command of germany - so both the use of submarine and air force was continued - and germany never lost the capacity to build neither aircraft or submarines - to a degree it was continued under other names - quite a few submarines build between 1920 and 1935 was ordered by other nations - but was kept under german control and used as training grounds for the new officer corps who at the beginning of world war two should make havoc with allied and natural shipping for years to come.... The same happened with the army and the air force - who officially was disbanded at the end of world war one - but who continued to be a part of the military - even if so in civilian cloth so to speak...

Diclotican

[melm00se]

22. Submarine warfare

had it's genesis with the development of the Whitehead torpedo during the latter half of the 19th century.

the submarine underwent a ton of development during the the same time and the 1st truly effective submarine platform was with the Holland boats at the turn of the 20th century (the US boat their 1st Holland boat in 1900 and subsequently 6 more).

the 1st wide use of the submarine was, as you mentioned, WWI.

Submarines were (and to a certain extent now) highly cost effective weapons platforms. A low cost submarine could damage or sink a high cost target (like a battleship). This ROI made makes them highly attractive to just about any country looking to field a naval presence. Current count of countries with submarine forces is ~40.

[happyslug]

13. That was the days when they ran sleds between Sweden and Poland.....

The Baltic freezes up even today, but in the 1600s it froze so solid almost every year that Stages coaches ran between Poland and Sweden in the winter months over the Baltic. They even built hotels for the travelers on the ice.

It is known that since 1720, the Baltic Sea has frozen over entirely only 20 times. The most recent case was in early 1987, which was the most severe winter in Scandinavia since that date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea#The_Middle_Ages

On the other hand most of the years the Baltic Froze over was prior to 1850 (Twice during WWII and again in 1947, none till 1987).

20 times since 1720 does not sound like much, till you learned that since 1780, the Baltic froze over in 1940, 1944, 1947 and 1987. i.e 16 times between 1720 and 1780.

Baltic Countries
.... for the first time in 160 years. Baltic Sea was frozen over. (NYT, the 14th of February 1940)

http://www.warchangesclimate.com/b/Four_month_war.html

The above is a paper on the severe Winters of 1939-1945, where Europe returned almost to Mini Ice Age conditions. Why is a good question, did the fighting lead to the cold temperatures OR was the war (and people who went to war) driven by sun/weather etc to go to war, just like sun spots affect temperatures on the earth? The later seems to be a more logical answer, but it could be just coincidence (on the other hand it is an interesting topic for speculation).

Back to the topic, Peter the Great. Peter lived in the late 1600s early 1700s, as the Little Ice age went through its small decline.

A cold period that lasted from about A.D. 1550 to about A.D. 1850 in Europe, North America, and Asia. This period was marked by rapid expansion of mountain glaciers, especially in the Alps, Norway, Ireland, and Alaska. There were three maxima, beginning about 1650, about 1770, and 1850, each separated by slight warming intervals.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Glossary/index.php?mode=alpha&seg=l&segend=n
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age

The peak year is considered 1650 (dates vary on how you do the calculation so all dates are approximate NOT exact) then a slight warming trend started up.

Just pointing out, that given that the Baltic was know to Freeze in the 1600s, subs would only be usable less then half the year. You need air to get to the sub and that would require access to the surface in the 1600s. No surface free of ice, no access to aid, no sub.

In summer such subs would be usable, but unlike surface ships useless in winter (in Winter Surface Ships could be gun batteries, till the Baltic un-froze.

[Diclotican]

16. happyslug

happyslug

I know - the baltic sea had many years who it froze solid - and most people was able to travel from Sweden, or Denmark - to Poland over the ice -rather han by sea - and it was often more comfortable than using a ship... As ship travel could be both dangerous - and hard for the ones who did it... And many was also seasick - as it was not that often people from the inland was doing sailing at all...


I know it was some cold Weather in Europe during world war two - some claim it was the weather who first broke the german spirit - not the russian counter-offensive in early 1942 - the 1941-42 winter was one for the records - specially as germany had not planned for a long war in Russia - and the consequences about it was horrible for the german soldiers who somehow managed to survive it all... I have not the answer for why people got to war in 1939 - or not in 1945 or later for that mater - it could be the lack of sun spots -or just a lot of coincidence in many ways... But some of the worst wars or times of great social unrest - was when the weather was cold - and continued to be cold - with the result that hunger - or danger of hunger was imminent for everyone... The French Revolution was example the result of a decade of struggling farmers - and hunger for many - because of the inept government answer to the difficulty - and it was also because of the corruption who had grown to extreme heights ever since Lois XIV had decided hi - and just he had the full power of the government.... The Rich was never hungry - and had everything they was in need of - the rest - not so - a decade of failing crops - and in many cases hunger for many - ended rather bloody for France - and later on - after the revolution was over - also for Europe - who from 1800 to 1815 was engulfed in wars all over the place....

I doubt it was any subs in the Baltic in the 1600s - mostly because as you point out - it would be a waste of time - to build submarines - and to serve them - if most of the sea was frozen half the year... Most of the sea bearing ships was not even on the sea as the time was used to repair - to refit - and other vice to fix the ships - it was the same matter in most european sea bearing nations....


And on a rather interesting side note - when Peter the great was building his naval forces - in different areas of the russian empire - it was in fact a citizen of the Denmark-Norwegian state who was instrumental in making it possible.. His name was Nils Olsen - who was born in Stavanger - one of the most important harbors in Norway at the time - but he is best known as Cornelius Cruys - who ended up as Vice-Admiral in the imperial Russian Naval force - and for most of Peter the greats time - was instrumental in building and training the russian sea power - in the Azov Sea - the Baltic Sea and in the Barents sea... He started out as a sea man on board a dutch trade ship - and was going the ropes from a seaman to first officer - and then even captain - and had some rather interesting histories around Europe - even managed to be paid by the Spanish Crown - as retribution from unlawfully arrest - as he was never a dutch citizen - but Danish-Norwigian... But by the end of the 1600s - he had hit a wall - as he was rather outspoken - and not afraid of tipping on others toes - something that made him more enemies than friends - it was not a help that he DID know he was in the right - and the others was not.... In the end - he thanked yes to be making a future for humself in Russia - first in Arkangelsk, who was his first base of operations - where he had to fight off russian authorities who had other plans than to let a forreigner build up a naval force even if he had the full support of the Tzar... In the end he managed to build a naval force of matter in Arkangelsk - even a naval force in the Azov sea - where the ships even made a suprise travel to Konstantinople - and the "crown" of his experience in Russia was the bulding of the russian naval forces in the baltic sea - specially after Peter was able to build his european city - where St-Petersburgs stay today....

Diclotican

Diclotican

[Sognefjord]

14. Some Vikings actually were instrumental in founding early Russia.

Rurik, Ryurik? I am not sure if they were from Norway or Sweden. The relationship goes way back. And Knyaz Aleksandr Nevskii defeated the Swedes when they menaced Novgorod.

[Diclotican]

15. Sognefjord

Sognefjord

Rurik - or what he is called - was from scandinavia at least - some claim him to be of Norwegian decent - other claim him to be from sweden - it might be a possibility he was from become Sweden - but regardless - he was one of the ones who started the whole thing back then - in the east.... Rus - is by the way a name for norsemen in old russian - and Russia have never exactly denied the possibility that some of our ancestors back in the days - was traveling to what become Russia - and grounded some of the first city's who become Russia later on..

As the history goes - it was a time of great despair in the principalities in the east - no one had the ability to force the others to make peace - and the old order had broken down - and chaos was the result... Some of the more vise leaders of the old principalities deiced it was need for some from the outside - who could make order out of chaos - and for some reason Rurik - who had been traveling in that area for years - and had the right ancestry - was asked to take the helm - and to try to make peace with the different principalities.. He thanked yes to the job -and worked tirelessly for years to make peace - and to make some order out of the chaos - he managed to do it - and government for many years as their leader And his family of descenders was also instrumental in the empire of Kiev - who until the attack of the Mongols in the 12th century was one of the most important city's in the early Russian world.. After the fall of Kiev - by the Mongols - the power shifted north to Moscow - who could claim some ancestry to the old Kiev Empire - and also - could claim to have some ancestry back to the Byzantine Empire - as one of the princes was married to one of the last born princesses of the old Empire... that -and a rather ruthless struggle for power over many centuries made Moscow - and Kremlin one of the most important parts of the whole Russia - and who still is the capital of the whole Russia...

And for most russians - Knyaz Alexandr Nevskii is still one of the greatest heroes - becouse he was ble to defeat the swedes when they was in the area meaning Novogord and other russian city's it was a hard hit for Sweden - who had some real power back then...

Diclotican

Diclotican

[Sognefjord]

17. Thank you for clearing that up. I really have only a sketchy idea

of what was happening in Kiev Rus at that time and also what Rurik accomplished. I do know more about A. Nevskii since there was a movie (Sergei Eisenstein I think) about the attack by the Teutonic Knights on Novgorod. The battle on the Ice. And sound track by Prokofiev! I imagine you have seen it.

[Diclotican]

18. Sognefjord

Sognefjord

I have never really seen the movie by Sergei Eisenstain - A Nevskii - even though I have seen it been refereed to many times as one of the more classical russian movies... It is correct it was a movie about the russians who attacked the Teutonic Knights on Novogord (a old russian city) and crushed the teutonic knights at a lake, when the ice broke under them - and most of them drowned that day.. The movie was made under World War two i believe - and was used as a propaganda tool to make sure Russia would prevail - as they did back in the middle ages.. But I have the movie Battleship Potemkin - the ship who started the October revolution in 1917 - as a movie the age is given it some old patina - but as a propaganda movie for the soviet union - a rather good movie... Even if little dull by todays standard... I got it as a bargain in a store I was in - the young clerk behind the counter had no clue what a gem he gave up

I know some about the old russian empire - before the Tzar's and all that - it is rather interesting - specially as the empire of Kiev was far more "democratic" than the later empire going out from Moscow - who by the way - was more like a village than a city - but after the mongols sacked Kiev - like the vandals sacked rome before it - it broke some important gains made by the people of Kiev - and in the first centuries of the grand duke rule in Moscow - they was obedient to the Golden Horde - the mongol empire in parts of Europe.. It was not before the end of the middle ages - in the 1390s- the start of the 1400s when the Mongol empire crumbled - that the grand Duce of Moscow was able to fend off - and to make his own right to power..

Diclotican

[Sognefjord]

20. That's how the Nevskii movie begins by showing the native Russians doing obeisance

to the Il-khans of the Golden Horde. It was surprising how far the Mongols went west. Way over to present day Poland and Lithuania. I had a college teacher who told us not to study about the European Middle Ages since we already knew about knights and Normans etc but to concentrate on the East, especially Russia, China & Central Asia as well. But I found out later on I really needed to study more about the Vikings also. As mentioned earlier the Vikings really did have a connection with early Russia. it takes awhile to get the big picture, I'll admit.

[Diclotican]

21. Sognefjord

Sognefjord

I know the background to the movie - and it is inter sting how Russia managed somehow to play both sides - and even in the end to wrestle the control over its kingdom from the Mongols - to their own kings and thereafter slowly build up a whole kingdom who was one of the biggest in Europe... And this was before Ivan III took the crown - and titled himself as Tsar of all Russians - a title held by that family to 1917 when the Tsar had to abidiside - and then was executed with most of his family in a basement in Yekaterinburg - and it is indeed interesting to know how far west the Mongols really went before they was coming to something that was not interesting being part of the mongol empire - and who hit back - in fact even Hungary was attacked by the Mongols - but for some reason they was not able to conquer Hungary - and therefore had to leave the area - and concentrate of what is todays Russia and Poland and Luthaunia... The mongols had the power to conquer the most of Europe at the time of their arrival - mostly because there was no real power to defend the rest from the mongol riders - who was then at the top of the military pyramid.. It was not before after the Mongols - the European states was able to build armies - and weapons who could have beaten the Mongols.... In fact - if not more pressing matters had arrived from the deep mongolian world - it is possible the mongol army who was ravaging most of Russia, and some of the eastern European world - could have changed the european history as a whole - because the onslaught the mongols was given where they attacked.. At the hight of their power - it was few places in the whole euro-asian continent who could have hit back and beaten the mongols.. They was indeed a scary gang of people.. Even if maybe half of the mongol army was not really from mongolian - many of them was people who had chooses to be part of the larger army - as it was better to be allied with them - than to be conquered with them - and at the heydays of the Golden Horde - It was indeed a empire to reckon with - from todays Russia and Poland - to China - who was ruled by a mongolian Emperor - Kublai Khan was one of the more famous of them - and he was vice enough to make China one of the most prosperous parts of the mongol empire - Something Marco Polo was writing in his Ile Million when he finally came home after been traveling to China - and lived there for 11 years - even got a friendship whit the Chinese Emperor Kublai Khan... A man who used Polo, to travel the empire - to look and to write down what he saw -and present it for the emperor - so he could read it.... And maybe use the information to rule better...

The history of Eastern Europe - and Asia is a important one - sadly it is seldom told in college or university - it is for the specially interested - and that is sad - as the history of Eastern Europe is as interesting as the history of the Western Europe are... But the information is more difficult to get your hands on I suspect..

The Vikings on the other hand - was both plunderers and then business men - and rather sawy one at that - if they do not get a decent prise - they could always plunder you as a thank you note... And most people was afraid - just the rumors of vikings in the vicinity could make people flee for they lives - way after the vikings was any real danger to European... And even if they could be devastating for the places where they hit - they could also be great nation builders - like in Normandy - where they was able to build up a home for the Normanners - and also in time to conquer a whole iceland - England and build a rather interesting kingdom over there... And at the 11000 or 12th century even managed to build a kingdom out of the southern tip of Italy - even if they officially was there on behalf of the Pope - who wanted the southern part of Italy back - but then the prince refuse - and build up an rather interesting synergy of christendom - and islam who was present in todays southern Italy... The kings refused to run them out of the country and it was more tolerance there than in other parts of Europe at the time... And the kings of Naples and Sicily was able to keep power for centuries before history again turned the page - and other powers got into the area...

It takes a while to get any picture - but it is an interesting road to go down and to understand more of the history behind what is the world of today...

Diclotican

[Sognefjord]

24. You are quite correct in this historical overview and it is a pity that most people. even more

educated ones do not consider why things are the way they are and how we got where we are today. If Russia had not been cut off from the rest of Europe by the Mongols how would that nation have evolved. Would it have been more "European?" It is fascinating to conjecture. Also part of my family might have been Viking roamers but part stayed home so I still have cousins on the farm! But the records don't go back that far.

[Diclotican]

25. Sognefjord

Sognefjord

I think if Russia had not ben cut off from the rest of Europe - by the mongols - I guess the country would have evolved a whole different way than it did - but then again - if Russia had not been cut off, it would not have made Russia what it is today - so it would be difficult to say whose way could have changed it.. What we do know - is that Russia - as a whole emerged on the world stage as a rather interesting country - ruled by an absolute monarch - at a time when most monarchs was less than absolute in its rule - even the great kings of France had to play by some rules and could not govern without some backing from powerfully subjects and without any legal restraints...

I guess your family back in the days - could have been vikings in one way or another - even if some of them was staying home for the most part - after all - even the vikings of old time was farmers most of the time - in fact most vikings was farmers - who never was involved in war in the rest of Europe - it was often just the few on the top - the elite if you want - who had the resources and manpower to set on a quest of war against the rest of Europe - it was a costly affair going to war - and you need time to get the right knowledge about using the necessary weapons to wage a var.. As in the rest of Europe - the nobility - had the best outcome when it come to waging war, that be against the neighbor - or somewhere else - but as the wealth from Europe come home - more and more people was able - or willing to spend the resources being able to be part of a war machine - and for a few centuries the vikings could be a horrible maniac for the rest of the world...

My forefathers came to the place i live - in the mid 1300 - around 1350 - right after the black death - a plague have going over the country - they had be given a farm - who was then under Hovedøya monastery - The Catholic church was at that time one of the largest property owners in the whole of Norway - even larger than the King! - who made the Church one the most powerfully institutions of Norway - and until the protest antic reform in 1537 also a power to reckon with when it come to the danish kings who after 1380 was also the kings of Norway - and where most of the power resided in Copenhagen and not in Oslo - who by then was just a small village - or a small town... Anyway - at least my forefathers came to this place - outside Oslo called Asker - and even now - more than 600 year after they first arrived here from Telemark - they still reside here - I'm just one of many of that small family who still live here - and they even still own some of the farms who have been under the families control for centuries .. Isn't that cool?

Diclotican

[Omaha Steve]

19. Sweden Claims 3 Credible Sightings In Submarine Hunt

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/19/sweden-sightings-submarine-hunt_n_6011798.html

HELSINKI (AP) — The Swedish military said Sunday it had made three credible sightings of foreign undersea activity in its waters during the past few days amid reports of a suspected Russian intrusion in the area.

Rear Adm. Anders Grenstad said the armed forces had observed the activity in the Stockholm archipelago and nearby coastal area, but declined to give details of an operation reminiscent of the Cold War, when Sweden's armed forces routinely hunted for Soviet submarines in its waters.

The armed forces published a photograph taken on Sunday by a passerby showing a partially submerged object in the water from a distance, but it was unclear what kind of vessel was in question.

FULL story and video at link.

[Sunlei]

23. They should release the distress message they heard.

If it's a credible call for help, let the Russian people push their military to ask for help.