9-1-1 caller says gun held by Cleveland 12-year-old shot by police was 'probably fake'
Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The man who called 9-1-1 before a 12-year-old boy was shot by police told dispatchers the gun was "probably fake."
The man told police he was at the park near Cudell Recreation Center and could see "a guy with a pistol" on the swing set pulling the weapon from his pants and "scaring the s--t out of everyone."
"There's a guy with a pistol, and it's probably fake," he said quickly, "but he's pointing it everybody."
When police arrived, a group of people were sitting around a table under a gazebo next to the rec center's parking lot. A rookie officer in the car saw the pistol sitting on the table, and watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband, Jeff Follmer said.
Read more: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/11/9-1-1_caller_says_gun_held_by.html
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geomon666
(7,512 posts)Fucking coward
orleans
(34,051 posts)if i was at the park with my little girl & some asshole was flashing a gun around i'd call 911 too.
i'd call 911 regardless of who was at the park (my kid, other kids--it wouldn't matter).
you can't threaten people with a fucking gun. and a lot of people can't tell the difference between a real weapon, a toy, or a bb gun (not exactly what i think of as being a toy gun).
it's too bad this happened to the kid. but wtf was he thinking? he's 12 years old--he should know better than to do shit like that.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)I've had this happen before and that's how it usually went down, though in my case it was orange tipped and the kid was a teenager, I didn't say anything. But I did assess the situation further before taking it to the next level.
Journeyman
(15,031 posts)The cold-blooded killer who murdered the woman who raised me was 14 years old. He ripped open the door to her car while she sat idling at a stop light, dragged her to the street by her hair, pistol-whipped her savagely about her head and shoulders, then put two slugs through her left eye while she begged for her life.
I mention this not to illustrate the barbarity possible by a young teen -- we all know that -- but to illuminate for you how my perception of the world differs from yours. My experience tells me, first and foremost, that violence is irrational, quick to show itself, and not capable of being reasoned with or even met with rational thought. When confronted with the possibility of violence, especially in the form of a youngster holding a firearm, the furthest thought from my mind is the possibility of reasoning with the potential perpetrator. I too would be quick to call the police, and probably quicker still to move myself and especially my children to safety far away from this situation.
I envy you your confidence to deal with the world in a rational, mature fashion. My life experience denies me such easy comfort. Once, I may have had such a responsible attitude. But it just goes to show, more than a life can be stolen in a brutal act of unreasonable brutality.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)I realize there are circumstances that would necessarily require taking it to the next level, calling 911, flagging down a cop, but I don't think this was such a scenario. The 911 caller indicated as much, to me. Had he simply gathered more information or confronted the child, we may not even be hearing of this story.
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)that's where I used to live
stone space
(6,498 posts)...my first inclination is to walk up and have a chat with him.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)for a few seconds, one can easily tell what a real gun or a toy. He probably did this and figures the items was probably a fake gun but still decided to call the police. Personally, I think the world would be safer if the cops in this country were severely punished for making stupid mistakes like this.
stone space
(6,498 posts)...stopped strolling around with their adult toys.
And if toy manufacturers stopped marketing "toys" to children that bear such a strong resemblance to adult toys.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Is that guy in the right the model for sniper from TF2?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Gunz are evil, don't you know
Darb
(2,807 posts)you know exactly who the ammosexuals are.
hack89
(39,171 posts)so I can show it to the DU posters that use it as a broad brush smear against gun owners. Help me clean up the discussion here.
Darb
(2,807 posts)I'll give you an unofficial one:
ammosexual - (n) A person, predominately from the United States (not always, see also Boko Haram, ISIS, ISIL) who believes playing with their tools, or toys, is more important than the public safety. Other defining traits consist of their belief that violence can solve any and all problems. They derive their obstinate and arrogant attitude from a purposeful misinterpretation of the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution. (see also: gun-humper)
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)anyone who owns a firearm at all.
Darb
(2,807 posts)friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)branford
(4,462 posts)
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)but still called the cops anyway. I mean, anyone who has lived in the US that last 10 years knows how trigger happy cops can be. I mean, I would not call the police for anything unless I know without a doubt that my life was in danger and even at that, i'll have to think twice before making that call.
Heck, if I were to call 911 for medical emergency, I will make sure to tell them that I did not need a cop whatsoever. These assholes might kill me if I start having a seizure.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Here's a picture of the gun recovered at the scene:
Can you tell the difference? Can a cop making a split second decision?
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)You just don't shoot at people because they have a gun. And yes, I could tell by watching a 12yr old handle the item if it was real or fake. The real problem here is that real cops have been replaced by trigger happy manchild who will shot at anything that poses any danger to them
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)the orange tip had been removed, and, open carrying or just carrying a gun by a 12 year old is ILLEGAL in every state.
Again, can you tell the difference if it's real or not?
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)There are plenty of police shootings that are far more egregious than this one. As I've noted elsewhere, I think EVERY shooting that leaves a body should go to trial, but I wouldn't be surprised that if this one did, the officer wound up acquitted, even by many people who feel the police have become too prone to violence.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)That would be totally unrealistic and probably a violation of rights. "Well, we know you're innocent, but let's spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on a prosecution and defense."
That just doesn't make sense.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)there is no 'accident'. You had your finger on the trigger and your 'gun discharged'? Well, duh, that's because you applied pressure to the trigger and fired it. If you didn't mean to, you're guilty of gross negligence at the very least.
It's time to stop treating police as 'special' and letting them shoot people without having the same process play out as would if a civilian fired the same shot.
I think if somebody ends up dead, we can spend a few bucks for the public to know how and why they ended up dead, and be assured that it wasn't just police making up stories.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)What about other people? A trial for every dead body with a bullet in it?
If this officer's story is corroborated, I see no reason for him or her to go to trial. Not every tragic death requires a trial. Sometimes, things are just senseless tragedies.
I'm afraid this looks like one of them.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Not the police, not prosecutors, not grand juries.
Some dumbass allows a 5 year old to shoot his 3 year old sister? That's not a 'senseless tragedy'. It's criminal negligence and child endangerment. Ditto some idiot letting their nine year old daughter shoot a gun with too much recoil so she kills a range instructor.
People who love the second amendment seem to think the world is 'full of senseless tragedies'. The reality is that the world is full of people who were too stupid to own the guns they own.
TexasMommaWithAHat
(3,212 posts)I know someone who killed his own child...with a vehicle. It was a senseless, senseless, awful, awful tragedy, but it was not a crime. Some people here would probably think he should have gone to trial...never mind the circumstances, which I won't elaborate here. And no alcohol, either.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)expert knew it was probably fake. Sad the trigger happy police couldn't tell the difference. You also have to believe the cop's side of the story.
How the Cleveland Police Rushed To Get Their Story Straight About Cop Who Shot 12-Year Old
We were told that the child was in stable condition, according to the Cleveland EMS workers we spoke with. But police didn’t seem to even know that. Today, we were informed that the boy died, but we have yet to receive confirmation of this.
Then, their official press release painted a very vivid picture of a 12-year-old who was out to apparently gun down an officer with his… BB-gun.
The statement read: “The Preliminary information reveals that witnesses reported that a male was in the playground area of the center, waiving a gun and pointing it at people.”
But we were unable to find one witness who said such a thing. In fact, the police at first did not even say this, when we asked them point blank if the child had threatened anyone.
“Upon arrival on scene, officers located the suspect and advised him to raise his hands,” the statement continues. “The suspect did not comply with the officers’ orders and reached to his waistband for the gun. Shots were fired and the suspect was struck in the torso.”
Cleveland police are asking us to believe that an armed police officer drew a gun on a 12-year-old who was armed only with a toy weapon, and instead of complying or even ignoring the officer, the child reached for the gun to presumably aim it at the officer?
The Cleveland police are essentially asking us to believe that this 12-year-old was at the park for the purposes of “Suicide-by-cop.” Clearly no 12-year-old would think that they could get in a real shoot out with an officer, if they were armed only with a BB-gun. So the purpose of allegedly drawing the gun would only be to have the officer shoot him. That is the implication that the Cleveland Police Department’s official statement makes regarding this shooting.
But the problem is that they not only are asking us to believe this far-fetched idea, they are asking us to believe that their story is true, even when it took the release of our viral article on the shooting to prompt them to piece together a response.
When police officers ask a citizen to explain what happened when they shoot someone – allegedly in self-defense – then it is almost a tacit implication of guilty if they remain silent for hours, while piecing together what they consider to be a believable account.
So far, there has yet to be one single witness who has come forward to corroborate the official police version of events. Yet we are suppose to believe the officer’s story that paints a 12-year-old with a BB-gun as a deranged maniac out to trick officers into believing his gun was real. It seems slightly more realistic that police are covering their tracks, as they always do when they shoot someone who turns out to have been unarmed, and their story – as unbelievable and ridiculous as it is – was what they could come up with on short notice, thanks to the pressure circulation of our report on the shooting was putting on them.
http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/11/how-the-cleveland-police-had-to-rush/
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I think it, as well as any shooting that ends up with a corpse should go to trial. If the evidence is presented, and the jury disagrees with the cop, I'm fine with that.
Dr. Strange
(25,920 posts)From the article:
"but he's pointing it everybody."
"scaring the s--t out of everyone."
If that's true (and maybe the 911 caller is lying, hence the "if"
, he was brandishing--a crime.
Darb
(2,807 posts)a toy. He fucked up, no debate, he fucked up and killed a kid because he was afraid. He was afraid because of the shithole this country has become because of the humpers.
STOP SAYING IT.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)a justifiable homicide.
Again, the cops didn't know that it wasn't a real gun at the time of the confrontation, they saw what looked like a very realistic looking gun in his waistband.
If I were in that cops position, and was facing the same situation, I'd be afraid for my life also.
And I will continue to say it despite your dislike of it.
Darb
(2,807 posts)Never will be. Keep saying it all you want, you are wrong. It was a mistake, a dreadful one, made by the cop.
No matter what you say, that cop shot that kid by mistake, because he thought he had a weapon, he did not have one. If hew had actually had a gun, then it might could be considered justified. You get the difference?
He was no threat what-so-ever, so the cop is not justified, he was wrong and killed a kid by mistake.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)You keep refusing to acknowledge that fact.
And just because you say it isn't a justifiable homicide doesn't make it so, if the video backs up the officers story, then it will be ruled justifiable.
You and others may not like it, but that's the law.
Darb
(2,807 posts)For fuck sake, you are all over every goddamn thread about this kid getting killed, defending a coward who shot a kid before he even pointed a gun at him. For all we know the kid was going to put it on the ground. You do not know what would have happened if he had waited just a couple of seconds.
It was not a gun, it was a toy. It was not dangerous. He didn't have to kill him, two shots to the chest was it? He wanted to kill him.
How about "Drop the gun", maybe, give the CHILD a chance to drop the gun. Obviously, you think it is OK to shoot that kid, I do not. I would rather the cop go the extra step to make sure he DID NOT have to kill someone, especially a 12 year old. But you obviously think it is kill first and fuck it all.
I'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. This kid was killed by mistake. It will not be ruled justifiable because it is not justifiable. The cop had no justification to kill the kid. He made a mistake because he was a coward. He could have waited, but he didn't. He chose to shoot first. He was wrong, he killed an unarmed kid. There is no justification for that, just excuses. He will be excused.
This is on the gun-humpers. They have put us all in danger with their crybaby bullshit. Farkin cowards, every goddamned one of them.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)So you didn't read the article.
No, it was one shot to the torso.
Read the article and then get back to me.
Darb
(2,807 posts)He's a coward and you are giving him cover like it's your goddamn job. Take a break, move back to the last black kid killed by a cop, give some cover in Ferguson for a while. They might need your insight over there for a while, gotta run interference all over the place these days, don't cha?
I'll get back to you when I damn well please.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Darb
(2,807 posts)Still at it? blah blah blah is clever. You are going to have to do better than that to provide ample cover to the race motivated killing of yet another black kid. It's probably going to be tougher here at DU, not like Yahoo, or Free Republic, or World Nut Daily, you are going to have to bring it here.
Awaiting your next dose of pablum. For which I will be back to crush due to its obvious and predisposed racism.
Can you find something in there to alert on?
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Blah, blah, blah.
That's all you deserve.
Darb
(2,807 posts)you are carrying water for the racists in this country like it is your goddamn job. Looks like you are on a mission, and what a pathetic mission it is.
Now cry to the mods. SOP from the likes of you.
stone space
(6,498 posts)Putting this so-called "toy" in the hands of a child was not.
Kalidurga
(14,177 posts)But, they need to make those tips non removable as in they need to actually use orange plastic for that part so as to make it so you would have to saw it off or something to get rid of it. What I saw was an easily removable part one that is also a choking hazard.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Orrex
(63,203 posts)stone space
(6,498 posts)Your scenario will happen. It's not a question of "if", but of "when".
As long as adults go around carrying their similarly looking adult toys, children will be killed for carrying theirs.
These so-called "toys" need to be banned.
Darb
(2,807 posts)get the firepower to kill dozens without a hiccup and then paint the tip orange.
branford
(4,462 posts)Neither the caller or the police officers could possibly know if the gun was real.
In such a situation, given the potential loss of life, the officers would have to assume the gun was a real firearm. However, a nice big orange plug would have certainly helped diffuse the situation. 
bobclark86
(1,415 posts)As such, no orange tip.
branford
(4,462 posts)but if the orange plug was not removed in this case, it's possible that both the bystanders and police would have viewed the entire situation differently. Still dangerous, but possibly providing more time and opportunity to diffuse or reevaluate.
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)if someone were to paint it orange
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)smart to go around carrying any sort or of gun or a toy that looks like a gun. First people can not tell if it real, BB gun or whatever. With all the school shootings and such people are scared and I don't blame them at all. Second it could be a death sentence for the kid with a paint ball gun orange tip or not. Either way a child almost lost his life. He should not of been in a public place and his parents also must take responsibility for this.
stone space
(6,498 posts)UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)
Happyhippychick
(8,379 posts)So tragic though, I feel for the parents.
belzabubba333
(1,237 posts)Lurks Often
(5,455 posts)A simple question, if you are the responding officer are you willing to die if the gun happens to be real and the 12 year old shoots you in the face with it? Or the gun is real and the 12 year old fires a shot that kills a 5 year old near you?
EX500rider
(10,841 posts).....when a armed police officer pointing a gun at you says put your hands in the air, the last thing you should do is make a reach for a gun shaped object.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)that a 12yr old would react like that if told to drop a toy gun. Do we have anyone else beside the shooter confirming this story?
EX500rider
(10,841 posts)....in his waistband. Bad move at any age.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)That's what they said, I know it doesn't really have to make any sense to you. But does it sound like something a person holding a toy gun would do? It would be 1000x more believe able it turned out it was a real gun.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)and was reaching for the gun to show that it wasn't real.
Can you tell if that gun is real or fake?
Sometimes it's exactly as it seems, and, barring any contradiction of evidence, I'll give the cop the benefit of the doubt.
jamzrockz
(1,333 posts)I have had one close encounter with a cop and I remember I just tensed up the second he asked me what I was doing. Really my first instinct was to put my hands up. But luckily the only thing I was able to do was freeze in shock
But to your question, I can't really tell if the gun was real or fake but if I had observed the gun being waved around by a 12 yr old, I think I could have figured out with a high probability that it was fake.
I think the next push will be to get cops to wear a camera on them at all times cos I do not believe the cop's side of the story.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)This and the shooting in the stairwell (in NY?) were "rookie" officers. Maybe these guys should not have been out on their own yet...
Also the linked story says that the "probably fake" and "probably juvenile" were not relayed to the responding shooter, I mean officer.
GGJohn
(9,951 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)"A rookie officer in the car saw the pistol sitting on the table, and watched the boy grab it and put it in his waistband, Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association president Jeff Follmer said.
The officer got out of the car and told the boy to raise his hands. Instead, police said, the boy reached into his waistband and grabbed the pistol.
The officer fired two shots, at least one of which hit the boy in the stomach."
Maybe the veteran cop should have gotten out of the car and handled the situation? Maybe the other cop did get out but, I wonder how many people get injuries from LEOs because they can't possibly comply with multiple, conflicting instructions shouted at them at the same time.
