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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:09 PM Jan 2015

The Obama administration wants to dramatically change how doctors are paid

Source: Washington Post

The Obama administration on Monday announced an ambitious goal to overhaul the way doctors are paid, tying their fees more closely to the quality of care rather than the quantity.

Rather than pay more money to Medicare doctors simply for every procedure they perform, the government will also evaluate whether patients are healthier, among other measures. The goal is for half of all Medicare payments to be handled this way by 2018.

Monday’s announcement marks the administration’s biggest effort yet to shape how doctors are compensated across the health-care system. As the country's largest payer of health-care services, Medicare influences medical care generally, meaning the changes being initiated by the administration will likely be felt in doctor's offices and hospitals across the country.

“As a very large payer in the system, we believe we have a responsibility to lead," said Health and Human Services Secretary Sylvia Mathews Burwell in a press conference. "For the first time, we’re going to set clear goals and establish a clear timeline for moving from volume to value in the Medicare system.”

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/26/the-obama-administration-wants-to-dramatically-change-how-doctors-are-paid/

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The Obama administration wants to dramatically change how doctors are paid (Original Post) DonViejo Jan 2015 OP
I have mixed feelings about this. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #1
My feelings aren't mixed at all. teenagebambam Jan 2015 #2
I agree. What criteria do they use? There are some conditions where patients do not get better in still_one Jan 2015 #76
I'm sure they've already thought of the situations you have cited. CTyankee Jan 2015 #97
You have much more confidence then I do still_one Jan 2015 #100
Try spending 16 years in school. Whatever 840high Jan 2015 #3
As a matter of fact I have. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #4
Do you help people live healthier and longer? Do 840high Jan 2015 #15
yes. he's a BSN. next question? elehhhhna Jan 2015 #36
This message was self-deleted by its author 840high Jan 2015 #49
Yup. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jan 2015 #85
Given that he seems to be a nurse, I would assume so (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #93
And all those years in school and the studying of difficult material and then the many years JDPriestly Jan 2015 #55
It takes that long to get a bachelor's degree. candelista Jan 2015 #70
they make more money then you think. even an old school vet I worked for made 3k every 10 pets Sunlei Jan 2015 #72
OF COURSE you do! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #6
Simon and Garfunkel? freshwest Jan 2015 #28
I know right! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #32
See my post # 55. This is a horrible idea. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #56
right because winning.... VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #63
I agree with you BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #14
funny how you LLI's are saying this...when that is EXACTLY what they do in Europe! VanillaRhapsody Jan 2015 #31
What is an LLI? BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #50
A "silent" dog whistle....or??? snappyturtle Jan 2015 #77
I'm still waiting to find out BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #83
You make good points. And the devil is in the details. Faryn Balyncd Jan 2015 #23
Some tests are not necessary, as in the case of my father, blood test showed Thinkingabout Jan 2015 #5
Your mother had the option 840high Jan 2015 #17
... madamesilverspurs Jan 2015 #7
It's Medicare, not for-profit insurance. jeff47 Jan 2015 #12
How do you measure value? Not sure about this change. Frustratedlady Jan 2015 #8
I agree, let me explain myself SummerSnow Jan 2015 #9
Why did u stay with this doctor? 840high Jan 2015 #18
i didnt, after 2 visits we switched, but it took about 7 days to switch through the insurance co. SummerSnow Jan 2015 #86
And if one is female, the standard is tell them it's psychomatic, IOW, you are hysterical... freshwest Jan 2015 #33
That reminds me of the Chris Rock Robitussin skit shanti Jan 2015 #88
How will doctors be stopped from "passing the buck"? My Good Babushka Jan 2015 #10
It's Medicare. There's no one to pass the buck to jeff47 Jan 2015 #11
I personally have Blue Cross and medicare. So yes it is for profit and there is someone else LiberalArkie Jan 2015 #20
No, there really isn't. The proposal is for how Medicare pays doctors. jeff47 Jan 2015 #21
Oh, no one will say anything and it will all look very above board My Good Babushka Jan 2015 #62
After all, they are making more than minimum wage--for India Demeter Jan 2015 #13
Possible outcome of this new method of payment HeiressofBickworth Jan 2015 #16
+1,000 CountAllVotes Jan 2015 #19
We do need Medicare for all. area51 Jan 2015 #57
What will happen to the disabled? CountAllVotes Jan 2015 #74
sounds like... mikemcl350 Jan 2015 #96
Fortunately there would be adjustments for baseline status. You'd get more for treating Hoyt Jan 2015 #29
Or drugs they buy from the manufacturers and sell at a mark-up (nt) Recursion Jan 2015 #94
+1000 nt Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #79
Probably not a good analogy zipplewrath Jan 2015 #22
Makes doctors into Igel Jan 2015 #24
That in a nut-shell nolabels Jan 2015 #64
Another terrible idea...did Arne Duncan come up with this? Ka hrnt Jan 2015 #25
^^This!^^ BrotherIvan Jan 2015 #84
I know. God forbid we look at the outcomes of people's work Recursion Jan 2015 #95
Okay. But I think this sounds like education reform with all the testing scores that mean nothing. jwirr Jan 2015 #26
And there would be little motivation for doctors to treat complicated problems pnwmom Jan 2015 #27
Not true. Docs will get paid more for treating sick patients. Hoyt Jan 2015 #30
I would hope so. But as I said - she is never going to get better. She is getting older and we are jwirr Jan 2015 #34
How so? Not if they're rewarded for keeping people healthy. n/t pnwmom Jan 2015 #37
It's relative. Keeping a person with diabetes healthy is more challenging. Hoyt Jan 2015 #39
It's not nearly as simple as you think. Some people are chronically ill and won't pnwmom Jan 2015 #40
So an Endocrinologist is going to start treating runny noses? Hoyt Jan 2015 #41
No, but an endocrinologist might not want to take a patient pnwmom Jan 2015 #43
They will get severity adjusted payments. There are systems available right now to handle that. Hoyt Jan 2015 #44
The Obama administration wants to "dramatically change" how things are done. pnwmom Jan 2015 #45
No doubt, anything Obama proposes is designed to screw us. We have the worst Hoyt Jan 2015 #46
I am not a person who denigrates Obama in general, or the ACA in general. pnwmom Jan 2015 #47
I think if you read up on reimbursement systems that reward outcomes, you'll feel better about it. Hoyt Jan 2015 #48
In France, I had the impression that the doctors were paid on salaries in some cases. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #59
Too complicated. JDPriestly Jan 2015 #58
I think we better worry about how to change the delivery system to improve outcomes, not Hoyt Jan 2015 #61
I think you are asking a very good question that would apply to millions of people, pnwmom Jan 2015 #38
Whenever I read a thread like this I am so happy that cadaverdog Jan 2015 #35
I have them too, and they have been doing what Obama is proposing for decades. Hoyt Jan 2015 #42
when you say make copies of everything Skittles Jan 2015 #52
You will need various documents from your employer and your union, cadaverdog Jan 2015 #75
Like educational reform goes healthcare. BadgerKid Jan 2015 #51
More of O's micro-managing/means testing, but this time, targeting doctors instead of public schools blkmusclmachine Jan 2015 #53
Ah, but it looks good to tinker around the edges of a problem rather than Nay Jan 2015 #65
Nope Blackjackdavey Jan 2015 #68
An ice floe would kinder and more honest. "Sick" and poor Medicare patients will not be able McCamy Taylor Jan 2015 #54
this isn't going to help.Doctors already cherry pick who they will diagnose Herself Jan 2015 #60
Everyone is doing it! Blackjackdavey Jan 2015 #66
How about focusing those standards on the Pharma Industry instead? FLPanhandle Jan 2015 #67
This Can Be a Blessing And/Or cynzke Jan 2015 #69
an excellent idea-many who are on Medicare and Medicaid do NOT receive the best care Sunlei Jan 2015 #71
i think it is about time we used all the data locked up in the medicare system. mopinko Jan 2015 #73
As a Physician Assistant practicing clinical medicine in the primary care setting, Aristus Jan 2015 #78
My husband was a physician Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #81
Undoubtedly. There are so many variables in the practice of medicine that there can't be Aristus Jan 2015 #82
So This Would Mean RobinA Jan 2015 #80
Somebody who wants to help folks and/or make $200+K a year, all but guaranteed. Hoyt Jan 2015 #87
Are you in the medical field? Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #89
There are definitely "best practices" for most situations. Unfortunately, some docs don't Hoyt Jan 2015 #90
I guess it is what lens you see through Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #91
Agree. I pretty much judge docs by if they accept Medicaid. Today, most don't. Hoyt Jan 2015 #92
"Best Practices" RobinA Jan 2015 #98
There are worse practices too. Doctors aren't always up-to-date, and often treat patients that Hoyt Jan 2015 #101
Is this proposal as simplistic as that? CTyankee Jan 2015 #99
Medicine is already halfway there Mojorabbit Jan 2015 #102
It is in the best interests of the insurance companies to make a profit. CTyankee Jan 2015 #103
like so many great ideas, there are unintended consequences fxstc Jan 2015 #104

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
1. I have mixed feelings about this.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:16 PM
Jan 2015

I tend to think doctors are overpaid in general, and that current fee per service models overincentivizes unnecessary tests and procedures, but on the other hand, this strikes me as being similar to basing teacher pay on student performance, without taking into account the large number of factors that go into student performance that are beyond the control of teachers, and ditto health. I'm all for government wanting a healthier population, but I think the place to start is to stop subsidizing the use of corn and sugar throughout the food chain, fossil fuel extraction in the environment, and really ramp up the testing of the vast number of chemicals in common use in modern America for which little or no testing data exists.

still_one

(92,061 posts)
76. I agree. What criteria do they use? There are some conditions where patients do not get better in
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jan 2015

the conventional sense, in fact in many cases just being stable or pain free could be considered a success. Sometimes people get worse because of no fault of the doctor, but the nature of the condition being treated.

Most important many successful treatments are dependent on the patient compliance. In addition, people do not always react the same way to treatment. This is do to different physiology etc.

As someone said this is a lot like judging teachers on test scores.

Perhaps before we change something like that we should try it on Congress first, and pay them on the basis of what they accomplish.

I figure we could save hundreds of thousands of dollars based on the record of Congress

CTyankee

(63,892 posts)
97. I'm sure they've already thought of the situations you have cited.
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:17 PM
Jan 2015

It's really a good idea and one that other advanced countries are already doing. Or at least that is my understanding. I think folks are overreacting and being a bit simplistic.

 

840high

(17,196 posts)
3. Try spending 16 years in school. Whatever
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:23 PM
Jan 2015

they're paid is ok with me. Not only education but setting up an office is expensive.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
4. As a matter of fact I have.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:25 PM
Jan 2015

I've actually got more than 16 years of college behind me, along with 6 college degrees.

And it doesn't have me rolling in the money.

Response to elehhhhna (Reply #36)

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
55. And all those years in school and the studying of difficult material and then the many years
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 05:08 AM
Jan 2015

of repaying the debt for all those years of study means not having a marriage or a family for some. It's really tough.

I am very dubious about this. What if someone has a chronic condition like eczema for which there really is no "cure," not even really much that helps get it under control, just years of misery? Is the doctor to be penalized because the patient needs frequent checks and help but isn't going to ever get well?

That is just one example of a problem that may take a lot of doctor's visits and really won't get better over time.

And what about the illnesses of a very elderly person. The hip operations, the knee operations, then the pneumonia and infections that just are a part of the final years of life -- the heart problems -- the high blood pressure. Hey! We are born to die in time. We want to encourage doctors to treat the very elderly patients who are living their last years well. If the doctor gets less because the outcomes are not good and because the patient returns to the hospital over and over and has declining health, it just does not seem right.

Efficiency is not everything. This system will discourage the kind of compassion that a patient, especially a very uncomfortable patient or a patient in the final stages of life needs and deserves.

This is another case of some MBAs applying their useless, inhuman mathematical analysis to a human problem. Totally the wrong way to deal with doctors' pay.

 

candelista

(1,986 posts)
70. It takes that long to get a bachelor's degree.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:39 AM
Jan 2015

If you mean 20 years, then should Ph.D.s get paid whatever they want? Great idea, but I doubt you mean it.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
72. they make more money then you think. even an old school vet I worked for made 3k every 10 pets
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 11:06 AM
Jan 2015

he saw. 3k was the average of every 10 regular appointments.

Even regular Vets have their "30k days" more then once or twice each year.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
6. OF COURSE you do!
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:43 PM
Jan 2015

can't have Obama doing something else great after you have denigrated him so badly!

By the way....,Obamacares is coming in 20% cheaper than anticipated.....according to the CBO...

right????

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
14. I agree with you
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:06 PM
Jan 2015

I think doctors should not be evaluated on how the patient fares because he or she does not control all the factors. It assumes the doctor is solely responsible for making the patient eat right, exercise, or genetic factors. Do I think doctors spend endless money on test to cover their asses because they often they can't even begin to make a proper diagnosis because clinical observation is no longer trusted? Yes.

Do I think it would be better to encourage companies to provide exercise areas and breaks, healthy eating options for lunch like Michelle Obama is doing for schools? I think that people are suffering tremendously from stress and lack of sleep and that directly affects their health. As well as financial difficulties and the inability to find or buy healthy food.

There is a whole host of factors that can be improved, including as you mention, the terrible things that processed and fast food companies can dump in their non-food that is not allowed in most other countries. I am rather skeptical about this proposal.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
83. I'm still waiting to find out
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:41 PM
Jan 2015

Hm, I wonder what LLI really stands for?

"The voices in my head"
"Source of all my bitter rage"
"Long Lost Idiot"
"Lefty Loves Insult"
"Lambasted Lobotomy It"
"I only react with spite"

It's a mystery!

Faryn Balyncd

(5,125 posts)
23. You make good points. And the devil is in the details.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:37 PM
Jan 2015



Measuring value accurately, efficiently and cheaply may be easier said than done.

Another factor that deserves consideration are the possible unintended consequences regarding incentivization if compensation is tied to outcomes.

The incentives to treat patients with multiple medical issues and with uncertain or poor prognoses will change in ways that may not necessarily be in line with our ideals of humane care.

It also sounds like such a system would also continue to increase the amount of resources devoted to attempting to document that a patient has documented issues which result in higher compensation. (That assumes that outcome measurement adequately and accurately takes consideration of sicker patients generally worse prognosis, and increases compensation accordingly, which will be difficult to measure. If this is not the case, (and compensation not adequately increased for such patients, then the clear incentive would be for providers to avoid sick patients, and those with poor social support systems or other factors that worsen their prognosis, like the plaque.

I agree with you that the place to start would be changing incentives so that cognitive skills are more highly paid, with less incentivization of resource-intense tests and procedures. Doing this would improve quality while lowering costs, and would avoid the possibility of perversely altering incentives as above.














Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
5. Some tests are not necessary, as in the case of my father, blood test showed
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:36 PM
Jan 2015

High numbers for bladder cancer, he had already been in a nursing home and from other complications had to be hospitalized. His hospital doctors wanted to do a biopsy"to determine if he really had bladder cancer" which meant putting him to sleep and this isn't good for Alzheimers patients. My mom and sister refused and the doctors insisted, my mom ask what they planned to do if he had bladder cancer and was told nothing. Well, my mom held strong and did not think she wanted him to have the biopsy. This was wrong to subject a patient to these tests.

 

840high

(17,196 posts)
17. Your mother had the option
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:18 PM
Jan 2015

to say "no. As she did. After my breast cancer my oncologist insisted on chemo. I said "no."

madamesilverspurs

(15,798 posts)
7. ...
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:45 PM
Jan 2015

Imagine a scenario in which a doctor notifies an insurance company that his patient requires a surgery that will take 11 hours and cost $100k, but he says that he will take $30k to tell the patient that bed rest will fix the problem. The company takes his offer, the doctor gets paid for doing nothing, and the patient goes home unhelped; the company saves money, the doctor makes more phone calls, the patient suffers.

That did happen, and the medical community worked quietly to move the physician into 'early retirement'; don't know how the various insurance entities were dealt with. Those patients would have preferred to have the scheme blown all over the media and the conspirators put in prison, but it didn't turn out that way.

So I'm thinking that "why" a doctor is paid should factor into "how" he is paid.

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
12. It's Medicare, not for-profit insurance.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:00 PM
Jan 2015

Saving that $70k isn't turned into profit. Makes the incentives a tad different.

Frustratedlady

(16,254 posts)
8. How do you measure value? Not sure about this change.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:46 PM
Jan 2015

By the time Medicare reduces the fee, the doctor doesn't get a great deal as is.

I would imagine a higher number of doctors will refuse Medicare patients. I could be wrong. My doctors rarely spend more than 15 minutes with me unless there is really something serious, then they spend whatever time they need to do a good job. I hope this change doesn't change that situation.

SummerSnow

(12,608 posts)
9. I agree, let me explain myself
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:47 PM
Jan 2015

a few years back one of my doctors use to prescribe me Robitussin for everything and anything that ailed me. I had a cyst and he prescribed me Robitussin. I kid you not.

SummerSnow

(12,608 posts)
86. i didnt, after 2 visits we switched, but it took about 7 days to switch through the insurance co.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 02:05 PM
Jan 2015

I made it a priority with the insurance co due to my daughters health . it would have taken 2 weeks under normal circumstances.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
33. And if one is female, the standard is tell them it's psychomatic, IOW, you are hysterical...
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:49 PM
Jan 2015

Guess he thought Robotussin was a good way to quiet you...

And he sounds like a Quack!



My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
10. How will doctors be stopped from "passing the buck"?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 08:53 PM
Jan 2015

Insurance companies already cherry-pick the healthiest patients, and I don't see what will stop doctors from doing the same thing.

LiberalArkie

(15,703 posts)
20. I personally have Blue Cross and medicare. So yes it is for profit and there is someone else
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:23 PM
Jan 2015

involved besides medicare, and I have Aetna for part D (Prescriptions) that has listed my asthma medication and some others in their book along with the pharmacies in my county. I went to get them filled and Aetna called me before I got out of the building telling me that the pharmacy is no longer in the "network" and the meds are no longer covered. I told them they were in the book. They told me that they change what they cover all the time and the book is just a guide line. I can't change my coverage until the end of the year to someone who covers my drugs, so it is out of my pocket until January.

What fun..

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
21. No, there really isn't. The proposal is for how Medicare pays doctors.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:27 PM
Jan 2015

Supplemental policies such as yours would be negotiated separately between the insurance and the doctor.

My Good Babushka

(2,710 posts)
62. Oh, no one will say anything and it will all look very above board
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 07:35 AM
Jan 2015

but doctors may start 'recommending' other doctors to very sick patients.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
13. After all, they are making more than minimum wage--for India
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:00 PM
Jan 2015

You can't be too cynical, at least, I can't.

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
16. Possible outcome of this new method of payment
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:14 PM
Jan 2015

Doctors cherry-pick patients in order to keep up their score of "healthy" outcomes -- after all, many physicians aren't taking Medicare patients even NOW. The only reason MY general practitioner kept me after I went on Medicare was that I was already a long-term patient. She said she takes no new Medicare patients.

Medicare patients have no other medical care available and become sicker quicker.

The Alan Greyson theory becomes fact -- get sick, die quick.

Medicare saves money, physicians make as much money as they can under the system, and the rich still get as much health care as they want or need, the sick and disabled die sooner and get out of the way. The over arching benefit is to reduce the total population and ensure that the surviving population is healthy enough to work. No useless eaters left.

Hasn't this "master race" thing been done before????

CountAllVotes

(20,867 posts)
19. +1,000
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:23 PM
Jan 2015

I agree! Medicare doctors are becoming fewer and fewer and ones that do accept Medicare are taking no more patients and have closed their practices to them. This is not good!

And where are all of those "Medicare for All" cries now? I hear none.



area51

(11,896 posts)
57. We do need Medicare for all.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 05:13 AM
Jan 2015

But I believe all of us in favor of it know that it needs to be improved to cover a hell of a lot more, and that payments to medical professionals have to be raised.

CountAllVotes

(20,867 posts)
74. What will happen to the disabled?
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 11:33 AM
Jan 2015

Some people that are disabled are on Medicare.

I have PPMS (primary progressive MS). There is nothing that can be done for me. I know this and my doctor knows this.

What are they going to do in a case like this (and I am sure there are many others out there that are on Medicare, totally disabled with a poor/negative prognosis)?

Just go home and die is what I pick-up, and the sooner the better.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
29. Fortunately there would be adjustments for baseline status. You'd get more for treating
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:45 PM
Jan 2015

and helping patients with diabetes, heart disease, etc. The systems have been around for years. Docs have been against it because they can't profit off ordering tests on equipment they own, or results they interpret.

zipplewrath

(16,646 posts)
22. Probably not a good analogy
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:30 PM
Jan 2015

I understand your concern, but if this is anything like similar programs that have been tried, it's not really how it works. Typically each procedure or test or whatever has "effective outcomes". i.e. if a test identifies an intended condition, or a procedure results in "cure". Often these things are measured as much by the number of follow up appointments/procedures. In extreme cases, it gets measured in subsequent hospitals stays/days. The doctor "risks" as much by not doing an appointment as he does doing one.

The danger I see is that patients won't be able to get certain tests or procedures because no doctor will take the "risk". It puts them firmly in control. Right now most doctors will allow you to choose any "reasonable" request, as long as the insurance will cover it. In a new system they may be more resistant. This may or may not be for the better.

Igel

(35,274 posts)
24. Makes doctors into
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:40 PM
Jan 2015

"my brother's warden."

(That's how I interpret "keeper.&quot

That's already happened in many school districts: If a student fails, it doesn't matter--it means the teacher has failed. Teachers are their student's wardens, their custodians. If a student screws up, accountability falls on the teacher. At least it used to be the parent that was responsible for a kid's screw ups. After all, they have the authority to do something about it.

So now they want a doctor to be responsible for forcing his (her) patients to live healthier lives, stick to their prescriptions, seek follow-up care, and follow doctor's recommendations and orders? And, of course, if they manage to compel doctors to do that, politicians will take the credit. It's all about taking credit for what you force other people to do or what you do with their money.

I know: How about we first do that with lawyers and politicians. Lawyers are held responsible for what their clients do. A lawyer gets a client off who goes and kills somebody, it's that lawyer's responsibility. A politician passes a law that doesn't work out, the politician is held completely responsible for it and can be personally sued in a class action suit. A politician's appointee screw's up, it's really that politician's failure and his (her) personal or election finances have to make the electorate whole.

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
64. That in a nut-shell
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 09:57 AM
Jan 2015

Our society hasn't failed, it's the politicians owned by the billionaires that is starting to fail.

Having fun with social media that goes around the status quo electronically really must erk a few of those well heeled folks

Ka hrnt

(308 posts)
25. Another terrible idea...did Arne Duncan come up with this?
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 09:51 PM
Jan 2015

This is the same economist-thinking garbage Arne Duncan has saddled education with--measurement, measurement, measurement. As another posted stated, this is doomed to fail (or produce unintended side-effects) because they're going to judge doctors on outcomes that don't directly control. Same with education, this administration thinks teachers are the main factor in test scores when the research (and common sense) shows they aren't.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
84. ^^This!^^
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jan 2015

This is Race to the Top in an even dumber way. I can't believe people are defending this. Doctors will do what they do now: stop taking Medicare patients.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
95. I know. God forbid we look at the outcomes of people's work
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 12:43 AM
Jan 2015


because they're going to judge doctors on outcomes that don't directly control

Fine. But then that faces the same problem the argument against outcome-based assessment in education does: if you can't actually say person A will reliably have better outcomes than person B, why does it matter who's a doctor/teacher? Just grab somebody to do both for minimum wage, since by your argument it doesn't matter who does it.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
26. Okay. But I think this sounds like education reform with all the testing scores that mean nothing.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:22 PM
Jan 2015

Hopefully I am wrong. But "results tests" are not so great for everyone. Take my disabled daughter. She is NOT going to get much better ever. She has had partially uncontrolled seizures, digestive problems and mental retardation since she was born. It was a miracle that she lived and she has lived 30+ years beyond her original life expectancy but she is now showing her age. We have already found all our miracles for her so how are they going to rate her health care. What we are doing now is maintaining.

I suspect that there are a lot of people who are as good as they are going to get. There will be no more results.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
27. And there would be little motivation for doctors to treat complicated problems
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:42 PM
Jan 2015

just like there is little motivation for teachers to work with the most challenging students.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
34. I would hope so. But as I said - she is never going to get better. She is getting older and we are
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:54 PM
Jan 2015

just helping her to maintain her life as it is.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
39. It's relative. Keeping a person with diabetes healthy is more challenging.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:29 PM
Jan 2015

There are ways to adjust payments for a patient's baseline condition. It's really not difficult, just different. Scares some folks.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
40. It's not nearly as simple as you think. Some people are chronically ill and won't
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:35 PM
Jan 2015

be getting better, but will need constant medical care. I don't see a simple solution that will encourage doctors to want to care for these people.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
43. No, but an endocrinologist might not want to take a patient
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:56 PM
Jan 2015

who has several complicating issues that will make his record look less successful.

Just as some hospitals can look worse statistically because they treat the most sick or injured patients.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
44. They will get severity adjusted payments. There are systems available right now to handle that.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:02 AM
Jan 2015

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
45. The Obama administration wants to "dramatically change" how things are done.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:07 AM
Jan 2015

So we shall see which "systems" they decide to use and how successful they are.

Based on its experience rewarding schools for "excellence," I'm skeptical.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
46. No doubt, anything Obama proposes is designed to screw us. We have the worst
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:13 AM
Jan 2015

healthcare outcomes, at the highest cost, among advanced nations. Our reimbursement system is primarily responsible.

I applaud Obama for trying to change that and overhaul our healthcare system. Unfortunately, even those who have been griping that the ACA is not healthcare reform, can't acknowledge what this proposal will do to improve delivery and outcomes. Obama can't win.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
47. I am not a person who denigrates Obama in general, or the ACA in general.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:15 AM
Jan 2015

But I am skeptical about this particular proposal.

If we're going to change things, I'd rather doctors were paid in salaries, rather than piecemeal.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
48. I think if you read up on reimbursement systems that reward outcomes, you'll feel better about it.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:18 AM
Jan 2015

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
59. In France, I had the impression that the doctors were paid on salaries in some cases.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 05:29 AM
Jan 2015

Frankly, I think we should have universal healthcare and pay doctors salaries based on their patient caseload. They could be paid a part of their income based on the procedure. The outcome of treatment depends too much on the cooperation of the patient. It would not be fair to pay doctors less because a patient does not comply with instructions or take prescriptions.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
58. Too complicated.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 05:26 AM
Jan 2015

The system sounds like something some MBA dreamed up just to try to fool people into thinking he is useful.

Sounds just awful. Some conditions are chronic. Some patients do well. Some don't. The doctor's care is often not the decisive factor.

The idea is ridiculous and unfair. Doctors and hospitals will cherry-pick and will find ways to game the system.

Just pay doctors for their work. Pay teachers for their work. Give doctors and teachers continuing education and tools to improve their work.

Changing the way you pay them is a superficial and distracting way to attack the problems that doctors face. It's counter-productive.

I do not like this idea at all.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
61. I think we better worry about how to change the delivery system to improve outcomes, not
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 06:43 AM
Jan 2015

make the AMA and doctors, happy and rich by ordering more MRIs than necessary and continuing a largely uncoordinated system of healthcare delivery.

pnwmom

(108,955 posts)
38. I think you are asking a very good question that would apply to millions of people,
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:22 PM
Jan 2015

including young disabled people and the very elderly.

Thank you for trying to educate. And good luck and warm wishes for you and your daughter.

cadaverdog

(228 posts)
35. Whenever I read a thread like this I am so happy that
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 10:58 PM
Jan 2015

my wife and I have had coverage through Kaiser-Permanente for over forty years. Now that we are both retired we are in Kaiser's Senior Advantage program, along with Medicare, and so far it's all smooth sailing, now that we have gotten through the reams of paperwork you need to fill out when you retire (hint: make copies of everything).
To those of you who are contemplating changing your coverage in the future, I hope you will take a hard look at what Kaiser has to offer, if indeed they are available in your locale.

Sorry to sound like a commercial, and good health to all.

Skittles

(153,113 posts)
52. when you say make copies of everything
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 02:23 AM
Jan 2015

you mean exactly what, copies of the paperwork you're filling out?

cadaverdog

(228 posts)
75. You will need various documents from your employer and your union,
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jan 2015

along with forms for Social Security and Medicare Part B, attesting to your eligibility for benefits, as well as your company and/or union retirement funds. If you are married and your wife is also near retirement, then everything is times two. If you are still working, check with your employer ahead of your retirement date for information, as well as a Social Security office. If you currently have health insurance you want to contact your plan for information on the Senior Advantage program, and how it works in conjunction with Medicare Part B.
You will be filling out a lot of forms along the way, and I strongly urge you to make copies of everything, since almost certainly something will get lost in the process. The good news is it's all worth the trouble in the end.
Good luck!

BadgerKid

(4,549 posts)
51. Like educational reform goes healthcare.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:42 AM
Jan 2015

Punish the doctors because patients don't follow directions? Because a patient has a genetic anomaly that renders a drug ineffective? Tread carefully, sirs.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
65. Ah, but it looks good to tinker around the edges of a problem rather than
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:10 AM
Jan 2015

face the fact that our 'health care' system is a bloated, expensive mess that simply shovels money to insurance companies and other private entities. Its prime motivation is to hoover up money, not tend to the health of the citizens.

Blackjackdavey

(178 posts)
68. Nope
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:35 AM
Jan 2015

It is the industry standard. The administration is merely keeping pace with the industry standard as clinics and hospitals are WELL UNDER WAY toward transitioning to an outcomes based reimbursement scheme. This is the way all healthcare reimbursement will be done in the next two years. If you don't think it's a good idea perhaps you could thank the administration for bringing it to your attention because if you have private insurance, they are already well on their way toward doing it this way and likely will be before medicare even gets started.

McCamy Taylor

(19,240 posts)
54. An ice floe would kinder and more honest. "Sick" and poor Medicare patients will not be able
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 04:45 AM
Jan 2015

to find providers, because no provider will want to be penalized for not miraculously curing their incurable conditions and turning them into "well" patients. Urban minority seniors will be especially hard hit as hospitals relocate to wealthier and healthier communities. Boutique hospitals that cater to rich, healthy seniors will be rewarded.

Herself

(185 posts)
60. this isn't going to help.Doctors already cherry pick who they will diagnose
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 05:54 AM
Jan 2015

and treating conditions..

They will protect their "report card" at any costs, including your health, and life if need be.

Patients are taking the brunt of the fight between insurance, doctors, hospitals and govt

Blackjackdavey

(178 posts)
66. Everyone is doing it!
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:31 AM
Jan 2015

As someone in the healthcare industry, in upstate New York, I just wanted to jump in and point out that this proposal is hardly groundbreaking or unique to medicare. I have attended numerous seminars over the past year, and more to come, on this issue alone as it will become the industry standard over the next two years. All insurance reimbursement will be tied to outcomes. The benchmarks are generally simple and for the examples given above it will generally be something like measuring avoidable return visits for the same problem within a limited timeframe -- so doctors won't be penalized for routine treatment of chronic conditions. This follows the same model that is being implemented for hospital care in general.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
67. How about focusing those standards on the Pharma Industry instead?
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:32 AM
Jan 2015

Maybe if drug prices where tied to how they improved patients lives, then that I could get onboard with.

cynzke

(1,254 posts)
69. This Can Be a Blessing And/Or
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:38 AM
Jan 2015

A curse. Compensation should be based on the quality of service, but not at the expense of quantity. A doctor should not have to sacrifice one for the other. Medicare should encourage both. As long as the quality is good, the doctor should not be restricted on the quantity of service provided. Most doctors feel they are not compensated enough as it is, this could make it worse if there are not enough incentives provided. The major complaint seems to be that there are not enough doctors that accept Medicare in the first place. The compensation should be tiered in a way that increasingly rewards the doctors who provide quality care, without sacrificing the overall pool of doctors available to Medicare patients, which is already smaller than necessary. Better compensation will bring better doctors, expand the pool, and then start weeding out the doctors who are milking the system by quantity and shortcutting the quality. I think both could be accomplished, depending on the quality with which Medicare formulates a plan. This is where it could be a blessing or a curse.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
71. an excellent idea-many who are on Medicare and Medicaid do NOT receive the best care
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 10:54 AM
Jan 2015

Some Doctors have set-up 'volume businesses' where they can grab much more in Gov. medicare/medicade federal money.

mopinko

(70,021 posts)
73. i think it is about time we used all the data locked up in the medicare system.
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 11:07 AM
Jan 2015

broad data on outcomes of various procedures can only add to our knowledge. grifters will be easily spotted. i think that would be the main point.

the aca's provision to ding hospitals w high readmission rates is an example of how this sort of data can benefit patients.

i could be worried about this, but i have no doubt that push back from docs, and compromise that will follow, will keep this fair.

as it stands, data in the medicare system is impervious to analysis. that is a waste of human life and money.

Aristus

(66,293 posts)
78. As a Physician Assistant practicing clinical medicine in the primary care setting,
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:10 PM
Jan 2015

I think getting rid of fee-for-service is a good idea. Driving down the exorbitant costs of medical care will require a number of changes to the way we practice and pay for medical care, to say nothing of the way we train and educate clinical practitioners. And eliminating fee-for-service should be one of them.

The health service organization I work for pays its medical providers a salary. I earn just as much on a slow day (like today, come to think of it) as I do on a day when I have to visit with 26 patients. Focusing on clinical outcomes is my primary concern, not how much I'm getting paid for every lab test I order.

More and more independent practitioners are selling out to major hospital groups and taking positions as salaried providers. And I think that's good. Let someone else worry about how the square-footage and the electricity is going to be paid for, and have the provider concentrate on providing good medicine with positive clinical outcomes.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
81. My husband was a physician
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:24 PM
Jan 2015

He never based care on how much he would be reimbursed. It is the docs we knew who sold their practices to the big hospital corporations here that complained how they were leaned on to see more patients spending less time to bring in the bucks. They were without exception sorry they had given up their autonomy and ability to give the kind of care they were used to giving. Perhaps it is a different experience depending on location.

Aristus

(66,293 posts)
82. Undoubtedly. There are so many variables in the practice of medicine that there can't be
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:31 PM
Jan 2015

one panacea solution to the problem. And corporations piling unacceptable numbers of patient visits for providers is another form of the problem of expensive and ineffective medical care. For for-profit corporations, revenue expectations go beyond overhead into the realm of gross profit; as much of it as their investors demand. And that's bad for everybody except the investors; unless of course they seek the same level of medical care as they expect their overworked providers to offer.

RobinA

(9,886 posts)
80. So This Would Mean
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 01:19 PM
Jan 2015

that not only will Medicare get to tell doctors how to practice (which they already do) but also tell them the patient has to get better doing it that way or else. Sounds like a recipe to make medicine even more manualized than it is already. Which is good, I guess, because who the hell is going to put the time, effort and money into medical school for the privilege of becoming a Medicare/insurance company flunky.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
89. Are you in the medical field?
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 04:24 PM
Jan 2015

Gosh, the practice of medicine is as much art as science. No two people are alike and it takes skill to find the best treatment for that particular person. One size does not fit all. I am not against standards but there has to be room to treat people as individuals.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
90. There are definitely "best practices" for most situations. Unfortunately, some docs don't
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 04:57 PM
Jan 2015

really know what they are doing, especially with serious diseases. Marcus Welby really doesn't exist anymore.

Since you asked: I'm not a clinician, but I have plenty of experience -- government health/welfare agencies, working for medical associations (doctors' unions that protect their kingdom, at all costs), university research organizations. etc.

Fact is, the USA gets less for our healthcare expenditures than any advanced country in terms of outcomes and cost. If we don't change the current model that encourages doctors to practice in an uncoordinated, inefficient vacuum; order as many tests as possible; etc., none of us will have decent healthcare down the road, even if we increase taxes and reduce the military budget to zero.

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
91. I guess it is what lens you see through
Tue Jan 27, 2015, 11:50 PM
Jan 2015

My husband could have been Dr Welby. He saw people for free, he made house calls, paid for meds and diagnostic tests for patients who could not afford it,..he cared about all his people. Almost all the family practice docs I know are prettu much like that so I have a different view. I do know many specialists that fit your description though.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
101. There are worse practices too. Doctors aren't always up-to-date, and often treat patients that
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:07 PM
Jan 2015

would be better handled by specialists. More importantly, they don't do a very good job of coordinating care.

Here's an example of what folks who specialize in "sick" patients can do to improve/maintain their health status: A 58-year-old with diabetes, heart disease and Parkinson’s, relies on an special case manager to call him every month to check on how he’s doing and help him get the right care from his array of specialists. According to the patient, she’s been very instrumental in pointing him in the right direction and sees her as “a kind of glue” because she saw him as a whole patient.

You can laugh all you want, but our current system needs to focus on outcomes, not the volume of junk performed under a reimbursement system that rewards volume, not outcomes.

CTyankee

(63,892 posts)
99. Is this proposal as simplistic as that?
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 02:35 PM
Jan 2015

I'm not seeing anything that makes me think this proposal will not be nuanced and treat patients as individuals...

Mojorabbit

(16,020 posts)
102. Medicine is already halfway there
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 03:13 PM
Jan 2015

I can't count the number of times my husband used to have to wrangle with insurance companies so that he could prescribe a med for a condition. I remember him hollering to one on the phone, "what med DO you cover for this condition". I know I have to jump through hoops to get the medication I take for MS as the insurance company wants me to be on something cheaper that does not work for me. I do not foresee any nuance as formularies are tightened down and people are pigeonholed into predetermined algorithms for particular conditions. I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Time will tell.

CTyankee

(63,892 posts)
103. It is in the best interests of the insurance companies to make a profit.
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 04:04 PM
Jan 2015

We cannot underestimate that essential fact. It is why every other advanced nation has universal health care for its citizens and treats it as a right. And it is why those systems, esp. ones in Western Europe, have better outcomes and lower costs. Every citizen is served. It is why none of the citizens of those nations want our for profit health care system, preferring the higher taxes they pay in exchange for an equitable and fairer way to provide health care.

 

fxstc

(41 posts)
104. like so many great ideas, there are unintended consequences
Wed Jan 28, 2015, 05:06 PM
Jan 2015

The end result will be doctors only taking on healthy patients, and in the end the really sick will get screwed even more.
Seriously the government needs to focus on things they are already tasked with and quit trying to fix everything and ending
up ruining everything.

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